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Concept and Creation Questions I'd like to ask of the community?

Nikushimi Zero·4/22/2016, 6:43:59 PM·16 votes·1,495 views

Hey there! I pose this thread here because it's about Concepts and Creations. Skip to QUESTIONS if you don't want to read what lead me to these questions.

I post this thread because recently, and not so recently, I have been seeing a lot of people not exactly hate, but not like when champion concepts are similar to other champions already in game.

For example I'll use one of my recent concepts: Isagi, the Desolate Blade. The link provided in case you're curious. You've no obligation to actually click.

I received a lot of feedback, and have heard a few people say how close she is to Irelia lore wise in that she comes back from supposedly being "dead". Then also a recent judge on a CCOS commented on how she goes into a prominent position in the Ionian military like Yi and Irelia. They also commented on how she is like Yi and closely ties to him. Well, first, that was the point. She IS from his village after all and he WAS her master for a short time before she left the school he taught at.

Anyways, I see this a lot lately. When things are close to other champions in any way people see it as something bad, but then there are champions out there which have similar, yet different abilities in game right now as well as lores that connect.

Another champion of mine: Valen, the Displaced Professional. Link provided in case you're curious. You've no obligation to actually click.

Valen was stated as being too similar to TF (Twisted Fate), but I did not see what they meant until people said it was the hat and trench coat. Which then it made sense. In a similar appearance I can see why he looks like TF, but he is also completely different from TF, and yet there were a few who didn't like this even though it was not an intentional similarity.

Another example I see often on a LOT of champion concepts, mine and others, is that of abilities. For example. Skillshots. Whenever there is an archer and they have a long ranged skillshot they get compared to Varus. Not anything wrong with that, but then they get completely dismissed because they say that their long range is the same as Varus's, but sometimes added effects like let's say an explosion on impact.

These people usually say "The Explosive Shot is similar to Varus's Q, except it explodes. So there is nothing unique about that." Except the Explosion is the unique aspect. Maybe it hits on first enemy then people say "This is like Jinx's W except that it does splash damage. Not unique."

It gets to the point where there are so many abilities it is hard NOT to have something similar, and yet different. Even in league there are abilities like that. Take Amumu and Galio. Both have AoE ults that lock down enemies. The difference is one stuns and the other taunts. Yet both are similar size and purpose. Yet just that ONE difference makes them unique, and yet in concepts it doesn't? If I were to make an ultimate which is a AoE centered on the champion, but let's say charms surrounding enemies....would that be unique or not? I'd have a feeling people might consider it unique, but then say that it is just a combination of Ahri's charm and Galio or amumu's AoE.

Another thing I see a lot is weapons. I created: Geiravor, the Frozen Spear of Freljord. Link provided in case you're curious. You've no obligation to actually click.

She uses a Spear and Shield in Valkyrie style, and is all but modeled after them and a nord warrior. However, people said that she is too close to Pantheon or that there were already enough spear champions. I only know of three. Nidalee, Pantheon, and Xin Zhao. Kalista could be said to have a spear, but she has more of a javelin and Fizz has a trident. Even Nidalee could be said to have a javelin since she is throwing it. My champion had a unique look to her spear and shield, but was practically dismissed because she uses them.

I'd also like to add that another champion concept of mine: Ilidon, the First Demon and Calis, the Tactician. Links provided if you're curious. You've no obligation to actually click.

These two champions seemed to have gotten flak because Ilidon's name was close to a Warcraft characters name and was also a demon though I had no idea of him at the time and there is literally no similarity besides the name and them being demons. Calis got flak because he has a cane and is a tactician like Swain. Yet they bear no other similarities at all.

QUESTIONS! Now, here are the questions I wanted to ask after giving some context.

  1. Are people ok with similar lores as long as there is enough reason for it?

  2. Is it ok to have a lore similar to another champion if you don't know that another champion had that lore?

  3. Are people ok with similar abilities as long as they have their own unique effect and purpose?

  4. When does it get to be "not ok" and "not unique" to have an ability similar, and yet different to another champion?

  5. When is it ok to have similar weapons to other champions?

  6. Does every champion concept need to be exclusively unique and come up with completely new ideas with absolutely no influences?

  7. Is it ok to have names that are similar or the same as others when you don't know about them or even because you like the name?

  8. Is it ok to have another profession champion as another when they are completely different?

I ask these questions because it is hard to find unique abilities without stepping over a few similarities because of how many champion concepts there are as well as champions in league itself.

I also ask these questions so that maybe those who are designing champion concepts can see what the community thinks about all of this and can then make champion concepts that they like as well as fit the expectations of the community. Possibly even helping others in the creation process.

I also ask this because I have a concept I'm hesitant to release because I fear people will compare him to Galio and Ryze due to him being a defensive/tanky mage character. However, this thread is not for me alone. It's for everyone to get a feel for what the community as a whole thinks on these issues.

Thank you for your time. Feel free to converse and talk to me about these questions. Thank you!

30 Comments

Lonely Flame4/23/2016, 6:57:05 AM4 votes

Gday mate. I'll try to answer these as best I can as well as provide some advice where possible. I've studied/am studying character concepts and designs for 3D animation, so anything I pass on comes from people with decades worth of skills under their belts. While the lessons may not have expressly been for something like League of Legends, the points still remain valid and at the very least I can translate what is relevant over to the context of League.

[{quoted}](name=Nikushimi Zero,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=EuJ9jPGd,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-04-22T18:43:59.253+0000)

  1. Are people ok with similar lores as long as there is enough reason for it?

A characters background is incredibly important. The more personal and unique a background can be, the more interesting a character you can build. Sure not everyone lives an interesting life, but that doesn't mean they can't have something to make them stand out. That said, in the context of League I can kind of see why this can become hard after a while. How many interesting ways can you write a backstory for a burly soldier in the military? Or a skilled martial artiest/weapons user? The answer is...you can't really. Eventually there will be overlaps. I mean, look at Garen and Darius. Their lores basically sound the same, except ones good and ones evil. But these champs are quite old by League standards (Darius came out nearly 4 years ago at this point) and their lores are very dated.

When you compare them to revamped stories of Pantheon, Leona, Diana, Sol and Taric, you see how you can interweave a story across multiple champs. Or just even some of the new champs in general. Look at how Jhin was added into Ionian lore. Look at how Illaoi was added to Bildgewater. Ekko to Zaun/Piltover. It's subtle. There are ties to those places and interactions with characters, but the backstories are theirs, not the people they know.

The question I would pose is "Why are you knowingly making a lore similar to another champs instead of making one unique to the champion?"

  1. Is it ok to have a lore similar to another champion if you don't know that another champion had that lore?

There's a good book if you ever want to get into story telling called "The Hero with a Thousand Faces". The basic premise is that every hero is the same, and goes on the same journey. No new stories can be told. But it's how you tell this story that's important. What aspect of the heroes journey to you focus on? Their rise? Their quest? Their end? Did they succeed? Did they fail? If you break down almost any champion to their core elements, they're all kinda similar.

If you didn't know you were making a lore similar to another champion, then hey no harm, no foul. But that doesn't mean your new lore gets to stay. It means you take it back to the drawing board and come up with something new. If you make an awesome new champ, and find out his lore is basically Braum's despite never reading or know Braum's lore, it's an honest coincidence, but that doesn't mean your champion can stay the same. It's hard I know, and trust me I've dealt with it, but you should look at it as more of a chance for improvement. Rather than accidentally making something that people can call a knock off of something else, you have the chance to change it into something new.

  1. Are people ok with similar abilities as long as they have their own unique effect and purpose?

It depends on the level of similarity. Riot has made a hard push with the last few champs to try and create kits that are almost entirely unique. This is why when Jhin was announced, a lot of people where angry with his kit because he didn't really offer anything 'new'. The teasers of Garen, Zed, Sona and Vi seemed like there was going to be some sort of crowd control ADC. But there wasn't. Sure he has a root, but people were expecting grander things. There was no big flashy mechanic like we had seen with Illaoi, Kindred, Tahm, Ekko and Bard.

But his kit is insanely thematic to his character (every ability has to do with the number 4), they combo with each other well and in ways that other champs don't have, and in the end feels like he's his own character. That's one of the reasons I feel people came around to him, at least the second half.

Bringing it back to the question, I think most people are completely fine with similar abilities. There's only so many new things you can load onto one new idea. It's just a case of making them work for the champion. As long as there is something to make the character feel different in some way.

  1. When does it get to be "not ok" and "not unique" to have an ability similar, and yet different to another champion?

Going back to what I was saying in 3, again it depends on the level of similarity. I like to use "it's like X, but Y". Depending on how good the answer to Y is should give you an idea. For example "Lux's Q is like Morgana's Q, but Lux can root 2 people instead of 1, lasts a little less and does a little less damage". See how these too seem fairly similar? Mechanics-wise they're not too different, and after that it's just stat changes.

Compared to say "Gnar's Q is like Sivir's Q, except Gnar's also a applies a slow and doesn't return to him. Instead it travels back in a fixed direction and if he catches it, it reduced the cooldown on the ability". See how these are basically the same, but that that little extra bit of not coming straight back makes it that much different.

  1. When is it ok to have similar weapons to other champions?

Of course. But my advice would be to try and think of a way to fight with unconventional weapons. Again look at the last few champs. Sol uses stars. Illaoi uses tentacles, Kindred uses a bow, but also uses a spiritual wolf, Tahm uses his tongue, Ekko uses a weird bat and gadgets. A great quote to consider for this is "the weapon is an extension of the body", or in this case the character. Why do they fight with that weapon? What relation do they have with it? It shouldn't be enough to go "he's a soilder in the military, he fights with a sword". Why

  1. Does every champion concept need to be exclusively unique and come up with completely new ideas with absolutely no influences?

Nope. Concepts can link together and share similarities things if there is a good reason for it. A nice example of this is Nasus and Renekon. Both are demi-god brothers, and as a result, both of their ultimates involve them growing in size and dealing an AoE for a set period of time. Miss Fortune and Gangplank are both pirates, and use flintlock pistols as part of their kits.

As long as it helps build the character, it is fine to share concepts as long as that champion doesn't end up being a variation of someone else.

  1. Is it ok to have names that are similar or the same as others when you don't know about them or even because you like the name?

In keeping with League, in this case you want a name to be as original as possible. Reason being is you don't want potential confusion about who is being discussed, especially during a game. Just as an example, let's say Riot added "Niv Mizzet" . If he's on a team with an Anivia and I called "niv missing" am I referring to Niv Mizzet or Anivia? Again this is just an example, but I use it because currently in League I can't think of a circumstance when this occurs.

Even outside the context of League, typically you don't want characters names to double up unless there is a specific reason eg intentionally causing confusion.

  1. Is it ok to have another profession champion as another when they are completely different?

Depends on the profession. This was a topic of discussion I had with someone else recently and did my best to try and explain it to them. Specifically, they had created a champion who was a "Grim Reaper". The reason people didn't like this was because we already have a character who is the embodiment of death (Kindred), and so it doesn't make sense to have two interpretations of death.

Scientist? Completely fine, because it makes sense for there to be multiple scientists. Ninjas? Also completely fine because anybody can potentially train to be a ninja.

That said, try not to encroach too much on specific designs. Look at what makes a character iconic, whether it be a part of their kit or theme, then make sure your character doesn't copy that. This is why a lot of people mistook Tahm for being a Void monster when he was first teased, as both are related to consumption of things. Sure, they are distinctly different in their approached to the topic, but it still causes confusion.


Just as a closing comment, when you design a character, you will go through a LOT of refinement. You need to be prepared to let go of your ideas to allow them to turn into something better. When you look up something like Ziggs and see that originally he was a human called "Ivan the Mad Bomber", or Braum was originally a female called "CeeCee, the Hextech Engineer" and from Piltover, you see how much an idea has changed.

There is one particular user on the forums who spams a lot of champions. From time to time, admittedly there is potential for good concepts to grow. Unfortunately, they typically do not change their ideas much from what they start with. This is what leads to poor character design, and what Riot themselves were guilty of in their early days and just cleaning up now. Think about how much effort has gone into making the ADC's feel different in the Marksman update, the 4 champions in the Juggernaut update, and the new one's coming out in the Mage update. Look at how much effort has gone into redoing the old lores on champions. It's because for a few years, Riot created champs, but didn't **develop** them.

Anyway I hoped that helped in some way. If you have anything else you would like to ask feel free. Good luck with your future designs, and hope that what I've said can give you some direction.
ShatteredSkys4/23/2016, 3:36:32 AM3 votes

Hey! ^_^ Seeing as I'm the judge who gave you that feedback I'll try and help answer these questions.

You'd better have a good reason.

I think I should explain my Isagi and Irelia point. I was fine with Isagi coming back to life through some mysterious power, I thought it was little similar but with a little bit of change it could've differentiated it enough. My problem was that the rest of the lore reads like Irelia's too, it isn't just the origin but there overall goals. Both also wanted to protect Ionia and were appointed high military positions by the those of the Placidium, Irelia is appointed to high guard after her stand and Isagi after slaughtering an invading noxian force, both came to fame for similar reasons for coming back to life and driving off Noxians. If you read their lore side by side it's all very similar(sort of, Isagi's goes more into detail while Irelia's is fairly bland.)

I would say if you're trying to write lore about League you should have a basic understanding on everyone's story. I HIGHLY recommend you read a few of the lores, not only becasue it provides you with a better understanding of the world your stories are going to be taking place but also what better place to learn lore besides the actual lore itself? Especially the new long lores like Fiora and GP which are in my opinion really good pieces of lore.

I really don't like the general concept and creations view on similar mechanics being bad. There's nothing wrong with a champion having a similar ability as long as they don't PLAY the same. Let me give you an example: Morgana and Lux on paper have very similar kits. Both have shields, a snare, an AOE W, and a giant AOE ult. But becasue of the slight differences in their skills Lux is a burst mage with utility while Morg is a heavy damage utility mage. As long as your champion plays like no other I feel that it's fine, hat's why I graded Isagi so highly during my review.

i think I answered this in point 3.

As long as it's SIMILAR not the SAME. For an example Master Yi and Yasou both have katanas, but they're different Yasou's is long and thin while yi's is mid length and thicker. i wouldn't put this much emphasis on this, it's good to not have the same weapon as someone else but it isn't something that'll ruin a concept.

Hell no. There's nothing wrong with being influenced by some outside source. That's how a lot of creators get their ideas heck everything single concept I do is influenced by something I was thinking about.

Honestly there are 300 something abilities in the game right now, some of them are going to overlap without resorting to some funky vocab. Don't worry about it too much, just don't have too many similar names and it's not something that ruins a concept.

Yes, it's fine. As long as they're not the exactly the same. Like I wouldn't be interested in another shadow ninja becasue we have Zed but if you brought a fire one that would be cool.

Also it's perfectly fine to use images to represent you champ concept.

Also another piece of advice, take feedback with a bit of salt. NOBODY on this forum knows how to design champions, none of us are on the design team of riot games nobody actually knows the optimal way to make a champion. Neither do the judges of the CCOS(hence the scores ranging from 1-20). We're all just using what knowledge we have to do it to the best of our ability. So if you get feedback that sounds iffy or focuses on a petty thing like names or images ignore it.

In my opinion in term of champion design you're a step above the rest. Isagi shows that you can create champions with unique playstyle and actually looked pretty fun to play. I liked the idea of ulting than pushing someone out of it and pulling them back again. Your lore's biggest issue was that it was too similar to Irelia's aside from that it was fairly decent though could use more detail but I'm just a lore geek so it's probably fine. And honestly I was really surprised that Isagi was not top 5 this CCOS( In my opinion Theogen was an average concept that didn't flow with itself at best and Maha while she had good idea behind didn't hit the mark)

I hope this advive helps you out with your next concept, i look forward to competing with you during the next CCOS.

P.S. Also could you do me a favor? I have the rough copy of my next concept done in 1/2 days and I really want to get some feedback on it. Will you take a look over it and tell me what you think? Thanks!

Elphrihaim4/23/2016, 8:00:58 AM2 votes

Now, here are the questions I wanted to ask after giving some context.

Your context is a bit excessive, just so you know--

You could significantly shorten its length without damaging the impact of the context.

(reading some other posts you just seem to be a fellow wall-of-text-person, though.)

\1. Are people ok with similar lores as long as there is enough reason for it?

I think the answer to this is so highly variable as to be unanswerable.

Personally everything depends on writing quality. If you write a crap story well I'd still finish reading it.

If you write an excellent story badly I'd probably also finish reading it...

But if you write a story that's already told (and that I've read) and it isn't excellent, I'd put it down by failing to see the value in reading it.

\2. Is it ok to have a lore similar to another champion if you don't know that another champion had that lore?

"Ignorance is no excuse for not knowing the law" :V

\3. Are people ok with similar abilities as long as they have their own unique effect and purpose?

You can't say no to this question without pointing out that Riot does this themselves

[Insert pass-through skillshot] is like [insert pass-through skillshot], except [differences].

(examples of pass-through linear skillshots: Varus' Piercing Arrow, Zed's Razor Shuriken, Ezreal's Essence Flux, Irelia's Transcendant Blades, Jarvan IV's Dragon Strike, Kog'Maw's Void Ooze, Nocturne's Dusk Trail, Shyvana's Flame Breath,

\4. When does it get to be "not ok" and "not unique" to have an ability similar, and yet different to another champion?

When there is no unique play to be achieved from the ability but something that would be unique is accessible in its place and fulfills a semi-similar role in other use cases.

That made no sense, I realize.

I'll make a separate post explaining this one because it requires a bit of leadin and walling.

\5. When is it ok to have similar weapons to other champions?

100% of the time, as long as it is used in a completely different fashion or capitalizes on the weapon's basic concept in a different way

(example: Fiddlesticks uses a scythe, but there is plenty of room for a scythe-wielding champion)

\6. Does every champion concept need to be exclusively unique and come up with completely new ideas with absolutely no influences?

Unique yes. No influences, of course not.

\7. Is it ok to have names that are similar or the same as others when you don't know about them or even because you like the name?

I can't see how one can say no to this in good conscience.

\8. Is it ok to have another profession champion as another when they are completely different?

I do not understand the question being asked.

Reading the thread informs me that my answer to this should be "yeah".

ModThe Djinn4/24/2016, 4:11:41 PM2 votes

It's great to see in-depth and productive conversations on this forum. I love threads like this, so I guess I should contribute. :P

A bit about me, so you get some idea of where I'm coming from: I'm a self-taught amateur game designer with 10+ years of design experience with board games and pen & paper RPGs, and I spend a lot of time focusing on the unification of gameplay fantasty with gameplay mechanics. I've been playing League since Pre-Season I (started right at the Xin Zhao release...-shudders), and have actually had several interviews with Riot for a game design position (cue Schwarzenegger-style "I'll be back!"). I'm no industry veteran by a long shot (nor can I speak for Riot, save what I have come to suspect based on my conversations with them and the design posts they've written over the years), but I'm still a fairly competent designer -- so these are my thoughts coming from that background.

[{quoted}](name=Nikushimi Zero,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=EuJ9jPGd,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-04-22T18:43:59.253+0000)

  1. Are people ok with similar lore as long as there is enough reason for it?

  2. When is it ok to have similar weapons to other champions?

  3. Is it ok to have another profession champion as another when they are completely different?

These questions all fall into the category I'll call "Character Fantasy." There's no real "right" or "wrong" answer here, so I apologize in advance for the generalization.

I'd say a good rule of thumb is to check HOW similar your lore / weapon / profession is to an existing champion. This is best shown with an example: let's look at Xin Zhao. Xin Zhao uses a spear-like weapon -- other champions in a similar situation are Pantheon, Fizz, Nidalee, Kalista, and Jarvan IV. All of these, however, play and feel very different. So far so good.

Now let's imagine we're adding another spear-user to the ranks of League. If I add a durable, front-line diving fighter with a spear, there will be obvious parallels to Xin Zhao and Jarvan IV (and slightly Pantheon), and if that character happens to scale well with attack speed and have decent single-target damage it MAY start to feel like another Xin Zhao unless they play VERY differently. That wouldn't be the greatest of ideas.

A skirmishing light fighter with mid-level range and high mobility though? That feels closer to Yasuo than any of the the spear users, and if armed with a spear wouldn't feel like anything currently in League weapon-wise.

The same sort of thing applies to professions: Viktor, Jayce, Ekko, Heimerdinger, Rumble, Singed are all scientists / alchemists of one sort or another...or, in Jayce's case, close enough to count. Another precocious teenage prodigy (whether scientist or not) would step on Ekko's niche, but that doesn't mean the idea of a scientist is anathema at this point.

Ultimately, it's less about the champion's specific aspects and more about the champion's FANTASY. You don't want to step on another champion's character fantasy too heavily. Ekko is the precocious teenage prodigy. Draven is the merciless showman. Jinx is the insane chaos-bringer. Jhin is the calm, deadly gunman. If you have a Marksman who sows more chaos than Jinx, you've got a problem. If you have a young inventor competing with Ekko, you may have an issue. Lore should make a character unique, not step on toes -- note that this DOESN'T mean stories can't be similar though. Alistar and Xin Zhao were both put through the same gladiatorial gauntlet. Taric, Yasuo, and Riven are all exiles from their homelands. Irelia, Sion, and Kalista are all effectively revenants brought back from the dead to keep fighting for a cause. Further, smaller aspects can contribute: another elderly tactician with a cane steps on Swain's toes. Another shot-gun wielding close range Marksman WILL draw Graves parallels unless you take big design steps to make it clearly distinct.

Additionally, I think League lore is at its weakest when it relies too heavily on similarity. This shows up most commonly in things like Wukong's lore: he's Yi's apprentice, and doesn't have much of a story of his own. He's defined not by who HE is as a champion, but by who he associates with. Take Yi away and Wukong doesn't have much in the way of a character (in my opinion -- others may vary).

So similarity is okay, definitely. Hero stories tend to have recurring themes. But when events or character interactions or character visuals or character identity are too close you begin to run into major issues.

  1. Is it ok to have a lore similar to another champion if you don't know that another champion had that lore?

  2. Is it ok to have names that are similar or the same as others when you don't know about them or even because you like the name?

When designing for fun? Absolutely. When designing as a serious exercise? I'd avoid it, because it implies that you haven't researched your world well enough (in the first example), or are not willing to change and adapt your concept (in the second example). Designers should always know the world they're working in, and should ALWAYS be ready to change, adapt, or even scrap their concepts. Knowing when to kill your own design is actually a skill that a designer really needs to have, difficult though it can be to admit (and do, for that matter).

In your earlier example, Illidon the demon is WAY too similar to Illidan the Warcraft villain. Illidon might be an acceptable name for something else, but the parallels are obvious (even if unintentional) and the encroachment on Warcraft's fantasy (see my thoughts on Lore previously) is very high. Better to adapt the name to something different, especially since that's actually one of the easiest aspects of a character to change prior to launch.

  1. Does every champion concept need to be exclusively unique and come up with completely new ideas with absolutely no influences?
  2. When does it get to be "not ok" and "not unique" to have an ability similar, and yet different to another champion?
  3. Are people ok with similar abilities as long as they have their own unique effect and purpose?

These questions are much more gameplay / mechanic associated, although there's obviously a connection between fantasy and gameplay. The first one is easy: a champion never needs to be exclusively unique and free of influences, because that sort of design is entirely impossible. No designer can ever break away from past influences: anyone who tells you they can is lying through their teeth, or suffering from total amnesia.

The second and third are a little more complex: like the Lore questions earlier, the answer is "it varies." Yeah, I know...ambiguity is awful. :P

Abilities and mechanical design are about both enforcing a fantasy and creating distinct gameplay (and balance, but that's another matter). The latter is done in League by creating "unique gameplay output," as I've seen Riot call it. As long as your champion has some unique aspects within their class of champions, they've got something distinct about them: Xin Zhao's ability to isolate a target, Vi's strong diving power, J4's entrapment, Aatrox's incredible sustain, Jax's powerful mixed damage and ability to evade auto-attacks, and Pantheon's insane burst are strong examples among Diving Fighters, for example. Although all of these champions feature a gapcloser, some form of CC, and auto-attacking incentives, they all play fairly different due to their different strengths.

Even among something very simple like an auto-attack reset we see variance: Nasus stacks up. Shyvana synergizes with on-hit items. Wukong shreds armor for dueling. Talon bursts and applies bleed. Garen silences. Illaoi leaps to a target. Jax deals magic damage. I could go more in-depth on why each of these add to the fantasy of the character in question, but the crux of the matter is that these often very similar abilities all add to the feel of the champions as melee-centric auto-attacking characters, and all of them further add to the character's unique playstyle in HOW they function. Similarity in functionality helps people learn the champions in many cases, and help clarity (an enemy tether that you DON'T want to break, for example, would be bad design -- because every other enemy-based tether is beaten by leaving the range).

So the answer is that similar abilities in functionality is perfectly fine. Identical abilities less so, but even VERY similar abilities can be acceptable (see how many characters have an attack speed boost, for instance). The catch is how the kit as a whole functions: an isolating knock-back move is acceptable on a champion. On a gap-closing AD bruiser with burst damage though? That's stealing Xin's identity. But put something that targets an enemy and pushes their allies away from them in a direction on a tank or support and you may have a character with a really unique playstyle, even despite the fact that Xin Zhao, Gragas, and Janna have slightly similar functionality under the right circumstances.

I'm sorry I can't give a clearer answer, but it's really a matter of experience and gut instinct rather than a set of hard and fast rules.

I also ask this because I have a concept I'm hesitant to release because I fear people will compare him to Galio and Ryze due to him being a defensive/tanky mage character.

I think the fear is unwarranted, because people SHOULD compare him to Galio and Ryze. Again, it's about having a unique gameplay output: if someone shows me a Marksman they made I will look at the other Marksman in the game to see how he compares to them and what he brings that is new or unique to the role. I'd compare a tanky/defensive mage to Cho'Gath, Galio, Ryze, Swain, Rumble, Lissandra, Gragas, Kennen, Mordekaiser, and maybe even Malphite and Maokai, because I want to see the similarities and differences he shares to existing champions so I can see what he brings to the game, where he might fall in team compositions, and what he might excel at or be vulnerable to compared to other choices.

Atinizer4/22/2016, 11:59:11 PM1 votes

I'll go through these questions one by one except for the first two because I don't exactly like basing a champion too much on lore and honestly I don't know how to work with it myself.

Are people ok with similar abilities as long as they have their own unique effect and purpose?

It depends on how similar they are, I remember seeing someone who's E was the exact same as Rumble's however it was a mana champion and if you landed both charges of it then it stunned. That is something I would deem too similar or possibly boring. But say TF's Q but shorter range and they come together into a line at the end, that is fun and interesting because while it is similar it has an added mechanic and not just an added effect.

When does it get to be "not ok" and "not unique" to have an ability similar, and yet different to another champion?

If something is the same ability but with different scaling or just one effect that isn't interesting.

When is it ok to have similar weapons to other champions?

From my time as a fan of the show called RWBY, weapons are a BIG deal in designing the personality and what they can do to some extent. The way I see it there is nothing wrong with similar weapons as long as it is unique. Pantheon has a spear? Alright why not give them a Guisarme instead? Sure they are both pole-arms and you stab things with them but the guisarme is still new and exciting in it's own way, it's not just a bland spear. Another example with Swordsmen, sure you could have a scimitar but why not something more exotic like a Shamshir? Instead of a Katana why not have a Nagamaki? There are so many different weapons to choose from and people limit themselves to only what they can think of off the top of their head: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_premodern_combat_weapons

Does every champion concept need to be exclusively unique and come up with completely new ideas with absolutely no influences?

Absolutely not, it's unreasonable to think that. There is nothing new under the sun but you should at least TRY to come up with something new and interesting because other-wise you have a whole ton of bland and boring abilities floating around. Abilities from what I see can range from yawn to Oh that's cool to WAIT WHAT? IS THAT EVEN A THING HOLLY HELL THAT'S COOL! I'd say you don't always have to get that last one though.

Is it ok to have names that are similar or the same as others when you don't know about them or even because you like the name?

Well...if you didn't know, you can't really help that. But if you DID know then I'd advise against it because you don't want people thinking of two different champions, the reason is pretty self-explanatory.

Is it ok to have another profession champion as another when they are completely different?

Okay so then why wouldn't people complain about Vi and Caitlyn both being cops? They both do their themes entirely differently which I can appreciate, so the answer here is just kind of a flat: Yea sure, go for it!

I hope this gives you what you were looking for and now for a utterly shameless plug for one of my concepts, and please note I didn't just make this post to plug my idea that would be a dick move: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/Gnc4BYmE-champion-concept-ahomana-the-living-battery I didn't really get much feed-back on him so positive or negative would both be welcome as always.

FloRaider424/22/2016, 10:13:24 PM1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nikushimi Zero,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=EuJ9jPGd,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-04-22T18:43:59.253+0000)

  1. Are people ok with similar lores as long as there is enough reason for it?

Depends on how similiar they are. Not somebody who focuses on lore, but I dislike when more than one aspect (origin, character and goal) overlapps. Even if they share one of said aspects they are supposed to differentiate from each other as every person is different (even twins grow apart). What do you mean with "enough reason" though ?

  1. Is it ok to have a lore similar to another champion if you don't know that another champion had that lore?

That is kinda hard to judge, but if it is a fairly generic lore you kinda have to expect that it already exists and should add some variety. That said shared specific lores and characteristics can't really be judged as poor writing, as long as it is unique to LoL.

  1. Are people ok with similar abilities as long as they have their own unique effect and purpose?

That depends on who you ask. For me it depends entirely on the kit and how that effect interacts with it: Morgana's Q and Lux Q both snare, but one of them can get much closer thanks to shield, spellvamp and ultimate the other one needs it to start her combo from range. If it has some difference in mechanic and is used differently in the champions playstyle it is a rather well designed ability.

  1. When does it get to be "not ok" and "not unique" to have an ability similar, and yet different to another champion?

Seems to overlapp with 3 When it basically has the same purpose in the kit, would be my answer. If you introduce, say another hook that pulls the enemy completly towards you to set up your combo, you have another blitzcrank, for example.

  1. When is it ok to have similar weapons to other champions?

I would try to avoid that actually. So far LoL champions hardly share weaons apart from magic projectile, but even they vary. It could of course be a weapon in the same group (Olaf has throwing Axes, Draven has spinning Axes, Darius has an Waraxe), but having an identical one doesn't make much sense as those champions are the master of said weapons implying that someone with the same weapon should be weaker.

  1. Does every champion concept need to be exclusively unique and come up with completely new ideas with absolutely no influences?

Riot definetly seems to go towards the direction of making each champions role and niche as unique as possible. That doesn't mean that every single ability needs to be complety new, but that the playstyle varies enough to give each champion a strategic reason to be picked. Influences can't be avoided though and I think it's silly to even try.

  1. Is it ok to have names that are similar or the same as others when you don't know about them or even because you like the name?

If the concept shares name, lore and personality with an existing and well known character you might have a problem. But if you have a good reason for the name (aurelion sol = Golden Sun = starforging dragon or Yorick= dead jester in hamlet that starts a monolouge on mortality= undead gravedigger) I see no problem with using a name (as long as it is unique to LoL).

  1. Is it ok to have another profession champion as another when they are completely different?

Don't really know what you mean by that. If you want to introduce another scientist focusing on transhumanism like Viktor I wouldn't really support the idea, but if it shows a different aspect of the proffesion (shadow ninja / elemental ninja / ninja warrior / classic ninja) it should be fair game.

I hope I helped in shedding some light on my interpretations of those aspects in design philosophy

FloRaider out summoner 31

NissaAnimist4/24/2016, 11:46:46 AM1 votes

I didn't read through all of these comments because well there's a lot here ; - ;

And I'm not gunna answer your questions in the way these other fin people have but in a special way.

Now there is a sort of... fact if you will on stories that is not to well know, and honestly if you think about it long enough you start to understand. What am I talking about? Well there are so many stories and characters out there in the world that there is literally know way that you will almost always come up with the same story/ character that someone else has come up with. Be it any combination of them that you don't know if you have come up with a character like Mario combined with the backstory of someone from Darksouls.

As for weapons, there are so many types and verities that so many people don't know of and the ones that are famous and most use are the ones we think of Sword, Axe, Hammer, Spear, and Staffs. Now tell me how many champs have swords? a lot. Hammers? actually a couple (if you count skins). Spears, like you said a few. And there are Staff? Well depending on how you look at it, its one of the most used.

The point of all of this is, if people are always looking for unique. Its always REALLY hard to find it. And if one day Riot can't come out with a new champ because every time they try to they aren't unique enough well we might see a champ number cap here soon in the future.

So don't let people say "Its like you took X champs ability and throw it on Y champs ability" thats what most champ abilities are? You can't NOT have a long rang skill shot on a RANGED champ. You sure as heck can't have and AoE that just does damage and nothing else (I mean you can but... why??)

And if your story sounds a little to similar its always easy to change things hear and there to make them some what unique, but you'll never be 100% unique just remember "someone thought about it first, how can I make it interesting??"