@Kindlejack Whatever happened to the Full Metal Skin line?

D2Vincent·Jan 25, 2017·6 votes·11,330 views

So I was lurking through the Red Tracker when I came across a thread which had quite a bit of commentation from Kindlejack despite the thread itself having almost 30 downvotes (rip), and I was reading about the creation/development of the Battlecast skin line as well as some of the older tech skin lines. I was mostly curious about the lack of inclusion of the Full Metal line of skins. Just curious if you guys were still going somewhere with that skin line considering it's Jayce's answer to Viktor's fully completed "Glorious Evolution", and it seems kinda weird how story-wise it's kinda one sided. >.>

Also because I'm still working on this Full Metal Karthus concept of mine since I'm running out of robot themes to try to put him into XD

40 Comments

RiotKindlejackJan 25, 20174 votes

Full Metal Jayce harkens back to a time before there were really stories or thematic lines for skins. If you see the concept for that skin it's really different and wasn't made to be part of anything; a sort of Art Deco Rocketeer type design that wouldn't look out of place in Bioshock Infinite. I always thought it was a nod to Samus Aran until I saw that concept. Full Metal Rammus is a robo-rammus that would have most likely been designed as a Mecha skin today. And Pantheon well, he kinda looks like he's post-apocalyptic wearing armour made from steel scraps rather than some kind of robotic suit.

I guess, as we do when we're looking back at old themes, the first question would be 'what is it' and the second would be 'what does it offer players that is different to the plethora of tech skin thematics we currently have'. I think those would be really interesting questions for you to tackle along with the visual design of Full Metal Karthus. The longer I work as a concept artist the more I realise there is to this job beyond drawing cool stuff.

Looking forward to it!

VierJan 25, 20172 votes

Hey, I spent a lot of time and effort writing a thread about my concerns with the quality of skins and pricing.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/f29e90v6-headhunter-caitlyn-verses-lunar-wraith-caitlyn-skin-pricing-inconsistency-and-favouritism

It really sucks when you are answering other fellow players (good for them! Yay!) but not me, especially when the things I mention are serious.

Elite4RunnerJan 25, 20171 votes

It would be impossible for Riot employees to address every person who has a serious comment. I've posted several things that I would really like an official response to, but I can understand that it is not always possible.

Also, you have to keep in mind that the words of any Riot employee is often (If not always) taken as the official voice of Riot as a company. They have to be careful about what they say, and how they say it.

I am sure that there are times when they see a post and genuinely want to respond, but are hesitant, or even incapable of doing so.

VierJan 25, 20171 votes

I guess you are right. Sorry for my foolishness. I was just hoping for a comment such as "I have seen this and can't say anything, but just want you to know I've seen it"

My bad.

Elite4RunnerJan 25, 20171 votes

Lol sure, it would be nice to at least be acknowledged, but I don't know that it would make anyone feel any better.

It would almost make me feel like they simply didn't find my post worth a response.

Maybe if the board would show something like a 'Red Upvote' ... ?

RiotKindlejackJan 25, 20175 votes

Hey Krawia thanks, I read your post. I bet a lot of Rioters did. We read a lot more than we can possibly reply to. For example I read through S@20 and Reddit all the time but don't usually reply there.

The other reason is as a general rule we reply when we have relevant expertise to have a conversation on the subject. This is why a lot of Rioters enjoy jumping into Memes and Games, but if they work in talent or network systems then they can't really share insight on gameplay balance etc. I don't have a lot to really say about eCommerce being a concept artist that could be helpful. We try to create the best skins we can with the time available to us, but we aren't involved with pricing beyond letting them know if it feels good or not as players.

I'd also recommend that you pose some kind of question towards the end of your post to invite discussion - as it stands I nod my head and click next having gained a valuable insight into how you're feeling but with no organic way to enter into a conversation.

VierJan 25, 20172 votes

Thanks for the reply :)

I guess my bad on not really making it a conversational thread, but I just want my feedback and experience to be sent to the individuals that are relevant regarding it.

Speaking of which is there any plans to update Lunar Wraith Caitlyn or reduce her price? (Don't reply if you are unable to/can't/don't feel like it)

RiotKindlejackJan 25, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Thanks for the reply :)

I guess my bad on not really making it a conversational thread, but I just want my feedback and experience to be sent to the individuals that are relevant regarding it.

Speaking of which is there any plans to update Lunar Wraith Caitlyn or reduce her price? (Don't reply if you are unable to/can't/don't feel like it)

There's no plans right now. However I do agree that particularly the Ult indicator just being recoloured feels very unsatisfying. When we launched a new Draven skin, because QA has to retest every previous Draven skin, I was able to go back and add unique Q decals to his older skins. I'm hoping there'll be an opportunity to at least improve that ult indicator when we do another Caitlyn skin.

ShaolinToiletJan 25, 20171 votes

Who controls the pricing for skins at riot?

VierJan 25, 20171 votes

This makes me really happy! Thank you so much. Even if it never gets changed your reply has more than satisfied me.

Elite4RunnerJan 25, 20171 votes

I'm jelly lol

That's okay. A lot of the posts that I really want a comment on are champion concepts. I haven't done any in a while, but I make a lot of other posts that are just random build / balance thoughts. .. and the occasional rant.

NeameanJan 25, 20171 votes

Speaking of Draven , his Draven Draven skin is lacking a axe catching decal.

RiotKindlejackJan 26, 20171 votes

He has the Decal Decal, it's like the normal decal but with a bigger head!

Sexy Jack RabbitJan 28, 20171 votes

Kindle with the way you word that, you say;

"I'm hoping there'll be an opportunity to **at least **improve that ult indicator"

By saying that it sounds like if you had the chance, you would change more of the skin then just the ult-indicator or am I just reading too much into it?

patmax17Jan 25, 20172 votes

This makes a lot of sense.

What would you say are the possibilities for the Full Metal line? As lined out in the other thread, we already have a number of mecha/futuristic modern skin lines, and the thematic space is getting more and more narrow. If you decided that these skins don't make sense anymore, what could you do? Would it make sense to just rename the skins, maybe polishing them up a bit (maybe as part of a future visual update)? Idk, making Full Metal Rammus into Mecha Rammus, FM Jayce into Super Galaxy Jayce and Pantheon into Apocalypse Panth? (just guessing from the top of my head here)

I also want to say that I always liked FM Jayce a lot (I don't play him but it's one of my favourite skins in the game), because it's just a straight power suit, without being cartoony like Super Galaxy and without the cyberpunk vibe the Project skins are. It would make me sad to see it changed to match those other skin lines, so maybe the above idea isn't really a solution...? I'd really like to see the same FM teme applied to a number of other champs too, especially Vi and Cait :D

RiotKindlejackJan 25, 20172 votes

{quoted}

This makes a lot of sense.

What would you say are the possibilities for the Full Metal line? As lined out in the other thread, we already have a number of mecha/futuristic modern skin lines, and the thematic space is getting more and more narrow. If you decided that these skins don't make sense anymore, what could you do? Would it make sense to just rename the skins, maybe polishing them up a bit (maybe as part of a future visual update)? Idk, making Full Metal Rammus into Mecha Rammus, FM Jayce into Super Galaxy Jayce and Pantheon into Apocalypse Panth? (just guessing from the top of my head here)

I also want to say that I always liked FM Jayce a lot (I don't play him but it's one of my favourite skins in the game), because it's just a straight power suit, without being cartoony like Super Galaxy and without the cyberpunk vibe the Project skins are. It would make me sad to see it changed to match those other skin lines, so maybe the above idea isn't really a solution...? I'd really like to see the same FM teme applied to a number of other champs too, especially Vi and Cait :D

I know Champion Update think carefully about these things when updating skins. If we have data to suggest that something like Undertaker Yorick fitting into the Gothic Horror line won't upset Yorick players then we'll do it. However if the tone or the reason people buy a skin is distinct we wouldn't do that. Full Metal might be something we do or don't revisit in future skins, but it's definitely it's own thing and we wouldn't change it as radically as mecha etc. I think if we reworked Vi, Neon Strike might become Super Galaxy but mostly in name not changing the design much.

Right now they're having that conversation about Commando Galio. In my opinion Commando has a 80's action tone that is a little different from something as straight-laced as Special Forces or Arctic Ops, but how valuable is that for players? It's a tough one.

Other Piltover champs getting full metal skins like Jayce makes sense. But then what about Pantheon and Rammus? Rammus actually does seem like Mecha, or Sad Robot Amumu, while Pantheon is almost a Road Warrior skin. These are the things that keep me awake at night!

LostFr0stJan 25, 20173 votes

I bundle Sad robot Amumu with the Hextech skins in my headcannon for some reason. He's "softer" than the mecha skins.

RiotKindlejackJan 26, 20174 votes

That makes sense. He would look really cool as maybe Zaun Chemtech if we reworked him.

Rude NameJan 26, 20172 votes

May I leave my two cents? I love the Full Metal line, and reading all this really has made me adore it even more.

In my eyes, there's sides to these robotic skin lines.

Mecha is a creation of Heimerdinger/Rumble/Ziggs. They're the giant hulking beasts, meant to intimidate and threaten, following through if need be.

Battlecast, as is canon, is Viktor's creation. The apocolyptic diesel death machines made to kill as much as possible as quickly as possible.

I like to see Full Metal as Jayce's creation. Not all of them are actually robots, but more like freedom fighters. If there's a war going on, they're on freedom's side.

Reminds me of Rogue One: The brave, oriented leader (Jyn/Jayce), the steadfast robot protector (K2SO/Rammus), and the slightly mislead but still good soldier (Cassian/Pantheon). Oh, and they're all wearing home made Iron Man suits.

*Just saying, the rest of the cast is pretty obvious. * Full Metal Lee Sin, Caitlyn, and Corki as the blind monk, the gun-toting protector, and the crazy pilot

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is, I like how the Full Metal theme is a more rag tag group of heroes fighting for freedom in a mech-ruled world. Think: The Matrix. I'd say that thematic hasn't been filled yet.

P.S What would you definitively say is the Mech theme so far? Mecha, Battlecast, Full Metal? What about Program and Super Galaxy?

RiotKindlejackJan 28, 20175 votes

Wow this is awesome! If we come back to Full Metal in the future I think this is a great starting point and I love how it brings these disparate elements together in a way that makes sense.

If you mean the quintessential Mecha theme, I think Mecha, Battlecast and Super Galaxy are the most direct comparisons. Mecha being huge robots built by yordles to fight... something. Battlecast are biological creatures fused into diesel powered killing machines by Viktor to dominate the future. And Super Galaxy being anime inspired pilots and their mechs.

That makes me think we should do Super Galaxy Amumu and he just cries and refuses to pilot unit 01.

SharjoJan 28, 20172 votes

Then you just have Darius being all like:

http://i.imgur.com/13pDAy9.png?noredirect

Get in the fucking robot Amumu.

RiotKindlejackJan 28, 20173 votes

LOL he has to stay in Caitlyn's apartment with her pet Anivia. How has this not been done yet.

patmax17Jan 28, 20172 votes

I'm DYING xD

Lux on the 02?

Sexy Jack RabbitJan 28, 20172 votes

Wouldn't the natural conclusion be they are fighting the Deep Sea Skin line? They put across some wicked Kaiju feels.

LongHair FoxJan 28, 20172 votes

and +1 for reference.

Sexy Jack RabbitJan 26, 20173 votes

I think I agree 100% on the Commando skin line. They have always been a little more cartoon-y and goofy to me then the other Military skins.

I hope if we see them all updated one day it's at least not in some form of group splash arts. I'd hate to see Lux squared off into the background like Sej has been so far in 2 group splash-arts, and the big macho-machismo men taking up the rest because "GRR MEN AND TESTERONE"

I'd also hate to see Lux's splash her being on break or something with her mask off showing off her pretty face, even though in-game there is none of that to be seen at all. I really like the Commando Lux skin if you didn't guess.

I love Lux's Military skins, they just make her so absolutely bad-ass, and I'd hate see Commando Lux turned into another situation of "we have to make ALL girls pretty." Stop settling with pretty Riot! I love how her Splash is her in the middle of a fire-y field with a stone-cold expression ready to wreck some people.

RiotKindlejackJan 28, 20171 votes

Coincidentally I saw the updated Commando Galio this morning and I think you'll be really pleased!

Sexy Jack RabbitJan 28, 20171 votes

Why must you TEASE ME Kindlejack! You devious Vixen! ; ;
Galio hurry up!

StigtriXJan 28, 20171 votes

Nice! Do you still have the original Unreal Tournament vibe? That is what makes the skin theme appealing to me, at least :) I love the rugged style of the first Unreal Tournament, like a sci-fi take on gladiators. Not a fan of the hulking things in Unreal Tournament 3 (Gears of War theme).

PlacentasJan 26, 20171 votes

Neon Strike Vi becoming Super Galaxy Vi would feel so off in my opinion. The Super Galaxy line is very much inspired by Gurren Lagann originally, no? In Rumble it's clear, the first Super Galaxy skin, and then in Shyv it's obvious her dragon is a robot beast, and then Wolf is the mech thing in Kindred, yeah?

Other than the colors I dont see how Vi would fit in thematically unless given a new recall where she summons a mech or her gauntlet turns into one or something.

RiotKindlejackJan 28, 20171 votes

Well her design was inspired by the same mecha pilot anime. If we did someone without a mech, like Garen or Lee Sin then we'd probably call it Neon Strike too but really they live in the same universe.

D2VincentJan 25, 20171 votes

Thanks for the reply! Great to hear a reply :) If you're interested, I'd like to show what themes I've been trying to use for Full Metal Karthus

For a bit of story for him, I've come up with the idea that a sentient "AI" was created as a surveillance program to monitor Battlecast activity. However, after witnessing endless carnage and destruction, he decided that peace can only be attained through ultimate destruction, and In this, he created a body for himself using prototype nano-machines as well as combined schematics from the previous models. Afterward, he turned on those who created him and destroyed the entire facility with the orbital satellite he once used after it was converted into a powerful laser.

For FMK I've been toying with the idea of Nano-machines and the like which would comprise his Passive, W, and maybe even his Q. (I'm thinking something similar to perhaps the villain from Big Hero 6 mixed with SIVA from Destiny: Rise of Iron) As for the theme for his Ult...GIANT. ORBITAL. DEATH. LAZER. :P I've been trying to keep to whatever metal themes I can pull form the other Full Metal skins I could manage, like the lines of power from Jayce's suit as well as the body segments from Pantheon's skin. He's also got a belt of blades (for his E) meant to resemble parts of FMRammus.

I've also been trying to make sure the skin still connects to Karthus as a champion, which is why I incorporated the nano-machines in lieu of the "Chorus of souls" that would normally make up Karthus's theme.

If you did read this, I'm curious as to what you think of it thematically :)

Also, here's a concept image I did a while back: https://s25.postimg.org/rrj1ohq4f/FMKNew_Concept.png

RiotKindlejackJan 26, 20171 votes

Pretty cool! His ult could be like the satellite from Akira :O

beanyJan 25, 20171 votes

Hey just asking, at the time of Jayce Brighthammer's release you said you would foward the issue of the base champion (and thus all of his skins) missing quite a few of their animations (for more than 2 years and running) to the relevant people, is there any update on that? Issue for reference: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bug-report/OENEZn2E-comprehensive-list-of-all-of-jayces-removed-assets

RobertsmashJan 26, 20172 votes

Hey Kindlejack, some of my favorite skins in the game are... well, idk what to call them, but they're like character progression/alternate outfit skins. Skins that make sense in the canon of Runeterra, and may depict the champion wearing a different outfit or during a different part of their lives. Skins like Captain Fortune (which to me, is base Fortune now), Rugged Garen (which I thought of as Garen in a different part of his life), many Katarina and Jax skins (Angler Jax is just Jax going fishing!), etc.

I've noticed that skins now tend to be the champion in some sort of alternate universe or in some fashion that makes it very unlikely they would ever actually appear that way on Runeterra (Candy King Ivern). Now I'm not saying I don't like these kinds of skins, I love a lot of them and they can be VERY impressive (Project Yi is the bomb)- I just love the character and immersion an in-universe skin (okay that's what I'm calling them) can bring, and playing them feels awesome. I'd be absolutely rocked off my flimflam if I saw a King Jarvan IV skin, or Human versions of any of the Ascended champions, etc.

I know it might be impractical to do them given the limitations of such skins and the significant popularity and massive, fantastical, particle-changing potential of alt-universe skins and skin lines, but as it is so few in-universe skins come out. I know one post by me won't change anything, but do you have an opinion on this? Do you think the skins team will ever release in-universe skins with a regular cadence?

P.S. in my headcanon Blood Moon Diana is completely in-universe and I fkin love that skin.

RiotKindlejackJan 28, 20173 votes

Let me start by saying if you think a skin works in-universe no Rioter is gonna tell you not to. This game and it's lore is for all of us to enjoy however we want to! Personally I love love LOVE the fanfiction/comics/art I see with character interactions and stories, often even more than the official lore.

What you're describing we refer to as 'Lore Skins' and there's actually more than may first be apparent (although many are pre-retcon lore). Pre-void Kassadin, Acolyte Lee Sin, Jailbreak Graves, Spellthief Lux etc. You are right in noticing we haven't done any since the Bildgewater event. Myself and a few others who are big lore fans (like Ant in Oz) pitch the idea to do more semi-regularly but again you're right in guessing that they aren't nearly as popular as the big alternate universe skins we do. Also as other teams continue to build the lore of Runeterra it's difficult to co-ordinate with their efforts, and we wouldn't want to put out a skin that flys in the face of what they're working on either.

I think the biggest opportunity for Lore skins is in characters that either had a drastically different past (such as Renekton before he was a Crocodile or Taliyah when she served Noxus) or who are on a journey and can be depicted at their height of power (Captain Fortune, Tyrant Swain, maybe Sivir if she ascended). I'm really glad to hear I'm not alone in my love of these skins. I'll keep pitching ideas, sometimes it's all about timing and persistence :)

RobertsmashJan 28, 20171 votes

Thanks for the response! It's good to hear lore skins aren't off the table or forgotten by Riot!

StigtriXJan 28, 20171 votes

I really like the Full Metal Vi concept by VegaColors: http://art-of-lol.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Full-Metal-Vi.jpg

I edited it and added some LEDs and altered some colours, added effects etc. He even responded and liked it: http://imgur.com/jgr98Dp

GIF - effects: https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-05-2016/TPZOfP.gif The six LED dots = 6 = VI

YouCantClickThisJan 28, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I really like the Full Metal Vi concept by VegaColors: http://art-of-lol.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Full-Metal-Vi.jpg

I edited it and added some LEDs and altered some colours, added effects etc. He even responded and liked it: http://imgur.com/jgr98Dp

GIF - effects: https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-05-2016/TPZOfP.gif The six LED dots = 6 = VI

Looks it would fit into the PROGRAM line more then full metal tbh.

StigtriXJan 28, 20171 votes

Really? How so? The helmet is close to Jayce's in design. The armour and under armour likewise. The gloves have a lot in common with his hammer. I do not see it.