[Concept] Shaco Rework

deltemp951512··4 votes·2,036 views

This is currently a work in progress so i am open to criticism and new ideas. I am developing this idea as I go. The main point here is to make Shaco feel more useful and less of a troll pick. I have also not figured out the best way to rebalance some of his current passives just yet so I am still working on that part.

Passive - Backstab auto-crit with basic attacks from behind. crit % scales with level.

Q - Deceive Shaco goes into stealth (no longer blinks). Shaco can re-activate Deceive on an enemy champion, minion, or neutral monster to blink behind the enemy champion striking them from behind. (on-hits and crits apply to Q damage [maybe])

W - Jack in the Box I think the boxes are one of the key things that make Shaco who he is so i wouldnt recommend changing them.

E - Poisoned Shiv Activating E adds X amount of damage to Shacos next basic attack and applies a poison de-buff. Auto attack reset. Poisoned minions and neutral monsters have a chance to miss their attack.

R - Hallucination Shaco now spawns 4 clones surrounding an enemy that do 20% (maybe lower) damage to the target. Clones cannot crit but MIGHT do on-hits.*

*Debating if clones should do on hit damage because that may make item 3153 and item 1419 way over powered on shaco.

32 Comments

Shac Norris5 votes

Passive - Backstab auto-crit with basic attacks from behind. crit % scales with level.

You just killed AP Shaco.

Also, what the hell is the point of having crits on backstabs, if you have no means of catching up to the enemy, have absolutly NO slows or CC (NO, boxes arn't a reliable source of CC) since you removed E's slow in your proposed changes. The enemy can just walk away like nothing happened. Also, please dont tell me to ''buy MS'', that's literally the only way you could play Shaco. MS, frozen mallet and on hit effects would be the only thing built on Shaco EVERYGAME. Bye bye diversity (100% crit, ohe, AP, bruiser, backdoor..)

E - Poisoned Shiv Activating E adds X amount of damage to Shacos next basic attack

Yup, AP Shaco's dead. His ability to finish low enemies and to catch up to ANYONE also just vanished in thin air.

E: Poisoned minions and neutral monsters have a chance to miss their attack.

You just ignored the whole reason why RIOT made it so that his E slowed monsters' attack speed %chance isnt an healthy mechanic.

Q: Shaco goes into stealth (no longer blinks)... (on-hits and crits apply to Q damage [maybe])

So are you saying that you can't crit properly after coming out of stealth? What the fuck is the point of having an empowered auto attack (with your proposed E changes) if you can't crit 100% with it (since you proposed having %crit damage per level as your new backstab passive)

Also, how do you expect him to be able to ESCAPE anyone? To OUTPLAY anyone? In your proposed changed, the enemy can just buy a pink and rape him since he's immobile and have no means of getting in AND out.

R - Hallucination Shaco now spawns 4 clones surrounding an enemy ..

Wait what? Whatever happened to ''vanish for a second and appear with a clone'', now you would just have 4 clones appear around an enemy? Did you mean like you're just standing there and they appear like Azir's soldiers, where you make them appear from afar or like they just spawn near you like the current clone? Because having 4 clones appear on an enemy would either be completly overpowered and braindead, or completly useless.

Also, you didn't mention if they would blow up upon death or not.

If you have 4 clones, you OBVIOUSLY wouldn't be able to control even 2 of them, does that mean that you HAVE to tell ALL FOUR of them to move at the same time? Wouldn't that make that EXTREMELY OBVIOUS that they're not the real Shaco? Did you think this through before posting it or did you just brainstorm it?

Worst Shaco rework idea i've ever seen. It feels like it was made by someone who absolutly hate playing against Shaco, never played him, doesn't understand his different play styles, and overall just wants to never see him again.

But i could be wrong, what is your take on this?

  • Shac Norris, experienced AP Shaco main.
deltemp9515121 votes

I didnt add in hardly any scaling, ap or ad, so ap shaco could still be possible.

"This is currently a work in progress so i am open to criticism and new ideas. I am developing this idea as I go. The main point here is to make Shaco feel more useful and less of a troll pick. I have also not figured out the best way to rebalance some of his current passives just yet so I am still working on that part."

Did you even read this part or did you skip straight to the move set?

Shac Norris3 votes

''a work in progress''

The WHOLE thing just kills Shaco's whole identity, every single change destroy his ability to outplay his opponents (or even attack them properly), and don't talk to me about ''the possibility of having ap scalings'', how the shit would AP Shaco be viable if he could only autoattack his enemies since there's NO ranged ability? That's literally what AD Shaco does, and he does it 10 times better, since you know, AD. The whole point of AP Shaco is to poke and get out of enemy retaliation range, then repeat this process until you win the teamfight.

The only reason why Shaco ''feels like a troll pick'' is because his kit is outdated, just like Poppy's kit was, that doesn't make him any less viable. There is so many good shaco rework ideas out there, but yours is just bad, there's no other way i can put it, there's literally NO WAY that you can change this into a good thing for Shaco.

Also, try to refute my arguments please, so that i can see the logic behind your proposed changes.

EDIT: I edited my comment and it cloned itself.. I think I might be playing too much Shaco..

DrugsForRobots2 votes

I was going to give my 2 cents, but you spoke enough for me.

As a Shaco main, can I get your thoughts on this update? It's really pretty graphically to say the least.

deltemp9515121 votes

is this a concept or going to happen? i love the double E.

DrugsForRobots1 votes

Just my concept that I hope will happen. Just want to know what Shaco mains think about it. Thx for any feedback!

Shac Norris1 votes

It's late and i have work tomorow.. but fuck it, it's too interesting to just ignore.

passive : Shaco’s basic attack will Stun icon stun enemy champions for 1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75 seconds - forcing them to laugh uncontrollably... Due to the nature of its conditional trigger, any attack Shaco makes against a target below

Question: the any attack, is it really ANY attack, like Shaco's clone auto attack/explosion or his E? It could prove much useful to outplay your enemies if the clone could proc it, but at the same time, it shouldn't be like Shaco's double duskblade proc, there would need to be a single cooldown for both of them if it were to be implemented.

I love the forced laugh, but i think it should be one of E's passive (Two shyv POISON). As for the actual passive, It's actually a really good idea, i never even thought of that before, but now that i see it with my own eyes, it all becomes so clear that Shaco could use this have this, it would fix a problem that Shaco have had for ever, which is his unreliable CC. However, if he gets a stun on his auto attack, then his boxes may prove to be a problem, since... NEVERMIND! You've thought of that too, you clever bastard!

W: ..It remains hidden for 50 / 60 / 70 / 80 / 90 seconds.. 200% ap scaling.. Enemies that come too close will trigger the JitB’s countdown, causing it to spring after 3 seconds. Enemy champions will hear a faint music upon entering the Sight icon vision range of a box... The Box has 3 health...Boxes will not be triggered by enemies that Shaco does not have sight of.

I like the scaling duration time, but it may prove to be quite overpowered if a fed AP Shaco with 40% cdr just start spamming them, but again, red trinket exists for that, and whenever i play vs competent players, they always get 2 red trinkets and buy pinks if i start getting out of control. Maybe place a box limit if it gets out of control

The 200% AP Scaling along with the 3s countdown just sounds like a big SURPRISE, YOU'RE DEAD! to ANYONE, even tanks (who Shaco is supposed to be afraid of), it may be a typing mistake though, if it's not, please tell me the reasoning behind it, as i do not see how it wouldn't be overpowered if the box actually gets to deal its damage.I DO think they could use some more damage on the second ability rank though.

As for the 3s countdown itself and the ''faint music'' upon entering a box's vision range, i'll be against it unless you give me some really good arguments. I actually thought that you might be part of Riot's staff (because of how well thought and well written your previous abilities were) before i noticed a big crucial mistake in your W's changes. If the enemies know when they'll get feared (sorry to interrupt again, but i don't think an instant fear is healthy or fun to play against, i mean it IS fun to play as Shaco and use it, but playing against him and having to deal with it must not be really fun, so i see why you're proposing this change) then they can just get a free red trinket and scan the whole area for boxes who have yet to activate. (because you can't use your trinket to disable an activated trap).

Also, wouldn't it be really bad for lane Shaco if the enemies could know when they're going to be ambushed 3 seconds before it happens? Unless you go all in on em and try to stun them with your autoattack, then i don't think it has it's place. If anything, i'd change it to 0.25 or 0.5 seconds only because you have to put Shaco's boxes perfectly on top of each others for them to all activate at once.

3 health is too much for Shaco's boxes. 1 and half or 2 would be perfect, since you can stack so many on top of each others. 1 and a half and an aoe damage reduction would be sweet.

Boxes will not be triggered by enemies that Shaco does not have sight of. I see a problem with that. Shaco's boxes also act as mini-wards, how could he not have vision over someone near his boxes?

I have too much to say about this... i'll end up not sleeping. lol.

**Casting Jack in the Box creates a puff of smoke that is visible even through brush and the fog of war, and makes a distinctive sound that can be heard by enemies. **. ^This would lower lane Shaco's ability to deceive enemies, and i don't understand the logic with this change, if enemies are already warned 3 seconds before his boxes are proc'd, why do they need to be warned ONCE MORE with this? Also bush surprises would be completly ruined if people could scout ahaid in the fog of war and hear a sound of where a box is being placed, could ruin alot of barons fights.

**Boxes are immune to ability damage and displacement effects while in stealth. As such, they can be used to block skill shots. **

^Do you mean that boxes would be able to stop skillshots even while in stealth? Because they should not, you could just build a wall and stop all the immigrant skillshots from getting in, sounds like someone we all know and love, right?

I would like to add that Shaco's boxes proc spellvamp as of right now (because you only mentionned rylais)

OKAY ILL STOP TALKING ABOUT HIS BOXES NOW, i could go on forever though.. geez.

Keep in mind that i like hearing the reasoning behind changes like those, could you tell me a bit more about how you chose the ''3 seconds''?

Q: basically a normal Shaco Q with added ad/ap scaling for added damage.

Mana cost reduced to 75 at all ranks? I think it should be 75 at rank 1, and go lower and lower like it already is, the more you progress in a game, the more Shaco needs to cast spells, and he already has a small mana pool.

I don't have much to say about it, since i kind of agree with it for the AP scaling part, but the AD scaling part, do you think it would be appropriate to have more crit damage, if you throw in the new passive stun as well?

^Just some though food for you.

E: Passive: Two consecutive basic attacks and / or Two-Shiv Poison.png TSP from behind will cause subsequent basic attacks and / or Two-Shiv Poison.png TSP from behind to deal 20% bonus damage and Slow icon slow Shaco’s target by 20% for 2 seconds.

I can see this, along with the passive's stun, becoming a bit controversial, full AS Shaco would certainly make a comeback, but AP Shaco could suffer from this, as his E's active damage AND scaling has been reduced to make up for the 20% bonus damage and the bonus shyv. You see, you mentionned a 20% bonus damage (which is totally fine, considering Shaco's passive right now) but Shaco would have to attack TWICE to get the bonus damage? E can be casted twice BUT to get the bonus damage, do you need to attack a THIRD time, or is it the second? Also, would the cooldown start after the first cast or the second? AP Shaco players would need to buy a lich bane everygame if they wanted to get the most damage out of this passive

Another thing i found after going through the whole thing again is that you mentionned that after the 2 hits that HAVE to be from behind, you could only get the bonus 20% damage if you kept attacking from behind, does that mean that AP Shaco has no chance of ever getting that 20% bonus damage? You can't build attack speed on AP Shaco, so at most, you could get 1 shyv in (if the enemy tries to run that is). A quick solution i found to that would be a Q reset (1s stealth, ms boost, no blink, only if your Q is on cooldown, you being stealthed wouldn't prevent you from using Q again if it comes back during your 1s stealth) whenever you succesfully activate your 20% damage boost. Same logic was used for Fiora's ultimate minigame , she needed a way to hit every side of the enemy, so RIOT gave her a gapcloser and MS boosts (instead of the traditional lock on dash she had)

Also, could this be considered a braindead ability if it turns out to be too strong? Like you press the same button twice and just destroy a squishy?

I need to mention that i am NOT good with numbers, so i don't know just how much damage a full build AP Shaco would be able to dish out with this second shyv change, and just how effective MR would be against it. It would certainly help against tanks, with some magic pen, but would squishy targets even stand a chance against a fed AP Shaco?

In short, I'm too tired to be able to make anything out of the numbers, i'll check tomorow morning before going to work if i have the chance.

Neeeext!

R: Active: After a short delay Shaco disappears momentarily and then reappears with his doppelganger. It lasts for 22 seconds, but expires twice as fast while under True Sight icon true sight.

Could YOU put a pink down and have it expire faster? (not the team for trolling protecting)

While Shaco is not visible to the enemy team, the clone deals 100% of Shaco’s damage with its basic attacks.

^I really like this concept, but could it be abused and combo'd with Shaco's Q? Especially because of the passive's stun, you could get close to someone, stun him, pop your ult, hit him a few times, then use your Q and let your clone attack for a bit before dealing the finishing blow, i think it might be a little bit overpowered, especially since 100% crit 2.5 AS/s Shacos would make a comeback.

Shaco and Shaclone always reappear a fixed distance apart from one another, facing the direction Shaco was facing upon casting.

But do you still spawn randomly in the area? Or do you spawn closest from your mouse (or some other similar mechanic)?

I also noticed a small damage nerf to the ultimate, it's already hard enough to command your clone to make it explode on somebody, i don't think the damage nerf was needed, unless it's justified by the double E slows. Shaco's rank 2 ultimate is already so useless since Shaco's ultimate damage falls off during mid game, he doesn't need a nerf to its damage, he would in fact need a buff. (it's not even worth ranking up over E or W at level 11 right now)

I think the ultimate's explosion radius should be 275, since so much space between you and your enemy is lost because of his AI command-response time. Even the most experienced Shaco players have to concentrate only on controlling the clone, when you should be able to control both without worry.

I hit the character limit. Crap. Good night.

DrugsForRobots1 votes

First off, thanks for the critical feedback! I was really not expecting this, haha. You must really care about Shaco. :D

A bit of context: I love Shaco, been playing him since s3. I especially love playing him as an AP support, not that he's great in this meta (I'm not very good). I'm terrified at what Riot might do with Shaco and I'm not sure if doing something is worse than continuing to ignore him and the situation of stealth in League. To that end, I don't think Riot can 'fix' Shaco without looking at League's vision system.

Question: the any attack, is it really ANY attack, like Shaco's clone auto attack/explosion or his E?

I'm not sure if clone should proc such a passive with it's basics. My intention was only the real Shaco and only basic attacks.

As for the actual passive, It's actually a really good idea, i never even thought of that before, but now that i see it with my own eyes, it all becomes so clear that Shaco could use this have this, it would fix a problem that Shaco have had for ever, which is his unreliable CC.

You can't spell slaughter without laughter. ;)

(Also, Sona's ult makes champs dance, why wouldn't Shaco make his prey laugh? Any Shaco rework / update that fails to capture this is missing a huge opportunity!)

The 200% AP Scaling along with the 3s countdown just sounds like a big SURPRISE, YOU'RE DEAD! to ANYONE, even tanks

His boxes on live currently have 20% AP scaling, which is 180% over the total duration. I gave his boxes a slight ratio bump (25% & 200%) in exchange for having the 3-sec delay on activation. The actual per rank is the same as it currently is on live.

As for the 3s countdown itself and the ''faint music'' upon entering a box's vision range, i'll be against it unless you give me some really good arguments.

The idea here is that stealth can be effectively countered without needing a source of True Sight if each instance of stealth came with it's own tell-tale signs. The faint music would clue players in (at least, those who are paying attention) that they're in danger. It also has a psychological effect. Notice that I say, "hear a faint music upon entering vision range of a box." Not many people realize this, but Shaco's boxes have a huge vision range (they're literally wards that bite.) I also think it makes since thematically (a Jack in the Box must wind down before it pops) while also having counterplay (at least, more than they currently do.) Jhin's traps, which are not unlike Shaco's boxes, wind down before dealing their damage, which is an example of Riot's current design. I think Shaco would be better for it, but I think Jhin eats up a lot of the space Shaco does / could have occupied. (Cannibalized.)

I also think Riot could make Shaco's puff of smoke larger and more animated / colorful. He also has something not many players notice: a very subtle laugh when he disappears. I think it would be interesting if your prey could hear it within, like, 2000 range (Vayne's passive).

Also, wouldn't it be really bad for lane Shaco if the enemies could know when they're going to be ambushed 3 seconds before it happens?

With the JitB's huge sight range, they'll know they're in danger but they won't know the extent of the danger or necessarily where it's coming from. Maybe there's just a lonely JitB spying on them, or maybe they've wandered into an illuminati configuration... :^)

And if players had more options, more ways to express True Sight and Detection, either in their abilities or with items, in unique forms and instances, there would be even more counterplay for stealth, meaning Riot could, in turn, play with stealth! (This is what I mean by them taking another look at vision, but it's that's another discussion...)

3 health is too much for Shaco's boxes. 1 and half or 2 would be perfect, since you can stack so many on top of each others. 1 and a half and an aoe damage reduction would be sweet.

I kinda agree. I'm not sure what to do with them though. I think 1 and a half HP would be to weak, but any sort of damage reduction or temporary invulnerability would be sweet.

Boxes will not be triggered by enemies that Shaco does not have sight of. I see a problem with that. Shaco's boxes also act as mini-wards, how could he not have vision over someone near his boxes?

If you place a box just outside of a bush, the enemy can be in the bush and next to the box without triggering it. Shaco would need vision inside the bush. In the same way, Teemo can be stealthed in a bush, you drop a pink ward outside the bush, walk into the bush, and still not see Teemo. Riot, please.

This is also the way it currently works on Shaco on Live.

Casting Jack in the Box creates a puff of smoke that is visible even through brush and the fog of war, and makes a distinctive sound that can be heard by enemies.

This is currently how it works on Live. It's very subtle. Like, if anyone near you is using any of their abilities, you won't hear it, and I highly doubt you'll see it either.

Boxes are immune to ability damage and displacement effects while in stealth. As such, they can be used to block skill shots.

This is also currently the way it works on Live. I copied and pasted the 'addition info' from Shaco's page on the LoL Wiki. Used to block skillshots like how you can drop it to block a Blitz hook currently on Live. :o)

Keep in mind that i like hearing the reasoning behind changes like those, could you tell me a bit more about how you chose the ''3 seconds''?

Partly because the flavor of having JitB must play it's tune before it springs, and more importantly because it creates moments of tension. For example, Fizz ult lasts 3 secs, and counts down, which is time to think and react. I mentioned Jhin's traps and their delay, consider Ekko's Parallel Convergence which also takes approx 3 seconds. Consider how much fairer Teemo's traps would be, if rather than applying a DoT to the enemy, releasted a 'poison cloud' a la Singed and Cassie that steadily poisoned and slowed enemies in an AoE. Moving out of the cloud (the DoT AoE) would be real counterplay! (That last on is a bit of an aside...)

you mentioned that after the 2 hits that HAVE to be from behind, you could only get the bonus 20% damage if you kept attacking from behind, does that mean that AP Shaco has no chance of ever getting that 20% bonus damage?

Not at all! You mention Fiora and MS bonuses and hinted at how AP Shaco and AS don't mesh well together, I've done something rather sly you see...

Shaco now has 4 ways of getting Backstabs. Killing Joke, Decieve, JitB, & Hallucinate. How they're used to get that bonus damage is up to the Shaco. :^)

AP Shaco can still harass and chase (even better now!), and his E can still kinda feel like an execute since it's a homing projectile. In order to really 'combo off' on someone, I imagine they might E, Q-empowered AA, and E again for maximum burst. If they weren't already dead, another AA would proc the Killing Joke.

Also, could this be considered a braindead ability if it turns out to be too strong?

I imagine that their would be something like a .75s delay before you can recast it (out of the 4 seconds you have). Shaco also has his TSP casting animation which lasts about .33-.5s which can make the difference. It's always possible this is too strong / unfair of an ability (but Rumble of all champs gets the ability to reactivate his E to shoot a second harpoon!?)

Could YOU put a pink down and have it expire faster? (not the team for trolling protecting)

Haha, negative. The idea was flavor purposes. True Sight and Shaco (and the rest of the stealth crew) could afford to have neat interactions with one another. If the Hallucination time is halved while under True Sight, then Shaco's ultimate can afford to be buffed in a really powerful way (duration).

Could [...] be abused and combo'd with Shaco's Q? Especially because of the passive's stun, you could get close to someone, stun him, pop your ult, hit him a few times, then use your Q and let your clone attack for a bit before dealing the finishing blow.

He can't trigger the stun unless they're already about to die, but using your ult like you described is something we Shaco's already do, right? :^)

But do you still spawn randomly in the area? Or do you spawn closest from your mouse (or some other similar mechanic)?

Supposedly, currently on Live, Shaco will always appear to the right (or is it left?) of his clone which is either slightly to the right (or is it left?) of where he previously was when the ability was cast. I'd like Riot to really play up this effect, making the distance between them much larger, so that he can reliably ult to pass through walls (provided he positioned himself to the right (or is it left?) of the wall.)

I also noticed a small damage nerf to the ultimate.

I didn't want anyone needlessly accusing me of wanting to buff Shaco. @_@

I think the ultimate's explosion radius should be 275.

That would be nice, though, I do think the AoE in this game is getting a bit out of hand on some champs. I'd also like them to make Shaco's clone have the exact stats Shaco would have (it currently doesn't benefit from runes or masteries.)

Shac Norris1 votes

**Boxes are immune to ability damage and displacement effects while in stealth. As such, they can be used to block skill shots. **

while in stealth **As such, they can be used to block skill shots. **

They can block skillshots while stealthed? o_O nope

He can't trigger the stun unless they're already about to die, but using your ult like you described is something we Shaco's already do, right? :^)

We already do it.. but the enemy usually has a chance to escape after we chunk 80% of their health, add a stun to that and it's an assured kill 100% of the time..

By the way i still don't think that the 3s delay with the enemy being notified of your traps is a good idea. No matter what you say, they would just either back off, making you waste your precious boxes or red trinket the whole place. You can't place boxes in the middle of a lane because of minions, so it would be pretty obvious where the boxes are.

Every single time you would be baiting a low enemy, he would simply walk away as soon as he heard the boxes. Or everytime an enemy would walk in the jungle or something and would get near one, the enemy would just be like ''oh, Shaco box, lets not walk down that path''

That would be nice, though, I do think the AoE in this game is getting a bit out of hand on some champs.

How could giving shaco's clone a 25 unit explosion radius buff make him overpowered? It would simply make it a little easier to manipulate his ultimate.

**His boxes on live currently have 20% AP scaling, which is 180% over the total duration. **

I thought that you meant 200% on every hits. Yeah.

DrugsForRobots1 votes

His boxes can block skillshots when they're placed before they go into stealth, and are immune to displacement effects and damage, you should know this. That sentence is copy-pasted from LoL Wiki, but maybe the wording is awkward.

We already do it.. but the enemy usually has a chance to escape after we chunk 80% of their health, add a stun to that and it's an assured kill 100% of the time...

That's why it's an execute. It's also why I've made Shaco's 'combo' take longer. He doesn't get a crit from Q unless he attacks from stealth and then attacks again. His E has it's casting time, and a short delay before he can reactivate it, so he shouldn't be able to just faceroll. He also can't get the 20% bonus damage until after he gets two backstabs, giving his opponent a chance to face their fear...

By the way i still don't think that the 3s delay with the enemy being notified of your traps is a good idea. No matter what you say, they would just either back off, making you waste your precious boxes or red trinket the whole place. You can't place boxes in the middle of a lane because of minions, so it would be pretty obvious where the boxes are.

Red Trinket shouldn't disable traps to start with - it's a case of Riot hating Teemo and Shaco specifically. Revealing is fine, but disabling is BS. Also, to trigger the boxes you have to be as close to them as they currently require on Live. Currently on LIve the enemy can just casually walk up to them, get feared by .5 seconds and take two box autos before walking out of range. With this change, boxes now cost less mana at all levels, have a shorter cooldown, are stronger, last longer, and aren't proc'ed instantly because a minion / champion wandered too close. It also makes Shaco easier to catch, since he can't just drop a box in the middle of a run and have it CC the enemy while he gets away. It means facechecking a bush doesn't get you 100-0 with a JitB nest, since they don't spring right away. And if they Sweep your area of boxes, then you've baited out their primary means of detecting Shaco - for a minute or so at least.

Every single time you would be baiting a low enemy, he would simply walk away as soon as he heard the boxes. Or everytime an enemy would walk in the jungle or something and would get near one, the enemy would just be like ''oh, Shaco box, lets not walk down that path''

Then his boxes would be functioning as a huge zoning tool. Also, I think it would be rather difficult to hear the boxes unless you're actively listening for them and not spamming your abilities. (Is a Riven really going to hear them over all her flips and dashing? Likewise, listening for the music during a skirmish or teamfight will be tough...)

How could giving shaco's clone a 25 unit explosion radius buff make him overpowered? It would simply make it a little easier to manipulate his ultimate.

But you said: "I think the ultimate's explosion radius should be 275." The Ult's current explosion radius is 125 units (within its melee range). That's why it feels like it misses so often. The total range of explosion is 250. If you make clone explosion have a radius of 275, then the total range is 500 units, which is substantially larger. (Slightly smaller than Hydra's AoE cleave, for comparison.)

Shac Norris1 votes

**But you said: "I think the ultimate's explosion radius should be 275." The Ult's current explosion radius is 125 units **

I'm pretty sure that his ult's explosion radius is 250 as of right now.. and i meant to give it a +25 units buff.

Then his boxes would be functioning as a huge zoning tool. Also, I think it would be rather difficult to hear the boxes unless you're actively listening for them

Then beating lane Shaco all comes down to who has a headset? Extremely unhealthy. But yeah, it would be a decent zoning tool, but i think you're ignoring that the enemy will, most of the time, SEE you place your boxes, so what's the point of having the whole ''paranoia'' thing going on if they already know where they are (except if they're in a bush or you place them BEFORE they get into lane.. You can put 2-3 boxes while they walk down a lane, but give it 20s after the enemy enters lane the first 2 boxes will already be gone.

I'd rather get kills than scare the enemy away everytime.

Also, something i didn't mention... something.. extremely important.

How will Shaco survive attacks by assassins such as Zed or any gank at all if his boxes don't activate when they walk over them, since they take 3s to do so

Right now i can save my arse by fearing Zed before he 1 shots me with his ultimate, if he ults me, 3s is WAY MORE than enough to eviscerate me.

Gosh i don't think we're ever going to have the same opinion about that big delay..

Red Trinket shouldn't disable traps to start with

Amen.

...get feared by .5 seconds and take two box autos before walking out of range.

And that's why i proposed that they take 0.5s ~ 1s to activate AND play a noise ONLY at that time.

But don't you think it could get overpowed, like, you just put a box outside the bot bush near their tower, and when they arrive, they walk into the bush and get buttfucked by allies since he gets feared towards the bush if he doesn't flash right away? 0.5s does feel more reasonable.

Boxes are immune to ability damage and displacement effects while in stealth.

''WHILE in stealth''

I think you can see why i was confused by it.

Shac Norris1 votes

Turns out RIOT should have listened to US for Shaco's champion update.

Also, as for your rework concept, i have a few new ideas

When you activate it, it's the same as before, but with reduced damage, and IF you land an auto attack on an enemy unit its cooldown is refreshed instantly for a short amount of time (CD starts there even if you use the second Q), If you re-activate it during the given time period you get to blink again, only to a smaller distance, with only ~0.2s of invisibility and your next autoattack stuns the target for 0.5s.

I think this would provide your much needed extra time to burst an enemy time instead of 1 shotting like he was (RIOT doesn't want champs to do that anymore)

Your boxes now take 1s to activate (activation timer starts right away if an enemy is in range when you put it but it takes 1 more second, making it 2 seconds like it already is), but have a second layer of activation around the original one. (half the size of the first layer) The second layer can't be activated by minions, only by champions and slows the enemy instead of fearing them. Its attack range is now as large as the limit of the second layer, but being in that zone makes the box deal less damage to you.

Shac Norris1 votes

Alright i'm back to get a few more details in.

Mana regen. 7.2 – 14.8

I can't accept the fact that you nerfed his late game mana regen, he literally can't use a full combo and be more than half mana. The only way that Shaco can keep up in lane is by spamming abilities since he's a squishy melee, so nerfing his mana sustain makes no sense. I can't speak for jungle Shaco, but even he, without a blue buff, suffer from it.

A point that i didn't mention on your box changes is that, for lane Shaco, you can't expect him to keep an oponent still for 3 seconds, Shaco is way too squishy for it to be of any use in a lane, and can't see it being much useful in the jungle either.

**Hallucinate can be cast during Deceive's stealth without breaking it - the clone will spawn stealthed! **

There could be a problem with that, i always use ultimate (literally everygame) to make the enemy think that i'm getting out of stealth, while i go hide in a bush/just sneak up behind the enemy as he attacks the clone or something, or to outplay someone during a fight, so in those conditions, this change would be alright. But just the fact that everybody would know that it spawns invisible would make it quite obvious that he's not the real Shaco, if you take in consideration the ''While Shaco is not visible to the enemy team, the clone deals 100% of Shaco’s damage '', then you don't need to implement that mechanic. Instead, Shaco's clone should spawn invisible for ~0.5s ONLY IF Shaco is invisible and has 0.5s or more of invibility time left. This would create new oportunities, because as of right now, when you use your ultimate while invisible, he just spawns visible and has a small timer before he can attack, so the enemy can clearly see that he isn't the real one, and just focus on finding ME.

A funny change would be to make it so that enemies can hear you laugh while you're invisible. Just imagine the panic it would chaos it would cause in the bot lane!

A successful basic attack from stealth reveals Shaco, interrupts his opponent's attack, and marks his target as vulnerable, guaranteeing the next allied basic attack within 1.5 seconds Critical strike icon strikes critically for modified damage.

This is great for ganking AND support Shaco, but it might prove to be TOO great if you implement it along with the passive's stun, since you'd be able to dish out so much more damage already thanks to it.

I have another question, if you buy CDR, does your passive's cooldown go down, or is it a fixed passive?

I'm sorry that i don't give my opinion in ability order, i tried to, but i just couldn't, there's too many things to say and i can't think of every argument at the same time. Plus i didn't really have the time to sort it all out.

Also, i don't know if i already said it, but i'm giving my opinion mainly based on AP Shaco, since that's what i have 370k mastery points on. It's been too long since i've played JG Shaco, so i kind of forgot how it felt, that's why i didn't talk much about it.

Thank you for your time, i hope that you give me some counter arguments if you think that i'm wrong on something :) It was fun writing all of this, i could really go on for much longer but THERE'S A FRIKKIN LIMIT. (there's some points that i didn't talk about, and some points that i've made that i don't agree with after thinking about it for a while, but i don't want to make this comment longer than it should be (because it WILL be if i start typing again). So i'll wait for YOUR response instead)

I have no regrets.

  • Shac Norris, actual AP Shaco main (yeah i know i'm sad)
DrugsForRobots1 votes

Here we go again!

I can't accept the fact that you nerfed his late game mana regen.

I'll fix this. Either it was before Riot changed mana regen and mana items, or it slipped my mind...

A point that i didn't mention on your box changes is that, for lane Shaco, you can't expect him to keep an oponent still for 3 seconds, Shaco is way too squishy for it to be of any use in a lane, and can't see it being much useful in the jungle either.

Support Shaco does have a difficult time in certain matchups, but boxes can now be used as a zoning and scouting tool (they already are used as such), while still being traps that you want the enemy to fumble into. Enemy champions looking for the engage will have to step into your traps, but because they don't spring right away, they must step further into the trap as well if they wish to reach you. On top of this, Shaco's E slows twice, and his ally with their CC, should be able to kite around boxes, and once they spring...

As far as the jungle, Shaco shouldn't have much more difficulty than he does now. He might have to wait an addition 3 seconds for his box to spring, but the damage and utility his boxes (and kit as a whole) now have should keep him a very strong jungler.

Hallucinate can be cast during Deceive's stealth without breaking it - the clone will spawn stealthed!

Woops! This was something from an earlier iteration. It's not suppose to work that way.

Instead, Shaco's clone should spawn invisible for ~0.5s ONLY IF Shaco is invisible and has 0.5s or more of invibility time left.

This could be included without removing bonus damage clone gets when Shaco isn't visible. It would open up some new tricks for him. I'd call it a QoL buff. :)

A funny change would be to make it so that enemies can hear you laugh while you're invisible. Just imagine the panic it would chaos it would cause in the bot lane!

I think this is exactly the sort of counterplay Shaco needs! It's a chance to react, at least!

A successful basic attack from stealth reveals Shaco, interrupts his opponent's attack, and marks his target as vulnerable, guaranteeing the next allied basic attack within 1.5 seconds Critical strike icon strikes critically for modified damage. This is great for ganking AND support Shaco, but it might prove to be TOO great if you implement it along with the passive's stun, since you'd be able to dish out so much more damage already thanks to it.

Did you read the same stun I read? It's an execute, so you can't just run into lane and tickle someone into submission. :^)

Thank you for the feedback. I'm glad I could put these concepts through the gauntlet.

Maybe one day Riot will embrace sight and stealth, detection and denial. One day. Q.Q

Shac Norris2 votes

On top of this, Shaco's E slows twice, and his ally with their CC, should be able to kite around boxes, and once they spring...

I can see this becoming WAY too predictable.

**This could be included without removing bonus damage clone gets when Shaco isn't visible. **

Well, when you auto attack, you become visible, so i don't see why his clone wouldn't proc the 100% damage :l

__

As for the auto attack stun, i basically made my whole comment thinking it was a first auto attack proc, like Kha'zix's passive for example.

By the way, what's your stance on Shaco's boxes not being able to proc Frost Queen's Claim?

DrugsForRobots1 votes

By the way, what's your stance on Shaco's boxes not being able to proc Frost Queen's Claim?

IDK why they won't proc FQC except that Riot doesn't care enough to fix it. Shaco's boxes also won't proc Thunderlord's by themself, whereas Zyra's plants will.

Shac Norris1 votes

I had a good argument made against me when talking about boxes procing thunderlord's, it was that while it may help lane Shaco alot, it can also result in some random free burst on an enemy that isn't even remotely close to you, which could be considered an unhealthy mechanic.

However, FQC's passive is not all that strong, and gives gold, which Shaco REALLY needs, since he falls off really damned easily, yet RIOT wont fix it, no matter how much attention the issue gets (i got to the top of the boards 1-2 times, and so have others)

deltemp9515121 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shac Norris,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=yg8qu1uM,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2016-07-06T14:09:40.231+0000)

EDIT: I edited my comment and it cloned itself.. I think I might be playing too much Shaco..

LOL this is my favorite comment.

Also my thinking behind this was to give him more of caster type feel. so you would q, q on enemy, auto attack, use e for reset, and use clones to either finish off an enemy or escape out of a fight. and boxes dont need changed they are good the way they are imo. And this was a pretty rushed idea but i am so tired of seeing shaco under played and basically being so out dated that hes not as useful as a lot of other junglers so i wanted to try to come up with something, i tried keeping some of the things that give him his identity like the poison and auto crit. Also i forgot that the E passive was changed.

Great Ozymandius1 votes

First of all, you don't sound very open to criticism.

The problem is none of these changes -- absolutely none -- improve shaco or the game (unless you think removing shaco benefits the game). You also haven't thought very hard about why you are changing things, you are just doing so willy-nilly.

Why change backstab to a crit? What is the point of that? Some people think the backstab passive is problematic because it is 'win more' -- if shaco is ahead, you either run and take extra damage or you stay and die. But if shaco is behind, then you just fight him and he doesn't get the passive.

Changing backstab to a crit doesn't address these problems (I'm not even sure how problematic they are). All it does is remove the bonus to abilities like his shiv or tiamat procs. It sounds like the only thing you are doing here is killing build diversity. How is that an improvement? You haven't thought this through.

Getting rid of the blink on shaco completely destroys shaco. Now he can't jump over walls. His damage early game is actually fairly weak. Without the wall-jump, he can't use alternate ganking paths, and wards, even regular wards (considering the short duration of stealth) will spot him. He will become one of the worst gankers in the game (!!!!). In addition, he loses his ability to splitpush, he looses his ability to get to the backline in teamfights, and he loses most of his outplay potential in skirmishes (which is what makes him interesting). So it sounds like this change is designed to make shaco unviable and also make him boring to play. WHY WHY WHY.

You aren't changing the boxes. This is strange because virtually every shaco main agrees that the boxes aren't working very well beyond functioning as wards and improving early game clears/duels. The boxes are nigh useless in teamfights, getting destroyed accidentally by enemies. Any aoe damage kills a box, so the enemy doesn't even have to think about the box, the box just dies anyway.

Your changes to shiv are weird. Now shaco is 100% melee, with no poke and no way to catch up to people who have flashed after his all-in. Do you understand this? have you EVER played shaco?

And your ultimate. Good grief. That ultimate. You do realize that shaco is fun because of the mindgames? How his shaco going to use mindgames if he can't control his clones (there is no way you can control 4 pets in away that hides that they are pets). So now you have changes a compelling feature of shaco into a damaging leblanc passive.

Every change you made to shaco has made him a less interesting champion.

deltemp9515121 votes

I sense some hostility. Maybe instead of hating on everything I mentioned maybe you could give actual feedback instead of basically telling my im stupid and dont know shit about shaco. Take the shiv out of your ass and chill.

deltemp9515121 votes

bump

Friendly Ram1 votes

Don't like removing the blink from his q. Nice plan but not my cup of tea.

Ýones1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Happy Honker,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=yg8qu1uM,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-07-06T01:39:15.207+0000)

Don't like removing the blink from his q. Nice plan but not my cup of tea.

Not my cup of tea. Time to fill my joke list!

Lùmen1 votes

Good concept, but that ult will ruin me

Sans Hama1 votes

Why does he need a rework?

Shac Norris2 votes

He's too old, he's riddled with bugs and his kit needs some love.

Edit: i meant to say that his kit doesn't keep up with today's champion standarts, where they have tons of passives on their abilities.

deltemp9515121 votes

^ that

ff4sk1 votes

Shaco has a hard time chasing people down so I feel like his passive should be changed to something that can actually help him assassinate or chase down people instead of getting kited as soon as he burns his Q

passive - Shaco deals 20% more damage when attacking from behind. shaco gains 6%/12%/20% movement speed when near enemies with 50%/40%/30% health

Almost every assassin has an engage/escape tool that has some sort of reset or is on a low cooldown unlike shaco so I feel like this destroys his survivability in teamfights. so instead of leaving him to die as soon as he breaks Q I think he deserves a fighting chance and a choice to either all in or try to outplay and live.

Q - deceive Cost: 90/80/70/60/50 Mana Range: 400 Shaco teleports nearby and becomes invisible for 3.5 seconds.His next basic attack while in stealth will critically strike, dealing 140/160/180/200/220% damage (normal critical strikes deal 200% damage). If shaco breaks stealth without attacking then his next 3 basic attacks will reduce Decieve's Q by 1s

Now the tricky part, shaco's boxes. They're a core part of shaco's kit and I feel like there really doesn't need to be a change aside from maybe a few tweaks in numbers and maybe a buff to their health so they don't instantly get 1 shot late game while still being balanced early on.

SO yeah no changes to W besides a few number changes.

E - Two-shiv poison Not many changes to this ability either. I feel like it fits shaco perfectly and the only changes I might like seeing is either a change in the name or a poison passive like a shittier teemo cause it really makes no sense to call the ability by this name when it doesn't actually deal poison

Also a bit of number tweaking for this one, maybe give the clone a bit more duration while increasing the mana cost cause that shit dies near instantly

R - Hallucinate Cost: 100 > 200 Mana Range: 500 > 600 Shaco vanishes briefly and reappears with a clone that lasts up to 18 > 30 seconds. The clone deals 75% > 50% of Shaco's damage and receives 50% increased damage.On death, the clone detonates, dealing 300/450/600 (+100% Ability Power) magic damage to nearby enemies.

Thoughts?

Shac Norris1 votes

Shaco's clone costs too much, his mana pool is already too low, you shouldn't have to worry about using half of your mana just for one spell. As for the duration, it's already perfect as it is, it needs to explode sometime. And during teamfights, if no one breaks it, then it's just going to stand there for 30 seconds before it's damage can be of any use.

Anyway it's late, i'm going to sleep. I'll be back tomorow morning to take a look at it if i have the chance.

Digielf1 votes

Shaco will most likely not get touched before 2018

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