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What are your thoughts on abilities/passives taken/based from other champions in champion concepts?

Nikushimi Zero·Jun 30, 2015·1 votes·635 views

Hey there. I ask this question mainly because it gets hard to make a champion that has a passive which does something specific and keep it balanced/not too OP. This leads to usually looking at similar champions with either similar or same abilities.

For example. Currently I have a champion I'm working on which is all about Armor, Rallying, and pretty much shrugging off damage while keeping the enemy team controlled. In order to do this I wanted part of his armor to count towards his attack damage as well as helping his skills do more damage and such.

The only character that does this (From a passive) is and a champion which has it in his abilities is .

Now, my champions passive converts armor into attack power as well as an innate defense boost that scales with his ultimate. This led to the ability being the exact same as because if I made it too low it'd be useless, and too high it'd be too OP. just happens to have a good medium/balanced passive.

So, when making champion concepts much like that is it ok to use the passive of another champion or should it be different? I know people want uniqueness to the champion concepts and not to be just a ripoff of another champion (Which mine is definitely not because the other skills and abilities are different and unique).

This also makes it hard when creating champions that gain shields, extra AP or AD, armor or magic resist, bleeding and poison, etc. without basing it off of another champion with similar/same abilities to make the champion concept balanced and the best way is to use the numbers that another champion has.

Let me know! Thanks!

11 Comments

GreenLoreJun 30, 20151 votes

Personally I'd say no,it is not ok.

I mean yeah there are some similar abilities in LoL,but they all have at least some difference. And especially newer champs tend to have lots of new and unique abilities.

It is not impossible to do similar stuff though Gnar & Tristana have both passives that increase their range with level,but in gnars case it is more about balancing his 2 forms,the increase in range is just a part of that and honestly his range always is crappy even at level 18.

Why can't you for example make it so that the abilities of your champ scale with armor?I mean your champ sounds a lot like a tank,why would he even need that much auto-attack damage?

Nikushimi ZeroJun 30, 20151 votes

He's more of a tank/bruiser. It also wouldn't be that much of a boost to his AD since it is 25% of his armor converted into bonus attack damage, but since people say not to copy Rammus's passive (Which is converting 25% of his armor into bonus attack damage) then I'm not entirely sure how to do it. I might have a way though.

I wanted to have something where a percentage of his armor was converted into his attack damage. Rammus just had that exact kind of passive. I wanted to do 50% of his Armor as bonus attack damage, but people might think that too OP. The next step was 25% armor converted into bonus attack damage.....then I saw Rammus had the EXACT passive. Only difference is my guy gains bonus armor as well at base and per ultimate rank. Not entirely sure that makes much of a difference.

Anyways, thanks for the feedback!

ModThe DjinnJun 30, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nikushimi Zero,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=sHxyNFdk,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-06-30T07:06:00.711+0000)So, when making champion concepts much like that is it ok to use the passive of another champion or should it be different? I know people want uniqueness to the champion concepts and not to be just a ripoff of another champion (Which mine is definitely not because the other skills and abilities are different and unique).

I would hesitate to put an exact copy of a skill on a champion, but similar skills are more than acceptable.

For example, pre-rework Ryze, Patheon, Veigar, and Annie all have/had a "click on a target to deal damage and nothing else" spell on their Q. The cooldown and extra effects of those abilities vary, but in more subtle ways than the raw effect of the skill itself. A number of characters have "+X% Attack Speed," but the specifies usually vary slightly to keep the abilities distinct.

So I'd avoid taking Rammus's passive directly. Ability damage scaling on Armor is fine, an ability that gives AD based on Armor would be fine, and an Ultimate Passive that converts an increasing % of Armor into AD might be fine (and might be a nice power spike at level 6), but I'd strongly avoid just lifting Rammus's passive completely without VERY good reason.

Nikushimi ZeroJun 30, 20151 votes

Well, the only exactness is that 25% of his armor is converted into bonus attack damage. I was going to go 50% but that seemed like too much. So I dropped it to 25% and gave him bonus armor at base and per ultimate rank.

How would you make a passive that converts armor into attack damage without taking rammus's passive? I think I have an idea, but not too sure. I'd love to hear!

My only reason to taking Rammus's passive is that it is balanced. 50% armor would be too much, 30-40% might also be too much. Anything below 25% would be too low. The passive in its current state is this: "25% of his armor is converted into attack power as well as 5/10/15/20 increased armor rating."

That's what my passive currently is. His skill set is centered on very close quarters and "repelling" the enemy and controlling them. Anyways, I appreciate the feedback!

ModThe DjinnJun 30, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nikushimi Zero,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=sHxyNFdk,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-06-30T19:13:09.271+0000)

Well, the only exactness is that 25% of his armor is converted into bonus attack damage. I was going to go 50% but that seemed like too much. So I dropped it to 25% and gave him bonus armor at base and per ultimate rank.

How would you make a passive that converts armor into attack damage without taking rammus's passive? I think I have an idea, but not too sure. I'd love to hear!

My only reason to taking Rammus's passive is that it is balanced. 50% armor would be too much, 30-40% might also be too much. Anything below 25% would be too low. The passive in its current state is this: "25% of his armor is converted into attack power as well as 5/10/15/20 increased armor rating."

That's what my passive currently is. His skill set is centered on very close quarters and "repelling" the enemy and controlling them. Anyways, I appreciate the feedback!

I'd probably need to see more of the kit: currently that passive is just Rammus's + extra armor, which makes me a little wary. What the rest of the kit is might be important for balance estimates.

As for alternatives to that passive...

--- Grant X% of Armor to Attack Damage for Y seconds (or for Y attacks within Z seconds, which may be easier to balance) after using an ability, or a greater X% of Armor to Attack Damage for the next attack.

--- Grant X% of Armor to Attack Damage every Y seconds. Possibly reduced cooldown upon being hit with an attack, or upon using an ability.

Nikushimi ZeroJun 30, 20151 votes

Tomorrow will be when I release him. I've worked for about 2-3 days on him and I want him released tomorrow due to possibly entering him in next months champion contest. In which case he has to be released in the month that he is entering for.

I did change the passive though to something permanent rather than just for a few seconds. Every 15 armor he gains 5 attack damage. I rounded this out to be an extra 167 with 500 Armor. That is if they get up to 500 armor. Which doesn't make it too OP nor too weak. I was going to do every 20 he gains 5, but that might be too weak.

I can give a preview of my champion concept though. Officially though he will be released tomorrow with pictures, icons for abilities (Rough icons. Couldn't find more fitting ones), and items.

Q: Removes cc effects upon activation and for a very short time is immune to them as well as taking reduced damage per rank from abilities and attacks. Enemies extremely close (Slightly outside of attack range) are knocked back and damaged.

W: Imbues nearby minions and allies for a short duration (Minions 5s, champions 3s) with improved stats. Medium-long cooldown.

E: Short dash with a pull mechanic followed by a knockback attack.

R: Increases his defenses (Magic and armor) for a medium duration (10s) and compels enemy within a medium radius (Centered on him) to fight him for a short duration (3s) afterwhich they are slowed. Long cooldown high cost. Champions have a potential to be compelled twice.

That's the basis of my kit. The damage on E and Q have armor and AD bonuses to them. Q's damage is very low while E is his main form of attack. His basis is to control the enemies, keeping the line clear, and helping allies while increasing his defenses. Ranged champions and mages are difficult for him to fight, but melee champions beware.

ModThe DjinnJun 30, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nikushimi Zero,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=sHxyNFdk,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2015-06-30T20:18:42.966+0000)That's the basis of my kit. The damage on E and Q have armor and AD bonuses to them.

I'd watch out for that. You're already double-dipping Defense-to-Offense with bonus AD based on Armor. Having abilities have BOTH ratios allows him to triple-dip: Defense-to-Offense, with ability damage scaling on both Defense AND Offense. So that 33% Armor-to-AD conversion not only gives him 50 AD for having 150 Armor, but also converts that Armor into damage AGAIN through his ratios.

Your numbers will need to be tuned very carefully.

Nikushimi ZeroJun 30, 20151 votes

Well, the highest percentage armor gives is on the Q with 20% armor and 50% AD. Though with the Q they have to be REALLY close to get hit. As stated, slightly outside of attack range. A radius of 400 units centered on him. Not too big a radius. Think the radius of Ravenous Cleavers active. I could also shorten the range to be more of Malphites E range as well.

His E has 60% AD and 10% Armor. As stated this is his biggest and primary damage ability as only his Q does damage besides this one, and Q is harder to hit with. The cooldowns is what will make it work or not.

Indeed, players could go for items that increased AD and Defense, but they'd also gain less from the defense then since it would be 5 for every 15-20 armor. The bonuses from armor wouldn't be noticeable going the AD item routes.

I could of course tweak them as well, but so far I think with the base damage (Neither of which go over 200 at max rank) should be acceptable. That, of course, is just my opinion.

It was something that worried me when making it because people would go "Well, if they put into AD and Armor then they could potentially make his attacks extremely OP."

But with the very low Armor% scaling in the abilities and the relatively medium to low AD scaling with medium base damages I wouldn't think it would be too OP, but not sure. I am still slightly tweaking things.

GreenLoreJun 30, 20151 votes

though I'd say it is a bit more difficult when it comes to passives,since well,its just the passive effect that could be different. In the case of the champs that you mentioned there are many variables that can be changed,like cooldown,scaling,range and base damage.

ModThe DjinnJun 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

though I'd say it is a bit more difficult when it comes to passives,since well,its just the passive effect that could be different. In the case of the champs that you mentioned there are many variables that can be changed,like cooldown,scaling,range and base damage.

Passive effects can have variables as well:

Greater % of Armor-to-Damage conversion, but designed to not have 100% up-time comes to mind immediately. It gets the same fantasy across (of defense providing offense) in a mechanically different way.

But yes, you're correct: it's a little trickier with passives.

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