@Riot Writers & Foundation: You have to work out how the supernatural systems of this world function

SaltyToplaneGoat··11 votes·969 views

It's usually one of the indicators to tell well written fantasy apart from generic stuff when the systems behind the magic are explained properly.

I could just look at my bookshelf right now and see tons of authors who did exactly that. It doesn't matter if it's Stroud's Bartimaeus, Paolini's Eragon, Aaronovitch's Rivers of London, Rothfuss' The Name of the Wind, Lukianenko's Nightwatch, Pratchett's Diskworld Novels, or Shinobu Ohtaka's Magi - they all spend a lot of time and effort trying to explain how the supernatural systems work, or how the people interacting with them think they work.

I think the only series that doesn't explain it that I can see right now from my desk is "Harry Potter" - but that's a children's book. A good one, with no doubt, but not exactly an example for high quality fantasy writing.

However, right now in the LoL universe things are just too vague - too vague to even take seriously. If everything is "somehow something magic", then I personally lose interest as the things themselves become meaningless. It becomes impossible to compare the things to another, and of course there is always the danger of the writers doing some stupid ass-pulls with the legitimation of it all being vague anyways.

As for how to do it, I think I have named several good titles above. You could go with the River's of London approach and have an apprentice try to measure magic with scientific means (Piltover Style), you could tell a story from the perspective of a magician or magical being, as it is in Stroud's or Lukianenko's works (Xerath as a candidate maybe? or maybe Ryze?) and how they thing about it, or also possible, you tell a story of a magician getting educated in magic what is something that many of the authors named above do (Ionia would be fitting here, as magic is more common there). And I am sure there are some more good options here.

However, there are a few things you need to clarify before: such as "What is Mana?" - "And what is mana SPECIFICALLY in THIS fantasy world?". Don't just steal concepts that already are part of the fantasy-canon. You are supposed to pick them up and develop them yourself, not just take them as you find them. Another issue would be how Runeterra stands in contact with other realms, such as Celestial, Void, Glade, etc. etc. I'm not even asking for a scientific analysis here, just for some very basic informations that make me see this world as something living and complex and not just another generic setting that I have seen getting poorly executed way too much in literature.

Of course there is also the way of explaining almost nothing and keeping everything mysthical, but the LoL universe lacks the atmosphere required for that. That would be something more found in works of Neil Gaiman, but nothing that would be enough to explain everything going in the world of Runeterra. And to be honest, you are kind late with doing that. When creating a world, establishing the basic rules is one of the things that should be done AS ONE OF THE VERY FIRST THINGS.

To be honest I have almost zero hope that you guys ever get anything done - heck, we still have champions with effectively no lore, YEARS since the retcon. But please, don't add screwing up with something this basic to your list of shortcomings. Runeterra as a world has potential, and I'd hate to see this getting ruined by amateurish work from the writing department.

25 Comments

Warlord Dienekes5 votes

In the explain vs mystic debate on magic I am a pretty firm believer of Sanderson's 3 laws:

-An author's ability to solve conflict satisfactorily with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic -Limitations > Powers -Expand what you already have before you add something new

Or basically, if you want to make magic a mystical force you can't use it to solve the plot points. Gaiman, Tolkien, Martin, Abercrombie, Gemmell, Howard, etc. do not explain their magic at all and they're great fantasy writers. But, their magic users are almost never the main protagonists, and if magic is ever used to solve a plot point (Gandalf vs the Balrog, for example), then it must come at an extreme cost (Gandalf dies) otherwise magic itself seems cheap. But, that's because it is. There's a reason why I (personally) much prefer the characters who are mundane in a magic universe, because it is far less likely that they'll get out of a sticky situation with some mystical handwavy nonsense (though it does still happen, I think everyone who's ever read Batman for more than a year can think of at least one time where the explanation for his success was pure mumbo-jumbo bullshit).

I think this is also why I think the Bilgewater event is the strongest thing Riot has done. Truth be told, from a story perspective, the tension between Renekton and Nasus, or even Xerath and Azir is a stronger tension than Gangplank and MF. But, the story events of the Bilgewater event is about two non-magical characters using their cunning against each other. The only real magic used was with Twisted Fate, and that had a modicum amount of explanation to get it to work: TF needs his cards to do magic, which sets up why Graves giving TF the card was such a powerful moment. Now it's not a great explanation, but, it's something. It's a limitation to overcome.

When compared to the Xerath vs Nasus fight, which, yeah, has cool seeming moments, like Xerath mind controlling people and reforming and whatnot, but because we have no clue how any of it works, it's all just fancy light shows. Weird fancy light shows because we don't actually get to see the fancy lights, we just read about them.

So yeah, I'd agree with OP. If Riot wants to focus more of their storylines on magical characters, they need to explain how these magical beings work, and possibly more importantly how their powers are limited in meaningful ways that the reader can understand. Saying "Xerath's prison makes him weaker" is inherently meaningless because we have no frame of reference to how that limits him and what he can do with and without the prison. But actually giving limits and extents on the magic users powers can create complex situations that have actual tension as we, the reader, can understand what's going on beyond the vague X is stronger than Y because MAGIC.

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

I have never heard of these laws, literature studies are not my thing tbh. I'm just a media studies bachelor after all, totally not focussed on these things ^^

But I wholeheartly agree with said laws as they are a good guide to ensure quality - sadly Riot's writers have not read them it seems, or else this whole retcon-mess wouldn't have happened in the first place. I also agree on your view of mysthic writers. Mysthic magic makes for a HORRIBLE driving force of plot, as the end results become either potentially random and the story therefore meaningless, or the ending is already obvious, then you have no reason to follow the story anymore. After all you already know how it ends.

Personally I am not so interested in the mudane characters, but those who only know a little magic. Nifty tricks that require cunning and planning to help them out of dangerous situations. I even have a concept for DSA (german Dungeon's and Dragons) lying around right now, about a Illusionist who sets out to become the ultimate magican by hunting magical artifacts. Apart from some few gambler-tricks and some mirror images he's entirely powerless (apart from the artifacts he has gathered so far) - and like that he has to go up against powerful sorcerers and warlords. I freaking love that concept, because the story will be awesome: "Just how will he get out of the situation now with the limited and weird arsenal of tools that he has?", will be a question asked every time, one that keeps things interesting, while at the same time keeping spectacle creep at bay since every fight needs a unique solution and doesn't require the next fight to be even bigger or more dangerous to be interesting.

However, if it was mysthic magic, it would be totally lame. Either he has the better mysthic magic or he has not. The fight would pretty much be reduced to a coinflip, and be totally boring.

It's kinda like the thing you described with Twisted Fate. Yes he is a mage, but not a very powerful one. And that makes it so interesting.

Now the question is: are there characters in league that need to be de-mystified for the lore to rise in quality?

Warlord Dienekes3 votes

Brandon Sanderson, he's a fairly popular fantasy novelist, whose shtick is very detailed, very complex magic systems. He started thinking of these rules when he went to a panel of writers at a fantasy convention and made the claim "magic systems always must have rules" only for the other two authors to immediately jump down his throat because no, magic should be mystical and unexplained.

Which got him thinking about the old greats of fantasy, namely, Tolkien and Howard. Regardless of your like or dislike of LotR and Conan, those two were excellent fantasy writers. And the rules of magic in Tolkien's universe was essentially "be one of these creatures who can do magic" while the rules of magic for Howard were "whatever disturbing thing I can think of, it may or may not involve the blood of virgins."

But this worked because Gandalf was never the main character, nor were the countless mages in Howard's writing. The main characters were normal guys with maybe a pinch of the unnatural about them. Frodo and Sam are essentially just random Brits, and Conan was a barbarian.

So when magic is used in these fantasy worlds were magic is mystical, it cannot be used to get the main character out of a bad situation or complete a story arc. Now, Tolkien gets fuzzy from time to time, with Gandalf sometimes saving characters from disaster by being Gandalf, but usually this is just done early in the story against a mediocre threat to establish how awesome Gandalf is. But once the main story really gets going, Gandalf cannot be as effective because it doesn't make a good story.

Joe Abercrombie is a modern day master at this. The only rules he's ever really given for his magic is: -being a cannibal makes you stronger in weird ways -the MacGuffin of the first series powers a magic super weapon.

That's almost nothing to go on, but we see constantly that whenever magic is used by or around the heroes the cost is so great that the success doesn't feel cheap. Logan goes crazy berserk, it may be magical, and it may kill the enemies. But it does so in a way that makes everyone around him mistrustful of him, or he hurts someone close to him. Bayaz may be a super powerful mage, but when he does his magic shenanigans the effects on the populace are devastating, arguably more deadly than what would have happened if he hadn't gone all first of the mages.

Now, all of this is not to say that you cannot make super powered magic characters interesting characters and protagonists. Let's say the new champion, Waka Waka is the strongest mage in the game. Now, that can be difficult to come up with a unique challenge for him, but it can be done. But to make the fights interesting, you can't just give a blow by blow of spells whizzing around, because it's meaningless if we don't understand how it works. You can make the challenges faced by Waka Waka more cerebral in nature where his magic isn't the answer to the problem (the best Superman stories do this). Or you can make the magic that he uses knowable by the reader and complex enough that we can follow how everything works and why he faces challenges, rather than it all being essentially meaningless details until we get to the end.

Now there are a lot of ways that writers use to add a bit of drama to make up for the unknowableness of the magic. This usually comes in the form of a random thing that blocks the power, or weakens the enemy in a vague way. I really hope Riot doesn't do this. It's overused, cheap, and horrible. This would be your Kryptonite or what have you. There's really only been one time I've ever seen this techniques use that wasn't just silly, and that was because it was never used as the grand solution to the insurmountable problem, but just a small little bonus to even the odds that was really only barely used (if you're curious, I'm referring to the ysalamiri from The Thrawn Trilogy).

Which this post is just a really long way of saying: Riot doesn't need to limit themselves to just the characters I find interesting (mundanes and very weak mages in a world of magic), but if they're going to create gods and we're going to follow the adventure of these gods, we're going to need a shit ton of context or the writing will suffer.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Ah I was blind. On might nightable there is a freaking book of Sanderson <_<' Knew that the name was familiar. I'm currently reading "Way of the Kings", or whatever the english title is. I am familiar with Abercrombie tho, but it has been years since I last read a book of him.

I think how much context we need is dependant on the character. Bard barely needs anything. He's just there kinda, doing minor things, for whatever reason and effects this might cause in 200 years or something. He's a side character with the potential of a Deus Ex Machina for starting random stories (how did Sejuani end up on Mt. Targon? Random Bard Tunnel, How did Nidalee suddenly end up in Zaun? Random bard Tunnel. Why did garen suddenly appear in Swain's bathroom? Random Bard Tunnel. I think you get the idea.).

But most of our champs are not side character, and we will need a TON of lore to work with that. However, with the current release rate of lore content, we might only get half done in like 40 years...

Ebonmaw Dragon3 votes

It seems like there is a connection between the cosmos and the magic... and the spirits of each creature and the magic. I could even say that planets and stars are also considered some kind of "spiritual creatures" according to the lore of Soraka, Aurelion Sol, the Targonians and the World-runes of Ryze.

Most of the "magical" champions use their magic thanks to the source of a celestial body:

AurelionSol Diana Azir Leona Nasus Xerath Taric Ezreal Pantheon Stars (The Sun is considered star and the moonlight is just a reflection of the sun) Nami Diana Satelites (the moon itself) Ryze Riven Pantheon Malphite Planets Bard Soraka Warwick Celestial Beings (WW wants the heart of one) Veigar Corruption of the cosmos Velkoz Chogath KogMaw RekSai Malzahar Kassadin Lulu Other Dimensions

((Manifestations of the Nature such as the True Ice, the Cristals of Skarner race would be considered as a manifestation of the magical energy from the planet... just like the runes. Hextech would be usually considered magic that takes power from Runeterra as well since it uses magical cristals))

Or Spirits:

Illaoi Elise Galio Zed Swain Kalista Irelia Garen Udyr Spiritual power borrowed from others Ahri Lissandra Karthus {{campion:266}} Fiddlesticks Warwick Sion Mordekaiser Thresh Vladimir Zyra Spiritual power taken from others Brand Anivia Kindred Bard Maokai (All the Yordles) Spiritual creatures themselves Annie Irelia Janna Lux Shen Syndra Taliyah Magic from their own spirit Shyvana Nunu (Yeti) Alistar Trundle Nami Rengar Lulu (Fae) Kayle Morgana Fizz Velkoz Magical Creatures TahmKench Demons

(Those categories are usually mixed)

SaltyToplaneGoat3 votes

But in the end we have no clue in what relation those classifications of beings stand to each other. I highly doubt that it's a strict hierachical structure, the world is a big and complex place after all.

Also we have no clue how the different types of magic interact and react when being exposed to each other. It's all just too vague,,,

Ralanr2 votes

If I had to guess, magic in Runeterra is harnessing energy to do a specific thing.

Based on how Aurelion Sol describes it, magic is the ability to enforce your will onto something to shape it into form, like how pressure makes diamonds.

As Jareden said, magic is rare in Runeterra, but I'm not sure if it can be taught to anyone (like D&D wizards) or if you have to be born with the ability (like D&D sorcerers). Then of course you have to wonder if you can only do one type of magic or you just use the type you're more comfortable with.

Ryze seems to utilize magic in its purest form. But this could be because it was best to go the generalist route for his travels (because an Ice Mage makes the most sense in the Freljord, but not Shurima).

Then we have Leblanc and Swain. Leblanc's magic could be something passed down, but is it taught or is there a ritual for it? Swain seems to function like a warlock (imo) and draws power through Beatrice (though she is also his magical conduit, so who knows?).

Syndra shows that people can be born with intense magical power, and her spheres could be a sign of her preferring to use it that way, but it might be that she can only utilize it that way. Maybe Syndra is incapable of learning a fireball like Annie.

TF got his magic from his people, so that showcases magic can be learned. But was TF just someone capable of learning it or could anyone? Considering how easily they kicked him out for breaking their rules, it implies that a magic user isn't a huge loss (I could be terribly wrong) and could be replaced.

Note that I'm avoiding divine magic like Illaoi summoning the will of her god and hextech.

I theorize that magic can be taught and learned by anyone, but the means to do so have been almost completely forgotten, making current teachings and the practitioners a shadow of their ancestors glory.

Probably has something to do with the protectorate and magelords.

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

Yeah, but since the writers seem to be lazy literally all we can do is only guesswork in the end.

Also, Ryze might look like he's using the purest form, but Aurelion Sol makes fun of him for thinking that, so he's not using the purest form probably.

But even if magic is rare in Runeterra, most of our main characters (= champions) either use magic or are involved with it, or literally are magical beings. So this matter should have the highest priority for the entire writing department.

FloRaider422 votes

I'd like to say: "Stop overanalyzing it, it's just a game", but you do make some good points and I think it would be interesting to see the world of Runeterra fleshed out more.

Only complaint is that you seem kind of demeaning about it. LoL has to reestablish the whole lore after the retcon, has to encompass several different champions and factions and has to be able to implement all potential new champions into the game. Comparing this to a book, which has no restraints in terms of narrative and no problems with potential new releases, feels just wrong. I personally am fine with LoLs lore as long as it stays ahead of it's competition.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

The competition is not sleeping tho. For example Blizzard just released two new comics for overwatch, one for backstory, the other to keep the current lore going. And a visual novel series is planned to hit the comic stores in 2017.

Well, since they have to change so much already, why not change it right then? They should use this chance now that they already have the excuse to change and meddle with characters to this degree.

FloRaider422 votes

Overwatch got released fairly recently, has only a handful of characters and is based on the real world, so please forgive me for not really being able to compare that to the problems Riots narrative team is facing.

That's the dream, but you should be able to realize that rewriting and reworking the whole lore now would cost tons of resources and effort and isn't really that profitable. They will slowly rewrite the lore and characters stories with lore events and reworks.

GaleWinUnleashed2 votes

Eragon in particular really nailed it for me. Magic is clearly explained as a redirection of the caster's energy at a 1:1 ratio; if you don't have the physical strength to lift a large boulder off of the ground, you can't do it with magic either. So magic becomes much less about brute force and more about creativity and proper preparation (being well-rested and fed and stockpiling additional energy if possible). It's about finding methods to accomplish the task in a more efficient manner, often one that can't be accomplished by mundane means. An excellent example of this is how Eragon learns to kill with minimal energy, simply by pinching or cutting an artery in the brain "with no more effort than it would take to lift a finger".

https://i.imgur.com/1HvNiEO.png?noredirect

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Also the magic system was tied to a lingual system - with all the problems that could possibly come with not knowng the language well enough, like the thing that happened when he tried to bless a child but cursed it instead by accident...

You can say against the series whatever you want - and the movie can rott in hell for all i care, but Paolini really nailed it. At least in the first three books, I'm a bit conflicted when it comes to the last book tho...

Oh and Eragons tranformation at the elf-festival was a kinda shitty plothole tho, but mostly because it was a mysthic element in an otherwise non-mysthic setting...

Fasmodey1 votes

I agree.

Riot shouldn't only focus on places like Noxus, Freljord, Shurima. They should explain some general things like magic, celestial beings, Sun Disc, Runeterra's Sol System etc. Runeterra may have a twin world.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Well, it's not a matter of focus, but rather a matter of priority. And the department seems to have screwed up in this area...

Fasmodey1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=9pe4Eufg,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-08-02T16:27:14.930+0000)

Well, it's not a matter of focus, but rather a matter of proiority. And the department seems to have screwed thing up here...

should also focus* then. :P

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

Going on the boards right after waking up was a mistake. Let me fix all those typos <_<'

Fasmodey1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=9pe4Eufg,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-02T17:01:34.415+0000)

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

Going on the boards right after waking up was a mistake. Let me fix all those typos <_<'

Well, I was fixing myself, I thought words that I chose wasn't perfect for this sentence, so just maybe because of this they caused some misunderstanding. Whatever though. :P

ennear1 votes

Oh oh oh! I remember finding a post that gathered all the lore it could and tried to piece together the structure of the world and magic. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/Ertty23V-how-magic-the-cosmos-and-spirits-work-maybe-sod-if-i-know

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

Yes, but that is just fan theory, without a single verification of the writers. Vague speculations, nothing more. But we don't need that, we need some solid FACTS from the writers now.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

bumps this because this is actually important

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

bumps, because this is still an issue

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Bump, because this is still a thing.

Rebonack1 votes

I've asked more or less the same question before. Namely, 'what IS magic in this setting?' We still haven't gotten much in the way of an answer. I feel like what League really needs is a campaign setting book akin to what you would buy for D&D. Ebberon, Forgotten Realms, Mystara, ect. Something that goes into detail about the nature of the setting, the people who live in it, the nations that the world contains, the place's history, and so on and so forth. All stuff that we won't get much information on given Riot's laser-like focus on champions in the the lore they release.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Heck, even german DSA (Das Schwarze Auge) has more rules about magic, and that despite the game usually being more focussed on "classic", non-magic users and magic usually being kind of a wild-card sometimes.

And yes, the focus on champions is making things problematic. How should I ever get the feeling for how a normal person views this world when all I hear are tales of truly exeptional people? Doesn't make sense...

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