As of late, the lore power curve has been...kind of out of whack with new champs.

ModCaptainMårvelous··46 votes·3,798 views

So let's discuss Season 7's champion releases:

Camille Xayah Rakan Kayn Ornn Zoe

My problem with them isn't that they're bad characters. Hell, I think most of them are worthy additions...the problem comes that they're throwing the scale of power out of wack. I made a joke a few years ago about how League was adding more and more powerful characters (lore-wise) to the mix and how this could result in some problematic storytelling. As it turns out, my problems didn't really go away.

First and foremost: Xayah and Rakan don't make the power scale absurd. Which is good! They're champions who are skilled and somewhat magical but not powerful enough to level mountains. Woo!

Camille's issue isn't that she can level buildings or do insane stuff. Rather, her power-scale problem comes from her city: Compared to other Piltover (and Zaun) characters, she's far-and-away one of the most powerful. An experienced cyborg with top-of-the-line technology who works on behalf to keep everything running in both cities. She's way stronger than almost every character in Piltover and I'd haphazard she'd win almost every 1v1. The ones who she would have some trouble against (IMO Ekko Viktor and maybe Urgot ) are more "skill" match-ups in terms of lore. She's still, far and away, breaking the scale.

Then we get to Kayn.

Fuck.

A Darkin + A human who is trained by Noxus and Zed and capable of killing a Darkin. That's fucking STRONG.

Ornn and Zoe speak for themselves. One a demigod of the Freljord who is ageless and resposible for most of the greatest weaponry in the history of Runeterra and another Targon aspect who is on-par with Aurelion Sol. Yeah, ok. That's pretty busted.

My problem with all these champions is that it feels like with each addition, the distance between SSS-tier (Aurelion and Bard) and F-tier (<Insert weak champion here>) grows larger. Where there used to just be A-D tier you now have giant power gaps. You have champions who warp the story by existing. And these are just champions, mind you. We're not talking about something above SSS-tier like "The Entity" from the void or "Nagakeboros" which exist but can't be champions due to raw power...or hell, maybe they will be.

#TL;DR: With each passing season/release I grow increasingly worried. League is rapidly becoming a game filled with Supermen who powercreep each other to establish a new tier of power. The Dragonball Z problem.

109 Comments

Wert the Wacky59 votes

F tier you say? Gragas This man’s only real power lore wise is that he’s drunk literally all the time.

Wet Dryman2 votes

He's a master of Kung Fu (and other arts...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C-eQbzL8fg

And lore wise he can't even get drunk. His whole quest is to make brew so powerful that it will make him finally drunk.

Pale Pirate2 votes

His whole quest is to make brew so powerful that it will make him finally drunk.

lol this is hilarious

SettDownShutUp2 votes

Funnily enough, I think F-tier might just be Miss Fortune. She shoots a pair of pistols. No. Not magic pistols. Just...y'know. Pistols. oh! she can also strut at you, like, really fast.

Gangplank now has a robo-arm, and still commands a ship with his ultimate. Whatever you wanna call Tristana's bazooka, it packs way more firepower and she also carries explosives, and as lucian has shown in his latest video, he's got some paladin shit goin on.

The only person I can think of that would be equal to Miss-fortune, oddly enough, is Draven. At least she has guns, he only has axes that spin >.> Woooo....

LUXANNA HOSHIDO5 votes

didn't she like 1v5 in one of her comics

Sharjo25 votes

Isn't the core theme going through a lot of lore now though obtaining power of greater significance than one's own innate power in order to best challenges, and the potential of humanity as a whole in being able to embrace such power? Like it's all over Runeterra:

  • The Ascended were transformed to serve as Shurima's greatest champions, fought in their wars and solidified them as a great power in the world
  • Xerath blew Shurima up because of his desire for power
  • The Aspects deliberately chose worthy humans to help protect the world and serve Targon's ends
  • The vastaya came to be from humans being influenced by the vastayashai'rei
  • Ivern sought power to defeat the Frozen Watchers
  • Sejuani's allied with Volibear atm, presumably to utilise the demi-god's power to conquer the Freljord
  • Swain sought a demon, conquered it according to his own words, and uses it's power to lead Noxus
  • Piltover's really in to using magic crystals, the originals of which were ripped from the Brackern's hides, to effectively make magic workable for the common Runeterran
  • Zaun does similar stuff but with alchemicals as opposed to hexcrystals
  • The Order of the Shadow is embracing new, darker powers and harnessing ancient powers of Ionia to ensure their land's supremacy

Hell going back, this traces back to the earliest point of Runeterra's known history, where Targon enslaved Aurelion Sol to utilise his power for their own ends; another form of what humans have done consistently across Runeterra. The only nations not actively doing a power grab in some form are Bil;gewater, for lack of any despite the power all around them (and maybe beneath them if Swain's word's anything to go by), and Demacia, who have access to that power but don't use it because of ignorance, fear and culture, but even then they still made that work by figuring out how to make petricite.

The powerful beings of League are contrasted by the humans who do the smart things, and it feels far less than some DBZ thing where people are trying to gain power to 1v1 some great Void nasty of evil and shit, but more a case of harnessing power that already exists to ensure their nation survives, or they survive. The power curve feels like it's not an issue providing the story isn't a shonen manga series. And it's not. The story's about a mostly human world and what humans do in that world to better themselves, in one way or another. It's not Volibear fighting Ashe by Sejuani's will, it's Sejuani bolstering the ranks of the Winter's Claw with the Ursine, and riding with the demi-god in to battle. It's not about Swain 1v1ing Aurelion Sol, it's about him using his demonic powers to gain intelligence and devise strategies to serve Noxus's greater interests. It's not about Zed and Kayn becoming the super Shadow Lords of doom, it's about gaining the resources and powers necessary to protect Ionia. The power curve means little when the only thing Aurelion Sol's gonna fight are beings on his level, beings that, as far as we know, don't exist in the context of the story yet.

Someone's gonna have to explain to me why the powercurve of champions is a problem for the lore, cuz I don't get it.

Nylisa8 votes

From your prespective it fits so well i agree. however i think the reason this matter appears like this to some people , is because we dont have much of an expanded lore and interactions between the characters and the world around them. they feel like isolated characters who are fighting a universe on their own and at some points its gonna be a 1vs1 battles between characters everywhere.

For example Swain take the battle to Demacia's capital its gonna be him and his generals,that we know to be champions,against the characters we know from Demacia. so at the end when all comes together "if they do" its gonna be a fight between all the seemingly Undefeatable demigods and darkins.

Everytime we get a story its a limited number of words that can explain so little about the characters and most often those stories doesnt explain how these characters fit in their place in runettera very well.most often these stories are about certain events of characters lives that shaped them into who they are now or explain their purposes.

This might be irrelavent to you but i think another reasons this happens is that we have an almost empty picture of the Universe of Runettera, as if its filled only with all the powerful champions.everyone is some sort of ultimate hero or demigod. when setting the scene is missing from a story, its easy to only see bunch of characters that are all too powerful and ultimately the powercurve seem to be a problem!

As much as this is an issue its unavoidable since we dont have an actual story line going on to bind all of these stories and characters together , all of it seems like scattered bits of stories that might as well not be from the same universe.

Im not sure if i can bring my point across here but if yes, i'd like to know your thoughts on it.

GreenLore11 votes

I don't think that kayn is really THAT powerful. After all his goal is to surpass zed,so at lest regular Kayn is still weaker than Zed and shadow assassin-kayn is probably just as strong as Zed. Now Rhaast is likely stronger than the other 2 forms in the lore,but I don't think that he is more powerful than Aatrox.

Also while Ornn and Zoe are both high-tier champs,I wouldn't say they really bust the gap in power. After all they don't introduce some new kind of power tier,they merely add to already existing ones and thus give these power tiers a bit more variation.

DuskDaUmbreon6 votes

Specifically about Kayn/Rhaast, I want to mention that Kayn being able to win has nothing to do with power. That's mental and spiritual strength, not power.

Him being able to crush Rhaast implies a vast mental, spiritual, and moral strength. The ability to cast out and crush a Darkin. Without magic, or any powers.

Theoretically, he could sit at a 1 on the sliding power scale and be able to do this. A 1, because being able to resist something like that inherently bumps you up a stage.

GreenLore2 votes

Honestly it is unknown how difficult it is to overpower a darkin. From what we know,it is possible that other champs in the game would also have the ability to crush a darkin.

AbiwonKenabi2 votes

Well the new Varus stuff, as much as I don't like it, shows us that apparently two hunters of presumably average mental fortitude that are in love with each other is required to hold back a Darkin. So two average people plus the power of love and they can barely hold him back. I'm assuming Kayn is even better since he regularly retains control and is also good enough to be a champ in his own right.

GreenLore1 votes

The thing is that these 2 people essentially gave themselves to the darkin. Kai was dying and the only way to save him was having Varus remake his body.

Also Val and Kai might not be as mentally strong as most other champs.

AbiwonKenabi2 votes

But they're in love GreenLore. LOVE. Are you doubting the power of love?

GreenLore2 votes

Yes

AbiwonKenabi2 votes

How heinous

Jet Sett3 votes

Yeah, Kayn is only a master of all martial weaponry and a prodigy in shadow techniques. Anything after that is either yet to be (assassin Kayn) or mental strength as noted by Dusk. While he's certainly very skilled he doesn't command a lot of raw power at the moment.

Wrathof3009 votes

Camille certainly is top dog in Piltover/Zaun, I agree that while she isn't being given a run for her money, the playing field may be more leveled than we think. Urgot: 1v1 would may go in Camille's favour but Urgot's army is an important factor to his character as is Camille's access to Ferros clan tech. Warwick and DrMundo posses some of the greatest healing factors in all of league, Warwick more so than Mundo, I could see fighting Camille on even playing field.


While the Darkin could be assumed to be equal in strength to the Ascended, currently in the story Kayn only wields Rhaast and likely has a much more limited access to this Darkin power. Based on the 3 Darkin host Kayn would have been last if not for his Shadow Magic (because Aatrox and Varus would have more access to their Darkin powers), so the question is: how strong is Shadow magic, and how proficient is Kayn at using it?


I question Zoe actually being as powerful as AurelionSol. I think they are talking about her space-time abilities more than her destructive capability. Even her ability to warp reality may have certain limitations we have yet to learn about, i.e. a size limit to her portals? a limit on the amount of time she can rewind? Yeah, she one of the more overpowered champs, but I think this is more of the 'Vegeta instance' where a character of equally power level being introduced so that Sol and Bard don't seem too out of reach (similar to how Vegeta will always reach Goku's new power up or gain one of his own).

Sharjo16 votes

I question Zoe actually being as powerful as AurelionSol . I think they are talking about her space-time abilities more than her destructive capability. Even her ability to warp reality may have certain limitations we have yet to learn about, i.e. a size limit to her portals? a limit on the amount of time she can rewind?

Power isn't measured solely in destructive power though. Kindred and Bard are of Aurelion Sol's power, but neither's about to 1v1 him in a test of strength; their power is meant for different purposes.

Wrathof3001 votes

Yep, this is what I was getting at. Was actually reading Warghbobo's comment on it way back, said the same thing basically.

Warlord Dienekes1 votes

And I still think his reasoning was bull. We clearly see energy and solids pass through the portal and that Zoe can open multiple at a time.

That is all you need to destroy things as efficiently as Sol ever does.

I mean, she could literally create nukes with that.

Sharjo7 votes

Sure but at the end of the day her power's not focused on destroying stuff, even if it can be applied as such. We always speak to Aurelion Sol's destructive capabilities, but in the end he's a creator at heart. The champion who is the most destructive is technically Kindred, and that expression of power is in just the assurity of death, rather than the spectacle of a dying star.

Warlord Dienekes1 votes

But that wasn't the argument. The argument was that Zoe's power is not as destructively powerful, which is wrong. If anything it is stronger than Sol's in terms of raw demolish.

It may not ever be used as such. But that doesn't change the potential uses of the power, it just means that the characters of Zoe and Twilight are restricting themselves.

Skins Project1 votes

Maybe I'm wrong here, but by that logic, sol who can create stars could com-bust one which is beyond the scale of zoe's power? Just IMO tho. Don't forget that everything is "restricted" in the league world.

A-Sol "true form" is literally the size of like a galaxy, and has the power to create mother freaking stars.

Warlord Dienekes1 votes

Sol can combust a star, Zoe can create a portal to the heart of a black hole. Sol can spawn starfire, Zoe can link the center of a sun directly below your feet. Unrestricted portals are ridiculously powerful and versatile.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

But do you think she’s intelligent or creative enough to do that?

Warlord Dienekes1 votes

Oh, Zoe’s an idiot. My rambling is more a point that Twilight and by extension the other Aspects don’t know what the hell theyre doing.

For example, why the hell would any group make Pantheon your Warrior when the monstrous power that is behind Zoe is waiting in the wings. The fact they have access at all to that power should change their entire strategy on their war with the Void or whatever the hell else they’re doing.

What purpose is a guy that fights good, next to precision black holes, and summoned meteors?

Ralanr3 votes

I think it might be something that they themselves don’t want to risk.

The math would have to be perfect to make sure nothing bad happens. Black holes are absolutely terrifying with how they basically laugh at reality as it eats away at everything. If they don’t do it correctly, they could cause an end to the very solar system they’re working in.

Makes the Star dragon a lot less risky.

Warlord Dienekes1 votes

Black holes aren’t just to prove a point really. The same could be done portalling into a nova or something.

And besides, they’ve had thousands of years to work out the math on this and practice on uninhabited solar systems and planets.

Ralanr3 votes

Idk. Politics and civil wars seem to get in the way.

CithriaC2 votes

It is a conflict of interest, Zoe got chosen by Twilight because she wouldn't do stuff like experiment to find out the power of a black hole, Twilight doesn't want to use its power in that way. While Pantheon would love to be able to control Zoe like he can control Aurelian Sol, she is doing what she was chosen to do, to be herself.

I think I read somewhere that Twilight was a stronger aspect than Pantheon and the others, could be mountain politics, the aspect of war wants to fight, the aspect of twilight doesn't care, the aspect of war took over his host, twilight found a host that it liked and gave it control.

Wrathof3001 votes

However, the fact is that fighting at the forefront is not her job and no one can force her to, especially if the Targonians truly are not unified about how they will defeat the Void. She fulfills what the Aspect of Twilight requires and goes about her day. Also its unlikely other Aspects could catch her if she really wanted to evade them.

It's stressed that Zoe gained this power as she had more time to form a deeper bond with her Aspect. Taric is an example I like to use, because based on Riot's interpretation of what his gems are (condensed/ frozen starlight) if he lived as long as Zoe, he could probably nullify any star Aurelion threw at him, likewise imagine the possibility of the other Aspects if they had a millennia under their belts.

Berserknurple3 votes

Uhhhh I’m fairly certain that Death itself is far above Aurelion Sol. No one on the roster currently is close to on par with Kindred. Everything dies or will be destroyed eventually. Even undead will be destroyed by some thing or another. Sol is just a particularly powerful long lived dragon.

zaire902 votes

{quoted}

Camille certainly is top dog in Piltover/Zaun, I agree that while she isn't being given a run for her money, the playing field may be more leveled than we think. Urgot: 1v1 would may go in Camille's favour but Urgot's army is an important factor to his character as is Camille's access to Ferros clan tech. Warwick and DrMundo posses some of the greatest healing factors in all of league, Warwick more so than Mundo, I could see fighting Camille on even playing field.


While the Darkin could be assumed to be equal in strength to the Ascended, currently in the story Kayn only wields Rhaast and likely has a much more limited access to this Darkin power. Based on the 3 Darkin host Kayn would have been last if not for his Shadow Magic (because Aatrox and Varus would have more access to their Darkin powers), so the question is: how strong is Shadow magic, and how proficient is Kayn at using it?


I question Zoe actually being as powerful as AurelionSol. I think they are talking about her space-time abilities more than her destructive capability. Even her ability to warp reality may have certain limitations we have yet to learn about, i.e. a size limit to her portals? a limit on the amount of time she can rewind? Yeah, she one of the more overpowered champs, but I think this is more of the 'Vegeta instance' where a character of equally power level being introduced so that Sol and Bard don't seem too out of reach (similar to how Vegeta will always reach Goku's new power up or gain one of his own).

They may have a strong healing factor but isnt Camille basically an assassin so if she manages to sneak upon them and say chop off a head with her leg then you cant heal from that

Warwick Main1 votes

{quoted}

They may have a strong healing factor but isnt Camille basically an assassin so if she manages to sneak upon them and say chop off a head with her leg then you cant heal from that

Debatable with Warwick. With his heightened sense of smell (Warwick actually quotes she smells like tea, haha), sight, and hearing I think it may be near impossible for Camille to sneak up on him. There is also animal instinct, but that's such a slippery slope I won't delve into that. Instead lets talk about Warwick's healing factor. The chemicals running into Warwick have successfully regrown his hand, so we know that any lost limbs are merely temporary. Now, most would say "well you can't heal if you're dead" but Warwick is the exception to the rule. Remember that before Warwick's transformation was complete (who is to say it is) he had to die. It was not pain, but death that proved to be the final catalyst for him. Honestly if Camille DID manage to sneak up on him, which is unlikely, he'd probably just regrow his head and reanimate again. Then he'd pop in for some tea.

zaire901 votes

[{quoted}](name=K9 Unit,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ME9nGX0f,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2018-02-03T01:23:36.435+0000)

Debatable with Warwick. With his heightened sense of smell (Warwick actually quotes she smells like tea, haha), sight, and hearing I think it may be near impossible for Camille to sneak up on him. There is also animal instinct, but that's such a slippery slope I won't delve into that. Instead lets talk about Warwick's healing factor. The chemicals running into Warwick have successfully regrown his hand, so we know that any lost limbs are merely temporary. Now, most would say "well you can't heal if you're dead" but Warwick is the exception to the rule. Remember that before Warwick's transformation was complete (who is to say it is) he had to die. It was not pain, but death that proved to be the final catalyst for him. Honestly if Camille DID manage to sneak up on him, which is unlikely, he'd probably just regrow his head and reanimate again. Then he'd pop in for some tea.

I figured someone would bring up his heightened sense of smell but I was curious how intelligent is WW after the transformation because I figured he became dumber but since I couldnt entirely remember his story I didnt bring it up. But WW can be outsmarted if he did indeed become dumber (more animal like)

Papa Andrei6 votes

I miss the days when Ryze was considered the most powerful ;-;

Naalith6 votes

There's a very good argument to be made that Ryze is like the 4th most powerful character in the game. Bard, Aurelion, and to a lesser extent Zoe are all insanely powerful but Ryze also has a bunch of World Runes which have augmented his powers greatly, even if he doesn't use them on purpose. With that, the fact World Runes can literally destroy or create worlds from scratch, and the fact that Ryze is thousands of years old and definitely the most powerful magic user, I would say he's a safe 4th. Keep in mind that Targon is a place that can be annihilated by World Runes and so is the Darkin world, and Ryze says multiple worlds rest on his shoulders. The most powerful Void creatures like Vel'Koz and Cho'Gath MIGHT be more powerful though, they're not in the new canon yet unfortunately to see.

Aeszarck1 votes

{quoted}

https://imgur.com/iKFCTNh

LOL now I want power numbers for all the champions, where you start off by assigning the weakest champion a power level of 1 and then base every other champion's power level off of how much stronger they are than that weakest champion.

Glory ln Death3 votes

You've got you're Average Joes with weapons (Garen, Darius, etc), then you're Average Joes with magical weapons (Ashe, Sejuani, etc), and then there's the Magical Joes with weapons (Vastaya and Yordles, for instance), followed by Magical Joes with magical weapons (Kayn, Leona, Diana, etc), and finally the Magical Joes who don't even need weapons.

This is the categorization of champions.

IvernBramblefoot1 votes

you guys sure do care a lot about something that's just going to get retconned in a few years.

NemeBro1 votes

{quoted}

Camille&#039;s issue isn&#039;t that she can level buildings or do insane stuff. Rather, her power-scale problem comes from her city: Compared to other Piltover (and Zaun) characters, she&#039;s far-and-away one of the most powerful. An experienced cyborg with top-of-the-line technology who works on behalf to keep everything running in both cities. She&#039;s way stronger than almost every character in Piltover and I&#039;d haphazard she&#039;d win almost every 1v1. The ones who she would have some trouble against (IMO Ekko Viktor and maybe Urgot ) are more &quot;skill&quot; match-ups in terms of lore. She&#039;s still, far and away, breaking the scale.

I frankly can't really see why you'd assume Camille is the most powerful Piltover/Zaun character tbh. Based on what?

ModCaptainMårvelous6 votes

Few things:

  • Camille is stated as having "some of the best" if not THE best augmentation, as she's the personal hitwoman of Piltover's upper echelon.
  • Camille is greatly experienced, pushing around 80 years old whereas most characters fall around 20-40 in Piltover/Zaun according to storylines and general looks (Jayce probably isn't pushing 50 if we had to make logical assumptions.)
  • Camille got them connections boi.
  • Camille's track record is (as far as we know) spotless, as nobody has pieced together that she's controlling from the shadows yet.
  • From what we're told of her skills/abilities, she's got maneuverability, precision and pure damage surpassing most other Piltover characters.

When you put it all together, Camille trumps most characters in finesse, planning, power and tech.

The reason why I put her "skill match-ups" as such:

  • Ekko can rewind time. It's a question of if Camille can land a fatal blow before Ekko figures out how to dismantle her (or Camille outlasts him)
  • Viktor is described as one of the greatest inventors in terms of augmentation. His machines might be able to compete with hers. Jayce doesn't hit this marker because he doesn't have the augmentation Viktor does.
  • Urgot is a powerhouse of augmentation. This fight is a question of if Urgot can handle her punishment enough to land a killing blow.
Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

Camille is greatly experienced, pushing around 80 years old.

Singed is like over a 100 years old tho.

Ayame Isaki1 votes

And Janna (who apparently lives in Zaun now) isn't even mortal, so I'd give it to Janna over Camille.

Jerry SeinfeId2 votes

true, she's quite strong. not to mention Warwick is pretty much camille's zaun counterpart.

ModCaptainMårvelous4 votes

Forgot about Janna. She might be able to take Camille provided she has enough people believing in her. Gamara rules.

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