Can we get some sort of villain from Targon in the future?

Kairoptra·Jan 28, 2018·2 votes·815 views

I know we have Diana, but she's more of an anti-hero/rival than an actual evil person. I'd like to see a legitimately malevolent force of some kind (hopefully an Aspect) that comes from Targon. I'm not talking about some kind of "Aspect of Evil" or something two-dimensional like that. In fact, I think it'd be cool for it to be the Aspect of something that isn't inherently "good" or "evil", but the being just so happens to have evil intentions. Any thoughts?

30 Comments

Warlord DienekesJan 28, 20184 votes

Well, I for one think just about all the space parasites could be considered villains. Except for Protector. Protector's cool.

They enslaved Sol, they have a habit of forcing lower lifeforms to do their bidding for them. They set up at least two obviously fake religions to get the lower lifeforms to worship them for whatever reason. They are an expansionist empire, that has conquered several systems in the stars which is pretty bad especially when we consider that they clearly have not actually used the resources of the ones they've already taken. So, it's just conquest for the sake of conquest. They have blown up stars to get Sol to do what they want which may or may not have had solar systems with habitable planets on them. And even if they had no inhabited planets apparently stars are pseudo-sentient if I'm understanding Sol correctly. Yeah, the space parasites kind of suck.

But if you want a real villain, basically the only actual personality trait they've given Pantheon is that he's an asshole. I'm pretty sure Waarghobo and Reav3 have called him some variation of that. So, there you go.

KairoptraJan 28, 20183 votes

You make some good points, but we really don't know about the Aspect's true intentions. The most obvious answer (and most likely at this point in time) is the one you offered, but I don't really think it's fair to assume anything at the current moment.

As for their relationship with Sol, through the release of Zoe, we have found out that Sol is in some fashion a liar (or at least Zoe thinks so). The only thing Zoe expressly says he lies about (though it has been implied that there might be other things he has exaggerated) is that he created all the stars. In addition, Swain, after pulling out a soul fragment from him, says "What is this about... siblings?"

I really feel like there's a lot more going on than might be apparent. Again, for the time being, your perception seems the most likely, but we should be prepared to accept anything that might get revealed.

SEKAIJan 28, 20183 votes

{quoted}

You make some good points, but we really don't know about the Aspect's true intentions. The most obvious answer (and most likely at this point in time) is the one you offered, but I don't really think it's fair to assume anything at the current moment.

As for their relationship with Sol, through the release of Zoe, we have found out that Sol is in some fashion a liar (or at least Zoe thinks so). The only thing Zoe expressly says he lies about (though it has been implied that there might be other things he has exaggerated) is that he created all the stars. In addition, Swain, after pulling out a soul fragment from him, says "What is this about... siblings?"

I really feel like there's a lot more going on than might be apparent. Again, for the time being, your perception seems the most likely, but we should be prepared to accept anything that might get revealed.

ASol never claimed that he created each and every single star. It was Zoe who misunderstood ASol and then claim him a liar when she found out that ASol does in fact, not create every single star in the universe, something he never said he did.

Zoe is also highly psychologically unstable, as shown in various format from jumping from topic to topic within a single sentence, and her behaviour that seems to be the worst bipolar the universe has witnessed. So I wouldn't put too much credit on the words that get flapped out of their mouth.

Ale non è maleJan 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

ASol never claimed that he created each and every single star. It was Zoe who misunderstood ASol and then claim him a liar when she found out that ASol does in fact, not create every single star in the universe, something he never said he did.

It is never claimed in the lore that ASol created each and every single star. It's just mortals are ignorant about space/other world entities, and given that they only recognized/witnessed Sol as a star forger, they believe he created all the stars

GreenLoreJan 28, 20183 votes

Well most of their intentions are fairly ambigious. We don't know if they created these religons on purpose or if people simply started them on their own will.

And while they did enslave Sol,we do know that they used him at least once to protect a planet from the void. So they could be considered well intentioned extremists in that regard,enslaving Sol,but doing it so that they can use him for the greater good.

Warlord DienekesJan 28, 20181 votes

While it’s true that maybe they didn’t create the religions, what’s also true is as soon as Moon Presence gets a host said hosts goal is to spread this pointless religion. Instead of you know. Something useful.

GreenLoreJan 28, 20182 votes

Keep in mind that Dianas old lore and her VO are outdated. New Diana seemingly wants to unify the lunari and the solari,for unknown reasons(maybe to unite them against a greater threat?Or to ensure that the lunari are no longer opressed?).

Warlord DienekesJan 28, 20181 votes

Fair enough. You know a dumb way to stop oppression? Announce yourself as something disliked and then killing off the religious establishment.

Jeez it’s like Anders all over again. That just unites people against your cause, dumbass.

And as an aside. Fuck Anders.

SEKAIJan 28, 20183 votes

Targonians are basically villains already. Besides the ones currently residing inside Taric and for some reason choose to not devour Taric's ego unlike their other brethrens, every other Targonian shown so far has been painted with nothing but negative light from taking over other people's bodies, to enslavement of ASol, destroying an entire town for little reasons, and whatnot.

Wrathof300Jan 28, 20182 votes

The Aspect of War is the only Aspect painted in a negative light amongst the Aspects though. They are the only one that replaced their vessel's conscience with its own/ a new one. All the other Aspects are the same as the Protector (Taric's) they have left their hosts in full control, Zoe's only limits her powers to ensure she completes her missions.

Not going to justify the enslavement of Sol.

The Targonians do have reasoning behind their actions, that might not make their actions justifiably 'good' but it doesn't make them villains either.

Warlord DienekesJan 28, 20181 votes

There's a difference between actual villainy, and what a writer thinks is villainy.

For the best example I have ever read, look up the Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind. In it, the protagonist mocks and kills just about anyone who disagrees with his philosophy on life, including peaceful protestors at one point, all while the author seems oblivious to the fact that he created a fantasy supervillain. Everything the character does is shown to be moral 100% of the time, Richard is perfect and everything he does is justified. Even the murder of innocents.

Truth is, the writer can justify just about anything. The writers will probably write some platitudes that the space parasites had to act as they do or the Void would control the galaxy. They're conquering to save. Or some other tripe. When really, the characters are just being dicks and the writers have created some ridiculous circumstance to justify it to themselves in a belief that it somehow makes it morally grey or deep.

At it's worst, the reasoning is just outright wrong. Like when it was suggested that Zoe is as powerful as Sol, but her power is less good at murdering mass amounts of people. This would give a reason for why Sol is needed to kill all the Voidspawn. Why they had to enslave him. Unfortunately, it's wrong. If you even stop for a moment to think of how powerful opening portals between any two points in all of space and dimension. She could destroy planets with that.

Lady FacelessJan 28, 20182 votes

Basically. I was actually surprised that WAAARGHbobo (Zoe's writer) was so upset that the boards hated Zoe's lore character. Since as reader I can't see not a single way how she is not suppose to be a character, which you hated with all your guts. I mean, everything that Zoe symbolized in her color story were bad traits - the lack of empathy and understanding, the inability to take consquence for her own action and her absolutly disinterest for her own duty. She is spoiled child, which can't accept a no. Also, she is a walking oxymoron - she is the herald of change, but she is unable to change, learn and grow.

But somehow, we are suppose to have some positive association about her...?

Chromatic EagleJan 28, 20181 votes

Not to insult the writer, but didn't he defend Illaoi forcing her tests on people, even if they die?

Warlord DienekesJan 29, 20181 votes

Yep.

Let’s just say Waarghobo and I have had a few interesting discussions on morality.

I tend to disagree with him, a lot. The Illaoi one was the start. They were quite fun debates, actually.

Wrathof300Jan 29, 20181 votes

You have to look at the reasons why she is doing what she is doing. She believes that said person must be tested to come to terms with change via the test of faith. It not whether or not she believes they should die if they cannot pass, but she believes they must be tested. If she stopped to consider the possibility of the person dying she would never get anything done and by extension be a failure of a priestess in her religion.

Even if we acknowledge that a character's actions are wrong or have negative influences, you have to look at why they are doing what they are doing.

Wrathof300Jan 28, 20181 votes

"In the real world there are no villains. No one actually sets out to do evil... There are no villains cackling and rubbing their hands in glee as they contemplate their evil deeds. There are only people with problems struggling to solve them." - Ben Bova

Truth is, the writer can justify just about anything. The writers will probably write some platitudes that the space parasites had to act as they do or the Void would control the galaxy. They're conquering to save. Or some other tripe. When really, the characters are just being dicks and the writers have created some ridiculous circumstance to justify it to themselves in a belief that it somehow makes it morally grey or deep.

This is why scenarios like this play out. Antagonists/ villains only come about when placed next to a protagonist/ hero of sorts, otherwise they are just characters. This is why Pantheon comes across as a dick, because compared to the other Aspects he is seemingly more extreme in his opposition to the Void; the one usually threatening Sol and taking full control over it's host to ensure they get the job done.

The reasons for why these characters are doing what they are doing is important not because it will make them more sympathetic or reveal a complicated plot twist, it because that is what will determine how relatable these characters are. Yes, Zoe may have undeniably overpowered abilities especially compared to her fellow Aspects. However, what we need to ask is when they gain these powers. Not Zoe, but the Aspect that gave her these powers. It is entirely possible the Targonians gained their powers over the period after Aurelion's capture, maybe even from studying or stealing Sol's powers. It is even possible Targon has other celestials (more powerful than Sol) under their control, just because he could potentially no longer be their strongest resource doesn't undermine the reason they enslaved him, it simply means he's served his purpose.

Warlord DienekesJan 28, 20181 votes

"The issue is now clear. It is between light and dark and every man must choose his side." G. K. Chesterton.

I can quote people too, it doesn't make either of us smarter, or right, for that matter.

Pantheon comes across as a dick because of what he's doing. They now have Zoe. If there ever was a need for Sol, they're past it now. Yet, the last Pantheon still forced him to fight the Void and some stars were destroyed in the process. We're already at the point of murder of an innocent (if we follow that stars are sentient) to accomplish their goals. And that's not even getting into the slavery.

It is possible to make any and all excuses for shitty behavior. That doesn't change that it is shitty behavior.

Furthermore, Pantheon comes across as a dick because he's a violent idiot.

We know they now have Zoe, so the entire last encounter with Sol is pointless.
We know he uses multiple host bodies and discards them, from a Reav3 quote awhile back. This is proven inefficient since we know that the other option is getting a power like Zoe on the field
Despite his life of conquest and violence, he never actually sets himself up as destructible. Only his hosts suffer the consequences for his actions. He's a safe little coward away from it all.

We're left with a "god of war" that doesn't actually fight himself, could, but instead just bullies his minions to do his work for him. Is a body-snatcher that kills his host. And isn't even intelligent about how he goes about commiting resources for a war. He is a failure on every level.

Wrathof300Jan 28, 20181 votes

I can quote people too, it doesn't make either of us smarter, or right, for that matter.

It doesn't, it simply shows that we have different ways of viewing the same thing.

Just because Aurelion has put them in a place where they can start to handle the Void without his immediate presence doesn't mean all is well and just let him go. They didn't enslave him for shits and giggles, the Void is still present and Aurelion can still get the job done, so they continue to order him to do so.

The Aspect of War is in full control of the vessel, this is a counter to Aspects like Zoe coming to be. Although they may acknowledge the feats of mortals they do not trust them. Where you could end up with Aspects like Zoe, with power to change the tide of the war but remains a disrupter, because her Aspect endorses this carefree attitude, and he has no control over that situation.

The Aspect of War is not the only one, when Leona, Diana, Zoe and Taric die, their Aspects will leave their corpses and find new vessels should their power be needed once more. The reason why the Aspects need vessels and do not fight themselves is something Riot has yet to explain in the story. Likewise an actual display of the Aspects' plans and motivations are unknown and yet to be shown in the story. Shitty behaviour will always be shitty behaviour, but its the reasons behind that behaviour that determine whether or not they are a violent idiot.

Chromatic EagleJan 28, 20181 votes

Story wise, most of them are zealots who attack anyone they perceive as a threat, more so if they're tied to the Lunari. They're also concerned about the Void, so I'd expect a Void champion to terrorize them at some point.

LastAzAzELJan 28, 20181 votes

some of my theories on targon

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/bv1wGA9d-the-darkin-orphan-golden-queenand-the-golden-skin-boy-theorytargon-shurima-darkin

Wrathof300Jan 28, 20181 votes

A region's villains are as important in establishing who they are, as fleshing out the region itself, but Targon has been setup against the Void. No matter how deep each Void champs lore goes, Riot has their work cut out for them because the Void is a force of nature. This is why I think Targon needs more than just their conflict with the Void.

The extent to which Targon 'conquers' planets hasn't been elaborated upon yet but, the theory is that they leave 'beacons' such as Mount Targon on planets they protect, allowing them to travel quickly to the planets and select warriors to bestow powers upon, to help defend their world from the Void. However, surely there must been creatures and races that oppose the Targonians; Aurelion's siblings as Swain hinted perhaps, or other celestials like Bard? What about the Darkin? Targon was willing to incur the wrath of the Star Forger if it meant they had a means to fight back against the Void. Who else's toes did they step on to get where they are now?

It has also been revealed that the Aspects don't necessarily get along (the fact that one allowed their followers to wipe out another's followers made this evident a long time ago though) so infighting is a possibility.

With regard to an 'evil Aspect', if Kayle and Morgana are reworked to be Targon related champs I could see Morg playing this role of an Aspect that betrayed the other Aspects. Something I think would also be cool, an Aspect that survived the Void invasion of their world but is the lone survivor of their race, and has gone antihero, a rogue/ wanderer Aspect of sorts. Personally I don't mind if we receive a 'smaller villain' for now. A monster dwelling on Mount Targon after being banished from the celestial realm, a former enemy of Targon sentenced to death on Runeterra by the hands of the Rakkor.

There are lots of things Riot could do to make the story more complex, it depends on what route they want to go. Are the Targonians trying to conquer the universe or are they just trying to stop the Void?

Warlord DienekesJan 28, 20184 votes

The problem with making their goal trying to stop the Void is that they're currently doing it in the most idiotic way possible.

Sending children as messengers? Creating a religious schism? Using star destruction as bargaining chips? Creating a weapon that could easily close any Void rift seen thus far, and placing it in the hands of an unstable tween who uses it to get cake?

They're either completely insane, or they're not actually serious about stopping the Void.

Wrathof300Jan 28, 20182 votes

You are assuming they are all working in tandem, as we've been told the Aspects do not work together even if they share a history where they did or even if their current goals are the same. No one Aspect can fully represent any of the others, the fact that the Aspect of the War is the only Aspect that controls their hosts, the fact that Zoe was tested at the mountain's based, that Diana climbed the mountain with the help of her Aspect and that Leona and Taric had been chosen prior to their ascent are proof. They have different methods of doing things and go about their goals in specific ways.

Zoe was chosen because of her personality, she would be someone that could travel to the far reaches of the universe beyond the understanding of mortals and she would be able to accept "this is how things work". Certainly the Twilight Aspect's concern with grander scheme of things is questionable, it is as though they intentionally squandered their powers on the bet they'd have a good time oppose actually fulfilling their duties, they are a Trickster god after all. Reading Leona's lore Diana describes the Moon Aspect and Sun Aspect as 'not enemies'. So it is questionable why did the genocide of the Lunari come to be, and why wasn't it stopped? The Aspects are potentially still at fault but maybe not for instigating the schism, rather failing to prevent it.

Aurelion's Stars contain a portion his essence within them, this is why he considers them almost as children. Placing his command in Zoe's hands is indeed insane, it probably pissed the hell out of all the other Aspects, she then proceeds to defend the dragon when he defies of Aspects. She is far more than an unstable tween, she has an understanding of quantum physics and cosmic secrets, she is a god only pretending to be a child. The Aspects of Targon are not unified in their actions.

Warlord DienekesJan 28, 20181 votes

Non-conformity does not excuse lunacy. Twilight gave ultimate cosmic power to a being that barely grasps that things can die.

That they’re not unified does not mean they get a free pass to fuck about with the planet in strange contradictory ways that leave bodies in their wake with no discernible goal.

Wrathof300Jan 28, 20182 votes

It does not, but who is there to stop them? Of the ones who can: AurelionSol their lapdog, Bard hasn't intervene so he likely doesn't care, and the Void which is concerned only with the indiscriminate corruption of everything.

They are the gods of Mount Targon, however power =/= heroes and good will. They do not act as a unit and have no responsibility to each other as far as we know of, so why should they be held accountable collectively for the actions of one. Even as gods they are imperfect and have their own set of morals and biases.

Warlord DienekesJan 28, 20181 votes

Yep. Pretty much all of that is why I consider the space parasites villains really.

As a species they shouldn’t be held accountable. But as individuals they’re all pretty much bastards. Except Protector. He’s cool.

Wrathof300Jan 28, 20181 votes

Makes sense, it ties back into your quote from our other discussion too:

"The issue is now clear. It is between light and dark and every man must choose his side." G. K. Chesterton.

So if they don't conform to your expectation of good / 'light', they must be on the other side.

Warlord DienekesJan 28, 20182 votes

Not actually my intention there. I don’t agree with Chesterton or Bova. It was more a means of demonstrating the flaw of quotation as argument. If you don’t mind the minor insult, both of these men are smart. Probably smarter than either of us. But you can find a smart person to quote for just about any opinion on any topic. Yet the power of quotation gets used as though it actually means something.

To speak of just these two, they are on opposite sides of an argument. In one, there is absolute right and wrong, the kind that exists not as a vague ideal but as fact. All beings can then be judged against these facts. In the other, we are all the definitions of our own good and each cannot be judged against the other. We are all good, making the word meaningless. Stalin becomes just as good as Christ.

In my mind one allows no morality at all and the other allows no missteps. When for actual people we all have to decide where we draw the line in what we excuse as permissible. And if wr’re actually just about it we judge our side with the same scrutiny as we would judge our opposition.

So, if I heard that an adult gave a child a gun and told her it was harmless to shoot policemen. I can and would judge that as a repulsive act. Well, what do you know that’s basically what Twilight did to Zoe.

If I heard someone in the 1800s tricked a friend so they would be captured and enslaved just so they could live easier, I can judge that as pretty much a dick move.

When innocents are being killed or having their sense of self destroyed when there are clearly obviously more efficient ways of going about things, I can call that behavior straight up villainous.

We all have to draw the line somewhere, or else the very concept of morals ceases to have meaning.

Wrathof300Jan 29, 20181 votes

I will admit you have a solid and convincing argument here, and you are correct. If we in fact judge the characters based on their actions they can be considered villainous.

However, I still think it is important to consider 'why'. Why, not for the purpose of proving their innocence or their righteousness, but rather, because we get so caught up in judging them we forget to put ourselves in their shoes, and consider the possibility we could have become like them. "There are no villains in real life, only people with problems struggling to solve them." Sometimes we give a wrong solution, there is a reason criminology goes beyond just knowing the law. The purpose of quotation is never to prove a point, its purpose is to express an opinion/ point of view.

Someone can be judged villain based on their actions, but to judge them evil you look at their reasons. I suppose this is the lesson I take away from this, but I digress.

Edit: I think this helps get across my second point, kill a man during wartime and be called a hero, kill the same man outside of wartime and be called a criminal. The difference between these 2, their reasons, that soldier has to believe what they are doing, and why they are doing it, are for justifiable reasons. Otherwise (with no disrespect to the men and women who devote themselves to their countries) there is no difference between them.

Ale non è maleJan 29, 20181 votes

After the lore relaunch, Targon has no hero except for Taric, so I don't get how they can integrate a new willain's role into a proper Targon champ (not someone that happen to cross Targon story) lore The interesting thing about Targon's aspects, is that even though they are demi-god, they feel like among the most "human" characters in League lore so far. Pantheon is a soulless warrior (the opposite of what Atreus was in life ironically), which has no moral guideline except do anything in his power to fight Targon's enemies, Leona and Diana are the champions of Solari and Lunari agenda If you add that that they have to deal with A.Sol which is a narcisistic space dragon who care about his stars creation and Zoe which is whatever the hell she is supposed to represent as Aspect of Nature (basically Lulu x Ivern lore on space steroids), Targon's lore and his representatives look like they have just "human" behaviours to reach their own goal, showing both good and evil nature and actions at times