Everyone says that 
is the perfect villain and something that every bad guy should be designed after but I honestly think that's not true. A character can be a extremely evil without any redeeming qualities or a troubled past but still someone you can cheer for and find to be likeable as a champion.
are the best example for this imo.
RiotWAAARGHbobo8 votesAgreed. I think a villain must have the same character depth and thematic qualities as a hero. They must be entertaining, a little surprising, and have layers. A bland good guy is just as terrible as an overly arch bad guy. It's bad writing. Additionally, video game characters should also be larger-than-life and somewhat understandable within the first 10 secs.
Regardless thanx for putting 3 of mah champs on ur list![zombie-nunu-hearts]
Spideraxe2 votesDo you guys ever label champs under the D&D alignment chart to see to try and see if they are truly good or evil
RiotWAAARGHbobo6 votesNope.
We find it's usually not helpful for the creative process. It always makes for a fun discussion-- but it quickly derails into a philosophical discussion that doesn't advance understanding of the champion.
-- That said, it sometimes comes up (often during lunch).
(for instance depending on your view of good and law, Illaoi is arguably every form of alignment in the D&D system.)
Instead of D&D alignment we tend to look for an early "hook" that's understandable.
--i.e. Tahm Kench is certainly Lawful Evil. But that doesn't tell the team as much useful of information as "Tahm is like an evil used car salesman."
blackfootedfox1 votes"Tahm is like an evil used car salesman."
Saleswoman Illaoi and Salesman Tahm Kench? Sorry, I have no regrets as I dislike her void skin very much and I enjoy joke skins a lot more than regular ones.
Darchias1 votesHonestly I just want a Tahm Kench skin that captures his original feel instead of turning him into a joke. The Urf one is not only silly, but it makes him sky blue. The chef one is less silly, but it's still not that slimy sort of evil that his base skin is. Also that shade of orange is eye searing.
Zok721 votesLike most naturalistic gods and priests thereof, Illaoi would probably tend towards true neutral. Nagakebouros is in many ways a lifeforce deity, more energy given name/will than a mind given power (gods tend to break down into humanoids with characteristics who ascend to power and personifications with vague characteristics who are/represent power already existent and Nagakebouros is the latter). This is also somewhat apparent if you look at her ideals/motivations. They are deeply personal/interpersonal (growth of the self and others) and care very little for greater purpose (unless there is something about Nagakebouros we don't know). Good grows for greater ends, evil grows for its own ends, but Illaoi tells us to grow for the sake of growth, more akin to a plant or wild animal than a hero or a villain.
patmax171 votesThis is something I feel is very important, and I think that the last few stories that came out lacked a bit of a really evil villain: warwick is a feral hunter, but he wants to become a better person (or at least make up for the wrong he did), viktor has very valid reasons and just "wants to help" (i dislike Jayce a lot more, could we ever see him turn evil?), mundo is just mad. Singed... dunno, maybe he's still "evil", in a mad scientist way, it depends on how much he does for the sake of scienceTM and how much he revels in inflicting pain and suffering to the subjects of his experiments. Going back we had Renekton who's mad, Camille's brother who's manipulative and a bit childish but not really evil... I think Xerath is the only one who definitely does act for what I'd say is evil, but with a sensible reason (withouth being too sympatethic either). EDIT: I forgot about Gangplank! I loved him in Burning Tides, I think he's a good example of an evil character who's lots of cool! (I hope Swain ends up in a similar spot <3) /EDIT
What do you think about this? You're clearly trying to give villains motivations, but to me this often pushes them a bit away from the villain role and makes them more likable (which isn't something bad for itself, but don't you think you'll run out of really evil characters in your world?)
ps: I'm actually looking foreward to seeing some Demacia stories, I have a feeling you're turning Noxians into a bit more likable people, and I guess you'll show the more shadowy side of their "good" counterparts from Demacia... ;)
RiotWAAARGHbobo6 votesWe want all the characters (villains included) to have clear, strong motivations, and be entertaining.
Actually both Evil and Likeable are dangerous terms for character creation. (It often comes up in development meetings with new team members). "Likeable" and "Evil" mean different things to different people--- often with moral underpinning. (I use the terms empathetic and selfish)
Selfish is what I use as a moral spectrum. While empathetic relates to the character's clarity and execution. (I.e. do I "grok" his motivations)
Now Jhin was designed to be a villain-- but also to shed light on Zed and Ionia. I would argue Jhin is entertaining. You understand what motivates him. You can empathise with him-- buuuuttt ... it feels a bit icky to do so. Because he is so astonishingly selfish. You have to use the parts of your personality you're probably not proud of. (Particularly the psychological relationship between arrogance and insecurity)
So is Jhin likeable?
IF you mean is Jhin entertaining? yes. IF you mean can you empathise with him? yes. But if you mean is he a good person? Would you like to meet him? Is he pleasant? Is he friendly? Nice? Nooooooo. None of those. He is a selfish- a-hole.
The difference you're describing with Warwick and Victor is an attempt to make them less selfish. Their motivations are less clearly evil-- and we understand they might be capable of redemption.
Fasmodey3 votesWe want all the characters (villains included) to have clear, strong motivations, and be entertaining.
Actually both Evil and Likeable are dangerous terms for character creation. (It often comes up in development meetings with new team members). "Likeable" and "Evil" mean different things to different people--- often with moral underpinning. (I use the terms empathetic and selfish)
Selfish is what I use as a moral spectrum. While empathetic relates to the character's clarity and execution. (I.e. do I "grok" his motivations)
Now Jhin was designed to be a villain-- but also to shed light on Zed and Ionia. I would argue Jhin is entertaining. You understand what motivates him. You can empathise with him-- buuuuttt ... it feels a bit icky to do so. Because he is so astonishingly selfish. You have to use the parts of your personality you're probably not proud of. (Particularly the psychological relationship between arrogance and insecurity)
So is Jhin likeable?
IF you mean is Jhin entertaining? yes. IF you mean can you empathise with him? yes. But if you mean is he a good person? Would you like to meet him? Is he pleasant? Is he friendly? Nice? Nooooooo. None of those. He is a selfish- a-hole.
The difference you're describing with Warwick and Victor is an attempt to make them less selfish. Their motivations are less clearly evil-- and we understand they might be capable of redemption.
Will you guys decide having a redemption for Xerath? Because Xerath is currently one of the most evil beings in the story regardless, and you guys said he is not that ''bad''.
He is that bad when he has sadistic pleasure for roasted flesh and bodies turned to ashes. He is nowhere close to redemption and without redemption, I don't know how you guys can end the Shurima except going full cliche like defeating the ultimate surprime being of all faction with muh magic, meh trick, meh power of love etc, an entity which actually had to be morally grey and closer to semi-purified from emotions.
I really love Shurima story and It goes insanely well for me, but I'm worried about the ending, defeat of Xerath, which is cliche and nearly impossible according to my view.
RiotWAAARGHbobo6 votesA slave can never be free until he kills his master.
Keep in mind Xerath is still in chains, physical and emotional. All of his life was dedicated to Azir. In many ways it still is. If Azir was to die or be defeated, what goal and standard would Xerath have left?
Also ultimately, i would argue in Shurima, Xerath is a true villian but there are stll secrets he and Renekton know that will alter your (and Sivir's) perspective on him and his actions. And Azir isnt as squeaky clean as he and Nasus would have you believe. We are in the part of the story that favors Azir's perspective somewhat.
Lastly you are under the mistaken perception that the goodguys will triumph. This ain't a Disney movie. No one said Azir and Nasus would win or survive. Xerath can win and turn the deserts to seas of glass.
Sharjo4 votesYour response gives me hope that Trundle will be the one to conquer the Freljord. For that, I am eternally grateful WAAARGHbobo.
Fasmodey1 votesBut what can change the fact that current Xerath is still far worse and evil than old Xerath could ever imagine? No purpose and reason would make him less guilty in eyes of anyone when you consider the burnt innocent lives followed by sadistic pleasure:
Comets of white blue flame leapt from Xerath’s outstretched arms, arcing like boulders from a war-machine. The first fell to earth in the market, exploding like a falling star. Searing fire detonated from the impact. Burning bodies were hurled into the air like blackened kindling. Fiery winds carried Xerath’s spiteful laughter, an ageless insanity that reveled in the pain of others.
I love Bloodline, read at least for 3 times, and beg for sequel, but something makes me worried about Xerath in the end of Shurima act. Who wouldn't be happy to see the obliteration of an ancient malevolent demigod? His burning desire for conquest and domination is no way acceptable for the good of lore. Xerath, with this personality, is abandoned to another imprison or death.
If you ask me, after Azir's defeat, Xerath's goals would be breaking the sigils of bind he has, getting more and more powerful, learning the secrets of magic in next level and conquering Runeterra (with this morale).
Also, it is interesting to see a being who says ''emotions are only distractions'' is oriented mostly by emotions like pleasure, hatred, anger, envy etc.
Sorry for broken grammar.
Stars Shaper1 votesI like you, I really do.
Since we are talking about epic story arcs... do you think Aurelion Sol will do something except roaming the sky and close Void gates? Will he take some concrete steps into freeing himself? And a bit offtopic... Do you think we'll ever see a true Targonian?
patmax171 votesThanks a lot for taking the time to write this good answer :)
English is not my main language and so it's a bit difficult for me to express exactly what I mean, but I think your post is very clear (also, Jhin is a very good example here) :)
TyrekGoldenspear6 votesExcept that you'll never hear anyone calling Viktor evil without getting divebombed by his fans who insist that he's gray.
I for one believe he's more of an anti-hero.
Also Noxus fans won't say that Draven's a villain.
Kled isn't villainous so much as cantankerous.
TequilaZombie2 votesDraven is not a villain by any means. He's just an executioner who happens to enoy his work. Not even because he likes killing people, but because he likes to put on a show. He's just extremely selfish. To be honest, I'd be too if I were DRAAAAAAAAVEN.
And this is coming from a Demacia fan.
midnight oil245 votesI don't think Kled or Jinx or Draven are pure evil. Jinx is chaotic neutral, as the developers said, Kled just wants to live with his lizard, and Draven is only acting like that because of his brother being seen as better than him until draven started executing people, and even then, he's an executioner. He's just doing his job, like the people at a prison who handle the death row stuff.
Ralanr3 votesAll three of them are either CN or LN honestly (Draven could be more NE or LE though).
Course the alignment system isn't really that good.
Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votesIt's very linear imo.
Warlord Dienekes2 votesEh, I've disagreed on Rioters ideas of the alignment pool before, and I'll d so again with Jinx. She's all about mindless joyous destruction, and Rioters have admitted that people have died in her little sprees. Just because she doesn't care, or wasn't specifically trying to kill anyone doesn't make her suddenly not an evil murderer, willing to put her enjoyment above the very lives of others directly (or indirectly) in her way.
She's Harley Quinn, basically. They're both fun, and bubbly, and oh so charismatic. But they've murdered for no reason. They're pretty firmly Chaotic Evil, just with the personality to not seem so negative about it.
Rebonack3 votes[{quoted}](name=Warlord Dienekes,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=0XjEEk1a,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2017-02-02T04:33:42.356+0000)
Eh, I've disagreed on Rioters ideas of the alignment pool before, and I'll d so again with Jinx. She's all about mindless joyous destruction, and Rioters have admitted that people have died in her little sprees. Just because she doesn't care, or wasn't specifically trying to kill anyone doesn't make her suddenly not an evil murderer, willing to put her enjoyment above the very lives of others directly (or indirectly) in her way.
She's Harley Quinn, basically. They're both fun, and bubbly, and oh so charismatic. But they've murdered for no reason. They're pretty firmly Chaotic Evil, just with the personality to not seem so negative about it.
Jinx fits the 'Chaotic Stupid' trope to a T. She's Chaotic Evil, no questions asked. Even if killing people isn't her main goal, callous disregard for the lives and property of others in the pursuit of selfish pleasure absolutely makes a character CE. Obviously she leans more toward the Chaos side of the spectrum than the Evil side of the spectrum, but that just means she'll get her ass dumped in Pandemonium rather than the Abyss when she bites it.
Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votesIt's not entirely logical to say Jinx is simply Harley Quinn. Harley Quinn is by A LOT of standards not Chaotic Evil, she's a lot more complex then that.
She didn't kill Black Canary when she found out she was pregnant, and even went on to check up on Black Canary and bring her gifts. She saved countless abused animals. She has attempted multiple times to kill the Joker, and then gone back to loving him. She saved a girl from being beaten and raped. She on the other hand, has killed innocent people when she was working with the Joker.
Jinx on the other hand is nuts for the sake of being nuts. As far as we know she does not have any true motives behind all of the chaos she creates besides it being fun. Riot has described Jinx as seeing other people through a cloud of dust, she's dis-associative.
You can't go and claim these characters are Chaotic Evil when not all of the stuff they do is evil. Harley Quinn has done a lot of bad things, but on the other hand she has done a lot of good things. Jinx has done a lot of bad things, but not for the sake of being bad but because she's bonkers.
Warlord Dienekes1 votesWell, yes I can. Because the alignment system was never meant to mean that the character can only perform actions that that are always fitting their box on the chart. Hell, Gary Gygax said that characters are more complex and evil people still have their own principles and loved ones. That doesn't suddenly stop them from being evil. Saving a puppy doesn't suddenly wipe the slate clean when you've got a couple hundred innocents you murdered. If it did the entire alignment system would break every time a character had any complexity at all.
Also, come on man. The pregnant Canary bit isn't even canon. It's from a comic about a video game. Admittedly a very good comic, but that's like saying Superman is lawful evil because of it. That's not the "real" Superman, nor the "real" Harley.
Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votesWell going off of that logic you can't go and claim just because Jinx and Harley have killed people it immediately makes them Chaotic Evil. The phrases goes both ways.
Killing a few people doesn't immediately make you pure evil or Chaotic Evil for that matter. Garen has killed people knowing he'd be ending lives, Jinx does it amongst her own mayhem un-intentionally. She's Chaotic, but she's by no means evil. There's clearly no convincing you but that's just my two cents.
You can't argue canon when DC Has countless different time-lines, worlds and reboots all within themselves.
Unlike the Marvel cinematic Universe there is no one linear timeline that defines the DC universe.
It's a multi-verse system.
In that verse yes, it is canon.
Warlord Dienekes2 votesContext my good man, context. Harley has killed innocents because she was bored. Or because the Joker told her to. Or because Ivy told her to. Or because they inconvenienced her in some way (one guy asked for her to pay for her ice cream cone got his head smashed in).
Garen, at least in the original lores, killed enemy combatants to defend his people and home. I have no idea what his new motivation is, but I'd guess something similar.
One is clearly evil. And she is unrepentant of that evil. She hasn't gone through a grand character change that goes "Yeah, that horrible, terrible shit that should damn me to the DC version of Hell was wrong. I won't do that anymore." (Outside of one good future elseworld story anyway)
She still actively kills people for the laughs. Only currently she's trying to get out from Joker's thumb while she does it.
Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votesI'm hardly a man, but I don't think Context adds to your side of the argument.
You're looking at in a vacuum and then lumping the characters into a linear scale as result.
Warlord Dienekes2 votesContext, my good non-man, context.
Lumping into a scale is literally the point of the alignment system. Lumping together characters with similar motivations and actions. Of which, Harley (and Jinx) fit the descriptions provided for the Chaotic Evil alignment.
Does this mean they cannot be complex characters? Hell no, some amazing characters fit the Chaotic Evil alignment.
Does this mean they can never ever do anything good? Also, no. Unless they're in some sort of magic bound that they can only perform actions that fit their alignment, say if they had take the Paladin's Oath. Or Paladin of Slaughter if we want to go the CE route, though holy crap their oath is a mess. But not every character is a Paladin of Slaughter. And hell, even the Joker has performed a good act before. He once paid for a minions messy divorce. Does that suddenly make him not in the running for most evil character in DC? No, hell no. He then raped the wife. But still, the alignment system is about painting in broad strokes and generalities. And Harley fits pretty squarely into Chaotic Evil.
Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votesExcept that the argument can be applied both ways. You could argue for either with the right context and word twisting.
Imo she fits perfectly in the Chaotic Neutral category. She's a bad person, but she still does good things.
You're still looking at in a vacuum.
Warlord Dienekes1 votesNo, I'm looking at the definitions provided by Gygax. Chaotic Neutral specifically does not have a disregard for life, while Chaotic Evil does. And her actions she's taken during her crime sprees definitely shows her with a disregard for life. Murder of innocents is considered one of the unforgivables in the D&D alignment system, of which Harley is outrageously guilty. She has killed more people in comics than any known serial killer in the real world.
But, again, that doesn't mean she can't save someone if she wants to. Evil can still have friends, evil can still have (often warped) morals.
Remember, Neutral, is us. Neutral are the random people in the street who may prefer Good, but don't really actively pursue it. Except maybe volunteering at a soup kitchen or something equally trivial. Evil are the ones that kill for pleasure, which she is most certainly guilty of doing.
Big Lincoln4 votes
Brain Errör 4041 votes
Mirkhail1 voteshe isn't a villain, for the most of the series at least,
Stars Shaper4 votes
Is one of the most succesful retcons and is probably the most evil charatcer ever.
He doesn't do it for ammiration/art He doesn't give anything to his victims before eating them He doesn't care about rules nor trespassers.
He is just the evil guy going to conquer the world. Plus you can't kill him.
blackfootedfox3 votesDid someone say evil but likeable?
Heinous Bearclaw3 votes
Mix, mix, swiiirl, mix...
Bottom Laner3 votesThe only villainy that Draaaaaaaaaaaaaaven committed was keeping so Draaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaven to himself. Everyone should be able to witness the true Draaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaavenness that is Draaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaven
Divine Winds2 votesAfter reading the lore Viktor was only a troubled teen Jayce was the real villain
jayce >.>
SolarisCorvus1 votesNeither of them are the villian since they both misunderstand eachothers intentions. The true villian might be stanwick.
LatetotheRace2 votesI feel like the only Villain is
A being of pure sin and lust.
TheBentOn32 votesI feel like the only Villain is
A gentleman of refined tastes.
LatetotheRace1 votesUh... yeah... suuure.
DoktorKaiser2 votesHow is even a villain any more? He literally didnt do anything purely evil in these stories, all he did was help people. I mean hell I am happy, I myself made several QQ posts about him being pure villain, he should be a hero with questionable methods which he now is, yaaay !
La Bello2 votesKled isnt evil hes really more of a Anti-Hero with a murderous tendency. Basically the Fuzzy Lumpkins of Runeterra. He doesnt want world domination or the downfall of humanity. He just wants to be left alone on his property.
Draven isn't pure evil. its his JOB to kill people. he just does it with style.(he served in the Noxian army then later on became a executioner because he loves killing and putting on a show). Draven doesn't prey on innocent bystanders or anything.
Jinx causes widespread destruction and mayhem but rarely seems to actually hurt people (only robots).
Jhin might arguably be "pure evil" but personally I think he errs more on the side of insanity+ misunderstood.He is fully aware that what he is doing is wrong but he is absolutely powerless to stop himself. He probably actually wants Zed or Shen to finally stop him.
Tahm is Evil but he its more of a Faustian bargain so if you find yourself suffering by his hands you only have yourself to blame
Guardman1 votesKled is about as evil as the old neighbor who won't give back a ball hit into his yard.
TequilaZombie1 votesWell, if that neighbor kills you went you step into his yard to retrieve the ball, you're right.
Mirage Night1 votes Most definitely
SolarisCorvus1 votesKleds not evil in his eyes because he is just the epitomy of noxus. If he wants your stuff he will try to kill you for it, if you dont want him taking your stuff then you have kill him no easy way around it. He lives by survival of the fittest and in his eyes he is being absolutely fair.
Meep Man1 votesI don't see Draven as evil at all. His job is just very "grim" and he tries to make it NOT grim. It's his job and he did it to escape poverty with his brother and show Noxus they had strength. That's not evil.
CrazyBear19871 votesWhere my 
at?
