Kayn using mana doesn't make sense

kargish··63 votes·4,141 views

It doesn't quite make sense to me why Kayn is a mana spending champion. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against him being limited by a form of resource, but I just don't understand why it had to be mana.

If we consider the fact that Kayn is the student of Zed, aka a student of shadow ninjutsu, then you'd think that Kayn would be taught the same techniques as Zed himself. Zed uses energy to use his shadow abilities, which is resource that focuses on physical limitations and is also used by all the other ninjas (Kennen Akali Shen (LeeSin?)). If we take a look at Akali she also uses energy as a resource, and also focuses on shadow ninjutsu as her title is 'The Fist of Shadow' after all.

So why does Kayn not use energy as a resource? Why does Kayn have to use mana, a form of energy that manifests on the users mind, to cast his shadow abilities? If Kayn decides to go shadow assassin, he gains the ability to spawn a living shadow just like Zed, but this one uses mana. Not to mention that Kayn/Rhaast use no form of magic when they use Q and W. Another thing I really feel like was a missed opportunity, is that Rhaast also uses mana and not a similar system like Aatrox does, or at the very least rage.

47 Comments

morris152 votes

If Darius needs mana just to rotate an axe around himself while Garen freely burps a giant sword out of the sky like nothing happened I'm not even surprised anymore.

Holloaway12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moraru Maurice,realm=EUNE,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=Ai2ieAf3,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-08-07T16:59:41.824+0000)

If Darius needs mana just to rotate an axe around himself while Garen freely burps a giant sword out of the sky like nothing happened I'm not even surprised anymore.

THIS.

kile14730 votes

Garen, like a true Damacian, does not use magic. That sword is constantly suspended above him with a giant crane and is dropped on his signal.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Best answer.

Make this official lore Rito.

SEKAI2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moraru Maurice,realm=EUNE,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=Ai2ieAf3,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-08-07T16:59:41.824+0000)

If Darius needs mana just to rotate an axe around himself while Garen freely burps a giant sword out of the sky like nothing happened I'm not even surprised anymore.

In the case of Garen, it's just that Demacia does not use nor tolerate the use of magic as a whole. However it would seem royalties and others among the high rankings get exception from this rule (see J4, Lux, whoever that made Galio etc), because why, welcome to the old school feudalistic kingdoms. Garen probably just opt for rune and enchantment based use like Riven's sword instead of learning to use magic on his own because of his insanely strict moral and his rabid commitment to Demacia. This is my take.

Still, there are other oddballs, like how Darius need to use mana to swing his axe like you said, or how Yasuo does not have a mana bar to control the wind effortlessly (it's not enchantment, since Yasuo is said to have learned the art himself). Kat is also an odd one, it's never mentioned how she could blink.

Anyways. Resource is mostly used for balancing, while Riot tries to have it makes sense thematically, but there are just sometimes it can't be.

aZ3R0n31 votes

I actually found myself agreeing with all your points. Very well written post, and maybe it's something that Riot should consider of it was overlooked during Kayn's creation.

Here's another idea: What if Kayn uses mana while in starting form, energy if he goes SA, and builds rage if he goes Rhaast? That would significantly change the way he is played.

50000000000000006 votes

Sounds great! As an assassin, Kayn wants burst over DPS, so energy gating his abilities can make sense. Will probably require compensation buffs, though. His Q is the only spammable ability he has, so that's the only ability that can be realistically energy-gated. On the other hand, Rhaast prefers DPS (since all his abilities do %HP damage), so rage gating his ultimate has some potential.

It'll probably become more unsatisfying to play unless handled right, so that's a concern.

GGLineaR9 votes

Why does Tristana shooting a cannonball at the ground to jump cost mana? Or throwing a bomb at you. That costs a ton of mana.

Why does Heimerdinger placing a turret kit that includes all its parts, and assembles itself cost mana?

Why does Poppy body slamming someone cost mana? A BODY SLAM.

Why does Singed picking you up and flipping you over his head cost mana. Or him drinking a fucking potion that he literally has in his hand.

Why does Warwick need mana to fucking bite you?

It's Riot's way of adding "counterplay" to a character without actually putting any thought into it.

ninjaroxas7 votes

Well with blitz you could say he runs on mana

GGLineaR1 votes

touche, removed, and replaced with two that really irritate me when I think about it.

Mr Noggenfogger1 votes

Singed's potion is where he keeps his mana and liked to get high off it

GGLineaR1 votes

I wouldn't put it past singed to huff mana.

Sad Tyrant2 votes

Tristana Hextech MAGIC + MACHINE Heimerdinger Hextech Poppy Fueling a Magic Hammer Singed Hextech + magic alchemy Warwick Hextech Implants from singed.

lel, my shitty explanations from the lore

GGLineaR1 votes

If it's hextech, the mana comes from the machine or an external power source. Not the person. Otherwise, that is just crappy design. Not everyone would be able to use it the same way, since I guarentee not everyone has the same level of magical strength, trained, or innate.

Also. Current singed. 0 hextech. Nada.

Maybe in his rework there will be, but rn he's just super fucking buff.

And for Warwick. I understand that for his E. But his Q is literally him just fucking biting someone. I can do that, and I don't need mana lol

EDIT: Also, I chose my specific examples for a reason. They make no sense lol.

Sad Chihuahua3 votes

Trist's cannon is a regular cannon. WW and Singed use chemtech.

ninjaroxas1 votes

I think if i stretch it a bit i could explain singed. His mana is how much of his potion he has left and the reason his r cost mana is because he overdoses, his q is him draining his potion,and his e is him useing it for a quick burst of strength. Like i said stretching it a bit, it also wouldn't explain his w

Wimbledofy4 votes

also fiora dashing, darius swinging his axe, pantheon throwing a spear and many other things.

MoldyCheese16 votes

its for the sole reason of, if he had no mana he would be broken beyond believing in lane, and energy would be gone in a flash.

kargish3 votes

I don't mind him being limited by resources at all, in fact I hardly ever seen Kayn run out of mana, but it's just the whole concept that he uses mana while any other shadow ninjutsu user uses energy instead.

MoldyCheese12 votes

{quoted}

I don't mind him being limited by resources at all, in fact I hardly ever seen Kayn run out of mana, but it's just the whole concept that he uses mana while any other shadow ninjutsu user uses energy instead.

he does run out of mana to stay healthy, but blue will eventually negate it.

Bard R Friday1 votes

{quoted}

its for the sole reason of, if he had no mana he would be broken beyond believing in lane, and energy would be gone in a flash.

He already has the highest mana regen in the game at both lvl 1 and lvl 18, because he is meant to be able to spam abilities in jungle. Furthermore, his mana costs are also really low, he hardly has to worry about mana in the current state. I don't see the problem with changing it like this.

MoldyCheese12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Flay on Words,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=Ai2ieAf3,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2017-08-08T00:18:17.027+0000)

He already has the highest mana regen in the game at both lvl 1 and lvl 18, because he is meant to be able to spam abilities in jungle. Furthermore, his mana costs are also really low, he hardly has to worry about mana in the current state. I don't see the problem with changing it like this.

his e takes 90 mana, he does burn thu mana fast but he gets blue buff.

Almighty5 votes

It would make more sense if Shadow Assassin Kayn used Energy and Rhaast used some form of Rage, but i imagine that that would be a nightmare to code.

Almighty.

Corvo Attano1 votes

Why was this downvoted....? I was thinking the same thing +1

KawaiiShroom4 votes

Nasus and renecton are brothers and hey nasus use mana and renecton use fury

kargish4 votes

I see that making sense though, Nasus draws upon necromantic (kinda) powers to use spells like his W, E and R. Renekton is simply an entity of fury, and none of his spells besides his ult uses any form of magic, but rather uses his physical limitations.

Umbra Z2 votes

{quoted}

Nasus and renecton are brothers and hey nasus use mana and renecton use fury

But nasus is all calm and chill, which reflects his farm simulator playstyle, while renekton got sick of xerath trolling him and is toxic so now he uses rage

Aσtsuke3 votes

I know this makes no sense in LoL but usually "mana" refers to the energy of life, you use your mana for everything, magical or physical effort.

Don't expect logic in this game, where some champs are limited by mana, some by energy, and others by nothing at all, at the same time.

Tommy PickleNose3 votes

I wouldn't look at mana at a lore standpoint really. Mana is more a gameplay thing than anything else. People have used Darius and I would even argue talon shouldn't have mana thematically either but they do for balance purposes. If kayn had energy he would have another thing tacked onto him for how he would get energy back which they obviously didn't want. He doesn't have a mechanic to get mana back other than regen so they would have to tack on another passive somewhere for him to get energy back like lee sin has on his passive or akali on q or Shen on his taunt of zed on his passive? I think it's his passive not sure.

Arakadia3 votes

Wouldn't mama which is more mental power then physical make more sense for a craft like shadow technique which requires much skill and concentration?

In addition, Rajasthani using a bloodwell mechanic wouldn't necessarily make sense. He is always eager for battle so rage doesn't make sense either.

Finally Riot doesn't want to give Kayn energy cause he'll be EVEN MORE SIMILR to Zed. Same with making Rhaast like Aatrox.

Starboyˇ2 votes

Honestly when i played Kayn his mana costs felt pretty low,actually thought he was resourceless lol

NineTailedMystic2 votes

Because energy is an awful design.

Ariel the Cruel3 votes

As Riot implements it, I would argue energy is a better design than mana. 3 reasons:

  1. High up-time. There's no reason to punish someone because they used an ability 2 minutes ago. Secondary resources should be a fight consideration, not a "between recalls" one.
  2. Static. Energy costs can't be completely negated by buying items. They're just as restricting at lvl 1 as they are at lvl 18.
  3. Skill-based "buy back." How much skill is debatable, but all energy champions have the ability to regain some energy by interacting with their opponent.
NineTailedMystic1 votes

It'd be fine if everyone was an Energy user, or if everyone was a Mana user.

  1. Two minutes does not punish you for using a spell. Even at 5 Mana per 5 you regenerate 120 Mana in two minutes which recovers more than almost any single casting of a spell. And 5 Mp5 is not hard to come by. Ahri has 6 Mp5 at level 1 for example. "Between recalls" is good design. Someone can run out of Mana before a teamfight unlike an Energy user who will almost always have a rotation ready.

  2. Energy is stronger early game because they don't really have to manage Energy in lane. Give it about 15 seconds and you'll be ready for another rotation. But in contrast Mana is stronger past early game. Requires less managing because most Mana users buy a Mana item, more rotations per Mana pool, and some items and champions scale off of Mana. So I find "Static" to be a bad thing, as it doesn't let the user scale.

  3. You can add that to Mana too, such as how Kassadin W restores Mana against all enemy units but is quintupled against enemy champions (20 to 40% missing Mana based on rank).

AirKingNeo2 votes

Maybe buff Shadow Assassin by changing his secondary bar to Energy and give him energy costs?

I mean, it wouldn't be bad and you wouldn't have the problem of energy being broken early game.

FantasySniper2 votes

They wanted him to be a jungler, but obviously you can't have anyone beating out LeeSin , so ergo they gated him with mana.

Blade of Justic1 votes

I think it's because energy is rather difficult of a resource to play around in a kit when you look at builds and what not.

This might explain why Riot hasn't released an energy champ for quite a long time.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

think about what a coding and balance NIGHTMARE it would be for Riot to make Kayn use mana, energy and rage. Kayn's a mix of human and Darkin, so i guess that mix makes him use mana. Also Kayn's not originally from Ionia, maybe thats the key.

zero3561 votes

I'd like health costs I'd be interesting for an assassin and would fit the internal war aspect, with Kayn literally killing himself to fight Rhaast (or fighting back if you transformed into Rhaast)

You could lower costs for assassin form because Kayn won, so he can chill a bit Increase them for Reaper form, because he's doubling down on the sabotage if he can't outright win

This increase/decrease would also match the playstyle/build of the given form

General Esdeath 1 votes

Lore wise he's not a ninja and he's using his own physical weapon for his Q and W.

Oriyoki1 votes

Unpopular opinion: Kayn is too easy to snowball on and kill squishies on...

Yesterday I played him for the first time... I strated chicken camp both times and didn't get a leach. I cleared all camps without problem... on a level 15 account with no T3 runes.

KoKoboto1 votes

Kayn is a braindead champ who spams abilities off CD so they didn't want to make him use energy.

Fawksea1 votes

i thought this post was gonna be a stupid one about how he has no mana issues, even doe going raahst makes you able to spam spells a lot without dying so he does run out. but eh you have a point, doe i'd hate the feel of energy on kayn, it'd feel bad because like other ninjas, a full combo usually wastes all your energy

Bouncemaster Zac1 votes

To my knowledge, Energy is reserved for Ninjas. And LeeSin .

PaffWasTaken1 votes

Energy isn't linked to "ninjustsu" like you seem to think, but to Ionian training. Anyone who trained and fought in Ioniahas energy, the exceptions are: Yasuo , since he uses a forgotten martial art MasterYi , probably for the same reasons Jhin , because he dosen't have any kind of martial art at all Irelia , because she uses some kind of magic to control the blades Syndra , same reasons

Cowseed1 votes

spamming E and getting legit free heals would make his jungling "sub-par"

Gamukko Perkele1 votes

I hate that Kayn uses mana, they need to make him like Zed. Riot please! :´(

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