It's absurd that RIot has allowed this to happen for so long. Rengar suffers while Twitch is around.

kargish··184 votes·9,209 views

Honestly I don't know why this has been a thing for almost a year now, it's absolutely absurd and is just a massive "screw you" towards us Rengar mains. I shall explain exactly what I am talking about, but I am quite sure you might already have an idea of what I have on my mind.

Since the assassin update back in 2016 Riot implemented 2 different kinds of stealth. Invisibility and camouflage. Camouflage was given to both Rengar and Twitch, and is basically just pre-assassin rework Evenlynn stealth. The most absurd thing though is that since the reworks Rengar has been almost destroyed through nerfs, and the reason being that he was still too strong when coming from stealth or the fact his early game was too strong. On the other hand Twitch has been left almost completely untouched since then, while still being able to perform oneshots on people (or 5 for that matter). The only thing is that Twitch can do it in a much safer and reliable way, oneshotting entire teams without ever putting himself in danger.

To compare I've gone into practice tool to quickly get a few photos of both's range on their camouflage mechanic.

TwitchTwitch

Detection range: approx 500 units https://i.gyazo.com/c141fb0d87918231469b324aad4a84fa.jpg

Attack range with ult: 850 units https://i.gyazo.com/748e316d6f3eb4f3eedff4a9009a7a87.jpg

RengarRengar

Detection range and attack range: 725 https://i.gyazo.com/b977af69f73bf1052270eb45990fdf34.png

So in short Twitch has a far lower detection range and he can attack from this position with the longest auto attack range in the game. Just to make it even more clear, I'll compare them again in terms of all their strengths.

Twitch (Ambush):

  • Has 500 detection range which is shorter than his normal auto attack range
  • Activates after 1 second
  • Gains 10% movement speed increased to 30% if someone is near him that can't see him
  • Up to 50% attack speed
  • Duration is 10 seconds and can be increased to 14 seconds
  • 16 seconds cooldown
  • Resets cooldown upon killing an enemy champion
  • Gives a potential 850 unit gap between Twitch and his opponent

Rengar (Thrill of the Hunt):

  • Has 725 detection range and attack range
  • Activates after 2 seconds
  • Gains 40% movement speed increase at all time
  • Duration is 12/16/20 seconds
  • 130 seconds cooldown in early ranks
  • Gains vision of the nearest enemy within 2000/3000/4000 units and allows Rengar to gain a guaranteed crit if he leaps to them, but also alerts everybody within that radius you're in camouflage.
  • Places him in melee range

Quite frankly Twitch has Rengar's ultimate on a basic ability, with potential 0 cd if he gets a kill. He has a shorter detection range and can attack from further away, so he is far safer than Rengar that even has to go into melee range. He doesn't alert the enemy at all, and he naturally builds critical strike so Rengar doesn't even have an advantage on that part, who has to work for it to get it on the right target while Twitch just right clicks and crits 5 people.

140 Comments

Galacius84 votes

Hey! A thread on gameplay that isn't a one liner or talks about how an CHAMP IS SUPER OP PLZ NERF. Good post. I gave you an upvote for visibility.

SociopathFriend3 votes

Isn't it basically doing just that?

Faceroll Tactics17 votes

It demonstrates why twitch's basic ability is leagues better than rengars ultimate with actual numbers

ModWuks27 votes

Hey kargish, I just wanted to give you major props for writing out a detailed, well thought out post about Twitch. Kudos to you, my dude.

ModCaptainMårvelous16 votes

Because Rengar is a melee assassin while Twitch isn't.

Like there are always more complaints about Rengar while Twitch could do this forever. It's almost as if assassins kept champions like Twitch in place and when you remove their ability to quickly kill targets, bullshit flourishes.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

I'm not sure what you're talking about? Are you implying that Rengar was fine before rework, when he could insta-gib fast and powerfully, because he kept other "bullshit" in line? So instead of fixing a problem, you throw another problem into the mix to deal with said problem, instead of fixing both?

Because I honestly don't get it. Rengar did not only kill ADCs, he killed Bruisers, he killed Mages. Him being able to kill a target fast to prevent "Bullshit" doesn't mean he has a rightful place in the game, nor does it excuse the level of bullshit Rengar used to have. I'm sure you've seen the videos of just how capable Rengar was at insta-gibbing people, and you're saying that's fair because it "Deals with bullshit"?

ModCaptainMårvelous8 votes

It's ok, the point often gets lost when people focus on the champion.

The problem is (and has always been) the double standard of melee vs. ranged. Rengar and Twitch have similar roles. Twitch might not burst as fast as rengar, sure, but Twitch could always do it from a safer position. Even if Rengar did burst you, he was often actively putting himself in a dangerous position by getting into melee range. Optimally, with a squishy build. (Hence why Tank Rengar was an issue and why Rengar is being moved more towards a diver playstyle)

The issue is that if you put these two characters side-by-side and told players to pick one, they'd pick Rengar every time. Rengar is the scary monster who bursts you with zero counterplay and then runs into the jungle. Twitch is the squishy ADC who dies if you breath on him. Sure, it's not the case right this moment, but it's generally what people see when they deal with the characters. My point is that both characters are bullshit. Rengar, however, gets dealt with swiftly because he's the melee assassin who instabursts with zero counterplay.

Twitch is the subtle bullshit. The bullshit you weren't aware you stepped in. The bullshit you hate fighting against but don't say anything because you know the forums would laugh at you for complaining about someone with a 49.99% win rate. Even in this case, characters who aren't as bad as Rengar (Zed, Talon, etc.) are still shafted because this assassin-y feeling of instaburst-zero-counterplay-GG exists simply by being a class.

My core point is that both characters have flaws and need changes, but Twitch gets to scuttle out of the spotlight because "the poor ranged ADCs who are fodder to the big mean assassins" is often the prevailing discourse when it comes to assassin vs. ADC. Even if both characters can appear from stealth and crave you to pieces.

the weeaboo11 votes

You can't really look at one ability and not look at the rest of the kit. Rengar relies on his ult for getting picks and dives. Twitch isn't really using his Q for picks and dives he's using it to reposition and catch his enemies off guard with his ult direction. Replacing Rengar ult with Twitch Q would make him pretty busted. Rengar also builds tankier since he's a diver now, a luxury Twitch doesn't have. Rengars ult also gives him the ability to pretty much guarantee a ton of extra burst, a CC removal, or a hard CC spell.

Comparing the two without looking at their jobs and kit doesn't work. That's like comparing Thresh ult and Veigar E. Veigar E provides harder CC, is ranged so he doesn't need to get close, and is on a much lower cooldown. Thresh gives some damage but is objectively better. However when we consider Thresh is a tanky frontline support and Veigar is a squishy mage it makes more sense.

Vekkna6 votes

You're making it more complicated than it actually is. Yes, let's look at Twitch's job - ADC. Now we ask, "why the fuck is Twitch popping out of stealth and assassinating anything?"

Twitch's job is ADC. The trade-off between and ADC and assassin is dps vs. burst, and assassins usually trade aoe for single-target. Twitch has no trade-offs.

TurquoiseYoshi2 votes

Twitch has no trade-offs? How about having no mobility/defensive spells, shitty laning, and being able to do basically nothing without his ult?

Vekkna3 votes

Yeah, he has just enough trade-offs to sit at 53%+ win rate with 11%+ play rate.

Weiss Guertena4 votes

Hell, if we are going to only compare Twitch's and Rengar's camouflage then might as well do so with Twitch and Xayah's piercing attacks. Xayah gets hers at the beginning of the game and has little to no downtime, unlike Twitch who only obtains it at level 6 and has a 90 second cooldown. Without looking at their entire kits I can easily make it look that Twitch's ultimate is shit because someone else gets it for free at level 1, but anyone who has played the game knows that isn't the case.

ModAcademy Kayn9 votes

There is still a huge difference between Twitch and Rengar here. Twitch cannot, and will not, (Unless absurdly ahead), be able to one shot you. It's going to take multiple auto's, and that's still time in which to react, especially Supports.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW_st2H2Y2Y

Now people are going to yell like they always do "Oh, the Rengar was just ahead", it doesn't matter. It's the mechanics behind what's being allowed that is the problem. Being able to que all your abilities mid-air, into the Ravenous Reset, it's ridiculous. The rework in hand succeeded in slowing that time to kill, albeit failing in many other respects, but you can not compare Rengar's and Twitch's kill time together.

kargish3 votes

True Though I am not comparing their kill time, as an assassin Rengar should be able to perform a far greater burst than Twitch, and as an adc Twitch should be able to outdamage Rengar through extended fights. It's also like this, but what I am talking about here is that Twitch practically has Rengar's ultimate on a basic ability. It has just about the same duration at early ranks, less detection range, no cd if he kills someone and grants him better stats (- the crit from Rengar).

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

The point still applies, Rengar's Leap and Que-in-middle-of-leap was the reason he was so unfun to play against. Because Twitch can not do what Rengar used to be able to, he does not have a superior form of his Ult. Rengar's is meant to get him into killing range, so is Twitch's, but without the additional burst, Rengar's Ult is still the superior one.

It's because it's much better that it has those restrictions placed on him, not that Twitch's is better because he has no penalties.

Enraged Piglet3 votes

I mean Evelynn has Rengars main ability on her passive.. If thats all you care about then.. Twitch is supposed to outdamage rengar in extended fights that's why he has a steroid that gets reset on his ability while rengar has higher base stats and damage.... It's also because rengar has such high base stats at early-mid game that he has such high detection radius compared to twitch.

sure Rengar is mellee but he has high base stats and his ult jumps on bitches and kills them instantly and he has an ability to cancel cc and he's rather tanky compared to twitch. Even a mega fed twitch needs really good positioning and good timing and lots of items to kill the backline really fast by himself. While rengar if at anytime he gets going can oneshot rather easy to the point that if your not grouped as 5 your risking dieing. Which considering all this happens early in the game while twitch is later in the game which usually twitch still needs to at least AA several times to kill someone even late game it's just ridiculous what a Rengar if he's meta can do.

Though twitch probably deserves nerfs why compare him to Rengar. Especially when rengar is stronger in the jungle while twitch is stronger bot laner. Where Rengar can more easily gets kills and use his base damage to God mode the map where twitch can still go God mode generally it's a lot harder for him to get to the point of being unbearable as a meta rengar precisely because rengar has higher base stats and is better jungler which has better influence over the map then pretty much any role except maybe some high tier elo support players

Captain Of Crazy2 votes

Rengar is better top, not jungle

Doozku3 votes

You talk like Rengar can't one shot anymore. A fed Rengar with IE and duskblade can burst harder than old Rengar could with literally just an auto-attack.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

No, what I said was that his kill time was lowered from what his previous version was. From a non-fed Rengar, his rotation is considered much healthier. Fed Rengars, are fed, and are going to do lots of damage fast regardless.

archerno16 votes

Except Twitch cant oneshot

AR URF7 votes

{quoted}

Except Twitch cant oneshot

Which is funny. People trying to use twitch as an example to buff Rengar. They either nerf item 3147 and buff assassins or keep things the same.

kargish6 votes

I'd say we have a reason to do so. If another champion has your ultimate ability on a basic ability, but stronger, then I think something is wrong.

Skorch12 votes

You mean another champion has a worse version of a rengar ult on a basic ability.

Dont get me wrong Twitch Q with his R is better but its his Q AND R. Meanwhile not "If another champion has your ultimate ability on a basic ability, but stronger, then I think something is wrong."

kargish13 votes

Just that Twitch doesn't alert the enemy team is enough to make it more powerful. Duration is the same or stronger at early ranks, it has a lower detection radius and it also gives him steroids once he exits his camouflage. Rengar has the same thing, except larger detection range, an actual cooldown, no steroid gain and a free crit that Twitch builds through items anyway.

kargish45 votes

I don't know how you can say that. The fact that someone can pump out 800 damage every auto with 2.50 attack speed is pretty damn near a oneshot. It's not the fact if he can oneshot as fast as Rengar or not, it's because Twitch has Rengar's ultimate on a basic ability. They do almost the same thing except Twitch's is stronger.

archerno19 votes

{quoted}

I don't know how you can say that. The fact that someone can pump out 800 damage every auto with 2.50 attack speed is pretty damn near a oneshot. It's not the fact if he can oneshot as fast as Rengar or not, it's because Twitch has Rengar's ultimate on a basic ability. They do almost the same thing except Twitch's is stronger.

Can Twitch oneshot on lvl 6 or with just 1 item? And Twitch needs 2-3 sec to burst someone down with full build. Check those videos where rengar used to oneshot in 0.17 sec. Or those high elo pre nerf rengar getting triple kill in less than a sec. Not to mention that Twitch has bad laning and mid game as a compensation. What was Rengars downside? Good jungle clear. Good lane ganks. Sustain. Safe from invades.

kargish35 votes

I can't use pre-rework or pre-nerf Rengar for anything, I am talking about his current state. Rengar doesn't oneshot with 1 item at level 6 either, but it's the concept and yet again it's not about oneshotting.

Enraged Piglet7 votes

except the reason they nerfed rengar wasn't because of his current state but they nerfed him because of what he was before he was nerfed. Junglers already have a lot of influence over the game and when rengar is strong it's because if they get one kill they can just one shot everyone. That means. You can't farm, you can't ward even with a teamate sense he can kill you both. You can't jungle otherwise you'll die in your own jungle to rengar. You can't do anything. At least with twitch generally he can't be that impactful and only when later in the game against a squishy team can he just come out and shit on everyone.

Though there is the fact that twitch is super strong and good in solo que. But still not as good as pre-nerf rengar. I mean really if twitch is the same champion as Rengar as you seem to claim exept stronger then why not play twitch???? I mean unless there are innate differnces to twitch to rengar which keeps your from playing them. But I have to tell you right now that a lot of the differences between the two that a lot is lost somewhere or twitch would be picked banned every game like Rengar was before he was nerfed.

kargish13 votes

[{quoted}](name=Enraged Piglet,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0uWOBIM6,comment-id=00000002000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-18T15:33:48.190+0000)

I mean really if twitch is the same champion as Rengar as you seem to claim exept stronger then why not play twitch????

This is not what I am saying at all. Rengar and Twitch are not the same champion, not even the slightest, but Twitch's Q is almost identical, if not stronger, than Rengar's R. I've already said in a lot of my comments already, it feels weird that a marksman/assassin hybrid champion with the furthest range in the game, gets to have a lower detection radius than than an assassin, with the same duration, no notifications for the enemy team and 0 seconds cooldown if he makes a kill. Plus the fact it gives him steroids once he exits camouflage.

Imperial Japan4 votes

Look, twitch being nerfed won't do anything for Rengar, so I don't really know why you're posting this

Vojt1 votes

{quoted}

Look, twitch being nerfed won't do anything for Rengar, so I don't really know why you're posting this

Someone gets it. Yes, Twitch is strong, he probably won't get nerfed until they release that sweet, sweet championship Twitch. Just because Twitch is meta doesn't mean people get the right to compare him to a melee bruiser diving assassin, no really cared about Twitch when he had a 2% pick rate. I'm sure the poster can't wait until they buff/Revert/Rework Rengar just so he can end up with 100% pick or ban rate.

Imperial Japan1 votes

Yup

Pierce The Veal2 votes

{quoted}

I don't know how you can say that. The fact that someone can pump out 800 damage every auto with 2.50 attack speed is pretty damn near a oneshot. It's not the fact if he can oneshot as fast as Rengar or not, it's because Twitch has Rengar's ultimate on a basic ability. They do almost the same thing except Twitch's is stronger.

Don't forget he can do it to a whole team.

Wimbledofy1 votes

well he's right that he can't literally one shot, because oneshotting isn't really even a thing in league except for cho'gath. But he can nearly instakill someone before they get a chance to do anything. For the sake of simplicity when replying to someone that says someone can't oneshot, you should clarify what you mean. Unless twitch is killing a level 1 person that was afk and just came back he won't ever be able to 1 shot anyone.

LeBlanc Rose1 votes

Not exactly true. item 3147 abusers can delete in 1 auto with crit. Alistar when going AP. Blitzcrank when going AP. Quinn . Thresh when going AD. Vayne when she crits on first auto. And quite a few more.

Wimbledofy1 votes

alistar and blitz for sure can't 1 shot with ap. Quinn requires at least E+auto even then I don't think it's a complete 1 shot. Thresh will never be at a point he can 1 shot in a normal game, and vayne also won't 1 shot.

LeBlanc Rose2 votes

Do you mean 1-shot as in killing someone 100-0 in 1 hit or killing someone in practically no time, like 1 second?

Wimbledofy1 votes

I used the word literally, it should have been pretty clear. One Shot I'm guessing you didn't read any more than my first sentence in the comment you originally replied to

LeBlanc Rose1 votes

Go out into a game and play full AP blitzcrank mid. Or even better, watch a few montages. Seriously. Most get killed within 1 second.

Wimbledofy1 votes

I swear you must not be able to read.

jama6556 votes

So your saying buff gnar/ nocturne?

kargish3 votes

You're the only one who understood my point mate

ModKnightsKemplar5 votes

Excellent points. Love the photos that perfectly illustrate your point, too.

As a aside, I think it's important to note here that Riot has already done away with the the roster updates that led to these sorts of situations. I think they do deserve a little credit there, generally, for understanding that those practices led to some pretty questionable design directions.

But yes, both Rengar and Twitch are in very strange places, and juxtaposing their abilities is a nice way to highlight how weird this got. Both of them need work, and threads like this are a great way to communicate to Riot that we want these champs higher on the priority list.

Sohleks3 votes

Oh oh! Let me juxtapose some abilities too!

I was thinking about this the other day. Trundle Pillar versus Yorick "cage"

Trundle Pillar pros: •Takes longer to walk around pillar slowed, than to destroy Yorick's cage. •Indestructable (that's a given) •1000 range. Better than 600 range. •Pops up instantly. Yorick cage must be better aimed. •On a very easy high sustain character that can sabotage enemy tank just by pressing R. Negs are: •uses 5 more mana •has a 2 second more cooldown

It's like Yorick was designed for another more fair game.

I remember long ago though people frequently said " you can't compare two different abilities in different kits!" but man times have changed and balance is so oughta whack

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

I mean, you do have to be careful directly comparing abilities, because not every ability is supposed to have the same level of power in it.

In Twitch and Rengar's case, I feel it's especially relevant because of the reasoning behind Rengar's abilities being the way they are. They vision ranges and things have a logical process behind them that Twitch's abilities don't adhere to, and he also has the advantage of being ranged. That feels bad.

Liam Allen5 votes

Please do not spread misinformation. Camouflage was updated during the Assassin updates to universally reveal the user once within 700 units of an enemy champion. Twitch and Rengar's camouflages have the same effect radii. You must've confused Rengar's leap indicator for a camouflage indicator.

That said, I do not know why Rengar has no camouflage indicator like Evelynn or Twitch, and I agree Twitch is indeed a problem right now.

N3mO064 votes

Twitch lacks of counterplay. He will always have the advantage of first auto thanks to his detection range and extra auto's range. Rengar's r is just a joke. One of the worst of the game. Too many times is better avoid to use it to keep the surprise effect.

koshkyra3 votes

lets not forget that rengars is also an ultimate while twitchs is a basic ability that resets

But i dont think rengar is weak, twitch is just broken atm

Hoox0rz3 votes

I'll simplify this for people to understand.

An ADC should never be able to 1v1 an assassin or be able to out burst them unless they are extremely ahead.

That is what assassins are made to do. Just like tanks should be able to beat up on an assassin because of their tankiness (EDIT: Bruisers more than tanks but you get the idea). If you want balance then champion roles are going to have to be simplified to do what they were meant to do.

ADC - Sustained damage Assassin - Burst squishies Tank - Tank damage Support - Provide support by way of CC, Healing, Buffs, etc.

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