Why has Lulu's friend Pix been getting progressively lamer animations with each new skin?

TheLittlestLulu·Nov 7, 2015·85 votes·22,974 views

I mean look at how much energy Pix has in all of Dragon Trainer Lulu's emotes http://puu.sh/lcV0a.gif http://puu.sh/lcV0x.gif http://puu.sh/lcUZI.gif http://puu.sh/lcV0Q.gif

Now compare that to Winter Wonder Pix http://puu.sh/lcUVY.gif http://puu.sh/lcUWI.gif

The first two emotes look a lot less energetic. But at least the dance is still good. http://puu.sh/lcUXp.gif

But then you have the taunt... http://puu.sh/lcUVn.gif

It's like Pix just gave up and didn't even bother trying. It only gets worse with Pool Party Pix http://puu.sh/lcUXQ.gif

The laugh is about the same as the Winter Wonder skin, but... http://puu.sh/lcVKQ.gif http://puu.sh/lcUXG.gif

Pool Party Pix doesn't even have an animation for joke or taunt. He just sits there doing his standard idle animation.

At least he still dances I guess. http://puu.sh/lcUZa.gif

Riot if you ever make another Lulu skin please don't forget that Pix needs animations too.

66 Comments

DrCyanideNov 7, 201557 votes

I give you credit for the gifs, they certainly make it easier to see what you're talking about.

RiotRiot WhistNov 7, 201550 votes

Because Dragon Trainer was a legendary skin (the first legendary skin actually). The dragon is completely new custom animation. The other Lulu skins use base Lulu's animations. This is the same for all character's with Legendary skins.

With pool party not playing animations I suspect that's a bug and will look into it on monday.

EDIT - turns out DT was one of the first 1350 skins, which was a new price tier at the time and in fact not a legendary (which had been around as a tier since much earlier (as seen with Gentleman Cho)).

I will point out that the poro's wings are custom animation and the puffer fish does have custom fin and auto attack squish animations - however, what OP states is true that neither of these skins have animation work on Pix near what DT has.

While I can certainly see players viewing this as a loss in value - I will point out that the other two 1350 skins have recalls. I wasn't around at Riot when DT lulu was made, however looking at it today I'd say speaking strictly for animation this would take me about one work week to create plus maybe a little extra bleed-over into the next week if there was feedback that needed to be addressed. Recalls take me about one work week plus a day or two bleed over for feedback.

I'd argue the time spent is still about the same, however it's used on something that is not as easily taken for granted. If we were to do another skin focused on completely reanimating Pix, we'd have to make sure it was really noticeable so players understand the price (as that was a huge pain point of DT lulu release)

AuryielNov 7, 20156 votes

Uh.... Legendary?

Ya sure about that?

RiotRiot WhistNov 7, 201512 votes

DT Lulu was launched as a legendary I'm 82% sure.

This was before I got hired. I'm pretty sure we dropped the price because the actual effort that went in (all on the dragon) went largely unnoticed since he's so small and not what you look at when you're looking at "lulu"

EDIT - DT lulu was one of the first of the 1350s, not legendaries, Sorry for misinformation :(

ÑapoleoniNov 7, 20153 votes

If Riot spent that much time working on the dragon, why not just make it bigger . . .

Who wouldn't want a dragon spraying fire balls the size of Lulu. I mean the fire balls would do like 12 dmg, but its all worth.

RiotRiot WhistNov 7, 201528 votes

Gameplay read.

If you see giant fireballs coming at you that only do 12 damage you're going to be confused.

ÑapoleoniNov 7, 20151 votes

Good point . . . How about we make Lulu ride the nicely textured dragon, and a baby dragon can be "The dragon in training" and shoot the little fire balls.

TomatosxNov 8, 20156 votes

That's not Lulu then.

ÑapoleoniNov 8, 20151 votes

Dragonrider lulu?

Rew711Nov 8, 20157 votes

Did someone say... Dragon Master? Swain ........

I'll just leave.

ayNigerianPrinceNov 8, 20153 votes

This guy is fucking with us right?

ÑapoleoniNov 8, 20151 votes

Yea i'm fucking with you. It would be dumb for fire balls the size of lulu to do like 12 dmg.

AuryielNov 7, 20153 votes

I'm pretty sure it was never legendary. I mean legendary skins have a new VO, for starters. Also this.

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2793360&page=1#post31356426

However, if I recall correctly, it was the second 1350 rp skin, after Mecha Kha'Zix.

RiotRiot WhistNov 7, 20158 votes

Hmm you may be right. There's a reddit post from 2012 asking why it costs 1350.

HellioningNov 7, 20151 votes

Dragon Tamer Lulu was one of the first 1350 skins. Maybe even THE first.

ZiPSNov 7, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Whist,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=AHTzN43N,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-11-07T22:40:06.573+0000)

DT Lulu was launched as a legendary I'm 82% sure.

This was before I got hired. I'm pretty sure we dropped the price because the actual effort that went in (all on the dragon) went largely unnoticed since he's so small and not what you look at when you're looking at "lulu"

Dragon Trainer Lulu was not ever Legendary nor was it ever intended to be. Ever since Demon-blade Trynd all legendary skins have had new voice overs. The controversy over DT Lulu was because it was the first non-release skin at 1350 yet as far as many players could tell it was a recolor with custom particles. As you've said the work on pix was hard to notice. Without the animation's to pix DT Lulu would only qualify as a 975 skin on the grounds of her custom particles (which is a shaky argument at best given recent releases).

If it was before your time and you haven't spoken to anyone with more relevant experience then just don't post about it. At best you are guessing based on half remembered information and at worst you make it appear is if Riot is lying to cover their asses for something.

RiotRiot WhistNov 7, 201529 votes

You are right, I edited my post to correct the error.

I've played League since release and was sure enough I was remembering this correctly, but, we all make mistakes. I hope people don't think a Rioter would rather lie than accept the facts. I stand by my decision to post and correct rather than not communicate at all.

ZiPSNov 8, 20154 votes

Sorry I've come off like a dick but when you post under a red name you are no longer posting as a player but as a representative of Riot Games. The information you originally posted took a negligible amount of effort to disprove. When a Rioter acts in such a manner it begins to chip away at the trust in transparency you pride yourself on as a company. I can think of two examples off hand of large video game companies bold face lying to their players so I'm probably paranoid in that respect.

Again, sorry I've come off as a dick, but in the future would you please not post about things you are "82%" sure of? As an authority figure, could you please go for 95%-100% sure?

Lao Fu the TigerNov 8, 201518 votes

Calm down, please.

He's as much a player as you and I are, and people make mistakes. Posting under a "red name" doesn't magically make you omniscient.

It's a silly animation.

This doesn't chip away any trust whatsoever. This isn't lying. This isn't misdirection or misleading or anything of the sort. It's an attribute of memory. And getting authoritative over a post regarding something as trivial as whether a skin was $5 or $8 does in fact make you sound pretty abrasive. It's not important enough to degrade a person and put them down and tell them they aren't doing their job correctly.

ZiPSNov 8, 20153 votes

Downvote me all you want but in this day and age anyone can and should take a couple minutes to google search a topic they are almost, but not quite, sure of before posting about it. Especially if they are in a position of authority.

This wouldn't be an issue if Riot Whist was just another player. This wouldn't be an issue if Riot Whist didn't lead in by presenting these far for accurate assumptions as fact. This wouldn't be an issue if Riot Whist had responded to the first player questioning these claims by researching these assumptions. Most of all, this would not be an issue if Riot Whist wasn't an Animator for Riot Games speaking about a skin, a subject they directly work with.

The facts of the matter are that Riot Whist began by stating, from a position of high authority no less, that Dragon Trainer Lulu was originally the first legendary skin and the price was later reduced in recognition of the player's reaction to it. Something that the front page of google verifies as untrue. Now Riot Whist is defending the choice to post about something without doing the most basic form of fact checking.

Lao Fu the TigerNov 8, 201510 votes

And my response is...

....Is it really that important?

That's all I'm asking.

Battlecast SonaNov 8, 20158 votes

you're not sorry for being a dick or you wouldn't be a dick. Riot employee is still a human being, and human beings are fallible creatures. Berating a rioter is definitely the way to get more to feel comfortable posting on the boards though, gj!

ZiPSNov 8, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Vitriolic Cat,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=AHTzN43N,comment-id=0004000000000003000000000001,timestamp=2015-11-08T06:56:08.026+0000)

you're not sorry for being a dick or you wouldn't be a dick. Riot employee is still a human being, and human beings are fallible creatures. Berating a rioter is definitely the way to get more to feel comfortable posting on the boards though, gj!

I said what I meant. I'm sorry I sound like a dick. I'm not sorry for what I'm doing because Rioters should at least google something before posting about it.

When Riot Whist was talking about animation timing, how much time goes into making different animations, and even how animations are generally used in League, those were well thought out posts the clearly conveyed an understanding of the material being discussed. Riot Whist, please keep posting on the boards posts like these.

Rioters are human but when they make the decision to post on these boards under a red-name account they are making the choice to speak from a position of authority. That carries with it the expectation that when they are speaking of information about League of Legends, and when presenting that information as fact, the information will be verifiably true.

Riot Whist chose to post under a riot account, a position of authority. Riot Whist did not do basic fact checking before posting and even admitted to a 1 in 5 chance of being wrong. Riot Whist did not do basic fact checking until multiple players called BS. Riot Whist then changes gears by saying that the scenario where incorrect information is posted and later corrected is preferable to not posting information at all.

If that last part doesn't seem to follow, it is because it doesn't. This is an authority figure justifying not doing basic fact checking by claiming something only vaguely related to the matter at hand that everyone can get behind. Posting something over nothing is definitely better than nothing at all but that has little to do with basic fact checking nor does it excuse neglecting to do so. That a Rioter would defend themselves not doing basic fact checking by distracting everyone with mass-appeal statement that limits everything discussed to two unrelated topics is disheartening.

If I'm a dick for this then so be it, because all I'm really asking is that when you aren't sure of something, say so. Failing that, then as an authority figure when it come to the point where you are typing or thinking something like "I'm 82% sure." please stop and fact-check yourself. Please judge how sure you are of some information when you present it, and please have the information reflect how sure you are of it.

Tuck FhreshNov 8, 20156 votes

One of the true meanings behind "sorry" is to never do it again. If you have to say "Im sorry if I... (sound, act, say something rude, treat you in [this way], etc...)" then that probably means you shouldn't carry through with the action. Its inconsiderate and it's childish. You are blatantly accepting the fact that what you are doing is wrong, and continuing to commit to it. Think about what that means about character.

Hope you all have a good one. Get that grind on before the season ends.

JnalaNov 9, 2015

Frankly, I agree with you too that when they're posting as a Riot authority, they should do some research on what they say because they're not only representing themselves, but also Riot as a company. I'm not quite sure what else to say on the matter, I just didn't want you to feel like you were alone in your opinion of that, ZiPS.

League of PotatoNov 8, 201515 votes

People make mistakes, no need to be a dick about it. I guarantee you're not perfect either.

Battlecast SonaNov 8, 201513 votes

THIS IS WHY RIOTERS DON'T POST. DON'T BE THIS GUY.

RozzetaNov 8, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Whist,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=AHTzN43N,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-11-07T22:06:33.286+0000)

While I can certainly see players viewing this as a loss in value - I will point out that the other two 1350 skins have recalls. I wasn't around at Riot when DT lulu was made, however looking at it today** I'd say speaking strictly for animation this would take me about one work week to create plus maybe a little extra bleed-over into the next week if there was feedback that needed to be addressed. **Recalls take me about one work week plus a day or two bleed over for feedback.

Then you missed the part where community complained about the price, and Riot justified it with Pix animations. The community though that was barely a reason to make the skin so expensive.

Fast forward to now, and it's being viewed as an added value the other skins of similar price don't have.

EDIT: Nevermind, ZiPS already said it (people can downvote him all they want, but that won't hide the truth).

CasterGilgameshNov 8, 20151 votes

so how hard is it to remove a voice filter from say....prevoid Kassadin ? i love that skin but the only reason i switched to the newer i love them both but the newer one never breaks the immersion of the skin.

RiotRiot WhistNov 8, 20157 votes

So for new champions - fairly easy though we need to watch out for voice work that was done with the intent of processing that might sound a little weird without.

For old champions it's not always possible as we don't always have the raw recordings sadly.

CasterGilgameshNov 8, 20151 votes

damn it! shakes fist towards the sky curse my fate!

FlashnFuseNov 8, 20153 votes

So what you're saying is: No human Orianna?

exe3Nov 8, 20155 votes

Human Orianna would be Legendary anyway. Oh how I hope Riot does this one day!

DesideriumNov 8, 20153 votes

Would it be possible to remove Zed's helmet filter if there was an Unmasked skin made for him?

He was made after Varus, and Varus's voice filter was removed with the Arclight skin, so it should be doable for Zed right?

High5Nov 8, 20152 votes

Give this person a raise! Seriously, posting a well thought out response on a weekend? Thanks for the info. Seems like a silly topic to me, but obviously it's important to others.

Btw, love Pool Party Lulu. The googly eyes are awesome.

TheLittlestLuluJan 14, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Whist,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=AHTzN43N,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-11-07T22:06:33.286+0000) With pool party not playing animations I suspect that's a bug and will look into it on monday.

Has anything actually come of this? It's been a few patches since this post and Winter Wonder Pix still has no taunt animation, and Pool Party Pix still has no taunt or joke animation.

RiotRiot WhistJan 15, 20161 votes

This is on my list but hasn't been a priority. I hope to get to it soon now that the holidays are over.

PaladinNOMay 7, 20161 votes

I'm pulling a Yorick on this one.

Recalls take me about one work week plus a day or two bleed over for feedback.

What would it take for you to make a nice recall animation for DT Lulu?

I bought DT Lulu at full price quite some time ago, and I still maintain that's one of the few skins that actually is worth the 1350 RP asking price (yeah, I'm a Lulu main). The only minus that I can think of is its lack of a recall animation.

Btw.: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/TUGA7X2W-dragon-tamer-lulu

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/TUGA7X2W-dragon-tamer-lulu?comment=0003000000000000000000000001

Dragon Trainer Lulu was the first 1350 RP skin. This was also before spring of 2013, when we more clearly defined the kinds of things that made each skin [X] tier.

TheLittlestLuluJul 7, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Whist,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=AHTzN43N,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-11-07T22:06:33.286+0000) With pool party not playing animations I suspect that's a bug and will look into it on monday.

So is this ever gonna get looked into? It's been 8 months and this is still a thing.

SiachiNov 8, 20156 votes

This is mildly off topic, but if Lulu ever got a Visual Update, who else here would love to see DT Lulu's recall animation involve her making Dragon-Pix grow, and riding him off back to base?

Baron Von BanginNov 7, 20153 votes

Isn't Dragon Tamer Lulu more expensive? When that skin first came out I remember the Pix animations being one of the primary reasons it has a higher price.

TheLittlestLuluNov 7, 201512 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron Von Bangin,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=AHTzN43N,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-11-07T19:10:08.714+0000)

Isn't Dragon Tamer Lulu more expensive? When that skin first came out I remember the Pix animations being one of the primary reasons it has a higher price.

Dragon Trainer Lulu costs exactly the same and Winter Wonder and Pool Party Lulu.

Dragon Trainer Lulu is also an older skin. It came out 2012, which was before Riot started doing recall animations, which is why it is one of the only 1350 skins that doesn't have a recall animation.

BakedLotionNov 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Dragon Trainer Lulu costs exactly the same and Winter Wonder and Pool Party Lulu.

Dragon Trainer Lulu is also an older skin. It came out 2012, which was before Riot started doing recall animations, which is why it is one of the only 1350 skins that doesn't have a recall animation.

didnt zombie brand come out in 2012 ? it has a recall animation

TheLittlestLuluNov 7, 20152 votes

{quoted}

didnt zombie brand come out in 2012 ? it has a recall animation

Oh wait yeah I'm getting dates confused. Brand was a legendary skin though.

Baron Von BanginNov 7, 20156 votes

Ah. I own all of them so I wasn't sure on the price point.

Riot's been getting lazy on animation for emotes in general. Most champions that get a VU get a downgrade in the dance department. It's pretty ludicrous.

Moonboy65Nov 7, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron Von Bangin,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=AHTzN43N,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2015-11-07T20:09:31.574+0000)

Ah. I own all of them so I wasn't sure on the price point.

Riot's been getting lazy on animation for emotes in general. Most champions that get a VU get a downgrade in the dance department. It's pretty ludicrous.

Garen's new dance is better than before tho

RiotRiot WhistNov 7, 201510 votes

With the way emotes are used in a match - waiting for minions to spawn (typically spammed so only the first 5 frames), or hit quickly in lane to get the audio to play, the time spent animating an 800 frame dance animation just doesn't make sense for us the way we look at things.

While we as an animation team understand there will always be players who feel it is worth having an elaborate dance, we try to look at each animation as apart of the big picture. We only have so much time to work, we could animate a long dance, or make a shorter fun looping dance and put that saved time into polish on more frequently seen animations and bonus unneeded, but nice to have, animations like tower attacks.

I'd argue emotes are a worthwhile development time sink despite the fact they do not benefit the gameplay, however, I think they have diminishing returns with the time spent on them in most cases. While I think some dances are too short and could use extra time to put in variations to the loop (Trundle), some dances I think are just too long to the point it stops adding value (Caitlyn).

Development is a balancing act - we only get X time to spend, so we need to spend it wisely. If you want something added, you have to give up time from something else.

In terms of being "lazy", please take a look at modern emotes vs old emotes. The time and effort we spend is a lot higher, the actual quality of the work is astronomically improved. Original 40 don't have joke animations and the emote animations they do have are pretty low quality.

Baron Von BanginNov 8, 20156 votes

Most of the recent released have had pretty uninspired dances. Sivir's and Twitch's immediately come to mind. Nasus had his "Dance like an Egyption" (particularly fitting f you ask me) and was given a couple vaudeville kicks instead.

Another horrible offender is the fact that many of the recent VU'd champs don't even get a recall animation. Those champions are likely never to be revisited again and are stuck without one, but newer skins get one over just the base and all the older skins. Call it "resource allocation" or whatever but it just seems lazy to me.

And just to split hairs about modern versus original, Sivir's current dance isn't anymore complex or better animated than Taric's.

Crowe StalkerNov 8, 20151 votes

Ekko barely even has a dance right now. His Taunt has more engaging animation for Kindred Sake and it barely loops at the end, after the cool animation is over.

Crowe StalkerNov 8, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Whist,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=AHTzN43N,comment-id=0001000000010001,timestamp=2015-11-07T22:37:04.460+0000)

In terms of being "lazy", please take a look at modern emotes vs old emotes. The time and effort we spend is a lot higher, the actual quality of the work is astronomically improved. Original 40 don't have joke animations and the emote animations they do have are pretty low quality.

Ekko Non Looping Dance Animation that's less engaging than his Taunt...