Item Idea: Relentless Hydra

xxxDogmanxxx·Apr 25, 2016·12 votes·1,115 views

http://i.imgur.com/yFhOPRA.png

Relentless Hydra 3500 Gold

+ + + 750 gold

Stats: +35 Damage +50% Attack Speed +10% Cooldown Reduction +100% Base Health Regeneration

UNIQUE Passive -- Cleave: Basic attacks deal [+10 X (total attack speed)] bonus physical damage (on-hit) to your target, and [+20 X (total attack speed)] bonus physical to nearby enemies.

UNIQUE Active -- Crescent: For 3 seconds, basic attacks will instead deal [+40 X (total attack speed)] bonus physical damage to all targets. Additionally, during that duration, your total attack speed and attack speed cap are multiplied by 1.5 (20 second cooldown).

Limitations: Can only be purchased by melee champions.

EDITS Speed multiplier reduced to 1.5 from 2.0 Limitation to melee champions added Added an Item Icon

31 Comments

WoonStruckApr 25, 20164 votes

Make the active only doubles base attack speed. We don't need champions like Yi becoming broken solely due to this item.

I specifically say 'base attack speed' as opposed to 'total' because it would make the users more powerful without completely bypassing an intended weakness of some champions (Darius, Skarner, etc).

Most melees do not invest heavily into attack speed because they cannot keep up with the timer, due to being melee. Because of this, doubling the cap does nothing to anyone besides Yi and maybe Shyv/Skarner (who can actually stick on a target via MS in some cases). But 99.9% Yi.

Doubling their base attack speed causes any other bonus attack speed they get to double in effectiveness, allowing any melee to make use of temporary 2.5 attack speed. This will also discourage Yi from building it, due to him hitting the cap so easily already, but it would still be viable on him due to the scaling.

Other adjustments would have to be made for it to end up balanced, however.

Trust me, 5.0 attackspeed sounds good on paper, but it would never be utilized on melee because they cannot stay in melee range that efficiently. Its what you'd call 'paper DPS' as opposed to 'practical DPS'.

xxxDogmanxxxApr 25, 20161 votes

Thank you for the suggestion.

At level 18, MasterYi requires 233.43% bonus AS from items, runes, and masteries to reach 2.5 Attack Speed. With Highlander, he gets 80% bonus AS. With 4% in his masteries and another 13.5% in his quints, that's 97.5% bonus AS without items. That means he needs another 135.93% bonus AS from items to reach 2.5 Attack Speed. Assuming he gets 50% from this item, he'll need another 85.93% bonus AS to get 2.5 Attack Speed. That's two more items at the very least. Dedicating 3 slots for attack speed items leaves MasterYi very squishy, in exchange for dealing massive damage.

The trade-off is there, but I acknowledge that it might not be enough of a trade off and the damage needs to be toned down for the sake of MasterYi and similar champions. I do not want to modify just base attack speed, since I do desire that the active give a very noticeable power spike comparable to the burst damage from the other Hydras for champions that can synergize well with the item. Instead, I have lowered the multiplier from double to 1.5

ModThe DjinnApr 25, 20161 votes

Should change that to melee only, otherwise we'll have issues with Kog'Maw. :P

The item itself seems fine, but I'm concerned about that active component -- a 20 second cooldown for doubling the attack speed and cap is EXTREMELY powerful, especially since a 5.0 attack speed with give 200 bonus damage with that active ability. It was already perhaps too strong with the 100 bonus damage potential from the active.

Nerf that problematic component and you have a very interesting item though. I'm not sure it's unique enough to work though -- I'm having trouble thinking of characters who would especially like this over the other options available to them. Who did you have in mind?

xxxDogmanxxxApr 25, 20161 votes

I put in that only melee champions can buy it. Thanks for the suggestion. The item active is actually based on KogMaw 's W, but with half the duration and a far longer cooldown. I would like to add that it will only do that much if you already have 2.5 attack speed in the first place, which will of course require multiple items/skills. If you only have say... 1.391 attack speed ( Fiora 's attack speed at level 18 with this item, since Fiora is the melee champion with highest natural attack speed at level 18), the active gives 110 damage maximum.

As for champions that would buy this, I was actually envisioning auto-attack reliant champions like XinZhao .

ModThe DjinnApr 25, 20161 votes

{quoted} I would like to add that it will only do that much if you already have 2.5 attack speed in the first place, which will of course require multiple items/skills. If you only have say... 1.391 attack speed ('s attack speed at level 18 with this item, since Fiora is the melee champion with highest natural attack speed at level 18), the active gives 110 damage maximum.

Yep. But it's also not worth it at that point, as you'd lose AD scaling and the higher damage that Ravenous Hydra would add. She's only be getting 13-26 damage from the normal passive.

As for champions that would buy this, I was actually envisioning auto-attack reliant champions like .

The issue is that those champions tend to have solid AD ratios, and thus won't typically get more than 1-w attack speed items, so the AS scaling of this isn't super appealing. It's the burst feature that's nice, but I'm hesitant about taking AD Skirmishers and adding potent AD burst mechanics to them: that sort of terrifying burst potential was one of the reasons Sword of the Divine was removed. It was always either undertuned compared to other options, or super overpowered on characters who could abuse it.

I think this item might find more use if it didn't break the AS cap and worked on ranged characters. Not only does that open up a pool of champions who would love it (Vayne, Kog, Kayle, Kindred, etc, with a max put in place to avoid Kog'Maw abuse), but that's a pool of champions who often tends to build more attack speed. The problem is that Hydra doesn't work in that case.

xxxDogmanxxxApr 25, 20161 votes

I actually want this item to be a situational item. In fact, I want this to be part of the Hydra items, which are all situational and limited for melee's. I fear that opening it up to ranged champions would make it too abusable to too many champions. Ranged ADC's have enough items for them, plus they are inherently safer than melee champions by virtue of their range. Thus, I would prefer that this item stay melee-only.

The speed and cap multiplier has been reduced to 1.5 from 2.0 upon further examination of the damage. This nerfs the maximum possible damage by 43.75%. That seems like a reasonable compromise.

ModThe DjinnApr 25, 20161 votes

{quoted} I actually want this item to be a situational item. In fact, I want this to be part of the Hydra items, which are all situational and limited for melee's. I fear that opening it up to ranged champions would make it too abusable to too many champions. Ranged ADC's have enough items for them, plus they are inherently safer than melee champions by virtue of their range. Thus, I would prefer that this item stay melee-only.

Hm. The reason for my suggestion was that most auto-attack melee characters in the game either don't scale super well on just attack speed, or build significantly more tank: Master Yi is about the only exception, as every other fast attacker either builds rather tanky (Warwick, Xin Zhao, Jax, Aatrox) or prefers critical strike damage builds (Tryndamere, Yasuo). Since you really have to double or triple up on attack speed items to make this item worth it I think it pales in comparison to Ravenous Hydra in almost every situation: both end up dealing high damage, but Ravenous Hydra offers high initial burst, better AD scaling (and most of those champions have good AD ratios), and better sustain. I'm not sure there's anyone it's really a choice on other than MAYBE Master Yi.

The speed and cap multiplier has been reduced to 1.5 from 2.0 upon further examination of the damage. This nerfs the maximum possible damage by 43.75%. That seems like a reasonable compromise.

That definitely helps, yes.

xxxDogmanxxxApr 26, 20161 votes

The point of the item is to give a choice to champions like XinZhao Jax Aatrox .

They can use the usual tanky build, or sacrifice a bit of tankiness by getting AS and rewarding them for it with high damage output. It's basically the same choice as they currently face, but I feel that this item would really synergize better with their kits than current items. The original idea for this item was for it to be used by attack speed champions, and make them choose between this and item 3124 , especially in patch 6.9 where they're removing the AoE damage of and replacing it with item 3931 's passive, gated by having to stack it up. This item idea's damage is gated by its active's cooldown and short duration instead.

PoskeApr 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The point of the item is to give a choice to champions like .

They can use the usual tanky build, or sacrifice a bit of tankiness by getting AS and rewarding them for it with high damage output. It's basically the same choice as they currently face, but I feel that this item would really synergize better with their kits than current items. The original idea for this item was for it to be used by attack speed champions, and make them choose between this and , especially in patch 6.9 where they're removing the AoE damage of and replacing it with 's passive, gated by having to stack it up. This item idea's damage is gated by its active's cooldown and short duration instead.

Jax will always get regablade and gunblade Xin zhao is trash champion none really cares... I Can see aatrox and irelia liking it

xxxDogmanxxxApr 29, 20161 votes

Not sure you're the most objective of people, but 'kay.

PoskeApr 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Not sure you're the most objective of people, but 'kay.

I am pretty safe to say if Attackspeed hydra goes through Irelia ll be at 75% + - banrate

Overall I dont understand the purpose of that item?

You seem to be wanting to create an item for yi to compensate nerfing of other his items..

Is that objective?

I will always accept a new item

Anyway I dont like that active can you change it to something more interesting lets face it its a hydra with mini steroid after.. Not so intriging

We can asweel remove wits end And put some stealing passives on that hydra

MXXXXXLApr 25, 20161 votes

I really like the build path, but that item active is way too powerful.

xxxDogmanxxxApr 25, 20161 votes

Thanks for the compliment and the criticism. The item is basically KogMaw 's W, but with a shorter duration and a far longer cooldown. If it's too powerful, any suggestions to what I should tone down?

MXXXXXLApr 26, 20161 votes

Probably reworking the item passive entirely lol, imagine Master Yi with item 3931 item 3124 item 3153 item 3006 item 3072 and your new item 100 to 0ing tanks.

xxxDogmanxxxApr 26, 20161 votes

By your example, MasterYi would be able to do that with those items anyways, even without my item. Besides, the maximum damage of the item has already been lowered to take him into account. It's not like the item is cheap. It is 3500 gold, after all. would have to somehow fit the item in his build by sacrificing another core item, especially since he'll be even more starved for gold now that both item 3931 and item 3124 are going to be far more expensive while also being weaker in patch 6.9.

Xx420n0sc0p3sxXApr 25, 20161 votes

Oh god 5.0 attack speed sated yi who has basically 8.0 attack speed cause of passive and sated.

Pls no

xxxDogmanxxxApr 25, 20161 votes

They're putting Sated Devourer's passive into a 3600 gold item in patch 6.9 and gating it by having to stack it with 7 auto attacks first. A jungler like Yi is going to have to farm 7100 gold to afford sated plus this item idea. I actually intend to give Yi a choice, either the Sated passive, or this.

morris1Apr 25, 20161 votes

Seems like a good addition to the Hydra tree to suit all 3 categories of auto attackers, but I feel as if it needs a bit of tweaking especially on the double attack speed cap since it can get insanely good on auto attack carries (5 attack speed means 1000 damage per second from the on hit active alone).

xxxDogmanxxxApr 25, 20161 votes

Thanks for the compliment and the criticism. As for the 5.0 attack speed, that would require that a champion get 2.5 Attack Speed before the active. That would take quite a few attack speed items, which thus gates this item idea as I envisioned it would. After all, to get those attack speed items, they would have to sacrifice getting other items.

Raiku KawisaApr 25, 20161 votes

And with that Shyvana will never be allowed to be played again.

WheatloafApr 25, 20161 votes

The problem is AD items already have a ridiculous amount of stats that multiply the effectiveness of each other. Allowing attack speed to scale on top of itself in addition to that might be a little much...

warpenguin555Apr 25, 20161 votes

For some reason I feel like pickaxe should replace that long sword

xxxDogmanxxxApr 25, 20161 votes

I considered it, but I ultimately decided to go with item 1036 because item 1037 would have given the item +45 Damage instead of +35 Damage and the combine cost would have been too low. I really wanted it at 3500 gold to match the other Hydras.

WoonStruckApr 25, 20161 votes

You could also make have a passive similar to Sterak's: Increase base attack speed by 50%, instead of 50% bonus. Just a thought.

DorkunedAurasApr 25, 20161 votes

That would be broken.

All AS buffs work off of base AS, so a minor increase would also buff all AS buffs you get, thus being incredibly multiplicative scaling

Sterak's works because nothing multiplicative works off of base AD.

PoskeApr 26, 20161 votes

Whats the goal of this item?

Hydra alternative?

What champions would get that item?

xxxDogmanxxxApr 26, 20161 votes

XinZhao Jax Aatrox

TranozeApr 26, 20161 votes

What about 2 more hydra for armor/magic resist and mana? One will act like item 3091 but steal both armor and magic resist One will act like old item 3508

xxxDogmanxxxApr 26, 20161 votes

Thank you for the suggestion. Though I would love to see an item that steals armor, I don't think it would fit as part of the Hydra items. Hydras are AoE Physical Damage items. An AoE Physical Damage item that steals armor/mr will be quite overpowered, likely the most overpowered of all items. Part of the reason I put physical damage for Relentless Hydra was so that it could still be countered by Armor. Thornmail in particular would be a very effective for Relentless Hydra, but would e far less effective against a Hydra item that steals armor.

Neku21May 6, 20161 votes

you're a little unclear with the second part of the active "Additionally, your total attack speed and attack speed cap are multiplied by 1.5 (20 second cooldown)." for how long? plz not permanently xD

xxxDogmanxxxMay 6, 20161 votes

For 3 seconds. I'll edit the post to make it clearer. Thank you for the suggestion.