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@Jaredan & Narrative: What are the exact rules for communicating?

TerraRising·3/23/2015, 7:43:17 PM·27 votes·2,095 views

Alright, gentlemen. I’m sure you’re reading this or will have someone tell you about it.

Recently, two messages from your team have caused a huge amount of consternation in this subgroup.

First was from Ant in Oz, who said:

Please don’t offer up specific story ideas – legally, we just can’t use them (the same reason I don’t read fan-fic – it’s a can of worms from a legal POV).

Then there was Jaredan's statement in another thread:

There are just certain things we can respond to and other things we can't. It's not as much the topic as it is the way we engage about it. *** I know Ant in Oz riled some folks when saying that we can't read fan-fiction. I can understand how that might appear, but it's just a truth of being a professional writer. It's partly due to the legality of it, but also because using other people's ideas, even accidentally, is stomach churning to a creative writer.*** Talking about already created stories and characters, talking about the essences of people and places of Runeterra, it's all good. Pitching an idea for a story you want us to tell? Not so much.

I tried to play your game by only talking “core concepts” about my favorite champion, Yorick. It was, to be frank, a nightmare trying to be that careful.

I had to constantly type that I wasn’t trying to offer story ideas and be as vague as possible. Worse yet, I had to remind other people to not post their story ideas and someone else accused me of doing more harm than good with my execution.

It was painful. It was disheartening. And, above all else, it felt meaningless since I had no idea if you actually read that damn thread.

So, as a request from the fanbase still here after all the nonsense we’ve gone through over the past three and a half years, do us all favor and tell us what your rules actually are.

If you want interaction with your fans, you need to start by telling us what is and is not kosher for you. Be specific, be complete, and don’t leave any doubts around. It’s become really rough around here, not being able to interact with you in any meaningful manner, and it’s entirely your fault this time.

So just tell us what the rules are, for all our sakes. Or, if you just want passive, passionless fans, just say nothing and let the fandom die.

16 Comments

CupcakeTrap3/23/2015, 9:25:24 PM15 votes

It's also, I think, more complicated than that; Jaredan, for example, mentioned that he'd read tons of League fanfic, and enjoyed it.

I agree that it would be great to get some clarification. Myself, in the meantime, I think our default should be to just talk freely, but focus on core concepts (Lana) and key thematic elements rather than the nitty-gritty of stories we'd like to read. I would say that sometimes I think you've got to get into specifics to have a really good discussion. For example, we can say "I think Lucian should come from a non-aristocratic background", and that's something, but I think you get a richer discussion if people are actually throwing around ideas like "he should be from a priestly class" or "maybe his family were merchants" or "maybe he's an orphan" or what-have-you. I don't get the impression that that's what Jaredan was describing as problematic. To be honest, and I can imagine people disagreeing, I wouldn't see a problem with "if you're looking for a new Evelynn, try reading so-and-so's Evelynn stories. I think they do a good job of bringing out her essential character." I would see an issue with Riot then directly copying those stories, of course. Depending on how I read Narrative Rioters' comments, I can see a whole range of possibilities, from extremely strict ("all of the above is illegal and you will be banned for doing so, and we'll send Phreak to key your car, too") to extremely liberal ("well, some of us would decline to read the Evelynn stories, but some of us would happily read them and discuss what elements we might borrow").

At the risk of going too deep into the weeds, my particular questions about the statements that have been made would be:

(1) Wait, what do you mean it's a can of worms from a legal POV? I think that might be more about lay rumors about how the law works than policies grounded in formal legal advice. Might be worth checking to make sure you're not acting on inaccurate assumptions about the law.

(2) I can understand how even accidentally stealing someone's work can be "stomach-churning". On the other hand, I feel like that describes a fairly limited subset of situations. In terms of appropriating characters, for instance…uhhhh, is Riot Games really anxious about this? The whole premise is "we grabbed a bunch of sci-fi and fantasy characters and threw them into a battle arena." Granted, perhaps it's different when everybody understands the reference. ("You jerk! Twisted Fate is really Gambit, a character created by a little-known studio called Marvel Comics.") But even if we're talking about ripping off, say, a fanfic character, it seems like the solution would be to ask for permission, not as a legal thing, but just as a matter of courtesy. In terms of accidental appropriation…honestly, I'm having a hard time understanding this. Isn't that a fundamental part of writing? That you read, and absorb tropes, character archetypes, themes, and so on, and that becomes part of what you draw on for your own work? "Bad authors 'borrow', good authors steal." As a final layer: doesn't it sort of change things when you're drawing from sources that are themselves community expansions on your canon? I feel like most League community members would be tickled pink for Riot to borrow their characters or other ideas, and it would take a lot of gall to object. "Hey, you're ripping off my Noxian shadow-sorcerer lady!" "Um, yeah, well, you're ripping off Noxus, so." Jaredan's been very active in the community, and it would be helpful if he could clarify what he's trying to avoid.

If Narrative has hard-and-fast rules, I'd like more clarification. If it's more about having preferences, then I think we have enough of an indication of their preferences, and they can say more later on if need be. The first step is clarifying: are we talking about strict rules, or general guidelines, or simply individual preferences?

Slushi Simcambi3/24/2015, 1:21:39 AM4 votes

I made another topic like this one, but I'm glad to see more.

This concept of limiting communication with a team that already doesn't give us any content is... batshit crazy? I can't even really express how dumb it is that Narrative hasn't delivered on any form of story progression in the time they have been a unit, and then they have the gall to tell US how to communicate.

Yeah, you guys the master of community involvement are gonna tell us how to function as a community.

Sure, yeah, totally.

Gimme a break.

Ulric Greatsword3/23/2015, 11:10:33 PM3 votes

I don't have a whole lot to contribute here, but this thread could use some visibility. I really wish Narrative would at least try engaging in one of those character discussions like the Shadow Isles one they had a while ago. Anyway, have an upvote.

Reaper Felix3/24/2015, 4:16:05 AM2 votes

Literally logged in to upvote this. (Coming from a guy who gave up logging in after being logged out cuz reasons)

I sadly can't really add much to the discussion that hasn't already been said. Been angry and salty about the retcon, especially how poorly handled the Shurima event was, lore-wise. All I can hope is that whatever's in store for the lore that none of the narrative team could dare speak with the community about is worth the wait, otherwise I'm not inclined to invest anymore money in this game.

Keep up the good work though. Definitely understand how hard it must be to create awareness and generate discussions about the current state of things with lore and narrative team alike. Especially when we very well may be in the minority on this.

CaptainWednesday3/24/2015, 1:26:07 AM2 votes

I always assumed that if you posted in a public forum, such as the Boards, you couldn't go around claiming intellectual property rights unless otherwise specified on the post that the content there belongs to you and you alone.

Chromatic Eagle3/24/2015, 11:57:07 PM2 votes

This is what I don't get,

Fans make a new game mode: "We love it! We'll talk about it!"

Fans make new skins: "We love it! We'll talk about it!"

Fans make new champions: "We love it! We'll talk about it!"

Fans give story ideas, whether vague or specific: "Whoa whoa whoa! We can't use that! We refuse to! We'd get sued and we have integrity!"

Impetual3/25/2015, 7:19:22 AM1 votes

Rioters, i would be really awesome if any of you could clarify the concerns discussed in these threads.

Impetual3/25/2015, 8:09:31 AM1 votes

@Rioters, could we get some specific clarification on this issue? It's pretty important.