Has anyone here heard the saying "don't count your chickens before they've hatched"?

Kairoptra·Nov 25, 2017·29 votes·2,103 views

Because it sure doesn't seem like it.

Can we please stop freaking out about the lore updates currently on PBE? On a post made about Varus' lore update, a Rioter commented that major context was needed for the bio, and to wait for the full story. It's the same exact thing as with Viktor's update; it appeared one way, but upon reading the full bio it was actually really good. I'm not saying that the lore updates will be good, but we need to reserve judgment until we are in an appropriate position to do otherwise.

79 Comments

Chromatic EagleNov 26, 201724 votes

To be fair, if people are repeatedly worried about their favorite characters’ stories based on brief paragraphs, then maybe Riot should rethink how they’re writing them.

KairoptraNov 26, 20179 votes

Valid point, not gonna argue there. People still need to chill, though.

Darrosh JewfistNov 26, 201715 votes

I think, on the other hand, there is the very well-known phrase: "don't ignore the warning signs".

It's pretty common for media (Justice League film probably the most recent example) where it was clear from the trailers/leaks/interviews/and backstage gossip, the studio's past movies (BvS and Man of Steel) that the film was probably going to be a shitfesta. Turns out it was generally a shitfesta.

I mean, yeah, you can be hope the new stuff will be good but it comes off a naive and hopeless optimistic.

It happens a lot in fandoms, (Warhammer/Blizzard/Final Fantasy) where fans become divided on those who are optimistic to the point of insanity and those who criticize the product. Both feel they're supporting the company/franchise in their own way (one by blindly trust, the other by pointing out flaws and giving harsh feedback).

KairoptraNov 26, 20176 votes

Except that Riot doesn’t have that reputation. Riot isn’t known for ruining full-blown bios. Again, look back at Viktor. From Jayce’s bio, we thought he was just some psycho bent on world domination through machinery. But with Viktor’s bio, we realized that he actually wasn’t too bad a person and that his views were rooted in his desire to help people.

It’s not that I’m being optimistic; it’s that I’m reserving judgement.

The SoulforgedNov 26, 20179 votes

But they do ruin full bios. Like Janna.

KairoptraNov 26, 20176 votes

I would like to say that I have heard very few complaints directed toward lore updates (save for Pantheon and Galio) and that I commented unaware of any reputation Riot may have developed.

If I may give some insight into her lore update, I too was taken aback by the fact that she went from some girl raised in the gutter who made it on her magic to some deity who relies on the faith of her followers to remain alive. However, my personal view on lore is that (and you're free to disagree with me on this; I completely understand if you do and will by no means force you to conform) as long as the character's current state stays the same or better yet becomes more fleshed-out, I'm satisfied.

What I mean by this is that as long as the character we currently see is pretty much the same person, they are free to do what they wish with their backstory to an extent. Janna may be something altogether different in terms of story, but she remains what she always was: A kind and gentle soul who will do anything to help the destitute. As long as she remains that way, I'm fine with whatever road she takes to get there (within reason). It's not that I don't care about her story; it's just that as long as it's interesting and has the same resulting character.

You are free to disagree with me on that notion, and I understand why you would. You are more than entitled to your opinion in this case.

Beyond LegendsNov 26, 20172 votes

Janna thematic made no sense as zuanite or even piltover champion.

Also I still see no mentioning of how old Warwick personality was completely “deleted” in the new lore. He went from a evil greedy hunter to poor soul who was caught in singed insane experiments.

KairoptraNov 26, 20172 votes

I was unaware that there was a large complaint about Warwick. I understand why though.

I, too, was a little disappointed that they removed his more evil aspects. However, the way they maintained and expanded upon his internal struggle of trying to hold to his humanity keeps me from hating it, even if they did take a new perspective on it.

Also, why wouldn’t it make sense for Janna to be Zaunite? Her character has always been someone who does everything in her power to help those in need, and few are more in need than the lost children of Zaun.

LeetriNov 26, 20171 votes

In the new lore Warwick used to be a terrible human being who did a lot of awful things. He tried to move on, but he could never escape his past. Not exactly just a poor soul.

FairyfleurNov 26, 20174 votes

I really like Janna's, were there really that many complaints about it?

Chromatic EagleNov 26, 20173 votes

I don’t consider Janna ruined. Xerath on the other hand…

Darrosh JewfistNov 26, 20175 votes

Except that Riot doesn’t have that reputation. Riot isn’t known for ruining full-blown bios.

This is where a lot of people will strongly disagree with you. I'm not going to argue that they're correct, but others do not hold the same positive opinion about some of Riot's lore reworks as you do.

Warlord DienekesNov 26, 20176 votes

I am still pissed about Pantheon's lore. To a lesser extent Poppy and Trundle.

KairoptraNov 26, 20171 votes

I would like to say that I have heard very few complaints directed toward lore updates (save for Pantheon and Galio) and that I commented unaware of any reputation Riot may have developed.

Warlord DienekesNov 26, 20172 votes

I will say that 8-9 times out of 10 their lore updates are improvements. Their best is still Bilgewater. But, every once in awhile they'll update a champion and seem to completely miss the damn point of the original.

Viktor just got lucky. They originally gave a teaser for the direction they were planning to take his lore with the original Jayce release. It was horseshit. All the Viktor fans got together to let Riot know it was horseshit. Even non-Viktor fans like me could tell it was horseshit. So, when Riot did the full rewrite they had a good 4 or 5 years to write something that fit Viktor's fans view of the character.

The truth of the matter is, fans of a character are usually pretty relaxed about it right up until something new happens, good or bad. And for the majority of the cast, the lore has been stagnant for years. People won't make it known what's important about a character, until Riot completely misses the point. Then they show up.

Unless that champion has a spokesman. Like, Malicious Metal with Mordekaiser. That man has been giving Riot a crystal clear view of what it means to be a Mordekaiser fan for years now. I don't think anyone paying even half an iota of attention to him can screw up the Morde lore rewrite.

Beyond LegendsNov 26, 20174 votes

Did Riot miss the point of the original viktor or did the fans miss riot original intension for viktor? Also I fail to see how that inccident is in anyways relavant to modern day riot narrative team. Even then you can't hardly call that original viktor an “update”, it was a continuation of Viktor story that riot wanted for the character. Obviously it was bad, but much of the old lore was garbage with zero or little consistency.

I'm not exactly sure what Malicious Metal effect was mordekaiser is, but I'm confuse on why you seem to imply Morde didn't already get a rewrite? Old master of metal morde was less edgy then his current lord of death I mean iron revonant self. In fact I havn't seem much post lamanting the lost of morde old charaterization at all.

An Undead bratNov 26, 20172 votes

They don't? The Targon event was a massive failure, they took all these three-dimensional characters with an inner conflict and butchered them. Some say Pantheon was the worst, I personally think Leona was worst, but they are all ruined nevertheless.

Beyond LegendsNov 26, 20176 votes

Three dimensional character in old targon? Oh I can get being salty about the targon change, but don't fucking pretend there was any depth in old targon. I will laugh at anyone who pretend old Leona was was ever a deep character, she epitomized the genric dnd palandin sterotype. Pretending she was any more than that is delusional.

An Undead bratNov 26, 20173 votes

Well then you are stupid or you didn't read the lore.

Old Leona was supposed to kill a child she's beaten in a fight, but she refused and they were about to execute her for that. Like Diana, she stood against the tradition and fanatic Solari, but unlike her she still did not swap the side, with the help of the Sun she reformed people's thinking, creating a parallel with Martin Luther. Shows the sad truth of reality that people are willing to accept different opinions within the same opinion side of a problem for a good enough reason, but not the opposite opinion for an equally good reason. Showed potential to build on Leona's understanding for Diana for these reason, but the new lore just took all the human aspects of the Aspects away.

So in the end you may laugh at anyone who claims so, but you'll just look like a complete moron because you can't read between the lines or because you're shitting on something you didn't read - not sure which one is worse.

WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOONov 26, 20176 votes

Old Targon

Leona didn’t stand against the Solari, they rescued her from execution by the Rakkor

In the old Targon Diana was a fanatic villain and that is he beginning and end of her development.

Pantheon was possibly the most shallow.

Sraeg2013Nov 26, 20171 votes

In the old Targon Diana was a fanatic villain

Because she killed a bunch of old guys who sentenced her to death for having a different opinion?

I mean, it's certainly better than being controlled by a parasite who felt threatened.

and that is he beginning and end of her development.

That isn't an argument.

Beyond LegendsNov 26, 20171 votes

Oh yeah, the solari may have been dicks for sure. But we all have seen how most religion treat other religions. Killing a bunch of them just made diana just as bad as the solaris.

Plz the aspect were better than the complete random deusvex machina that was the moon and sun in the old lore.

Sraeg2013Nov 26, 20171 votes

Yes, yes. Because space parasite granting god-like powers and outright controlling their hosts is better and definitely not a deus ex machina.

Please, I've been through this discussion before.

Beyond LegendsNov 26, 20171 votes

You still don't understand what a deus ex machina is. So once again being a god like entity isn't the same as being sudden cheap abrupt plot device that ends all conflicts.

Being down this argument doesn't mean you're right. You as blind and ignorant as the solari

Sraeg2013Nov 26, 20171 votes

So once again being a god like entity isn't the same as being sudden cheap abrupt plot device that ends all conflicts.

You should check what's "deus" in "deus ex machina" stands for.

Beyond LegendsNov 26, 20171 votes

And you should check what the modern definition of the term is.

Sraeg2013Nov 26, 20171 votes

How about reading the ENTIRE definition not just parts that support your argument?

ModAcademy KaynNov 26, 20172 votes

In terms of story writing, the term "Deus ex Machina", is not used in it's literal definiton, but as jargon for the trope in a story. The definition is not important, the Trope that we have labeled "deus ex Machina" is though.

Hell, the reason it's called "deus ex machina" was back in Greek times, because when they wanted to portray a god, they would lower the actor on a crane, who would then normally solve some problem in the plot.

Well, yes, the term of God is used, the trope is not limited to "Gods" only. It can apply to any convenient spontaneous solution thrown into a story. Point being, you're still wrong with your use of the term. (at least in the way that you're phrasing it, your intention may be different)

Beyond LegendsNov 26, 20172 votes

You serious? I read the old lore and that's the reason why I can say her character development was shallow as freak. Her character showed no actual character devlopment from start to finish. She was born a generic matyr and ended up as a heneric matyr with sun powers

Read between the lines? Don't be absurd, Leona didn't even showed up or was menention in Diana lore, despite being literally the second coming of jesus christ for the solaris.

Sraeg2013Nov 26, 20171 votes

It seems you don't understand, but have you EVER considered "what if" Riot wouldn't flat out nuke the old lore and expand upon it instead?

Because it surely looks you haven't.

Beyond LegendsNov 26, 20171 votes

No, because riot is ret-conning or reinmagining the the entire league. I don't consider it because “nuking it” is par for the course of a ret con and quite frankly people are 3 fucking years too late to make that argument.

Also they nuked old feljord, shurima, and shadow isle, where's the salty tears for removal of those? Old targon was just as bad those areas so it had to go

Sraeg2013Nov 26, 20171 votes

and quite frankly people are 3 fucking years too late to make that argument.

Oh, my sides.

We've been there THE ENTIRE TIME, not just today.

Beyond LegendsNov 26, 20171 votes

Go cry in corner then because the ret con is happening in full swing. Old lore was shit, and anyone who tries to defend that mess has clearly not read the lore.

Sraeg2013Nov 26, 20171 votes

I'm sure you'd consider the new lore shit as well if it was left to rot after one story for each champion.

Beyond LegendsNov 26, 20171 votes

Lol your acting as if most champion in the old lore has more than one story.

Sraeg2013Nov 27, 20171 votes

I see the point went right by you.

Old lore was started and nobody cared to do shit about it after JoJ was discontinued.

That is: it wasn't even given a chance to grow and become good.

Beyond LegendsNov 27, 20171 votes

Majority of JoJ was bad and they already ruined their best storyline by having the resolving the entire kalamanda inccident ala deus ex machina via zileans bard ult.

The old lore had a chane and it failed miserably. I'd rather take burning tide and bloodline rather then poorly thought out stories.

I didn't miss any point, you're just delusional in pretending that mess could be salavaged.

Sraeg2013Nov 27, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beyond Legends,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=PANQuRGr,comment-id=00020000000300000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-27T21:21:18.400+0000)

Majority of JoJ was bad and they already ruined their best storyline by having the resolving the entire kalamanda inccident ala deus ex machina via zileans bard ult.

The old lore had a chane and it failed miserably. I'd rather take burning tide and bloodline rather then poorly thought out stories.

I didn't miss any point, you're just delusional in pretending that mess could be salavaged.

Not even an attempt was made.

Not even for stories or even characteristics that required next to no changes to work in the "new" lore.

Of course, thanks to removing constraints of the old lore, we have detached, highly polished turds like Aurelion Sol's existence, who'd never become a thing in the old lore and for a good reason.

Warlord DienekesNov 26, 20179 votes

Doesn’t “don’t count your chickens before they hatch” mean don’t rely on good things happening?

So, wouldn’t that phrase more describe everyone claiming that the full lore will fix everything. Because they are literally basing their belief on a good thing that hasn’t happened yet.

Anyone know a phrase about not focusing on negative things that haven’t happened yet?

LeetriNov 26, 20171 votes

Nah, it means you shouldn't count on something before it happens. Counting your chickens before they hatch is buying an expensive car because you might get a promotion at work tomorrow.

Sraeg2013Nov 26, 20171 votes

That's what he said.

WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOONov 26, 20172 votes

Don’t trouble trouble till trouble troubles you

GenoXxNov 26, 20173 votes

The thing is, and while i did not freak out, is that that's their general idea for the upcoming lores for those champions. If they indeed have change them based on what we saw in pbe(and Riot is known for it) then i feel like i can't blame people getting mad over it.

You can't just change a characters background that many players really like. To the point where it's not even similar to the character that was introduced. I haven't read them yet, as they are "place holders," but if the lore that that one Rioter promise is coming soon faintly relates to what they saw on pbe, then people have all the right to get mad about it. I kinda gave up on Riot delivering reeling in lore for the coming future.

They still love to toy around with what many players what to get to the bottom of. And they continue to do so. The one Rioter who worked on Zoe's lore even tends to disregard any type of criticism towards her. Meaning Riot still has that we know better mentality.

KairoptraNov 26, 20173 votes

You’re missing the point; we have so little actual knowledge that we can’t say for certain one way or the other. Yes, people have a right to be concerned, but it is far from necessary to immediately get riled up over it. The only thing we can and should do is wait and see.

WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOONov 26, 20173 votes

People will have their own opinions about things. Most only get upset when their main or one of their preferred characters is up for change, the lore moves on though.

KairoptraNov 26, 20171 votes

I'm not against people having their opinions; only that they wait to have the whole picture before forming them.

Lady FacelessNov 26, 20172 votes

While I do agree not to freak out before I have the whole lore, I hate how one part of the boards is acting like our concern aren't justified.

In the most part the retcon and the new lore has been amazing. I love Bilgewater, Piltover/Zhaun has been fantastic, Demacia has an actual place in the world and I don't have anything against the direction with Shurima. But the Targon lore is still, even after the whole new information and artwork, a goddamit mess.

"But Pantheon, Leona and Diana didn't had any character to start with!111!" They had however some arch types, which could have easily been fleshed out. In a world, where we have so much violance and death, I would love reading about someone who prefers to go for a more peaceful route. I mean, just look at the amount of tragic and edgy champions. But no, Leona couldn't be a good person, goddamit. Pantheon's new lore gave us an actual character, we finally could care about ... only to kill him off. I have no idea who Pantheon is and why I should care about him. Diana was a tragic figure, which took the matters in her own hand to find the truth. The new one? None of her action matters anymore, since it wasn't Diana who did them. It was her Aspect. We know nothing about the Aspects, since Mt. Targon has to be "mysterious". Leona, Pantheon and Diana were boring? Fine, but tell me why would anyone care about a character, who is basically only the puppet of some higher deity, which the majority hates?

People are freaking out, since they can't be sure if the narrator team won't change their favorite character into a non-recognizable mess. And the narrator team doesn't even care, if people hates or not. I play this game since March 2013 and I can't recall any instance then the narrator team actually changed something 'cause the community hated it. Yes, we shouldn't judge a book by it cover, but we still have no certainty if you will care about their main, after the narrator team finished their lore.

People are overreaction, but unfortunately their concern ARE justified.

Whyte LyonNov 26, 20171 votes

[deleted]

KairoptraNov 26, 20171 votes

Volibear is my secondary behind Vel'Koz, and I'm not mad about the lore changes whatsoever. This is not because I necessarily approve of what changes have been made, but because I don't have the full picture. It's not that I like the change, but I don't not like it, if that makes sense.

Whyte LyonNov 26, 20172 votes

Yeah sorry I deleted that comment cause I felt like it implied I was against the Voli changes, when it's the opposite. I wanted to reword it but couldn't find the right message so I gave up, sorry about that.

I will say this instead. Jumping the gun has never been objective criticism, it's blatantly subjective if not biased. But bubble wrapping a dated character even if it's the safe option is not as compelling and if a character is to be rebooted then do so, I would hate to see narrative ever cop out and god forbid that having expectations be broken is not inherently a negative thing. If that boxes me into the insufferably optimistic group then fuck it I'm as blind as a bat.

However, as I might consider myself amid all the other committed lore fans, I don't really have one single champ to get obsessive over. Which is probably why when a dated character's lore is changed I'm either really happy to roll with it or less likely, indifferent. Yet in turn will (privately or publicly) scoff over anyone who might be diggin' their heels in.