Regarding: @Tamat's Proposal For Easier Communication With Narrative

TerraRising··24 votes·1,971 views

In his Lore redirect thread, Tamat proposed the following:

My biggest piece of feedback for everyone here is that you need to make them feel more welcome, and less like they have to walk into a lions den to talk with you.

Now, ignoring the fact that lore fans have, off and on over the past three years, attempted to reach out and seek any attention from Narrative, only to be met with: • Long periods of silence. • Forced changes with no warning or discussion. • Promises of more communication and more content which are then broken. • Exasperated pleas of “Why can't you just like this?” • Contempt when we give reasons why it shouldn't be changed the way it's being done. • More silence that feels like haughtiness as the cycle continues.

This has created an environment of mistrust, frustration, and anger among the fan base. Without a doubt, Narrative's "relationship" with their fans is the one example where Riot's statements of “we do what we do for our community” is an outright bald-faced lie.

Certain recent dismissive comments and inappropriate movie quotes from Narrative team members have not helped matters at all, either.

Tamat, you seem to think these feelings of mistrust, frustration and anger are something that can be suppressed “for the sake of communication with Narrative.”

I would say that Narrative created this environment among their most passionate fanbase and they should be willing to endure our mistrust, frustration and anger. After all, they're in charge of the conversation and they should be more than capable of starting discussions and making responses in a healthy way.

However, for the sake of discussion, what would you propose we, the passionate fans of Riot's lore, do to “make them feel more welcome?”

23 Comments

LordHippoman18 votes

To be honest, there's no excusing some of the things the Lore Discussion boards said to Tom Abernathy and Opeli. Death threats are never okay, especially over a videogame. I can entirely understand why Riot would be upset with the response. The issue is that most of the people saying that shit weren't the usual populace of the Lore forums. I've stuck around these boards for 3-4 years, and not once had I seen the guy who called Opeli a "dumb broad", or the guy who threatened to rape her, etc. These trolls became the face of the Lore Forum, and that's the problem. The new Lore team probably doesn't see us as the people who got excited and talked about Kalamanda, Freljord, and that sort of thing for pages upon pages. It would be easier to see us by our most extreme, a bunch of people making threats and screaming at them. But those people are rarely even among us.

You can hate the retcon. I hate the retcon. But we can be respectful about it and tell them why we don't like it and how to avoid those situations instead of criticizing every word out of their mouths. It's way easier to get communication by saying "We take issue with this, but see your reasoning, here's how you can avoid it in the furture" than saying "Hey, I'm gonna break in your house and snap your neck for messing with Xerath's backstory!!!!!"

lorewise5 votes

So much this.

I'm very disappointed in the direction the Narrative Team is taking but I can't blame them for not wanting to engage with the community.

CupcakeTrap6 votes

I support this thread, but wish the OP (TerraRising) would delete the "inappropriate movie quote" remark. I was genuinely astonished to see the forum crowd react that way to her post. I'm not saying that as a rhetorical device: I really was shocked. I related it to a friend of mine: "There was an argument about lore, a Rioter meme-responded with 'that's like, just your opinion, man', and people started calling for her to be fired." He was just as astonished as I was. Really out of line. Then I saw the death threats, and that's when I got really angry. I disagree quite vehemently with the Narrative team's approach so far, but if forced to choose between attacking the new lore or telling those forumers to settle the fuck down, I'd choose the latter every time. (Fortunately, I can have both: I can request civility and cooperation, while urging Riot to rethink its lore strategy.)

So please, let's just drop that entire unfortunate topic. Bringing it up doesn't earn points. It just makes the entire lore community look bad.

We don't need it, either. There are plenty of very legitimate reasons to be ticked off. Let's focus on those. Mine catchphrases from those: deleting the League of Legends from League of Legends, kicking us out of Runeterra, whatever. You're burning plastic when you have a stack of hardwood at your feet.

mtman3185 votes

From what I understand, the movie quotation alone wasn't the problem. It was the fact that it was the first Riot post on that particular thread (about the Shurima champion lore blurbs being canon), and if I remember correctly it was the first Riot post in the Lore Forums in months. Even worse, I think she made the comment just after the infamous Dev Blog post too. So understandably, people were in a particularly foul mood over the whole thing--and the fact that the first Riot post was a very flippant sounding remark was and still is inappropriate (regardless of how inappropriate a lot of the backlash was too). It doesn't matter if it was just a joke, you simply do not respond like that to legitimate customer concerns.

Here's an example for comparison: There's this awesome burger place that opens up, and you become one of its regular customers. After going there regularly for a few years, you come one day to order a burger, and when you get it it's completely overcooked, hard, shriveled up, etc. Naturally, you go up to the register and say, "Hey, you call this a burger? Look at this, it's rock hard, it tastes like straight charcoal, (etc), you expect us to be satisfied with this?" And the employee's response is, "That's just, like, your opinion, man. I'd totally eat that."

What would your reaction be? That would get a rise out of most--if not all--people, and many would call for that employee to be fired or at least reprimanded in some way. The employee would deserve it too. Hence, I don't think that's an inappropriate response towards Riot Opeli, though a little strong I admit.

Of course it didn't end there, either. After people called her out on her terrible response to our concerns, she then went on Twitter to complain about it. Multiple times. Completely unprofessional. She should have been taken off the lore team in my opinion, or at least have her forum/board privileges revoked--but unfortunately the entire company (or at least the lore team) is unprofessional along with her. I think it was here when the death threats started (always inappropriate), and I suspect Riot started using this as an excuse to assume everyone concerned about the lore were a bunch of ravenous hyenas ready to pounce on them once any of them start to respond to our concerns in any way (the one exception being Tamat and a few others after the old forums were closed without announcement--but they too seemed nervous about the whole thing, as was pointed out in the OP).

In conclusion, I don't think it's wrong for TerraRising to mention this in the OP. It's just one more thing to add to the list of problems you listed too. For me, the only noticably good thing (or improvement) to happen recently lore-wise is the Sion Rework.

Chromatic Eagle6 votes

They can't reveal most details, but it would help if we knew how they plan on rebuilding the world without the league. Like with the Poppy thread, actually ask us how we view a character before they make a change to their lore. We don't want another Trundle, or potentially Xerath.

Also while they need to moderate the forums for threats and trolling, they need to accept that for some fans, the trust is broken. No matter what they do, they won't win back all of their fans, and many will explain why. Salvage the ones you can by being honest and competent. I can't stress competence enough. We don't want to deal with massive retcons anymore.

Irongrinder4 votes

However, for the sake of discussion, what would you propose we, the passionate fans of Riot's lore, do to “make them feel more welcome?”

We can't.

I've been here since pre-Season One, and it's *always *been this way with the narrative team. You know what the best indicator for future behavior is? Past behavior. Riot's narrative team will **never **interact with its audience the way we want them to, because it ultimately doesn't matter. They'll nod, pretend to ponder (if they feel like it), and then go ahead with their original plans anyway, no matter how unpopular they may be.

Welcome to the Age of RetGones, boys and girls. Get used to it.

Diahane3 votes

Those who were rude, threatening and/or went overboard should be shunned by the community and rightly banned, as it has always been the case with properly moderated communities, so the argument that they shouldn't hang around here because some of us are toxic is ridiculous, because that would mean that no one should play the game either for the same reason! A lot of trolls and flamers are present every game, nonetheless we still step in the Fields of Justice (hyronically, I shouldn't call them that way anymore, since they are canon no more) because we, item the first, know that not everyone is a toxic player and, item the second, because we are passionate about the game. So, either the lore department thinks of us, those who care enough about lore to come here on the boards (which don't even have a link in lol's EUW frontpage), that we are all criminal-like-minded people, or they just aren't passionate enough about their work to be challenged by the communities ideas about it. So, well, if things are this way should we all become yes-men (and -women) and say "please, dear lore department, retcon whatever you like, whenever you like, however you like and how many times you like, for you truly are the enlightened and superior ones we crave to listen and be educated by"? Dissent and its show of it is the most democratical thing, so why not come here and discuss? They can still then say "we decided to go this way, because of the reason we disserted about, so we're not retracing our steps back", but at least we'll have some form of dialogue and show of respect. Why should they respect us? Well, it's them who aim to be the most player focused company in the world, so it's actually their phylosophy to do so =/ It doesn't make sense of them to not listen to their players so blatantly. If there's a rework of a character's gameplay, they discuss it, they hear, they remind you the feedback is being read; they still follow their development line, but that's fine, Riot has professionals to take the best decisions for their company, which usually are the best for the majority of players, so no one can rightly ask to start polls everywhere whenever something needs to be made or redone. We don't ask this for the lore neither, we don't actually can ever dream of getting them to let us choose their course of actions, that would be silly, but how can discussing changes with us hurt in any way? To put it simply, the gameplay guys do a better work at communicating and though we may not agree with their decisions we can share with them our impressions and be heard and keep up a constructive discussion. On the other hand, the lore department just goes "meh" at us and dismisses our opinions without even bothering to say somewhere that they're actually listening to them. Really, to be heard and have it recognized that we are heard and might keep our feedback and concerns present for the future, that is what this is all about. Those who complain about old lore are obviously people who at least knew it and cared about it. We are some of the people who followed the JoJ, some of those who speculated about the plot unfolding, we are some of those who are passionate enough about this game and its story that we lose our time complaining to this virtual wall of a board where we know we will be unheard. Some may be rude and that I won't excuse, no one should be, here or elsewhere. To keep proper etiquette and netiquette is most vital a value and we should, as a community, remind this to those who cross the line and proceed to shun them, so as to show their behaviour is not appreciated nor tolerated. But in any group of people you will find bad and good ones, you can't stop talking to a community because of toxic individuals. So, to wrap this all up, I feel offended and hurt at Riot's lore department current management of communication and community feedback. We are outright ignored and relinquished when we file any complaint that is not in line with their route. We shouldn't be treated as outcasts, we are players, we are readers, we are their fanbase.

GenoXx1 votes

This is why those said rioters need to stop goin to toxic-like threads. And find ones with a more positive attitude. They certainly do that...

ModCaptainMårvelous3 votes

I just wish the lore team would take more fan ideas or hire people/offer internships to those who have shown legitimate skill in the lore. Like that Cupcake guy who ran the factions, he should definitely be getting some form of recognition for his work.

brusque3 votes

I left a kind of long reply on the redirect thread, but I guess I should've left it here. Here's the link.

TL;DR

*Here's my question for all the people who are criticizing the lore changes and whatnot: why on earth do you feel so entitled, as fans of the lore, to be a direct influence in its direction? *

  • Offer constructive feedback to the lore team.
  • Constructive feedback is actionable, is objective, and puts aside your grudges with the team. It objectively looks at what's happening now and what we have today. Hand-wavey story devices to "re-include summoners" in the lore is not an actionable idea, either.
Neon Robot1 votes

[deleted]

brusque1 votes

What exactly do you mean "Hand-wavey" story devices?

Sorry for not clarifying here. "Hand-wavey" story devices have a few characteristics, but most of what I mean has to do with logic. So sure -- the Institute of War explained "League of Legends" and gave context to "summoners" and the "game" that they played in an arena to solve political disputes, but in this case the IoW stands as a deus ex machina -- and a pretty strange one. When a plot device (like the IoW) becomes the driving motivational force for every single character's appearance in a game (lorelorelore..."and then he joined the League of Legends to prove his worth!!") then something is wrong. Your story becomes circular. You lose the ability to create cogent storylines bred from innate character logic that advance a flowing, overarching narrative.

I'm sorry, but no matter how you frame it, it really pains me to know that Katarina and Cassiopeia, whose histories extend back years and years, far back into the old noble blood of Noxus, could just blatantly be ripped from their world and pitted against each other in a battle where they'll feel physical death over and over but not actually die. And then, when they get out of their "match", they might even be solving a political dispute that's in favor of Demacia. Hell, they might even be fighting for Demacia. Then, Katarina goes out and decides she's going to assassinate someone in Demacia, even though she just helped them win a charter to seize half of Noxus. This doesn't even make sense.

Let me just be very clear: I am fairly neutral about the summoners/IoW thing. Do I think that they can work as plot devices? Absolutely. But it has to be bred from character interactions, personas, and motivations--and it has to be consistent. That means that if the IoW were to be successful, it would logically require that characters who have friendships or who are blood relatives don't engage in battles to the death against each other. There are some dysfunctional families out there, but come on. Darius isn't going to put an axe in his brother's back to solve the political problems of Ionia, because he doesn't give a shit. Draven is his brother. Darius would rather take Draven and run away than have to see himself kill his own blood.

There are are many people whom have an attachment to the concept of summoner and feel it should be re-included. Can you provide an example of what you might consider an acceptable approach to their reintroduction?

Sure. I have an attachment to summoners as well. Here is an example of how they can be reincluded into the lore, along with the IoW. Here is a story that's true to the nature of characters in League of Legends (well, as true as it can be, of course), without affirming or denying the presence of summoners and the IoW. While I hate to admit this because it's kind of a spoiler, this story has already hinted at the presence of summoners if you read it, but in a completely different way. So here's an example of how it can be done. Is it the only way? Of course not. But it's a way.

Edit: Also, @Nastra Dark, when I mentioned turning summoners into divine beings I wasn't trying to rap on your idea. It just seems to be a pervasive and prominent suggestion that I keep hearing a lot, and I personally don't think it's a concept that is true to the champions of League.

Cookiehime2 votes

@Brusque

I'm not sure how the IoW is classified as a Deus Ex Machina. It is a rather well-established entity as far as I know and does not really come out of nowhere to solve an unsolvable problem. If you're thinking about Kalamanda, then I agree that it could have left that impression. But the nexus that the summoners used to amplify the magical enchantments was completely destroyed after it achieved its purpose and they also requested the help of Zilean to create the time-bubble. They would have been powerless without Zil and the nexus. That was the only time the Summoners actively served their true purpose, aka preventing another Rune War, and they had to dispatch around 400-600 summoners IIRC. If you're thinking about the intervention of adjudicators during the fight between Malzahar and Kassadin, it did not happen out of the blue. Malzahar beckoned Kog’Maw to lead the Institute towards him so they would interrupt the fight and save his skin. It may not seem that way to you but he has consistently had people play into his hands during the few times he appeared in the JoJ. It is one of his character traits.

So, why can’t the IoW be used as a tool rather than being the sole motivation of characters? Let it stay in the background if the writers don’t want to focus on it, but at least the characters would be mildly connected to the League. Just stop shoe-horning the reasons if you wish, but provide a logical piece of the story where they would eventually end up in the League, as a part 2 or 3 to their original bio. Being part of the League is unfortunately a requirement. So, be creative while making interesting situations that would lead the characters into the League at one point in time. They would not be stuck there forever. Characters can die or quit the League.

So, to explain how we can still use them in spite of such constraints, I’ve come up with a simple idea. This can also resolve the problem you’re having with allies fighting against themselves, duplicates on both teams or champions supposedly aiding their enemies on the political stage. However, know that in the true canon, this would never happen. The Ionia vs Noxus match is proof enough. (That's just a suggestion and I'm not forcing that idea on anyone, but if it can resolve the issues people are having, then, take it.)

Why Summoners can use enemy champions on the same team and duplicates?

Because champions often choose to be part of the Institute and have their own reasons for doing so (minus prisoners like Brand and Nocturne), they should allow the IoW to collect some vital information about them such as their biological and psychological data. This allows Summoners to make a near-exact replica of the Champions as they have most of the basic vital information about them (surface level) stored in their archives (just like how they made a replica of Baron Nashor and Dragon). The High Councilor from Zaun takes care of those matters, collaborating with the High Councilor representing Piltover to create those replicas. Champion replicas are mere puppets and mcuh weaker versions of the genuine champions to be used by Summoners for practice or entertainment. The normal matches we play are mere skirmishes.

The "real" champions will fight for their cause in rare instances like lore matches since they are not mindless puppets but are rather individuals assisted by Summoners to settle their conflict. They are however still bound by the contract where they are not allowed to kill one another outside the FoJ and their stories simply continue, as usual (although, it IS possible for champions to kill one another, just as long as they're out of sight from the Institute and never caught-- exactly like how police can't stop every crime from happening). Champions can die or leave the Institute, but they won't be available in canon lore matches since they are no longer considered part of the League.

brusque1 votes

I'm not sure how the IoW is classified as a Deus Ex Machina. It is a rather well-established entity as far as I know and does not really come out of nowhere to solve an unsolvable problem.

As an established plot device for the ecosystem of League of Legends it's not a deus ex machina. In the context of a lot of the champions, however, the League/IoW were a deus ex machina in their own individual lores. It's definitely possible that there is a better word out there to describe what I mean, but I don't know it.

Why Summoners can use enemy champions on the same team and duplicates?

So regarding this and the explanation you have set out to provide about summoners, I think it's interesting and is something that can be presented in front of a larger forum of people to dissect. It's an example of an actionable idea that can be discussed openly.

My main point of criticism with what you've laid out is that it doesn't give me any explanation as to how the replication of the champions affects the actual people. Are these champions all right with just giving up biological samples of themselves for use in some puppet sport? I can think of forty champions off the top of my head who would rather kill the person trying to take their DNA than participate in a puppet entertainment scheme.

If there is no consequence on the physical bodies and/or minds of the champions in this particular magic or replication process, then it is not doing anything to advance or deepen the real core of those characters, since they don't really have any vested interest to react to it. This weakens the idea considerably, since it further alienates the champions from the players--which is what everyone is purporting the retcon is doing anyway, right? The entire point of rewriting the lore, I think (and please correct me if I am wrong) is ultimately to give you a more intimate understanding of the champions than what you currently have.

I think before what you laid out can be a viable strategy that it needs to go through more iteration.

Cookiehime2 votes

As an established plot device for the ecosystem of League of Legends it's not a deus ex machina. In the context of a lot of the champions, however, the League/IoW were a deus ex machina in their own individual lores. It's definitely possible that there is a better word out there to describe what I mean, but I don't know it.

Then I guess it'll be ok to remove mention of the IoW in certain character bios. However, the IoW would still exist and the champions' reason for being there would have to be interwoven in the overall story instead of being mentioned in the bio. For example, judgments did a pretty decent job with that. One saw the character's past and persona but their reasons for being in the League was not flat-out stated. There's also my fave character Malzahar whose story, motive and reason for being in the League were unveiled little by little with the JoJ and the bios of Kog'Maw and Cho'Gath. The mention of "League of Legends" in his bio could literally be removed and replaced by something more mysterious and people would have slowly figured out what his real reason for going to the IoW was with the help of the other pieces of story. Those pieces, imo, were very well woven into the overarching plot and did not make the reason feel contrived. It flowed naturally and I could figure it out by myself.

My main point of criticism with what you've laid out is that it doesn't give me any explanation as to how the replication of the champions affects the actual people. Are these champions all right with just giving up biological samples of themselves for use in some puppet sport? I can think of forty champions off the top of my head who would rather kill the person trying to take their DNA than participate in a puppet entertainment scheme.

Yes. The IoW is, imo, a lawful neutral entity. Their sole purpose is to prevent a Rune War. They could have questionable ethics and may use dubious tactics to reach that goal. In fact, there were cases of corruption within the Institute that were implied in the final JoJ entries. That already paints them with shades of gray. They are not goody-two-shoes. Summoners are individuals. There could always be some black sheep who stray from their purpose. No matter what their role or true motives are, Summoners are characters too. So, like Nastra Dark said before me, Summoners may create replicas without the champions' knowledge. They could collect all the data they need during the mind-delving process in the Reflection Chamber. It is highly unethical, but it is implied that Summoners are not heroes.

If there is no consequence on the physical bodies and/or minds of the champions in this particular magic or replication process, then it is not doing anything to advance or deepen the real core of those characters, since they don't really have any vested interest to react to it. This weakens the idea considerably, since it further alienates the champions from the players--which is what everyone is purporting the retcon is doing anyway, right? The entire point of rewriting the lore, I think (and please correct me if I am wrong) is ultimately to give you a more intimate understanding of the champions than what you currently have.

The replicas can be sentient constructs. Perhaps, I treated them with too little respect. They should be treated as equally as the true champions by the Summoner and form a teamwork relationship. In the former setting of the League, when champions interacted with players with some lines of dialogue, they did not feel like puppets. For example, Cho would taunt the person controlling him. He is really trying to corrupt the Summoner directing him on the FoJ ("SUMMONER, YOUR DARKNESS BECKONS!", "AFRAID OF THE DARK? GOOOD.", etc.). Without those lines, it seems as though the characters are not aware of the presence of the Summoner. That's my main gripe with the removal of Summoner references. The characters seem to be talking to themselves and not the player. Those interactions subtly told you what kind of character they were.

GenoXx2 votes

Lore fans nowadays makes it impossible for any of them to talk to us. No one likes going to people who are just gonna shit talk them when they do come. I don't blame them now for not really talking nowadays. I was upset about the long wait too, but you don't see me trying to gain their attention so that I can try to prove that I can write a better story or how the old lore was better. Quite frankly you guys aren't giving them a chance to show what they have in store now. Yea, I would probably turn the other way too before think about trying to say hi to my fans if that's all im goin to get.

Neon Robot2 votes

[deleted]

brusque2 votes

Absolutely. The Sion rework was a very successful example of how a champion's backstory, inner thoughts, and way of thinking about the world around him can be intricately woven into an experience. What happens now is that, when you play the hulking juggernaut that is now Sion, you become Sion. You know what he's thinking, you know why he moves so clunkily, you know why he's gigantic, and it's fantastic. Furthermore, how the "lore" or this idea of Sion as an actual person with real thoughts is actually tied into the gameplay is actually amazing. I tried him on PBE, and I got butterflies when I used his ultimate for the first time -- because I was like, holy shit. My screen. I can't move my screen. And that made me feel a little bit like Sion, too: trapped in endless rage.

I also think Shurima, though it did not deliver the complexity of story that is seen in Sion's work, was very successful. When I play Azir and I raise a sun disc on a broken turret, and I have three soldiers around the enemy team who come up from the sands, I feel like a fucking emperor. Shurima delivered on that regard.

So what we're seeing is a trend towards MORE immersion into the champions, not less. I'm very excited for what comes next.

Sneak Dog1 votes

It's hard to just make them feel welcome if all my posts about Trundle have been seemingly ignored by Riot, despite me having good discussion with the community, changing my view but never being outright proven wrong. This has been going on since the Freljord and it feels terrible to only have a couple (I think two, one of which is recent) posts of non-lore department Rioters stating that Trundle might not be the same while the lore department currently states they want to keep champions' identities the same.

If they keep making controversial decisions this is going to rub some of us the wrong way. They'll get some negative responses. But just keeping quiet makes all of us frustrated about the lore. Engage in discussion, tell us why you did what you did and not what we propose as alternative, and we'll start being more understanding. I realise posting on the boards is entirely voluntarily, but not doing so only makes us more frustrated.

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