League needs badass grandma champion.

PookeyTheCat·Nov 19, 2016·17 votes·1,793 views

It feels like league champion pool lacks age diversity. It would be really awesome to have this AD bruiser grandma beating the shit out of Darius with a walking stick at 2.5 attack speed. Well, jk, about the AD part.

But really it would be really cool if had this grand master of dome type of magic.. and she would be an elderly woman. It would add some depth to the game as in.. league lore does mention from time to time that there was some elder X, who taught the champion we have now the basics of something. So maybe RIOT could release a champion that would be just like that.. except he/she didn't have an apprentice.

It all comes down to that while champions do feel unique gameplay wise, it would be great if they would be more unique design wise - having champions all young and all kind of ruins the atmosphere. This is a game in a world of magic with powerful wizards and weird creatures, and yet we have no elder magic user, that pretty much most media related to magic use to create an immersion.

Upvote if you like the idea to give this thread more exposure :)

29 Comments

Bobo113Nov 19, 20167 votes

I don't think it would be a good thing to add an old woman just for the sake of adding an old woman. The process has to be a lot more organic - give a reason both aesthetically and thematically that makes sense. Without a great deal of forethought, the character would be bland, and purely there to fulfill a niche.

I personally think they could do more with Annie's home island; "The Voodoo Lands." Making old woman champs from this area might be fun - be they good or evil. It would be easy to find a way to better explore the dark magic idea without using the overused Shadow Isles or Void tropes.

Osamu TezukaNov 19, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I don't think it would be a good thing to add an old woman just for the sake of adding an old woman. The process has to be a lot more organic - give a reason both aesthetically and thematically that makes sense. Without a great deal of forethought, the character would be bland, and purely there to fulfill a niche.

I personally think they could do more with Annie's home island; "The Voodoo Lands." Making old woman champs from this area might be fun - be they good or evil. It would be easy to fins a way to better explore the dark magic idea without using the overused Shadow Isles or Void tropes.

"The process has to be organic"

There has literally never been an instance in LoL where Riot added in a champion "organically". Literally every single character is just a random shoe-in based off of a list of random ability sets/concept arts that Riot has hanging up on a wall (This is a metaphor, but it could be true for all I know). They pick whatever feels or looks coolest, flesh it out, do a whole thing for them beforehand (such as with this Camille champion's comic), and then release the champion.

Camille is pretty good example of my counterargument to your idea of "organic process" to adding champions. There's no precedent for a cyborg knife-leg woman from Piltover. It's just a cool idea. Same goes for every other champion in the League.

FloRaider42Nov 20, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Osamu Tezuka,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=oWrGHyLT,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-11-19T23:57:39.747+0000)There has literally never been an instance in LoL where Riot added in a champion "organically".

Maybe you understand something completly different under organic than me, but so far every recent champion seemed well crafted and coherent and there is a lot of work and creativity involved in their creation.

Edit: Thanks BOBO113 for taking the time to explain how champions are really made

Bobo113Nov 20, 20162 votes

lol no problem!

It's stunning to me that people don't understand that working on games is still "work" - no matter how enjoyable it is at times. Even for companies much smaller than league, it's not like a champ is just brought forth to completion by a single person, and a team just says "great, we like what we see - let's ship it!" . . .

Bobo113Nov 20, 20164 votes

Take my word on this. . . There is about 10-12 months of development for each of the champs that make it to the light of day. Within those months, about 4 of them are dedicated to champion thematics, character, design, and overall concept, and how all of it is tied together to match kit, lore, feel, and translating the idea in a way that doesn't offend international clients. There is nothing slap-dash about the process - despite the champions being from a seemingly random pipeline of genders, appearances and playstyles.

Many of the kits are introduced by how they may better the dynamic of the game's current style and pace - this includes what kind of cc or counterplay might be necessary to steer the meta. Nothing about their methods are random (even though they may slip up here and there). You grossly undervalue the time, thought, and effort that makes these characters work, and ultimately keep them memorable, unique, and maintain their lasting importance. The image of the character, and what they represent is also taken very seriously - and every champ is more than JUST some "woman with a different weapon this time." Every character has depth - be it in lore, or in design. Most characters in the game are recognizable just by their silhouettes alone, or just by their color palette. That is a feat in-and-of itself.

Every piece of a champion is handcrafted by dozens of highly motivated and creative artists, programmers, sound technicians, etc., etc, - all of whom take great pride and care in their ideas, and work tirelessly to keep their characters in line with rigorous design standards, and within the lore of their own world. With a game with such a massive fanbase, the pressure is gigantic - especially alongside skeptics who fail to grasp the hardships involved these stages of character dev.

Sure, some characters draw from pop culture callbacks or other mythical creatures that people can relate to and recognize, but ultimately, the characters each have their own spark that sets them apart from their worldly origins. "Camille" was likely the result of a great deal of back-and-forth about cohesive narrative, strong readability, excellent gameplay mechanics and overall delivery. Communicating all of these things takes a TREMENDOUS amount of forethought and teamwork.

It is never as simple as "eh, it's a pretty cool thing we made in testing a while back - let's roll with it." League has far too much on its shoulders to pass off their achievements with such nonchalance. Though it may not make sense to the average player, the process is highly "organic."

Osamu TezukaNov 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Take my word on this. . . There is about 10-12 months of development for each of the champs that make it to the light of day. Within those months, about 4 of them are dedicated to champion thematics, character, design, and overall concept, and how all of it is tied together to match kit, lore, feel, and translating the idea in a way that doesn't offend international clients. There is nothing slap-dash about the process - despite the champions being from a seemingly random pipeline of genders, appearances and playstyles.

Many of the kits are introduced by how they may better the dynamic of the game's current style and pace - this includes what kind of cc or counterplay might be necessary to steer the meta. Nothing about their methods are random (even though they may slip up here and there). You grossly undervalue the time, thought, and effort that makes these characters work, and ultimately keep them memorable, unique, and maintain their lasting importance. The image of the character, and what they represent is also taken very seriously - and every champ is more than JUST some "woman with a different weapon this time." Every character has depth - be it in lore, or in design. Most characters in the game are recognizable just by their silhouettes alone, or just by their color palette. That is a feat in-and-of itself.

Every piece of a champion is handcrafted by dozens of highly motivated and creative artists, programmers, sound technicians, etc., etc, - all of whom take great pride and care in their ideas, and work tirelessly to keep their characters in line with rigorous design standards, and within the lore of their own world. With a game with such a massive fanbase, the pressure is gigantic - especially alongside skeptics who fail to grasp the hardships involved these stages of character dev.

Sure, some characters draw from pop culture callbacks or other mythical creatures that people can relate to and recognize, but ultimately, the characters each have their own spark that sets them apart from their worldly origins. "Camille" was likely the result of a great deal of back-and-forth about cohesive narrative, strong readability, excellent gameplay mechanics and overall delivery. Communicating all of these things takes a TREMENDOUS amount of forethought and teamwork.

It is never as simple as "eh, it's a pretty cool thing we made in testing a while back - let's roll with it." League has far too much on its shoulders to pass off their achievements with such nonchalance. Though it may not make sense to the average player, the process is highly "organic."

Okay, maybe I summarized the process wherein a champion is created. What I meant was that they could add in an old lady champion to have an old lady champion and it would still fit perfectly fine. I made my point with the assumption that, literally no matter what champion idea they had (they could add a sentient rabbit ffs), the amount of work that goes into the creation of a champion and just the way that the process works makes it so that any character could fit in the lore and world of League of Legends. Creating a kit, passive, abilities and all, isn't "organic". It's mechanical. They balance it out until it works and then they balance it some more. I never said their methods were random. Making a character recognizable is basic character design, and yeah it's impressive but they do it literally all the time and considering the setting they have to work in, a game with 10 players playing 10 avatars in 2 teams, doing so is easy. The environment is conducive to the creation of unique characters, no matter what. None of their champions could ever be "Random Soldier #2"

Regardless, if they added another swordswoman champion, no matter how it ended up, it'd fit perfectly fine in the League. If they made an old lady, they wouldn't just generate a random idea and throw it in. I never said that they didn't take time creating a champion. Of course they do. I wouldn't bother trying to make fan characters for this game if they didn't. But they could add literally any character archetype and it'd fit in League because of the work they do to make sure they fit and the work they've put into the lore. They could create an "old lady" just to have an old lady, because there's no real precedent set for the type of champions that are and aren't allowed in League of Legends aside from them fitting in the pre-existing lore and not stepping on any other character's theme. There's no precedent set for Camille, a cyborg lady with knife legs. Of course they went and made sure that Camille fit in the lore, but you could essentially boil it down to them adding a cyborg just to have a cyborg. It's obviously more in depth than that.

I hope my point here is clear. I'm not trying to discount the work that Riot puts into creating characters. I'm trying to emphasize the fact that no matter what champion they create, it'd fit into League perfectly fine because of the work they do put in. They'd never just throw in a champion, but they're fully able to create a champion for the sake of having the character archetype in the League.

Bobo113Nov 20, 20162 votes

Food for thought. . . If Tumblr started bitching about the fact that no current characters represent their specifics racial group or sexual orientation (which is already happening - it's Tumblr, of course it is) Riot shouldn't need to appease their every whim. My point is this: League has not just added "a straight, white guy in shorts and a fedora" - just because some douche canoe asked for it on a thread someplace. There would have to be a valid reason why they would fit into the context, have a place in the world, have a unique and interesting addition to the moveset pool, and provide players with an original experience. Adding an archetype for the sake of adding archetypes does NOT work, nor has Riot ever done this. It is purely methodical, and as I stated above, a LOT of work for you to downright discredit.

Also, while release order may not make sense to us, it is because they don't really need to be transparent if they don't have to. Not every champion comes out on time, or in a specific order, but they are tweaked continually to keep up with the times. Aurelion Sol (RIP Ao Shin) has been in development since late 2012. Some of the tail animations and hitboxes were causing headaches, but they were determined to keep the project going for a vast period of time. Azir was also in development long ago as the "Seth" project. Braum was also a massive struggle - since they had to develop a new animation system so he could turn his body while his shield was raised. Yasuo's sword sheathing was also a massive setback for the animation team (for reasons I don't expect you to understand - unless you've ever worked with rigged 3D meshes). Caitlyn was supposed to have Ivern's bush ability, but they didn't have the technology to implement such a script into their build until years later. However, they will never publicly complain about the hardships of the job, since they don't expect their wildly ignorant players to get it.

NONE of these champions were added just because they were a dragon, or a talking tree, or a burly Russian guy. There is a much larger dimension to their characters - a depth that you clearly do not see or appreciate. I'm done here if you are not willing to see what I'm talking about.

Osamu TezukaNov 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Food for thought. . . If Tumblr started bitching about the fact that no current characters represent their specifics racial group or sexual orientation (which is already happening - it's Tumblr, of course it is) Riot shouldn't need to appease their every whim. My point is this: League has not just added "a straight, white guy in shorts and a fedora" - just because some douche canoe asked for it on a thread someplace. There would have to be a valid reason why they would fit into the context, have a place in the world, have a unique and interesting addition to the moveset pool, and provide players with an original experience. Adding an archetype for the sake of adding archetypes does NOT work, nor has Riot ever done this. It is purely methodical, and as I stated above, a LOT of work for you to downright discredit.

Also, while release order may not make sense to us, it is because they don't really need to be transparent if they don't have to. Not every champion comes out on time, or in a specific order, but they are tweaked continually to keep up with the times. Aurelion Sol (RIP Ao Shin) has been in development since late 2012. Some of the tail animations and hitboxes were causing headaches, but they were determined to keep the project going for a vast period of time. Azir was also in development long ago as the "Seth" project. Braum was also a massive struggle - since they had to develop a new animation system so he could turn his body while his shield was raised. Yasuo's sword sheathing was also a massive setback for the animation team (for reasons I don't expect you to understand - unless you've ever worked with rigged 3D meshes). Caitlyn was supposed to have Ivern's bush ability, but they didn't have the technology to implement such a script into their build until years later. However, they will never publicly complain about the hardships of the job, since they don't expect their wildly ignorant players to get it.

NONE of these champions were added just because they were a dragon, or a talking tree, or a burly Russian guy. There is a much larger dimension to their characters - a depth that you clearly do not see or appreciate. I'm done here if you are not willing to see what I'm talking about.

Okay. We're clearly communicating on two different wavelength's here, because everything you're saying is very clearly riffing with me. In my initial comment, I summarized the process in which they make champions which was a bad move on my part.

However, you're not communicating with me here. I'm saying that Riot CAN add an archetype for the sake of adding an archetype and they WOULD make it fit BECAUSE they put in the work to do so. There's nothing about adding an archetype that necessarily suggests that their moveset would be bland and their design wouldn't be unique.When I say this, I mean narrative-wise, as in how they would fit into the lore and setting of League of Legends, because that's what I'm mostly interested in. Also, literally every character fits into an archetype because that's what an archetype is.

Example: All of the ninjas are archetypes of ninjas. That's what an archetype is. They fit into the archetype of ninja.

I'd also argue that the reasons why some of these champions were added are because they were dragons, or talking trees, or burly (maybe not, I thought his accent was some sort of Northern European) Russian guys. It's because of how unique their kits were or how unique their designs were that spurred the process behind their creation. There isn't a single champion in League whose kit could be slapped onto another character and that's because they're archetypes. Sure, they're all unique spins on their respective archetypes, but they still fulfill certain archetypal character roles.

I can also kinda take a guess as to why the Yasuo sword thing was a problem, but I'm not gonna. I understand that the process of animation is difficult, I did some research projects on it in high school because I wanted to get into a career in animation but I kinda fell out of interest but that's not the point. I also... never brought up those technical problems that create setbacks in champion development because that was never the point of the discussion.

Basically, as I said before, Riot could add an old lady archetype (angry old grandma, wise and wizened old sorceress are good examples) for the sake of having one and no matter what direction they took the character in they would fit in seamlessly with the game because of the amount of work they put into making sure their characters do.

JayHog1992Nov 19, 20165 votes

We have Swain and Zilean to be grandfathers of the League, why no grandma?

MelledoneusNov 20, 20164 votes

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/demise/images/a/a0/Warwick_Grandma.jpg/revision/20111025073944

reaperteaserNov 19, 20163 votes

how about a grandma skin? crazy cat lady yoric maby?

Princess MarshNov 20, 20162 votes

Old lady healer tribeswoman Soraka would be a cute skin

PookeyTheCatNov 21, 20161 votes

Brilliant xD

MrFluffyPuffyNov 20, 20163 votes

I think there are cool characters, who as part of their identity are also old ladies, that could be a good fit in League of Legends. I don't think 'League doesn't have one' is a sufficient argument by itself though, for any concept. League doesn't have a harpy for example, a classic monster from myth and other fantasy settings. That doesn't mean we should necessarily make one though. Whether or not a harpy allows us to tell new stories, offer new gameplay, create a different personality, show a distinct visual silhouette etc better than other concepts is what we're interested in. We'll always have more concepts than we'll be able to make, so comparing what an idea lets us do is really important.

As far as old lady goes I think there's a lot that piece of background goes well with. If a character's physically old, but still able to compete with other champions, there's got to be something else impressive about them. That could be a wealth of knowledge and training, or massive willpower and resilience built up over a lifetime. They might move differently to many other champions, much more controlled, precise motions for example, rather than the more flashy speed/strength based combat of others. They'll almost certainly have a pretty different outlook on things from characters who are still pretty early on in their lives, who are still mastering their powers or figuring out their place in the world.

Age by itself though isn't a justification for making a character. It's a means to an end, not the end in and of itself, just like any other character trait. -Meddler (Lead Gameplay Designer)

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/vgnG3WYN-petition-to-have-an-old-lady-champion

PookeyTheCatNov 21, 20161 votes

That's really well said. I hope they create something just like that. It couldn't be phrased better.

FloRaider42Nov 19, 20162 votes

having champions all young and all kind of ruins the atmosphere

How so ? This is a world filled with monsters, eldrich creatures and magical nukes You don't get to grow old in such a world...

We have no elder magic user

Ahem Zilean Swain Ryze

I am all for diverse champions, but like you said she should be unique design wise and not added just cause there wasn't an elderly lady beforehand.

PookeyTheCatNov 19, 20161 votes

I;m aware of tose three... it's just due to shitty english i don't really have a clue how to express it.

Mmm..think of something like Gandalf or ... if you read Synra lore... think of her teacher. And also yeah, you mentioned these three, but they are all male :/ I think grandma would be a great addition to the game. She would have to be analogous of what i wrote before, though.

FloRaider42Nov 19, 20161 votes

Ryze is a elderly sage Zilean is father time Swain is a evil mastermind (think Saruman)

As mentioned above LoL is actually full of old and ancient beings, but since they have so much power they stopped aging.

What is something you can associate with elderly women, that would provide a great theme, make sense in this universe and be fun to play?

Most ideas I see are about elderly witches and although cliche it isn't in Lol yet and has some creative potential: Harvests jungle plants to mix potions, uses vodoo to hurt your champion from far away, controls jungle monsters etc.

Bobo113Nov 20, 20162 votes

I'm actually a little surprised Ivern was male, and not a "mother of nature" or a "Gaia" figure. There are PLENTY of ways to incorporate strong, more mature female characters.

In terms of the witch things, there are a LOT of awesome ways to do this - I am currently doing a witch series of custom champions - voodoo/seamstress, potionmaster/brewmaiden, maitron of fire/unholy rite, etc. There are really cool ways to present dark magic without re-using current styles, like shadow isles or void magic. There is no reason why Annie has to be the only witch from the Voodoo Lands, and I believe that bringing older female characters to this new design frontier might be a great addition to the current pool of champions.

There could also be ways of introducing older women as wielders of Zaunite "techmaturgy." Women of all ages have always been in the forefront of scientific research all over the world - wether or not people realize it. This could be a way for Riot to expand people's opinion on women in science. Currently, the in-game science theme has a very apparent male-oriented stagnation.

Princess MarshNov 20, 20162 votes

tbh if riot made a grandma champ she'd automatically be my main

JedenVojakNov 20, 20162 votes

No one wants to play an old lady.

COBRA C0MM4NDERNov 19, 20161 votes

Riot would make her into a stereotypical witch type, not a nice kind looking grandma.

Teemo's grandmother would be a fine start off point...or perhaps Tristana's (she's be packing a wheelchair/minigun combo)

Osamu TezukaNov 19, 20161 votes

I see this topic come up pretty often and every time I take the opportunity to shamelessly promote a champ concept I made last month, Clyde, The Full Metal Matron.

Basically, she's an old lady in a suit of power armor. She's paralyzed below her waist. The concept isn't perfect, like her passive is just her unique Electricity resource but it doesn't do anything beyond that and she's meant to be a Juggernaut (Illaoi, Darius, etc.) but unlike the other Juggernauts she has no sustain. But if you're interested in an old lady champion, check her out.

And to address your comment about all the champions being young, I'd say most of the champions are pretty old, or at least not as young as you're thinking. The youngest character is maybe Annie, unless there's some magic going on there that we don't know about since her lore hasn't been updated since she's been released, followed by Ekko and/or Taliyah. Most of the champions are pretty old. If anything, there aren't enough young champions in the League, probably because Riot doesn't wanna get flamed by mainstream media for having a game where you can kill children or something.

And... most of the magic users in the game are elderly. People before my comment mentioned it. They forgot Leblanc though. She's supposedly ageless.

PookeyTheCatNov 19, 20161 votes

Didn't see that post. That looks like a badass idea. Upvoted.

Denims Wrath666Nov 19, 20161 votes

Annie but grown up. would be kinda scary.

Bobo113Nov 20, 20161 votes

I have an old woman champ for this month's CCOS. Her name is Marion, The Seamstress of Fate.

Hauling AsheNov 20, 20161 votes

They already used the fall-off-the-wheelchair gimmick with Kled , though.

bad arcade kittyNov 21, 20161 votes

pls

stop with this diversity crap

we already have a feminist amputee cyborg coming, she also looks middle aged too

we don't need any more non-cute strong wimminz who are also pretty by shuriman standards of beauty etc in the foreseeable future pls

DorkunedAurasNov 21, 20161 votes

RekSai Grandma: Check, given birth to numerous generations of Xer'Sai AS: Reasonable, and gets it naturally, is AA based Badass: CHECK I don't see what you're complaining about.