@Jaredan & Narrative: What are the exact rules for communicating?

TerraRising··27 votes·2,095 views

Alright, gentlemen. I’m sure you’re reading this or will have someone tell you about it.

Recently, two messages from your team have caused a huge amount of consternation in this subgroup.

First was from Ant in Oz, who said:

Please don’t offer up specific story ideas – legally, we just can’t use them (the same reason I don’t read fan-fic – it’s a can of worms from a legal POV).

Then there was Jaredan's statement in another thread:

There are just certain things we can respond to and other things we can't. It's not as much the topic as it is the way we engage about it. *** I know Ant in Oz riled some folks when saying that we can't read fan-fiction. I can understand how that might appear, but it's just a truth of being a professional writer. It's partly due to the legality of it, but also because using other people's ideas, even accidentally, is stomach churning to a creative writer.*** Talking about already created stories and characters, talking about the essences of people and places of Runeterra, it's all good. Pitching an idea for a story you want us to tell? Not so much.

I tried to play your game by only talking “core concepts” about my favorite champion, Yorick. It was, to be frank, a nightmare trying to be that careful.

I had to constantly type that I wasn’t trying to offer story ideas and be as vague as possible. Worse yet, I had to remind other people to not post their story ideas and someone else accused me of doing more harm than good with my execution.

It was painful. It was disheartening. And, above all else, it felt meaningless since I had no idea if you actually read that damn thread.

So, as a request from the fanbase still here after all the nonsense we’ve gone through over the past three and a half years, do us all favor and tell us what your rules actually are.

If you want interaction with your fans, you need to start by telling us what is and is not kosher for you. Be specific, be complete, and don’t leave any doubts around. It’s become really rough around here, not being able to interact with you in any meaningful manner, and it’s entirely your fault this time.

So just tell us what the rules are, for all our sakes. Or, if you just want passive, passionless fans, just say nothing and let the fandom die.

16 Comments

CupcakeTrap15 votes

It's also, I think, more complicated than that; Jaredan, for example, mentioned that he'd read tons of League fanfic, and enjoyed it.

I agree that it would be great to get some clarification. Myself, in the meantime, I think our default should be to just talk freely, but focus on core concepts (Lana) and key thematic elements rather than the nitty-gritty of stories we'd like to read. I would say that sometimes I think you've got to get into specifics to have a really good discussion. For example, we can say "I think Lucian should come from a non-aristocratic background", and that's something, but I think you get a richer discussion if people are actually throwing around ideas like "he should be from a priestly class" or "maybe his family were merchants" or "maybe he's an orphan" or what-have-you. I don't get the impression that that's what Jaredan was describing as problematic. To be honest, and I can imagine people disagreeing, I wouldn't see a problem with "if you're looking for a new Evelynn, try reading so-and-so's Evelynn stories. I think they do a good job of bringing out her essential character." I would see an issue with Riot then directly copying those stories, of course. Depending on how I read Narrative Rioters' comments, I can see a whole range of possibilities, from extremely strict ("all of the above is illegal and you will be banned for doing so, and we'll send Phreak to key your car, too") to extremely liberal ("well, some of us would decline to read the Evelynn stories, but some of us would happily read them and discuss what elements we might borrow").

At the risk of going too deep into the weeds, my particular questions about the statements that have been made would be:

(1) Wait, what do you mean it's a can of worms from a legal POV? I think that might be more about lay rumors about how the law works than policies grounded in formal legal advice. Might be worth checking to make sure you're not acting on inaccurate assumptions about the law.

(2) I can understand how even accidentally stealing someone's work can be "stomach-churning". On the other hand, I feel like that describes a fairly limited subset of situations. In terms of appropriating characters, for instance…uhhhh, is Riot Games really anxious about this? The whole premise is "we grabbed a bunch of sci-fi and fantasy characters and threw them into a battle arena." Granted, perhaps it's different when everybody understands the reference. ("You jerk! Twisted Fate is really Gambit, a character created by a little-known studio called Marvel Comics.") But even if we're talking about ripping off, say, a fanfic character, it seems like the solution would be to ask for permission, not as a legal thing, but just as a matter of courtesy. In terms of accidental appropriation…honestly, I'm having a hard time understanding this. Isn't that a fundamental part of writing? That you read, and absorb tropes, character archetypes, themes, and so on, and that becomes part of what you draw on for your own work? "Bad authors 'borrow', good authors steal." As a final layer: doesn't it sort of change things when you're drawing from sources that are themselves community expansions on your canon? I feel like most League community members would be tickled pink for Riot to borrow their characters or other ideas, and it would take a lot of gall to object. "Hey, you're ripping off my Noxian shadow-sorcerer lady!" "Um, yeah, well, you're ripping off Noxus, so." Jaredan's been very active in the community, and it would be helpful if he could clarify what he's trying to avoid.

If Narrative has hard-and-fast rules, I'd like more clarification. If it's more about having preferences, then I think we have enough of an indication of their preferences, and they can say more later on if need be. The first step is clarifying: are we talking about strict rules, or general guidelines, or simply individual preferences?

not a starburst3 votes

I'm going to chime in here and add that the whole "but what if we accidentally steal some ideas from someone" line of thought is, in this sort of case, one not really worth pursuing, simply because at some point you'll have to use ideas someone else already used.

For example: Xerath's lore. Everyone says it was ripped straight off of Fullmetal Alchemist- but what if the people or person who came up with it had never even heard of Fullmetal Alchemist? Riot, you can't worry about every single snippet of writing being completely unique, because that's impossible. Stories are patchworks.

Furthermore, the fact that it has been used before doesn't matter as much if you can make it different enough from what it came from. Frankly, Xerath's new lore is pretty good. Or it would be, if we actually had a lot of context for it. In fact, the entire problem could be easily solved with a little context.

The crux of the problem is that since Shurima is, in a lot of ways, [insert generic ancient empire here], and, in fact, Runeterra/Valoran is now also [insert generic fantasy/sci-fi setting here]. Which makes all of the lore, especially the new champion bios (if they can even really be called that), look generic too, because there's nothing special about them, because, again, there's nothing really special about the world they inhabit. And since they don't interact with each other, they don't really have much chance to separate themselves from each other as individuals.

Narrative? Your problem is you have no world. A cast needs a stage. They don't have one. Therefore: champions seem pretty generic. Your truncated lore makes this worse. And as a result of that: Champion lore seems extremely derivative.

Impetual1 votes

This may be the one time I disagree with you Cupcake Trap.

I think Riot should make it perfectly clear what we can and cannot talk to them about in terms of lore and champion development.

If they tell us the rules that they need to work around, we, as a community can certainly find ways to write around them.

Riot, if you gave us some more details about your legal limitations, we could more easily post outside of them.

CupcakeTrap1 votes

{quoted}

This may be the one time I disagree with you Cupcake Trap.

I think Riot should make it perfectly clear what we can and cannot talk to them about in terms of lore and champion development.

If they tell us the rules that they need to work around, we, as a community can certainly find ways to write around them.

Riot, if you gave us some more details about your legal limitations, we could more easily post outside of them.

I think the point where we diverge is that I honestly don't think there really are any legal limitations to speak of, so I'm far from convinced that there even need to be any hard "rules". I do agree, though, that if Riot does believe that it (quite bizarrely) has strict rules about narrative content, it should at least share said rules.

Impetual2 votes

My bad, I think we agree after all.

If Riot has some rules about how they should communicate with us, they should state them openly. If there aren't any, they shouldn't be used as an excuse for not communicating.

Otherwise, we should be able to have a free and open dialogue with Rioters, without worrying about content copyright issues.

If additional agreements are needed to make that happen, bring them on Riot, we'll agree to them.

Don't use legal issues as an excuse to ignore good story ideas.

Slushi Simcambi4 votes

I made another topic like this one, but I'm glad to see more.

This concept of limiting communication with a team that already doesn't give us any content is... batshit crazy? I can't even really express how dumb it is that Narrative hasn't delivered on any form of story progression in the time they have been a unit, and then they have the gall to tell US how to communicate.

Yeah, you guys the master of community involvement are gonna tell us how to function as a community.

Sure, yeah, totally.

Gimme a break.

Ulric Greatsword3 votes

I don't have a whole lot to contribute here, but this thread could use some visibility. I really wish Narrative would at least try engaging in one of those character discussions like the Shadow Isles one they had a while ago. Anyway, have an upvote.

CaptainWednesday2 votes

I always assumed that if you posted in a public forum, such as the Boards, you couldn't go around claiming intellectual property rights unless otherwise specified on the post that the content there belongs to you and you alone.

CupcakeTrap1 votes

{quoted}

I always assumed that if you posted in a public forum, such as the Boards, you couldn't go around claiming intellectual property rights unless otherwise specified on the post that the content there belongs to you and you alone.

I don't believe that's true. However, this isn't just a public forum: this is the League of Legends official forum, and its ToA does, I think, contain a licensing provision that grants Riot an automatic license to use what you post. Even if it didn't, if you're posting your work up on a thread that's asking for ideas, it's pretty obvious that you're implicitly granting Riot a license to use those ideas. If I make a thread titled something like, "Hey, community, let's talk about ideas for Bandle City", it's pretty clear that any ideas posted there come with "please use this Riot!" subtext.

Impetual2 votes

Totally agree!

If Riot has to make us sign away our creative ownership over anything we post on these forums, so be it!

It's better than them using flaky excuses for not producing quality lore content.

Narasimha1 votes

So just to jump in for a sec, I tossed the topic at my cousin a while back (a lawyer, civil rights), and I got an interesting response. If you post something on this forum, and Riot uses it, it IS possible to bring that against them. You can actually fight on the grounds that you did not give permission for the explicit item that was used. So unless they make you sign permission for everything you post, it can actually be used against them. Plus, I've searched a bit on the forums, and I actually don't see anywhere where it says "Anything you put on these forums is ours." Well, I could have missed it, I'm coffeeless at the moment, but still.

CupcakeTrap2 votes

The following is not legal advice, and I am not an IP lawyer. (Respectfully, your cousin is not an IP lawyer either, it sounds like.)

However, to clarify, I believe your cousin was referring to use of a work, like a story. Not an idea. For example, if Riot were to copy-paste a person's story onto their site and market it as their latest bit of lore, there's a reasonable argument that they've done something wrong.

I really, really don't want to go much further down this path, and again, this is not legal advice, but a little while ago I sanity-checked my views with some friends of mine who are (very good) IP lawyers. They agreed. The two main points they emphasized were that: (1) IP law protects works, not ideas (2) a person who uses a story as an example of what Riot should do, and urges Riot to do it, is pretty plainly giving Riot permission to do so. On top of that, it's significant that this is Riot's story-verse in the first place, which would be a further obstacle to anyone claiming to have been wronged here:

"Hey! I shared a story with them that, among other things, had Garen and Darius fighting each other in Ionia, and then they wrote a story that also had Garen and Darius fighting in Ionia!" "Uh, yeah, so, who owns the IP for Garen, Darius, and Ionia?" "Well, Riot does." "And did they actually use your specific story?" "No, they didn't. But their story ALSO has Garen and Darius fighting in Ionia!" "GET OUT OF MY COURTROOM."

I really doubt that there is any genuine, informed legal objection to people sharing story ideas. I think it's just a matter of their preferences in terms of what's helpful, and specific story ideas are not where they want to focus the discussion, because it's too micro. But yes, like OP, I'd like some clarification on what they believe.

Reaper Felix2 votes

Literally logged in to upvote this. (Coming from a guy who gave up logging in after being logged out cuz reasons)

I sadly can't really add much to the discussion that hasn't already been said. Been angry and salty about the retcon, especially how poorly handled the Shurima event was, lore-wise. All I can hope is that whatever's in store for the lore that none of the narrative team could dare speak with the community about is worth the wait, otherwise I'm not inclined to invest anymore money in this game.

Keep up the good work though. Definitely understand how hard it must be to create awareness and generate discussions about the current state of things with lore and narrative team alike. Especially when we very well may be in the minority on this.

Chromatic Eagle2 votes

This is what I don't get,

Fans make a new game mode: "We love it! We'll talk about it!"

Fans make new skins: "We love it! We'll talk about it!"

Fans make new champions: "We love it! We'll talk about it!"

Fans give story ideas, whether vague or specific: "Whoa whoa whoa! We can't use that! We refuse to! We'd get sued and we have integrity!"

Impetual1 votes

Rioters, i would be really awesome if any of you could clarify the concerns discussed in these threads.

Impetual1 votes

@Rioters, could we get some specific clarification on this issue? It's pretty important.

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