What do their armies look like?

Voidac··5 votes·1,426 views
http://i.cbc.ca/1.2580637.1395345517!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/16x9_620/canadian-soldier.jpg

We saw in Bard's animation that they still fight with swords and bows, while other provinces have flying machines and guns... some obviously fight with magic. So what do their armies look like? The advantage of a rifle is so much greater than that of any bladed weapon (I'm not putting down swords or bows, just sayin'...), so you'd think if this technology exists, governments would REALLY push to obtain this in a sort of arms race.

Considering the state of Runeterra and the different nations involved, you'd think that the advances in science, magic, and weaponry would be commonplace throughout the world. So far, the excuses I've heard people use (especially in my thread about Space Travel in Valoran) is that these technologies are rare/few and far in between. Even that argument is so incredibly weak.

Does Demacia/Noxus have rifle-bearing troops? I'm sure it'd be easier to teach people how to use a rifle vs. magic. Artillery mages are definitely a thing, and each side has those, but rifles vs. axes seems like a no-brainer.

The world of Runeterra doesn't seem medieval to me. It seems to be just as modern as our own world, if not more so. Advanced sciences and technologies accompanied with magic means devices we could never make. Space travel and interplanetary communication seem like things well within the capabilities of Piltover/Zaun.

Is there a Rioter out there who might be able to spill a little bit about the state of Valoran in terms of technology?

20 Comments

Ebonmaw Dragon4 votes

As far as the lore that we know of, the only place that has an actual trained army that uses guns, bombs and things like that its the army of Bandle City.

Tristana Corki

Even if Zaun and Piltover have the technology, they dont seem to have an organized army like Demacia or Noxus.

KnKitsune1 votes

Think of Runeterra as Azeroth from Warcraft. Modern and medieval fantasy weapons were able to co-exist.

In my opinion, any balanced army in a world like that would have all types of troops. Mages, riflemen, knights, archers.

Warlord Dienekes1 votes

I would say, originally Azeroth limited limited their weapon tech to the rough equivalent of arquebuses. Which makes total sense, arquebuses existed a bit before true articulated plate.

I am so not up to date with Warcraft lore so I don't know how far they've gone past this. But Runeterra has blown far past this to the point that the tech of the world no longer makes sense on a fundamental level. So all told it's best to just nod your head, ignore it, and pretend magic just answers all the problems.

Mogarl1 votes

Because as polluted as Zaun is, and as future thinking as Piltover is; neither is industrialized. They don't actually have the industrial backbone that is required to support a modern military. Specialists are required to make guns in Runeterra, both for magical and non-magical. To an army with thousands of soldiers it doesn't really matter to them if guns are better if you can only acquire ten in a year and each one costs a small fortune (not to mention purchasing ammunition). So it is quite likely a supply and economic problem that prevents guns from being common use.

However in the old journal of justice there is a line of dialogue said by Katarina that indicates that Noxus does employ fire arms in it's military. It's not indicated post-retcon whether or not Noxus still uses firearms, but I imagine they likely have a small force specifically trained in their use.

Voidac1 votes

See, I think they are industrialized. And I think trying to rationalize it by "oh, metal sticks and gunpowder take a small fortune" is a cop out. Sure, magical weapons may be more expensive, but if a government wanted certain types of weapons, they WOULD get them. With the number of scientists and researchers in each province, figuring out how to mass-produce weapons shouldn't be that hard.

Mogarl1 votes

{quoted}

See, I think they are industrialized.

And this right here is the biggest unknown factor of firearms in Runeterra parallel to our own is that currently there is nothing saying which it is. You can think it's industrialized and I can think it isn't but neither of us can actually claim to be right.

More thoughts on Advanced weapons and Runeterra First off it's doubtful that anything except for sand and humans exist in Runeterra that you have shown in that picture. Automatic rifles are not shown to exist at all in Runeterra and the most advanced firing mechanism we know exists is a revolver.

Demacia is none to fond of magic and quite likely none to fond of modern technologies like firearms they will likely never upgrade their arsenal unless Noxus forces them to.

Noxus as a government on the other hand has shown it's willingness to employ Zaunite weapons, however I find it unlikely that the people of Noxus look kindly upon the use of chemical weapons because traditional Noxus ideals tend to lean towards personal power. This leads me to believe that the average Noxian would likely look at training basic soldiers to use innately powerful weapons as a kind of cheating.

Ionia is trying to create it's own hextech armaments, however they are just starting. Given time Ionia will likely be the first Nation to have a military using hextech weapons, but they may never reach the levels of efficiency that Zaunite/Piltovian hextech has. If they did they would easily be able to outproduce any other nation or city-state, and take over all of Runeterra.

Zaun actually has more reason to not sell weapons to Noxus than you may think. After all if Noxus is fully armed with the best weapons Zaun has to offer, what stops Noxus from taking over Zaun. I imagine that the Zaunite weapons used by Noxus were never actually sold by Zaun, more of a rental. I would bet, that Zaun weapons are operated by Zaun soldiers and after the war is over they go back to Zaun.

Even if you won't accept supply or economic reasoning for the lack of firearms in Runeterra's armies you have to accept that there are very valid cultural reasons as to why different nations may be resistant to upgrading.

Voidac2 votes

See, the problem is that I've thought about all of this and still arrive at my conclusion. War forces people to evolve and adapt (Khazix). War is a very serious thing in Valoran. Why not take every opportunity to get the upper hand on your enemy? Ranged weapons like rifles (which do exist in bolt-action form) would be a great at achieving just that. In a time of war, certain personal honors are set aside for the sake of winning that war, and while Demacia might not be so quick to adapt, I feel like Noxus would be quick to jump on the gun. Graves got his hands on a shotgun, who's to say they're really that rare. It honestly feels like guns are just another reality in this world. The only reason I can really think of as to why certain weapons aren't more prevalent is because when they first made league, they had no idea where they were gonna take the world to this extent, and a bunch of champions with guns isn't much fun at all.

So no, while I think this world may JUST be entering their industrial era, I do believe guns are common (Ekko's friend was shot I believe) and just another part of life for these people. Guns and crossbows aren't that hard to make and well within the capabilities of of the scientists of Valoran. The only reason other weapons like swords and lances are used is because magic is a thing. Garen uses magic, Lux uses magic, Xin uses magic, they all use magic. Either with their weapons on just straight up flinging light at people. Magic could very well be just as powerful if not more powerful than guns in this world, and I think that's why certain weapons like swords and axes are still used. then there's people like Darius who just need to calm down. Darius would be a great reason for Demacia to train riflemen. I'm getting off track. Magic makes conventional weapons still a thing.

That being said, magical ranged weapons like Jayce's Mercury Hammer/Cannon are another great example of a ranged weapon that, while born of hextech and necesity, could technically be reproduced in mass quantities. There is nothing in his lord (expect those crystals) preventing that hammer from being mass produced. Now maybe scientists like Jayce aren't too keen on just up and giving their ideas to the military, but I'm sure there are plenty of bright scientists who would be willing to accept a military contract for a shitton of money and support in their research. Demacia and Noxus actually want to WIN their fights, right? While Demacia might be slow to the game, upholding traditional values, Noxus is just bloodthirsty enough to try and mass produce these weapons.

For the sake of arguing against myself (and since I'm not really seeing anything in your statement), I'll go ahead and say that maybe guns are already obsolete in this world. Magic and artillery magic would probably make rifles and the like relatively useless, right? Well, problem is not everyone trained in different types of magic. Also, for people like Quinn and Vayne who still carry crossbow weapons, don't you think handguns (which do exist) and rifles (which do exist) would be better, more powerful alternatives? Vayne uses magic, but Quinn relies in her bro-... on Valor to do anything too crazy. While athletic, she has no actual magical ability. Give that woman a handgun and then we'll talk. Then there's twitch. Yes, he, too, could also used poison-tipped bullets. Maybe a slow-moving subsonic ammo to make sure they don't shoot through their target.

It's painfully obvious that the base materials are abundant in Runeterra for gunsmithing. See, the weapons we see in the actual game are just special-crafted weapons. Generic guns are no fun, especially in a game like this. But this doesn't mean they can't possibly exist. For a world as worked-over as Runeterra, I'm sure they've had guns for a loooooong time. See, you're also forgetting MF and GP. Pirates LOVE guns. They don't care about honor or tradition. Guns kill, so they got guns. Easy as that. And canons. And other explosives that could easily be used to make bullets. Graves uses shell ammunition, meaning that while the ammo/combustion/action of the run may include hextech/magical properties, it also means there is a firing pin as well as a basic knowledge of using combustion to move lead. This means that simple rifles and guns could easily be mass produced and, once again, they aren't included in the game because normal guns aren't interesting. A massive hextech shotgun, or a sweet looking handgun/rifle combo, or a sniper, or just flintlock pistols, are all thematically "cooler" than normal weapons. But the simple fact that Graves uses shell ammo, whether or not it's centerfire or rimfire, means that the technology not only exists but, if a bunch of pirates can get their hands on guns, than so can the other citizens of Valoran.

So now that we know for a fact guns exist and are already in advanced stages of design, we can only assume that if Demacia isn't using guns, it's because they're compensating with magic in some way.

I've also thought about possible security forces Zaun and Piltover might have. While I do believe these "cities" have some sort of formal security force, they may not be a military so much as just appointed security officers, much like police. And BEHOLD, who's the Sheriff of Piltover? What weapon does she carry? So instead of militaries, they have law enforcement. I'm sure security in Zaun is usually done privately either through supporters or hired private arms. But I'm not really talking about their military, but mostly about the big players in this war who would have a reason to upgrade their military with side-arms and other weapons. Does Garen carry a side-arm when he's not clad in steel and carrying his signature sword? Can he just summon a giant sword from the sky and that's his deal? I think the only reason Demacia isn't toting weapons is because tradition, but I'm sure Swain has a rifle or two somewhere. It would be ignorant to thing otherwise. I'm sure Singed, Warwick, and maybe even LB have been given guns but still they have preferred methods of fighting (usually with magic or gassing the place).

Of course, this is all only because magic is a thing. If magic wasn't a thing in this world, it'd look a HELL of a lot like ours. But magic DOES exist here, and their choice of weapons and tactics are a product of this. I'm surprised, honestly, that not all soldiers are taught basic magic to help aid them. I'm sure there is a certain amount of training that goes into being in the military of either nation. Noxus obviously values magic, and so does Demacia. So maybe they're taught basic healing/sensing/physical enhancement spells. See, now THAT is what I'm curious about now. Magic is so prevalent in this world that I don't think it's just a select number of individuals who can actually use it, I think it's more like a science to then, and training in it is definitely a thing. If someone wanted to dedicate their lives to studying magic, they can. If someone wanted to dedicate themselves to the sciences, they can. I don't think it's restrictive of who can actually use magic or develop weapons, but who WANTS/NEEDS to. MF probably doesn't really care for magic, nor any of the pirates. Studying is boring. But for those in the military, simple magic MUST be taught. For a world that's been just short of carved out of magic...

Mogarl1 votes

I started typing out another response, but I decided it was pointless. You clearly have a thing for guns and little desire to look at Runeterra and the fantasy setting differently from our world. So whatever, carry on with your gun fetish.

Edit After thinking about what I put here I kind of feel like a dick I may put down a future response, but whether or not I'm in the wrong here it still seems like you just really have a thing for guns.

Voidac1 votes

Wow. Didn't take you long to lose your cool.

As for if I have a thing for guns, no. Not at all. However, civilizations and their technological development are kind of my thing, and guns were a big turning point for humanity in so many ways. So I look at it in a historical perspective as well as its impact on history and the world of Valoran in general. It's intriguing to thing about a world where magic and technology are both realities for these people.

Mogarl1 votes

{quoted} It's intriguing to thing about a world where magic and technology are both realities for these people.

You say that but it doesn't seem like you actually take the magical or cultural qualities of Valoran into account. You disregard all of those, and your argument can be summarized as "these are cool and all but guns are the end all be all and no one can stop someone from that happening." You asked a question and had your own answer. Any reply to you in the first place was pointless after the first one as you've just said the same thing.

Voidac1 votes

See, it's seeming now like you haven't actually read anything I've said. I've mentioned multiple times about how the the characteristics of both nations would affect their choices as to whether or not they'd adopt new types of weaponry quicker.

I've never said guns are the end-all-be-all, if anything, I said magic would be more powerful. Please read my posts again.

Mogarl1 votes

Alright So I'm going to try and give a non-dickish response.

So just to point something out, I do not doubt that firearms will slowly replace the weaponry of the common soldier. If guns are easily accessible then they will slowly replace the current weapons used by Valoran. However currently the majority of guns are one of a kind and commonly toys of the rich, or used by those that stole them from the rich. The guns used by Miss Fortune took almost a year to make and it is likely a similar situation for Graves and Caitlyn. Caitlyn in particular we know fits into the "nobleman's toy" category; all of her equipment (assuming it's the same equipment) was given to her by her parents so that she was safe while she did her crime fighting hobby.

{quoted}

So no, while I think this world may JUST be entering their industrial era, I do believe guns are common (Ekko's friend was shot I believe) and just another part of life for these people.

Ekko's friend was shot by what appeared to be a Pilty Noblemen walking through Zaun. Just as a simple observation and thought process, it is easy to realize that Ekko's friend would have been unlikely to try and rob the guy (which is what his lil buddy was trying to do) if people with guns were a common thing. I'm also fairly certain that it the pistol was a hextech device and not a firearm given the way it just kind of appears in his hand. (it could have dropped down out of his sleeve though)

{quoted}

That being said, magical ranged weapons like Jayce's Mercury Hammer/Cannon are another great example of a ranged weapon that, while born of hextech and necesity, could technically be reproduced in mass quantities. There is nothing in his lord (expect those crystals) preventing that hammer from being mass produced. Now maybe scientists like Jayce aren't too keen on just up and giving their ideas to the military, but I'm sure there are plenty of bright scientists who would be willing to accept a military contract for a shitton of money and support in their research. Demacia and Noxus actually want to WIN their fights, right? While Demacia might be slow to the game, upholding traditional values, Noxus is just bloodthirsty enough to try and mass produce these weapons.

Alright The one thing I agree with here is that Noxus would want to use the better weapons, and in fact the journal of justice had a quote from Katarina that indicated that Noxus did have and utilize firearms pre-retcon. However it is unknown what types of firearms they used.

If you go looking for the article other related events in the journal of justice are Noxus's northern front (they were invading the freljord) and Noxus racism towards yordles.

The Major thing I have a problem with is the idea of mass producing mercury hammers. Setting aside the factual part that magic used for hextech is somewhat scarce everywhere except for Ionia, There are very valid reasons why both the governments of Zaun and Piltover would resist attempts by Noxus/Demacia to get them to mass produce tech for weapons.

The Tech advantage is the only advantage Zaun/Piltover have over The likes of Noxus and Demacia, because While Noxus and Demacia are empire and kingdom Zaun and Piltover are still just city states. Zaun and Piltover are going to leverage their tech against the larger nations because they aren't apart of them, and likely don't want to be. Zaun may ally with Noxus in it's wars, but they are just that. Allies. Zaun is independent of Noxus and without the leverage they have via tech they would likely be conquered by them.

Just as much as you claim the Noxus government would do to acquire bigger weapons, the Zaun government would go just as far to make sure that they won't be conquered by Noxus, and the best way to do that is to keep your tech advantage.

Of course, this is all only because magic is a thing. If magic wasn't a thing in this world, it'd look a HELL of a lot like ours. But magic DOES exist here, and their choice of weapons and tactics are a product of this. I'm surprised, honestly, that not all soldiers are taught basic magic to help aid them.

They simply can't be, it has been stated by narrative that magic is not something all people are capable of, and is in fact rare. Yordles are the only race that innately posses magical abilities.

{quoted} Also, for people like Quinn and Vayne who still carry crossbow weapons, don't you think handguns (which do exist) and rifles (which do exist) would be better, more powerful alternatives? Vayne uses magic, but Quinn relies in her bro-... on Valor to do anything too crazy. While athletic, she has no actual magical ability. Give that woman a handgun and then we'll talk. Then there's twitch. Yes, he, too, could also used poison-tipped bullets. Maybe a slow-moving subsonic ammo to make sure they don't shoot through their target.

First off I'll state that you are by far overestimating the level of technology parallel to our world available in Valoran. In addition it's important to note that gameplay does not mirror the narrative (for example Miss fortunes guns are actually incapable of firing 70 shots in waves without reloading)

The final point I want to make is on the innate properties gifted to masterwork items made by legendary crafters in a fantasy universe.

A steel sword made by Billy Joe the blacksmith up the road by the bakery is just a steel sword. Billy Joe is pretty good at what he does, his swords hold an edge and are a good blade for anyone that needs one.

However, every steel sword used by a Demacian knight is forged and reforged in the Demacian armory, carefully hammered and honed by their legendary smiths and is a masterpiece. These blades are second to none in sharpness and can even cleave through the undead.

The guns of Graves and Miss Fortune are no exception to this, there's more to them than pieces of metal, and because of this you could never mass produce the same quality on a large scale. ( as for Caitlyn I don't know, her gun actually falls apart in her joke.)

Voidac2 votes

You say Ekko's friend wouldn't rob someone if guns were commonplace, but look at our world. Guns are commonplace and people still try to rob people. The nobleman concealed the gun (since handguns do exist in this world). As for hextech vs. normal handgun, think about it this way. It's probably a handgun using hextech ammunition, or maybe a hextech device firing ammo, or hextech with hextech hextech. Either way, it's a gun. Whether or not it's using magic or energy or lead bullets. It's a gun.

I did look for it, but I can't find where anyone from narrative said magic is limited to specific individuals. The problem I have with that is this world is almost made from magic, and learning simple magic seems like a possibility (problem is that it's never talked about).

I am well aware how MF's guns work, hence why I mentioned the flintlock system and not automatic. I'm not talking about "masterwork" weapons, I'm talking about frontier weapons. Guns made by people who needed them. They get the concept. Make a cannon, just smaller. Cannons are definitely a thing in this world.

The problem is that I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say. I'm not saying they could mass produce Grave's shotgun or the Mercury hammer, but building simple weapons like them would be the way to go. Handcrafting a flintlock pistol is well within the capability of these people. While maybe not being as aesthetically pleasing as MF's pistols, it's something that definitely could be done.

Gunpowder is a thing. Steel is a thing. The knowledge of what guns are is a thing. We know these all exist in this world. What's rare is hextechnology, but we know nothing about the "normal" technology of this world, because it's never talked about outside of pirates packing pistols. If a government wanted to produce 40 guns, it's well within their know-how and resources to do so.

It's clear that there is also a knowledge of rifling or revolver-based firearms. Now that I go back through a lot of the recently released lore with Ekko, Rising Tides, etc, I'm starting to think that not only are guns commonplace in Valoran, but they have been for quite some time.

Mogarl1 votes

You have some fair points there that I was kind of ignoring.

A piece of evidence you have failed to mention though is that Jhin's gun is effectively modeled after hextech weapons used in the Noxian invasion. Meaning that even if all Noxian soldiers didn't use hextech weapon or guns, some did.

Leading off from this I would like to point out that as we learned in Taliyah's lore Noxian commanders actually have some liberty in selecting weapons, and so it is likely that not all Noxian units use the same equipment. If the Ionian invasion is occurring at the same time guns are coming into common knowledge then a Noxian commander uses them effectively it could quickly catapult Noxus into an age of guns-mithing, if they were successful. The upheavel of tradition this would cause in Noxus would be a very interesting story and one I think would be worth telling.

One thing you did mention in the OP that I didn't say anything about was the video of Noxus invading Ionia. I believe that it was mentioned at some point that those events were a fair distance in the past, firearms and the like are likely fairly new to Valoran likely within the last 100 years or so. I'm saying this mostly based on the fact that nothing on the shadow isle has a gun of any kind, and guesstimating from the harrowing map the creation of the Isles couldn't have been much more than 100 years.

I still doubt that guns have been around long enough for them to have taken an absolute hold on Valoran's military. In a setting where fire raining from the sky in a battle isn't unexpected, it would be difficult to popularize a weapon that not only goes against culture, but also is probably more expensive and intensive to make

Voidac2 votes

One thing you did mention in the OP that I didn't say anything about was the video of Noxus invading Ionia. I believe that it was mentioned at some point that those events were a fair distance in the past, firearms and the like are likely fairly new to Valoran likely within the last 100 years or so. I'm saying this mostly based on the fact that nothing on the shadow isle has a gun of any kind, and guesstimating from the harrowing map the creation of the Isles couldn't have been much more than 100 years.

This. After I posted that, and after rewatching it a couple times, I felt that it could have taken place at some point in the past, and that the timeline for Noxus invading Ionia isn't really as clear as we, the fans, would like.

If I had to give a guess as to when guns started to become popular, I'd have to say within the last 100-200 years. It's really hard to say, but the reason I guess this is because these people are at a point with their technology that they're making "artsy" guns, "masterwork" weapons, guns designed with advanced mechanisms or ammunition. I think guns were what arrived first in the world, then hextech took the concept and improved upon it by adding magic into the mix.

The more I look at it, and the longer our conversation goes on, the more it seems like guns have been a part of this world for a time, but just as people choose to use swords or axes over guns, they choose flintlocks or shotguns over repeating rifles. Sadly we don't know. We don't know how much the evolution of different types of weaponry affected the mages and warriors of this world. There's clearly certain groups that hold tradition over jumping to new forms of combat and weaponry. Weapons in this world are much more symbolic and meaningful. The person holding the weapon most likely has a reason or purpose to picking the weapon that they did.

Mogarl2 votes

That all seems very reasonable.

I apologize for blowing up earlier it was very rude of me, It was just the first line of your statement felt very dismissive.

{quoted}

See, the problem is that I've thought about all of this and still arrive at my conclusion.

This line just really aggravated me, that statement makes it difficult to feel like I'm actually getting a response to what I've said. As a first line it just really made it difficult for me to read the rest of your post without feeling belittled.

Again my outburst was still in no way justified, but this is the reason giving a rational response was very difficult.

Voidac2 votes

It's all good, I can see why what I said would rub anyone the wrong way. I understand.

Don't feel belittled, I enjoyed this conversation and honestly I just like discussing these things with people like yourself.

Trust me, I've considered your points as well. Especially about the time guns may have actually effected Valoran's history and how hextech is usually held closely by the scientists who make it. Same with our worlds technology. They definitely have processors 5 times better than currently available consumer-grade ones, but they hold on to it to sell it to us over time. While they may not be widely selling hextechnology, I do think there are people all around Valoran actively working on hextech in their own way. Like the guy who gave Graves his shotgun, or Ekko's science experiments in general. I'm sure it's expensive and hard to produce in mass quantities (unless you're Heimer, heheh). Same thing with Graphene in our world. Graphene is expensive to mass produce and keep flawless at the same time.

But normal "gunpowder and metal sticks" I'm sure have existed for some time, but still relatively recently in history (another point you made I agreed with).

Ralanr1 votes

I'd imagine that Demacia's army tends to shine in the sunlight.

Skelenth1 votes

Currently the setting of the game reminds me of that of Guild Wars 2. There are swords, bows, guns, magic and an evil island full of undead.

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