So whenever Noxus finally invades Piltover, the following are the questions I have:
Would Urgot help defend Piltover just to spite Noxus?
What champions would help with the invasion, and what kind of interactions would they have with Urgot?
(Not related to Urgot) Would Demacia send help to Piltover to keep hextech out of the hands of Noxus?
Helmight7 votesDemacia is isolationist and fairly distant from Piltover, not to mention the fact that they'd probably regard Piltover's hextech as being similar to magic. I highly doubt they'd bestir themselves to defend a city-state so close to the Noxian Empire.
Concerning Urgot, I am fairly certain he wouldn't act to defend Piltover. However, he would certainly try to cause as much harm to Noxus as possible, regardless of collateral damage. He has no love for his former home.
Eternal7911 votesYeah, I was thinking the words help and defend aren't really the most accurate, cause I don't see Urgot going out of his way to save Piltovian lives. On the other hand, he'd be pretty like to start targeting the Noxians that are invading Piltover. Though he might actually appreciate the invasion in the long run if it does enough damage to Piltover, leaving it in a more chaotic state.
BabyNaix1 votesLike Little Finger
Eternal7911 votesSadly I don't really understand that Game of Thrones reference, cause I don't watch that show (though I probably will eventually).
BabyNaix2 votesLIttle finger likes chaos. In one of the early seasons he said "chaos is a ladder to gain more power". Some one else described Little finger's as " he would watch the world burn if he can be the king of the ashes"
Placentas2 votesNEW SEASON IN A FEW DAYS ARE YOU PUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMPED
BabyNaix1 votesI know it's this Sunday!! Can't wait to see the dragons kick some ass!
Warlord Dienekes1 votesCleganebowl. That's basically why I'm still watching.
And I want to see Cersei and Dany get what's coming to them. We've seen all the other good villains go.
Placentas1 votesGuurrl, you got me so conflicted right now.
Cleganebowl for life <3
But gurrrrll, Dany isn't a villain. Sure she is driven by the desire to retake the Iron Throne and rule over Westeros, but she is far from a villain. She doesn't believe in slavery, she is okay with religious freedom, she works to protect those who cant protect themselves.
She is even open to the nations of Westeros having limited freedom of rule over their claimed lands even after she takes them over, as we can see with Dany making a deal with Yara about the Iron Islands.
Cersei gon die viciously though. Love her, but she has it coming!
Also an interesting thing to note, is Cersei is going down the path of Dany's father, The Mad King, much more than Dany herself.
Warlord Dienekes2 votesOk. Let's do this.
Dany is a horrible person. She basically walks into a place makes a bunch of demands of the population and if they don't comply she burns them to the ground all while proclaiming that she is the true queen or some shit.
It's made way more blatant in the books. But everything Dany touches just gets dramatically worse. She upturned the entire economy of the Free Cities and she did not implement any new economy to take their place. It's why Astapor descended into complete chaos when she left.
And let's not forget the time there was a plot by the natives to overturn a foreign conqueror (which she is). How does she handle it? She murders a man she has no evidence against by burning him alive with her dragons.
And why is she fit to rule? Dragons? No she was calling herself the true queen before they were even hatched. She believes she deserves to rule because her dad happened to be a madman with a crown. Despite Mormont and Selmy hinting toward this (again more explicit in the books) she remains oblivious that her entire basis for rule is the same faulty logic and brutality that created "the wheel" in the first place.
Asoiaf has a long history of twisting things around so when you look at it you begin to see how your perception of things was manipulated by who we were seeing events through. Go back and look at what Dany has done, and how she has accomplished it.
You'll see we've basically been watching Genghis Khan murdering her way across a continent on the flimsy pretense that her causing more war will be better for everyone just because she's the one doing it.
Placentas1 votesHahahahaha. Nah man, all of what you said is true tbh. I've read the books too.
But hero & villain are both labels that are heavily influenced by perspective of the individual. I keep in mind she's a young girl doing what she thinks is right. Yes, she left Astapor in an absolute shit hole, especially in the books. But she tried to calm it down.
She's learning to be a ruler when much of her blood is that of conquerors. And blood in this universe is very important, it's the basis of the title even. A Song of Ice & Fire. Jon Snow shares the blood of ice & fire.
So yes, Dany is not an excellent ruler, but she's also a young girl. Quite very young in the books too. She's learning, she's making mistakes, and most importantly she is regretting.
To many of the people she has conquered she can definitely be viewed as a villain. If I were them, I would hate her too. But also has supporters of those she conquered as well.
From a reader and viewers perspective though, I have to side with her not being a villain. I wouldn't say she's a hero, but she's finding her place. Right now in the show, she is definitely at a crossroads. She has the option to obliterate Westeros for the most part, but will she? She has even outlawed rape and pillaging among the Darthraki and wants to actually enforce it.
Like we have real villains like The Mountain. I kind of wish they made more of a big deal in the show of him as they did in the books. I loved how during some chapters you just hear news of this mountain of a man destroying armies and towns, cutting people in half, raping everyone in sight etc etc.
Warlord Dienekes1 votesShe is a young girl that keeps on making the same mistakes and fails to address the core issue. She has had the issue pointed out to her either blatantly or obliquely since the first book. Hell, even look at the ending of that first book.
Miri Maz Duur straight up tells her that the land the Dothraki pillaged had peaceful people who just wanted to be left alone. The land they were pillaging to raise funds for the conquest of Westeros Khal Drogo was doing for her. Dany gets to feel all morally superior because she stopped Miri from being raped. Only for the reveal: she'd already been raped several times before Dany got there. She had watched everyone she loved murdered before her eyes.
That was the cost of Dany's conquest. It's right there in front of her. But she never recognizes this. Even the majority of the readers don't recognize this.
But how many characters do we see as this horrible villains, only for GRRM to pull the rug out from under us to see them as the broken people they are. Jaime is obvious but also my main man Sandor, even Theon to some extent.
I do honestly think GRRM is setting up to pull the rug out from under Dany. There are so many pieces pointing to how much trouble she is causing for no real benefit on the macro-level (and no Tyrion saying "I grew up rich without slaves" is not an economic answer. Not everyone gets to be born on top of a literal gold mine).
I just think it fits in line. The start of the book we saw how terrible the "good warrior king" actually was. I think we'll end revealing how our honorable conqueror was just as bad or worse.
Placentas1 votesDany never pillaged Sheep people though. There was no way she could convince Drogo to stop that and go against the Darthraki way. She was sold into that situation by her brother, she didn't plan or decide to marry Drogo. You're acting like that was her plan. It was her brother's plan, and then Drogo's actions.
And Dany does notice this. Hence her outlawing rape and pillaging once she actually has power.
We already have seen Dany be broken. Viserys had her broken most of her life. You seem to ignore this, yet state other characters as examples.
I was hoping to have a real discussion but you're incredibly bias against Dany. I can admit she has problems, but you seem to only see everything she does and about her is a problem and none of her progress.
So peace out girl scout.
Warlord Dienekes1 votesNo it wasn't her plan. But it blatantly shows what her plan will entail. It's thematic equivalence and foreshadowing for the reader, but it should have also been a lesson for her. She got a first hand look at what conquest is really like. It's basically brutal people murdering their way to get what they want. She sees this, it is pointed out to her, but she doesn't recognize this.
Outlawing rape, is a good thing. It won't work. Rape still actually happens today, in the modern military. It should definitely still be happening quite frequently with the Dothraki since that's a fundamental aspect of their culture.
We've seen Dany broken, sure. And it was hard, Viserys is a horrible person. But that doesn't somehow excuse what she has done since then. She is still the wrecker of cities, the murderer of a man who for all we know has done nothing wrong, and she had no proof he did anything.
Hell, she's not even going over to Westeros to save them from the Others or anything noble. She wants the throne, that's it. She has no claim to the throne, her family was lawfully deposed. Her reasons are: her father was a madman, and she has dragons. That is the same might makes right mentality that got Westeros into the mess it's in currently.
That's my point. She doesn't recognize any of that. And it's blatantly obvious.
Eternal7911 votesGlad you're getting into the discussion, but... its the wrong discussion. Could you maybe take this somewhere else please?
Quindec1 votesprobably the best ally for pilty is the yordle kingdom or something
Helmight2 votesI am extremely doubtful that yordles are organized enough to respond to anything en mass, let alone that they'd flock to Piltover's defense. Yordles are too individualistic to all decide that one human city is worth the effort. That being said, Piltover does probably have Heimerdinger and Ziggs defending it, at the very least.
Don't count out Piltover in a fight though. Noxus has a large army, but it's made up of a bunch of disorganized warbands. The discipline and technology of Piltover will count for a lot more than sheer numbers if it came to war.
mkyner3 votesDemacia is kind of far away, and I think Noxus controls several ports along the sea route between Noxus and Piltover that they could use as a base to disrupt sea trade between them. Apart from slipping in a few agents, I think the best Demacia could do is mount a diversionary attack on other Noxian outposts. I don't know what kind of navy Demacia has. Piltover is implied to be a naval power, but their forces would probably be focused on defending Piltover.
Eternal7914 votesAll very true. So I guess no help from Demacia, as they may not even know Noxus is invading Piltover since they're rather isolationistic.
Fondling Gems2 votesAlternatively they might try to strike while noxus is away, and thus deal a crushing blow.
Glory ln Death1 votesNoxus is a pretty massive empire with an enormous military. No matter how tough a nut Piltover is to crack, there's no way Noxus is sending even most of its forces there. For one city-state, it's just not feasible - there are only so many soldiers they can throw at it at once.
Plus, I doubt Demacia would be willing to start a spur-of-the-moment invasion of Noxus. They aren't exactly an impulsive nation, and Noxus is being fairly secretive about its plans. Not to mention, an offensive endeavor into Noxus (home of Swain, LeBlanc, Vlad, and other powerful magic users) would pretty much require taking Galio in as a countermeasure, leaving their homeland vulnerable if the Noxian forces singing Piltover decided to switch targets.
Krabohod3 votesAs it was already mentioned in this discussion: it would be difficult for Demacia to get to the Piltover without full fightinh with Noxus first. Also, Demacia and Piltover do not trade, cause in Demacia trade is prohibited, as seen in the Medarda Heirloom, Demacians are also likely to see hextech as magic (cause in the end it based on Backern's magic). So why would they defend nation that they have no interest of saving, nation which is using thing Demacians' hate, have no economic influence on Demacia and is too far away to just send troops there without any consequences.
People seems to forget that Demacia is not all-good nation. They are not good guys. They are just nation, just guys. They would not kindly save all they can, they would act only if it would heavily affect them. And Noxus' war with Piltover would not.
Meep Man1 votesTrue. They would likely first acquire a trade agreement and would only act hostile if it would greatly benefit them, such as if Piltover denied them trade or something similar.
Eternal7912 votesActually Noxus invading Piltover would greatly effect Demacia in the long run, cause the whole reason Noxus wants to invade Piltover is so they can get a hold of hextech; thus helping them invade Demacia. Other than that, you have some pretty valid points.
Oleandervine2 votesWhy does Urgot care about Piltover? It seems to me he detests Piltover as much as he destests Noxus, with only a rare few of the notables of whom he actually bothers to acknowledge (
). Urgot seems to favor chaos, power, and revolution over the tightly formulated control Piltover has. This is why he appears to be basing his insurgency and launching point for his revenge on Noxus in Zaun, as the chaotic underbelly of Piltover is a breeding pool for rebellion.
I think if Urgot managed to destroy and usurp the chem-barons in Zaun, he might defend the city from a Noxus invasion - but only because he had conquered it. But I severely doubt he would care about Piltover up above.
Eternal7911 votesI honestly think he hates Noxus more than he hates Piltover. While he wouldn't go out of his way to save Piltovian lives, he would definitely try to keep Noxus from taking over Piltover. Though part of this could simply be through making sure there's nothing for them to take over.
XIII Vanitas1 votesNoxus won't invade Piltover any time soon, their defense is way too powerful.
Wrathof3001 votesWhat defense?
Eternal7911 votesThe Wardens, technology and all the champs that wield this technology in powerful ways.
Wrathof3003 votesAside from 
and 
we don't know anyone trustworthy within/ affiliated with the wardens to guarantee that they could handle Noxus' military. Jinx had a them wrapped around her finger, when she was serious.
Piltover was founded merchants and inventors, after rune wars, thus the Wardens are not necessarily a Military force, so its not as though every Warden is ensured to be outfitted with hextech. They make mention of 2 warships outfitted with hextech weaponry in 'Progress Day', but beyond that hextech isn't your everyday commodity. Assuming the familia of the Bluewind Court decide to work together and in tandem with the Wardens, Zaun still isn't guaranteed to provide their assistance either and most of the champions won't budge unless they are directly/ immediately affected by the invasion.
Actively plan a defense against Noxus: and the Wardens, maybe 
, and other Family Intelligencers as well as whatever sumpsines they pay off to help them (granted this would probably end up a futile attempt).
Reactively protect Piltover: 
, 
maybe, and 
(I assume she is still in Piltover)
will probably be waiting for when both sides are weak, to go up to Piltover with his men and take control and drive out Noxus/ slaughter those that didn't get away in time.
I only see 
and 
helping if we have a story involving them that would follow into the invasion arc, otherwise they probably only fight if the fight comes to them.
I'm not trying to downplay Piltover, but without a doubt they are the underdogs and I will be rooting for them if we have an event whenever that invasion arc happens, but they are literally surrounded by Noxus.
Eternal7912 votesIt would be cool to see Noxus actually take over. Then some of the champions would be part of a resistance. The different clans might unwillingly work with Noxus (I can just imagine Noxian ambassadors walking up to Camille and her niece to say they work for them now). Vi and Cait might unwillingly work with Jinx (more like tolerate her antics and take advantage of them) while some of the inventors like Heimer and Ziggs could be making weapons for the resistance.
Then of course you have Urgot killing everyone, though mainly Noxus.
Wrathof3001 votesHot damn, the idea of a resistance sounds awesome. I kinda want them to lose now XD.
Meep Man4 votesWell if we break it down based on lore level:
Noxus-
Piltover (and Zaunites Who Would Defend Piltover Inevitably)-
So, as far as I can see, Noxus is outnumbered when it comes to lore figures. There are also many "neutral threats" that would inevitably make an impact on such an invasion that roam the streets of Zaun, such as 
and 
. I would say that, while both sides would not be immune to such threats, the ones from Piltover would at least be more "used to" such threats.
Anyways, I would have to agree that Piltover would likely win in a stand off invasion. It is surrounded by an ocean and the many trade partners of Piltover would also likely not like for such a gigantic partner to be lost so Piltover would also have reinforcements. I understand that Piltover resides in "Noxus Country", but at the same time the city is basically a fortress. It's surrounded by water, has tons of supplies (and food that can likely be grown with hextech magic) on the inside, and also has the valleys of Zaun around it. It would just be so incredibly hard to invade without aerial assault, which Noxus has not shown off as of yet. So far, only PILTOVER has ever been hinted at having aircraft, so I don't believe this would be a potential threat.
As far as lore power goes based on champions, the most powerful champions we are looking at are (based on current confirmed lore):
vs (maybe )
Overall, Noxus has the higher power leveled champions. However, Ekko is a HUGE potential threat for Noxus to deal with. Janna might also have huge potential influence, but she is more vague in her current power compared to Ekko, who just controls time.
Eternal7913 votesYou forgot Urgot, Camille, Jinx and Vi in the powerful champions section.
with his high caliber machinegun, shotgun knees, corrosive charges, chemdrill, and meatgrinder, would tear through a lot of the other champs (especially most Noxian champs). He would essentially be an unstoppable tank that really only Sion could deal with effectively; though I think Urgot still has at least some chance to take him down.
's gauntlets have enough power to kill people in one punch (don't even start the One Punch Man jokes) as it's been stated that she can punch through rock and concrete.
is extremely skilled, highly trained, and has plenty to deal with Noxians (energized sword legs, partially metal body, grappling hooks, inhuman reflexes and stamina, and an energy shield).
wields a minigun and a rocket launcher and has evaded the entire Piltover police force for how long? Also, Jinx fits into neutral threats.
And Singed has been known to help Noxus so I don't think they would consider him a threat.
Quindec1 votesJanna is perhaps the biggest threat the Noxian army can face, due to her ability to shape and control the weather around piltover, she would inevitably become the first line of defense in an invasion. An example would be the mongol invasion of japan where a giant monsoon destroyed the whole invasion fleet. Because piltover is surrounded in ocean and not to mention its far up the sea level, Janna can use the winds to deter any invasion force dumb enough to invade
Glory ln Death1 votesI don't think Laughing Fish, Melledoneus, etc will be much help to Piltover.
Eternal7911 votesWho? By Laughing Fish I'm pretty sure you mean Jinx, but I'm not sure about Melledoneus. And Jinx likely would be of help to Piltover (indirectly) cause she'll be causing problems for Noxus when they invade. And there's really not a whole lot Noxian soldiers can do against a minigun and a rocket laucher.
Glory ln Death1 votesNo, Laughing Fish, Melledoneus, Fondling Gems, etc. You know - the Wardens! They may have power to delete posts and comments, but it won't be too helpful in Piltover!
Eternal7911 votesXD Oh. Those wardens.
nintentwins1 votesi highly doubt demacia would even realy want to protect piltover, seeing hextech as magic, and the long distance, they probobly have very little reason to.
if anything, i would expect them to fortify thier own place as much as possible, in case noxus does prevail, and they would then go for them. and even with heztech, i would assume demacias anti-magic city would help with that-but not completely disable it. as it is different from normal magic. i think it would probobly weaken the heztech, but not completely disable it. that said, because heztech isn't "full" magic, even with alot of it, it might not be enough to wake up galio-or it might, i could be wrong(assuming noxus would not bring much magic of thier own, knowing full and well it will be disabled).
maybe could wake up 
if need be, but only if the situation is dire enough-considering her circumstances.
as for piltover, i would assume would probobly wait for a moment when noxus and piltover are weakened, to try and bring both sides to thier knees-to have his ideal of strength on both sides-rather than one, if given the oppertunity. could theoretically defend piltover, but i think it's more likely that she would try to cause as much chaos as possible. she already likes creating as much chaos as possible in piltover-but with a war going on, that'd be like a playground for her, she'd have the time of her life.
as for zaun, could be either way. i could see a bunch of internal conflict between people of both piltover and zaun, about what zaun should be doin in that situation. for many, piltover is the only hope they have of not being stuck in zaun thier whole life-particularly in the slums. while those in the higher ends of zaun, might not see a need to help out-unless they feel like noxus might go after then immidiately after piltover. wether noxus decides to go after zaun afterwards, depends on if they think they got enough left in them to continue-rather than retreat. if thier weaker, i can see that being when takes his chance. if not, i could see zaun starting to panic, as they might not have enough to stop noxus.
but even if zaun does decide to help, there might just be too much internal conflict to win with. between seeing this as a chance to "cure" many people, enough blood to make be a constant presence, the chem barons and thieves that are common in the slums of zaun using the war to make stealing alot easier amidst the chaos, wanting to bring everyone to thier knees, causing chaos nonstop, i think it would be much less of a war, and more of complete anarchy. granted, there would be some who would definetilly want to help out, like , and maaaaaaaaaaaybe , and pretty much all the rest of piltover, but with all the chaos that would be sure to ensue on thier side, i dont think they would be able to hold up against noxus, but i bet they'd put up a fight for sure.
but, this is all assuming noxus would invade piltover in the first place. we all know it's a goal of thiers, but they need to find an opening, thats why they tried to get that map made in the story we saw when came out-along with all the other piltover lore. as as we saw, caught em before they could get it back. noxus is probobly constatly trying to find some way to map out a plan(hehe, pun), but knowing how good piltovers forces are at that stuff, rather than raw strength, they probobly wont get that chance for a looooong time. they'd have to be pretty cunning to get past the eyes of these guys (etc), the only one who could really has been , and i doubt would be interested in handing over info to noxus, unless tricked. that said, she probobly wouldn't have any info to begin with, other that "blow up stuff" knowing her. noxus needs that chance first, and piltover's gonna do everything they can not to let em have it. the only way i could see that happening is if piltover's peeps got too caught up with something like and got disracted. which to be fair, is not an umcommon occurance. however, i dont think it would take all of piltover just to handle jinx, they probobly have for example look out for that kind of stuff while handle jinx, maybe vice versa sometimes.
but, it is fun to speculate if it ever does get past them like in this post x3.
also pardon my spelling/grammer, i know im bad at it xP.
Eternal7912 votesI don't think Noxus would need to invade Zaun. While some might not like the idea of Noxus coming in, the chem barons would probably just let them in since they are allied with Noxus.
Also in the Progress Day story, Caitlyn only caught one of the Warmasons. The other got accepted into the clan.
Lintu Puck1 votesMost of Demacia would probably not want to both and would indeed focus more on fortifying themselves. Someone like might WANT to help but wouldn't be able to outright. So instead she might try to convince her superiors to at least send a small force in secret to at least keep an eye on things (and possible sabotage Noxus at times). would be in this group. She MIGHT have 
with her to help scouting.
Pretty much all of our Piltover cast would try to defend their home however they could. would rally the armed forces, might head back down to Zaun to try and find back up. If 
and 
are still part of the Piltoven science scene in the newer lore they would definitely help out.
would probably help, and it would give him another point to rub in the face of the Piltoven elite. would probably lend her skills, too.
As for Zaun. and even would probably help, especially if it seemed the Noxus Threat would be dangerous to the GOOD people of Zaun. might be someone drags up, and he'd only help cause he'd be smart enough to know Noxus isn't good for either city. Not sure if would help fight, but based on her new lore she might at least provide medical assistance. would surely help Noxus, especially if they promise to continue to fund his research. and would skulk around continuing their lives as usual (stinking up the place, killing those that smell of blood, etc.). is the ultimate wild card. Not really all their in the head he would just target everything. would mostly stay out of it, only butting in to cause chaos for either side, though for all we know if gets hurt by Noxus seriously she might just turn the Noxus camps into her knew playgrounds. is kind of a toss up I think. He does want to improve the people of Zaun, even if he has SLIGHTLY lost sight of things (like humanity's free will). If Noxus gave him founding and let him "upgrade" some (throw away) troops then I could see joining Team Noxus.
For the man in question, , I think he would be in charge of the main Zaun Defense as they watch from below, middle fingers raised high as they glare up above, "Come down here and just TRY and fight us!"
Eternal7911 votesYou bring up some good points. And we've only seen Jinx when she's in a good mood. I don't have much hope for Noxus if they manage to piss her off.
As for Urgot, I think (as several people have stated) he would probably come up to Piltover when both sides have grown weak from the invasion and screw them both over.
And likely, if Noxus does manage to take over Piltover, they're going to send troops down to Zaun. Likely the chem barons will be fine with this as long as they get to continue their usual business, maybe even with the help of Noxian soldiers. Lots of other people on the other hand, would not want Noxus in their city (especially Urgot).
