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So about this Lore Retcon...

LANWhale··8 votes·2,439 views

Now I personally hate these kind of discussions so i'll try and keep this nice and short.

For any who aren't aware of this, recently Riot stated that League and the Institute of War have been removed, recently though they have said that summoners are still in the lore and the game. Now if you have read up on some of the champion's lore you would know that some of these champion's lore revolves around the League. Some champions are:

Jax Chogath LeeSin Orianna Nocturne

These champion's have the League be a big plot in their lore and with it being removed it has caused alot of disturbance. I feel that the reason poeple are, or were, outraged with the retcone wasn't because it got retcone but rather how it was handled. I would of not minded the retcone as much as i do now if it was written out with some sort of lore event happening that destroyed the League. But that's not what i'm here to talk about.

What I am here to talk about is why the sudden disconnect from game and lore?

I know some games are perfectly fine without having lore as to why all these fighters are fighting each other. The best example is Super Smash Bros, a game that has no real reason as to why and how all these iconic figures are fighting each other. An yes you can compare League and Smash Bros. why? Because that's what basically the game is right now. You have these powerful fighters, champions, fighting each other with no real reason. Now why does Smash Bros. work so well with no lore supporting why they are all fighting? Well this is where League and Smash Bros. are different, League had a reason why all these people were fighting for almost 5 years now. To remove something like that from a game is a big deal, and will probably get people mad.

So that's why i'm here, making a Discussion about something we can't overlook , i'm not asking that you tell me how Riot should of handled things and why. I want to know what your thoughts on the whole disconnect from game to lore. I mean its a pretty big deal right? People out there gotta have opinions.

36 Comments

Sneak Dog8 votes

I got attached to smash brothers' characters in other ways that smash bros. I don't care about those characters because smash bros. I just recognize them and am more inclined to play them. I was never made to believe that it mattered who these characters were anyway. The game didn't care whether I knew or not. The only thing that game does is give you some information about them with the trophies, so if you really wanted to know...

Will League now just have this entirely separate website with a giant world and story going on and the game just plucks some characters out of there and pits them in a match? Or will the lore just be a footnote. Something insignificant but if you really want to know, it's somewhere in that corner.

This might've been fine if it had been set up so from the get-go, but lore used to be important and to a significant extent, immersive. You were a summoner, with mastery over your summoning and runes to grant you more power. You had to influence champions to let them summon you. Secondly, I don't want to invest a lot of time and care into reading a story made by a company that I know retcons anything if they feel like it's appropriate.

For me, Riot will first have to proof they won't just retcon out playable characters. I cannot invest in their lore until then. They already made me feel terrible once, why should I allow them to do it again? Why don't more people care that their favorite champion could just be announced deleted tomorrow, replaced by a new one that takes over her/his kit?

LANWhale1 votes

Interesting viewpoints, I never considered the "investing" into lore concept.

Sneak Dog5 votes

If you care about a character, it means you care about what happens to them. You made an emotional investment. There's also the obvious time investment of course.

Motajo5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sneak Dog,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=JEXz8gIv,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-01-06T01:07:52.274+0000)Why don't more people care that their favorite champion could just be announced deleted tomorrow, replaced by a new one that takes over his kit?

I've probably said this elsewhere, but I care. I dread the day they inevitably alter Lux's lore. Nothing Riot's done in four years leads me to believe they will preserve her identity; I fear the worst.

Legacy of Xion4 votes

{quoted}

I've probably said this elsewhere, but I care. I dread the day they inevitably alter Lux's lore. Nothing Riot's done in four years leads me to believe they will preserve her identity; I fear the worst.

You and me both.

If they gut Kayle, there will be a reckonning. You don't fuck with Kayle mains, Lux mains...no, don't fuck with anyone's main.

Trundle mains. Never forget.

LANWhale1 votes

But what if changing a champion's lore makes it more uh not static. I mean look at Trundle, don't get me wrong I love old Trundle lore to death, but it was really static. I mean you have this troll who basically gave up his life so the rest of his kind would be spare. Amazing character role and plot, but that's it. He was only some troll that took on the disease, not much more to add upon there. Now as a troll chief we can explore his story alot more, especially with his decision of allying with Lissandra.

What i'm getting at is sure, Trundle's old lore was great but it really didn't provide any progression. And that's what Riot is looking for in retconing the lore....but man, do I miss the old Trundle.

R.I.P Trundle, Lost but not forgotten. 2009-2013

Legacy of Xion5 votes

It is clear you need to read Trundle's old judgement.

Trundle went ahead to let his tribe die when he took the blight bro. Read it up.

After that, Trundle joined the League. Which could have become so much.

Sure, new trundle has more of a future apparent. But new trundle could have been a new character. A new troll from a different tribe.

Character assassination is never okay.

Sneak Dog2 votes

Then you change it or you open up a chapter two. You don't just remove the character entirely. You're going to finish stories, why not start new ones after you do? I would've been fine with Trundle being a frost troll chieftain. My issue is that this frost troll chieftain isn't Trundle.

LANWhale2 votes

Look I get it, old Trundle was good as a character. But what i want to know is how were you going to expand on his story. Yes he takes the plague, but after the summoners tell him what the plague really does. He decided to take his revenge for all the years of being made fun of by taking the very thing that makes sure his race will survive.

What I want to know is, then what?

Hes a good character, yes, new Trundle isn't Trundle, yes. I'm not saying they should of remade Trundle into what he is know but you can see why. You have to for a moment let go of the nostalgia of the character to look at the flaws. Yes, flaws.

What was old Trundles flaw? He was complete, end of story. He holds on to the plague and lets his race dies out. There's not much to celebrate on that. And if you did then what?

Look, i was upset when they remade Trundle into a something else, but you can see why.

Sneak Dog2 votes

I can see why. as I said.

I would've also been fine with the retcon had this new troll just been Trundle like he was supposed to be. I would've preferred if Trundle just started a whole new story. His past behind him, his tribe dealt with, Trundle starts wandering. He will find something to do, a goal to pursue. He will probably meet another champion, interact. If you want to try really hard to go on with his old story though, Trundle might go after the necromancer. His tribe might go after him. He might find a lead on how to cure the curse without death as a side-effect.

A storyline ought to end at some point. The lore is continuous, so characters shouldn't go long without a storyline. Why is it impossible to start a new one after the previous one is finished?

The one thing I am not comfortable with is discarding a character once his story is finished. Then replacing him with a new one that takes over his entire in-game representation, and banishing the old one from the game and lore.

LANWhale2 votes

The one thing I am not comfortable with is discarding a character once his story is finished. Then replacing him with a new one that takes over his entire in-game representation, and banishing the old one from the game and lore.

This is why I was upset when they remade Trundle.

What i'm getting at is that this is the reason of the retcon. To allow story progression which isn't bad but when done poorly, lets say removing a champion, can lead to people getting upset. Trundle is my favorite champion in game and in his lore.

He was one of the few champions, that i felt, that his kit was based on the lore. And his lore wasn't some super hero to save the day, he took the plague and then realized it was the only reason his race was alive. That literally blew my mind. When i read that judgment I was like, " This guy is twisted and crafty...I like."

But this isn't a Discussion about Trundle, I know you and me could talk days on ends about Trundle, but that's not why were here. Although this has turned into a very nice and civil argument, its hard to come by those well at least for me. Thanks for sharing your thoughts about Trundle though, I can relate and i'm sure alot of people can as well.

Sneak Dog2 votes

Always a pleasure to have a good discussion.

Dotintheparadox8 votes

If you have a group of writers, that can't effectively connect game-play themselves, and story, despite them being already being connected by previous writers, and as a response they torch everything down to it's roots, then they should definitely not be the writers for that video-game.

As I have been saying, the current narrative team, was most likely hired under the direction of Tom Abernathy, while he was employed as their head. Despite Abernathy being let go recently, his hires most likely share his design philosophy, and as many have said, it's fine in it's own continuum, but DO NOT let him near already existing IPs. It is a design philosophy that completely disregards all existing product history, eschewing it in favor of personal preferences, only retaining appearances.

League is no longer league in primary canon, it's a boiled down doll-house now.

LANWhale3 votes

Tell me, what kind of philosophy is it? I actually don't know much about narrative since the whole hush hush tone they have know.

Dotintheparadox6 votes

Okay, there is only one other time he was given direct control over another IP, the game Halo: Reach. Even if you do not like the games, they at least try to stay faithful to the history in the books, Reach completely disregarded it, and fans of the books were pissed, and then Abernathy was no longer employed with Bungie. So, afterwards Riot decided to pick him up, because despite disregarding the MASS-SUPPORTED CANON, he's not a terrible writer, he's actually a very good writing head as well, but he should not be given control over pre-existing IPs. But at Riot he was, and then he started hiring people based on how much he liked their writing, and then he gave them significant creative and personal power. Now the old lore was no masterpiece, I will admit that, but that is basically giving someone the original "Starry Night" by Van Gogh, and then they let their kids start painting over it.

The current team is hush-hush, because what I have been saying, is the most likely scenario, and they cannot afford another bout of community back-lash. Riot does not want to have to hire another team AGAIN. Honestly the entire situation is just getting worse because no one will address this. If the narrative team wants any kind of respect from the old lore community, the need to drop all of the bl-st, they've been trying to give us, and come clean about three simple things, their writing credits, their past writing employments, and finally when they were hired. Even writers with pseudonyms, show their credits, the fact that these guys haven't is some really shady bull. Even the previous narrative team was considerate enough to let us know where they worked before, even if wasn't the best resume on their part.

The current narrative team lacks experience, and it shows way too much.

LANWhale3 votes

Ah i see, so he makes things in his own image rather than follow the lore. Huh, I mean that could be good or bad but i get what your coming at.

Dotintheparadox6 votes

In the case of an already established canon, with a rather passionate community, it's bad. I'm also honestly wondering how the writers who came up with a lot of this stuff before retcon are feeling right now, with a lot of their previous work being removed.

LANWhale1 votes

one can only imagine they are upset, much like we are...

Dotintheparadox3 votes

And yet it feels like I'm the only person whose thought about that specific aspect of the retcon, it's a blatantly disrespectful act to every writer who has been associated with Riot before it.

Darrosh Jewfist1 votes

I heard Tom Abernathy was let go as well but I can't seem to find a source on that. Can you provide a source? I'm interested mainly because I heard he made some bizarre twitter tweets when he was let go.

Dotintheparadox1 votes

He literally only talked about it once on twitter under his Riot tag, Tommygnox.

Darrosh Jewfist1 votes

Yeah. So... you got a link? Is he even still the narrative lead?

Dotintheparadox1 votes

Well, apparently he deleted his old riot tag on twitter, so now even the tweet is gone, but no, he is not the current narrative head, he was fired due to community response to the new lore.

Most people assume RiotRunaan took over, but remember it's the narrative team. They are scared godless of the community.

Twisted Sarcasm3 votes

Going to leave my thoughts here I guess.

I've been waiting awhile for anything to happen lore wise since the official retcon post, and well, basically nothing has changed. Their silence isn't helping much, though, I understand why we haven't heard anything.

Let's look at the core issue here using your Smash Bros example. Smash bros features the many characters of the Nintendo universe who all have defined identities. Another example could be the DC universe fighting games. I know who Link is, i know who Mario is, wouldn't it be cool to see them fight? I know who Superman is, i know who Batman is, wouldn't it be cool to see them fight? That's the basis behind these games and why they are so successful. The characters already have a strong IDENTITY. The backgrounds of these characters are clearly established and these games just put them all together to show them fight.

So how does this apply to league? Let's make a bunch of cool looking characters and make them fight (assuming we destroy the lore). Where is the identity? Jax Why's this guy use a lamp? He'd kick ass with a real weapon. JarvanIV Garen Lux WTF is demacia? KogMaw Chogath Khazix Velkoz Why are these guys always so hungry?

With lore, it creates a connection with the champion. It gives a deeper experience when playing the game instead of just having baseless fighting. The best reason for lore in league of legends is: Why not? You have this amazing character design and people want to know more about these characters. That's why Riot originally put in lore, which rendered a deeper player experience in the game.

Admittedly, this writing was inexperienced, which is what I assume was the cause for Riot's recent actions (their retcon article was vague about why and where they are going). Instead of changing or refining, they deleted. They removed the identity of league of legends and many of it's champions. The depth of lore was removed and effectively takes away from the game. That is why this is a big deal, it simply makes the game less fun.

People were rightfully pissed. Just look at the Riot replies on that article, downvoted to oblivion. Which now leads them to remain silent in fear of reaction. They don't want to make anymore major changes in fear of the community reaction. This only makes things worse because they aren't even fixing their mistake. I'm beginning to wonder if a lore department even exists at this point. We really need answers, it has been 4 months.

To Riot: Are your plans for lore still the same? If so, where is the lore? If not, what the fuck ARE your plans?

Probably all been said before but its what I've been thinking for what seems like an eternity now.

TL;DR: Lore creates identity for a deeper player experience. Riot deleted lore. People be pissed. Riot silent.

LANWhale3 votes

Man I feel your pain. the huge disconnect is just...bad at all perspectives you see it. And yes Riot, rather the Narrative team, being silent isn't helping at all. The retcon is a touchy subject one mistake and well they'll have a repeat of the announcing of the retcon. Which is fine not to respond to every Discussion on the matter, but to remain silent about any lore...well that's just bad.

I may have alot of patience, but one thing is for sure, it isn't **infinite **.

I want to see what they do to the lore before I can say this whole thing is bad. Like i said before I have a high regard for Riot and there decisions but at times I find it hard to support them when,

  1. Every body tells them it's bad
  2. They don't say a thing

Its hard for us huge lore fans, we invest so much time into a games lore. Only to see it get wiped off the face of the world in one blog. It makes you question who's next? Who's safe?

The Soulforged2 votes

I can see riot retconning Lux lore and actually making her an optimist... if they do that, I wish I would quit league, but I'm already addicted :*(

LANWhale1 votes

I think the real problem of such champions as Lux old Trundle and Swain. Is that the lore wasn't what made the champions memorable but rather the Judgments. If they find a way to keep these Judgments, possible as entry's in a journal or something, would probably keep alot of people happy.

I just wan't another repeat of Trundle...

R.I.P Trundle, Lost but not forgotten. 2009-2013

Motajo3 votes

{quoted}I can see riot retconning Lux

Yep, I know it's coming at some point. Lux's story is probably the last thing keeping me interested in the lore. After that gets cut, gameplay will be all that's left for me; I'm glad I usually have people to play with.

making her an optimist

It's a gray area, really. The very end of her Judgment marked a new beginning: the League of Legends gave her a home. The way I see it, she's slowly recovering over time. She's not quite hopeless, but not happy either. I see subtle bits of both the happiness and sadness inside; I don't call her an optimist, but the motes and traces of hope keep her from the other end of that spectrum. It's... well, complicated.

I dread that Riot won't see that depth, let alone preserve it. Seeing as they want characters to be consistent in all of their media, they'll probably take her positivity in-game and extrapolate that into her only trait. Or worse, they'll take her laugh and do the same.

Bresn1 votes

So summoners lay on their bed using magical copies of champions to fight in a virtual world instead of the Institute while the actual champions does crazy crap in the world.

K either Rito is being retarded or I don't know what's going on.

LANWhale1 votes

you mean, action figures plz

Bresn1 votes

Skylanders? .-.

Bresn1 votes

I think Rito gave theirselves more than they could handle.

How are you supposed to rewrite lores like Brand without affecting other champions and places and causing another chain of rewriting? This is obviously mission impossible and Rito must had noticed because I don't see much going on.

LANWhale1 votes

I'm a bit confused, you mean with the League or without it?

Sneak Dog2 votes

I think he means that not only the significant amount of champions that have the IoW as a vital part of their lore have to be rewritten, but also all champions that were connected to those have to be looked at.

So if I understand your question right, without.

LANWhale1 votes

Oh i see i actually never thought about the relationships of other champions having to be change do to the retcone, hm now i wanna see what champions' lore are going to be changed due top this.

Narasimha1 votes

I'm not sure you're using the right example. Brand had no interaction with any other champions. He was literally sealed away between fights.

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