If you think about it Talon and Quinn reworks actually quite hit the target thematically

SSShutTheDuckUp·Dec 12, 2016·38 votes·4,127 views

So, a bit ago we saw the Quinn update, which I LOVED. Despite her being beyond broken at some point she did introduce quite an interesting playstyle - roaming ADC. I actually used to play her a shit-ton mid lane- she did well in lane versus meta picks at that time, and her roams were out of this world. As for Talon - in both his and Quinn's page in the LoL Universe they are listed as related to each other and, if you think about it they (kind of) serve a similar role - an ultra mobile AD burst damage who roams around the map and... well, do their stuff (murdering people). So their rivalry from their lore is ACTUALLY brought to the rift - who of both characters would do the same thing better. And as a guy who loves lores and stories it makes me happy. And kind of sad at the same time, that both are out of the meta right now and this rivalry goes under the radar and we rarely see it in an actual game. However - to whoever came with that idea - great job. I love that rivalry being brought on the rift. You, RIOT, have my respect for that!

61 Comments

RalanrDec 12, 201628 votes

Talon's rework definitely showcased that he's not really magical at all and is just really good at his job.

Parkour is mundane but awesome.

SSShutTheDuckUpDec 12, 20163 votes

My point was the similarities between the two characters - both are ultra mobile and their signature abilities allow them to roam around the rift.

And yes - parkour is AWESOME

FlyinguillotineDec 12, 201621 votes

So skilled he has magnet blades and invisibility.

Auz the RipperDec 13, 201611 votes

He's Murder-Batman

PlacentasDec 12, 201613 votes

I miss actually being Valor though.

SSShutTheDuckUpDec 12, 20168 votes

Damn, that Attack speed steroid. However - Quinn after the rework seems to me a lot more on point. While it felt good to play as Valor at lvl 6 and in 1v1 it was a pain in the neck to be mellee lategame in 5v5. I guess it sucks to be Valor and be downgraded from an ultra mobile assassin to a taxi, but that made the champion better IMO

PlacentasDec 12, 20162 votes

Guess we have to agree to disagree... :D

-reports you-

Nah, I mean I agree with you about 5v5 but with the old Quinn I focused on split pushing and assassinating. But that meta is kinda gone anyway lol.

I just miss chasing down people as a giant bird in this game. It felt sooo..AMAZING! Catching a lone adc or mage and just shredding them to bits with your talons.

Valor BotDec 12, 201612 votes

Quinn's strength was never in 5v5 teamfights anyway. Her main strengths are high map mobility, skirmishing power, and single-target burst (with a bit of in-fight mobility tossed in there). Having these kinds of strengths means she has to be subpar at something, and thankfully Vault, coupled with Harrier and her relatively short range means her 5v5 power will naturally be lacking.

I just said this in another thread but I think it's definitely possible Valor could have been kept as a playable melee without removing Quinn's ability to roam the map at top speeds. It would have required balancing and adjustments of course, but with a bit of tweaks I think it would have been more fun and thematically appropriate than just the channeled mobility boots on steroids we have for her ultimate currently.

Removing Valor was like taking away GP's oranges -- you just don't, it's core to the character and their theme and what makes them fun, interesting, and unique. Usually ultimates exist to break the mold of a particular character anyway and I think Tag Team was an awesome example of this (i.e. Shyvana gains a dash with her ult in spite of being an immobile Juggernaut, Katarina has to stand still for her R as a mobile Assassin, Ashe has a long-range initiation tool with Enchanted Crystal Arrow, etc.)

SSShutTheDuckUpDec 12, 20162 votes

I agree with you to a point. I used to LOVE pre-rework Quinn, but I gotta agree her old R was limiting her. She had no way to lose a 1v1 in most cases, and that took a lot from her power budget. However I love her current playstyle - she is now about out-rotating, outsmarting and out-roaming opponents, and I find that pretty cool. She still has her 1v1 power with all that kite, passive procs and so on, but she also have the ability to outmaneuver everyone. And that is a pretty decent play-style both Quinn and Talon have right now, which is what made me create the topic. As I stated - I used to love her old R a lot, however - I think its current version is better and it made Quinn a better champion overall.

Valor BotDec 12, 20162 votes

It was limiting her aye, but only within the scope of the kit she had at the time. I'm sure things would have been different, if, say, Valor's old Q was a skillshot (an actual skillshot, not just an instance of AoE damage around him). Or what if they had removed Skystrike but retained the ability to play as Valor on a 0s cooldown? We'd still be able to out-rotate and out-roam our opponents with Quinn, but be able to play as Valor as well.

Don't get me wrong I love current Quinn and yes, she is stronger now and has better fallback patterns than before while also not being as oppressive. That doesn't mean they couldn't have handled the rework differently though, and made melee Valor work. Instead it feels like they just took the easy way out and removed him as a playable character from the game because they didn't have the time or resources to dedicate to that endeavor. Just imagine if Riot removed Shyvana's ability to transform into a dragon and replaced it with something else... the community would go nuts, and rightfully so -- it's a super important part of her character. Any changes made to Shyvana should respect this, just like any changes made to Quinn should keep in mind Valor is supposed to be the other half of the Champion as well.

Anywho, sorry for going so wildly off topic; I totally agree that Quinn and Talon have more parallels now than ever before (did you see my post on Reddit showing their similarities?) and I can't wait to see what Riot has planned for the both of them in terms of storytelling :)

SSShutTheDuckUpDec 13, 20161 votes

I would love to see the reddit post

Valor BotDec 13, 20163 votes

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/5hq8ay/what_are_the_biggest_mysteries_in_the_game/db2dnc0/?

KoKobotoDec 13, 20162 votes

Yeah I used to max out on CDR because I personally felt the decision making of using Tag-Team was a highlight moment for the champion and seperated experience and non-experience Quinn players. Valor has been delegated to Taxi service now which sucks. The only thing that I like about the rework is her new Q, skystrike is a lot less "WOW" now for me.

OP really making me fangasm lol

The SoulforgedDec 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I miss actually being Valor though.

I miss going from adc to assassin.

ThorgramDec 12, 20168 votes

Actually they are related because it is greatly hinted that Talon is Quinn's lost brother. I do agree that they are really interesting reworks.

SSShutTheDuckUpDec 12, 20162 votes

That is quite an interesting idea. No matter what is their relationship - is Talon Quinn's lost brother, or the Noxian assassin from her lore - they are linked to Demacia and Noxus, so it should be a rivalry. And them being so similar in goals to achieve is a masterpiece!

ThorgramDec 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Awesomeasf ck,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=HJQd6cud,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-12-12T21:46:38.540+0000)

That is quite an interesting idea. No matter what is their relationship - is Talon Quinn's lost brother, or the Noxian assassin from her lore - they are linked to Demacia and Noxus, so it should be a rivalry. And them being so similar in goals to achieve is a masterpiece!

Well, it is only valid in the old lore, so we will have to wait the Demacia/Noxus update.

Just reread the lore, and now, i don't think they are siblings. Even if their facial features are relly close. Meh, will see.

SSShutTheDuckUpDec 12, 20163 votes

Yeah, can't wait. I hope for some great stories, knowing that RIOT has actually hired writers to work on their lore

PlacentasDec 12, 20166 votes

How? Quinns brother died...he's not Talon.

"One such quest turned to tragedy when a terrible accident claimed her brother's life. Overcome with grief, Quinn abandoned her dreams of knighthood. " He's not "lost", he's dead.

"On the anniversary of her loss, Quinn gathered the courage to return to the scene of the tragedy. To her surprise, she found a wounded Demacian eagle at the site of her brother's death - a rare and beautiful bird long believed extinct. "

It can be implied Quinn witnessed her brothers death. They were on an adventure together when he died, and she returns to the spot he died.

If anything, it's supposed to be that Valor is like a reincarnation of Quinn's brother. Both brave, both now a companion of Quinn.

Really no idea where people get this Talon is Quinn's brother theory from.

Valor BotDec 12, 20162 votes

Anything can change with the new lore. Quinn and Talon's relationship is still largely unexplored. We'll see.

ChaddyFantomeDec 13, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valor Bot,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=HJQd6cud,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2016-12-12T22:11:43.389+0000)

Anything can change with the new lore. Quinn and Talon's relationship is still largely unexplored. We'll see.

Its also worth mentioning that word " Talon " refers to The claws of a bird of prey.

ThorgramDec 12, 20164 votes

Well, the theory has been around seen Quinn's release.

Quinn never mentioned how Caleb died, and this was in the Great Barrier, so he could have fell and not die.

The first phrase of Talon bio is pretty ambiguous : "Talon's earliest memories are the darkness of Noxus' underground passages and the reassuring steel of a blade. He remembers no family, warmth, or kindness." So was he an orphan ? Or did he just woke up in Noxus gutter one day ?

Of course, i don't think they were any confirmation of this, but well, who knows.

KoKobotoDec 13, 20161 votes

I'm gonna be insanely bias because I fangasm over Quinn and Talon being siblings.

They live in a rural area around Demacia so forest and mountains from Universe page, his death could have been someone not so specific like a fall from or being separated in a wildfire or storm, etc. I think one thing we can really assume is that Caleb's corpse was not found. Quinn and Caleb went on adventures on their own, at the time they were children so Quinn might have have not been entirely sure if Caleb died if he fell. Why would Quinn visit the place where Caleb "died" if they found the corpse. Wouldn't she instead visit the burial spot or something to 'see' his dead brother.

Also they have very similar playstyle/stance/looks. Who else has golden eyes other than Wukong?

Talon's lore says he knows nothing about family or warmth or anything just a knife. If he was born in Noxus or something how would he have been able to survive from being a baby to being able to remember,knowing how tough Noxus can be his survival was very thin. His natural skill with a blade, his deftness and quick wits could have been something that was developed adventuring with Quinn when young.

One thing that is a bit of a stretch is Talon somehow getting to Noxus. I used to think that he fell from a Demacian mountain or something and woke up and walked there. However looking at the Medarda Map on the universe page I realize Noxus and Demacia are pretty dang far away from each other. Still maybe he hitch-hiked?

I don't think we can fully rub out them not being siblings or vice versa until we get more story.

On a side-note I don't even think them being siblings would matter much, sure Quinn might care A LOT, but Talon not so much. Talon has no memory of what happened before and could be like "OH I HAVE FAMILY NOW <3" but most likely will be like "wtf no way am I related to some bird-b%!^@" and continue his search for General Du Couteau.

Gotta wait for lore updates, here's a interesting theory http://rain-quill.deviantart.com/journal/Talon-Caleb-Theory-406202501 I main Quinn(BOT LANE) and this theory alone got me to main Talon second.

PlacentasDec 13, 20162 votes

Saying you can't "rub out" this theory is because you don't want to, not because it's logical not to.

"Still maybe he hitch-hiked?" you see how much you're stretching. First off, if he did fall and manage to survive, who the hell is going to be in some pit or the bottom of a chasm to give him a ride to Noxus from Demacia? And why would they be traveling from Demacia to enemy territory of Noxus?

And just because the lore does not go into detail about his death, but at the same time explicitly says he did die, does not mean you can take that information and go "Well that could mean he got separated during a wildfire", no, just no, that's horrible writing. The author states he died, read that information, and accept it. There is no alluding towards any kind of miracle event in which Quinn's brother survived.

And to answer your first question, it's not uncommon at all to visit the site of a tragic accident. It's a coping mechanism to deal with the tragedy that occurred on that spot in order to move forward. Not sure how you don't understand that. It's not the same as visiting a burial site or marker. This in itself is enough to show me you have a limited point of view and once you experience more of the world you'll stop clinging to theories that dont make sense because you understand what's written in between the lines.

This whole theory is literally just fans not wanting to let go to a theory that doesn't even make sense. It's mostly based off of "talons are on birds, quinn has a bird".

MogarlDec 13, 20162 votes

Woah now. While I agree that it is improbable it has been established by Riot that Champion Bio's are typically told from the champion's perspective. So if Quinn is certain her brother died, her bio will say he died. Quinn and Caleb also seem like the kind of duo that may not just go on an adventure for a day, but may have been going on week long expeditions. This could at least get them near the border of Demacia/Noxus. Finally if we are unsure of how he died, he could have fallen into a river, and been washed away even closer to Noxus.

It would be a MASSIVE stretch, and there really isn't any explicitly stated evidence that would give a whole lot of reason to believe a theory that is so far out there. So I'm going to have to go with a probably not, but there isn't any explicitly stated evidence that says "No this theory is wrong.".

PlacentasDec 13, 20161 votes

"One such quest turned to tragedy when a terrible accident claimed her brother's life. Overcome with grief, Quinn abandoned her dreams of knighthood. "

It does...

MogarlDec 13, 20163 votes

Again it's a fact based on Quinn's perspective. Even if the accident never had a body recovered then Quinn is still free to believe her brother died. For the purpose of the her bio there would be no point mentioning that her brother totally didn't die or that there was never a body found. The fact that Quinn believes her brother died is important for Quinn's development so her bio says her brother died.

Again, I too think the whole thing is a little far fetched, but I will defend to my death that it being false is not set in stone.

KoKobotoDec 14, 20161 votes

My hero <3

KoKobotoDec 13, 20164 votes

"Still maybe he hitch-hiked?" you see how much you're stretching. First off, if he did fall and manage to survive, who the hell is going to be in some pit or the bottom of a chasm to give him a ride to Noxus from Demacia? And why would they be traveling from Demacia to enemy territory of Noxus?

The hitch-hike thing is a bit of a stretch but we can make it work. You're making the assumption that he landed in the middle of a pit or chasm which may be true but I'm gonna make the assumption that this is not the case. He might have fallen down a mountain and got lost in any kind of way and managed to survive but not land in a completely secluded place. They live on the outsides of Demacia and they COULD adventure further out, so perhaps some Noxus folks picked him up at the border.

It's comparable to Taliyah's story where she gets away from Noxian folk and doesn't just meet Yasuo, but collapses a bunch of snow and rock on him in the middle of no where ensuring they're gonna get a connection. A Noxian being on the outskirts of Demacia, say doing spy work or with a band of people raiding some rural areas doesn't sound like too much of a 'miracle'.

And just because the lore does not go into detail about his death, but at the same time explicitly says he did die, does not mean you can take that information and go "Well that could mean he got separated during a wildfire", no, just no, that's horrible writing. The author states he died, read that information, and accept it. There is no alluding towards any kind of miracle event in which Quinn's brother survived.

The author could have wrote by child Quinn's perspective. This is similar to how a ton of people are getting worked up about Viktor from Jayce's lore perspective. I understand they don't want their character to be turned into a villain psychopath but they don't realize they are reading Viktor from Jayce's perspective. In the Piltover story about Tamara, she explicitly says she calls Piltover her home but later on is revealed to be a warmason from Noxus. This shows that character perspective can have a greater effect on writing then you think and also that Noxians get around a lot.

And to answer your first question, it's not uncommon at all to visit the site of a tragic accident.

Yes I know this, but why would Quinn visit the scene of the tragedy over first visiting his place of rest. It takes courage to do both. The thing is we don't KNOW if she did or did not visit his place of rest, everything surrounding Caleb's death is pretty murky except for Quinn believing he died.

This whole theory is literally just fans not wanting to let go to a theory that doesn't even make sense. It's mostly based off of "talons are on birds, quinn has a bird".

It is NOT mostly based off of the bird thing. The main points that make up the theory are similar appearance/similar fighting stance/ similar playstyle/similar abilities/Caleb's blurred death/Talon's blurred youth. If anything that's just a meme people stick onto the end of their theories to joke about. However it still does connect them a bit. It's like if their was a theory connecting Nami and Casiopeia together after I get through all the important points I would say at the end "they also don't have leg!".

ChaddyFantomeDec 13, 20164 votes

This was something i actually noticed as well! Glad I'm not the only one you can't get enough of these connections! Its also neat how they also counter and compliment eachother. Quinn has a reveal on W and her Q removes vision, while Talon's Ult makes him invisible Talon Wounds champs while Quinn makes them Vulnerable. Quinn Roam around through lanes super fast while talon goes over walls.

I honestly wanna see a Talon v Quinn event in the game.

SSShutTheDuckUpDec 13, 20162 votes

{quoted} I honestly wanna see a Talon v Quinn event in the game.

Listen to this man, RIOT

CresmontDec 13, 20161 votes

waaaaaaaaaaaaay too situational and theyre not explicitly rivals unlike rengar and khazix

ShrîkeDec 13, 20164 votes

Difference being, Quinn makes a better assassin than talon right now.

CresmontDec 13, 20161 votes

as someone who plays the new talon, i want you to know jsut how right you are

ShrîkeDec 14, 20161 votes

Quinn main that has played the new Talon ;)

CresmontDec 14, 20161 votes

That's why I usually take him top to abuse the melee q :^)

QuínnDec 13, 20164 votes

Are you kidding? Quinn's rework basically killed Valor. Now we just have bloody Taxi...

#RIPValor. Gone, but never forgotten.

Hello I am BirdDec 13, 20162 votes

Valor is in all of quinn's abilities, and her passive

Sure, you don't turn into valor anymore, but it didn't make sense why Quinn disappeared anyways

Passive: Valor marks target Q: Throw Valor W: Valor scouts E: Procs Passive R: Valor carries Quinn

Valor BotDec 13, 20161 votes

Sure, you don't turn into valor anymore, but it didn't make sense why Quinn disappeared anyways

Eh, lots of things in League don't make sense though. Tahm Kench ulting on dry land, Jinx somehow fitting a mega rocket into her tiny gun (same with Ashe and her giant arrow), Skaarl "disappearing" when his health depletes, to name a few. In all of those cases, we're supposed to take logical leaps and assume certain things are happening even if the animations don't support them (i.e. we have to pretend Tahm Kench is traversing the river even if he just dove headfirst into the concrete, we have to pretend Skaarl is actually hiding in a nearby bush even if his model isn't physically there, etc).

I'm sure if Quinn's old ult actually had an animation that showed her leaping out of sight before Valor swooped in to take over it would have made much more sense visually. For example, they could have made it so that upon pressing R, Quinn's model latches onto nearby terrain (maybe like Camille in the middle of her hookshot) while Valor comes down from the sky to take her place, and then upon reactivating R Quinn leaps from that piece of terrain and dives down in a hail of arrows upon Valor's location.

Idk, I just think a lot of the confusion regarding Tag Team was due to it not being supported by the proper visuals. It looked more like she was transforming into Valor than swapping with him which is obviously a problem in terms of understanding what the character is doing.

Also I just want to point out that just because Valor is in all of Quinn's abilities doesn't really mean it makes him feel like an actual character. Right now Valor is a particle effect, nothing more, nothing less -- he's an animated image made to decorate Quinn's abilities, rather than an interactive in-game entity with his own abilities, stats, etc that the enemy is forced to deal with in addition to Quinn (which is ideally what he should be rather than a bird-shaped missile).

Not to mention that if something is important and characteristic enough of a Champion, those things are worth keeping -- once again, like Gangplank's oranges. You wouldn't expect a murderous, badass pirate to be peeling citruses in his spare time and eating them to cure disease, or laughing while raining a barrage of cannonballs across the map from seemingly nowhere. But that's what he does, that's what players love about GP and know him for so Riot decided those things should stay. I'm not sure why the same courtesy can't be extended to Quinn and Valor.

LeBlanc RoseOct 13, 20171 votes

Tahm Kench I'm pretty sure (pure speculation, but his animation shows it), creates water to dive down into.

GehcoDec 13, 20163 votes

I want to add that the lore states that he died not that he was buried, it just says that he died and quinn witnessed it. Dying could mean he fell off from on top of a mountain, like the great barrier, which is hinted in the story. Also wouldn't it make sense that when her brother died, she would tell this to her parents and her parents would come to retrieve the body to bury him near their home? Why did she go back to the spot year after year to commemorate her brothers demise when she could have easily just went to his grave where they buried him near their home? If Quinn travelled to the barrier every year to remember her brother that means that is where she last saw him. Since she was a young kid when it happened, maybe she assumed he died because he fell from the barrier?

AwoofDec 13, 20163 votes

Part of Quinn's thematic was being "Quinn and Valor", so I wouldn't say it quite hit the target thematically. Unless you mean the thematic they wanted to push her in, then yeah.

Brain Errör 404Dec 13, 20161 votes

Still better than Lamb and Wolf -- oh, I mean Kindred.

SirHeavyScrotumDec 13, 20162 votes

I really miss old Quinn. She was really fun. New Quinn is fun too, but IMO old Quinn was more fun. Her ult basically made her into an assassin, which was awesome. It also didn't look gay as hell, I still can't get used to how weird it looks when Valor carries Quinn around.

FrostySkipperDec 13, 20162 votes

TALON X QUINN Kreygasm

SSShutTheDuckUpDec 14, 20162 votes

I believe Quinn X Jarvan IV is more of a thing, but whatever :)

ABlueQuakerDec 15, 20162 votes

Quinn rework was fucking pathetic considering the champion was almost released as 'Quinn & Valor'. IMO they removed half of her theme.

GehcoDec 14, 20161 votes

I bow down as a humble servant and slave to the future Queen of Demacia Quinn and the future King of Demacia Jarvan IV. And I kiss Jarvan's armored boot with pride.

SSShutTheDuckUpDec 14, 20161 votes

https://media.giphy.com/media/glmRyiSI3v5E4/giphy.gif

GehcoDec 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Awesomeasf ck,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=HJQd6cud,comment-id=00100000,timestamp=2016-12-14T12:37:27.960+0000)

https://media.giphy.com/media/glmRyiSI3v5E4/giphy.gif

you know what I mean bro, JarQuinn for the win!