New Wukong Passive?

Azrael Evernight·Dec 24, 2018·4 votes·3,861 views

Skin becomes Stone: As Wukong's HP gets lower his armor, mgc rst, and atk dmg get a percent increase, but at the same time his atk spd, mvmnt spd, and his E range get a percent decrease.

I know Wu's current passive is utterly trash in comparison to a lot of champs right now. Especially when compared to a champ like Irelia. So I thought this would be a good change and a great way to bring the champ back to where he'd be a popular bruiser again and not just an assassin. Any thoughts?

19 Comments

ThefrostyvikingDec 24, 20181 votes

First up, bruiser is such a broad term it basically does not exist or work in any kind of way, it includes far too many classes and sub classes under the same label to make any kind of sense when it comes to identity and role, this is important

Second, a large part of why wukong constantly has been gutted, nerfed and then subsequently left in a dumpster is exactly the fact that he has no solid identity, his base kit is exceptionally good for an assassin, his ult is a great one for AOE/DPS/CC and his passive is for tankiness.

He has elements of a tank, of a assassin and of a diver, all baked into one, which makes balancing this mokey hilariously impossible.

Give him a good passive? Are you ready to sacrifice the rest of his kit for it? Because that is basically what would happen.

What wukong needs is not some kind of buff or nerf or even a new passive, he needs a full on VGU, a swain/galio level one.

MankeyMadnessDec 24, 20181 votes

Could give him a tiny bit of resist for each tick of his ult on an enemy champ but lose the knockup. I'd like a VGU that makes him feel a) more Vastayan and b) more like a Wuju student, with some Yi-esque skill design but with more focus on defense and trickery and less on unavoidable DPS

ThefrostyvikingDec 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Could give him a tiny bit of resist for each tick of his ult on an enemy champ but lose the knockup. I'd like a VGU that makes him feel a) more Vastayan and b) more like a Wuju student, with some Yi-esque skill design but with more focus on defense and trickery and less on unavoidable DPS

If he doesnt have the knockup he just gets CC'ed and wrecked right away, or he he keeps the knockup but loses the damage and gets ignored.

What the heck is a wuju student? Yi is the only "master" we got off it and he is terrible.

Trickery involving clones/duplicates? Copy shaco or neeko?

I honestly think his ult has to go entirely, it has the exact same problem old seju ult does.....far too powerful and it kills his powerbudget.

Well not that riot actually came up with a good solution for that but the idea was right.

Blue Moon WolfDec 25, 20181 votes

Yea, but that's not going to happen. He needs something for the time being. Riot will not give him a VGU because of China and even then he still falls behind champs like Pantheon , DrMundo and possibly Tryndamere who Riot would say are in far more need. At the rate things are going now, it could be easily another 4 years before he is in a position to get a VGU and I'm honestly doubting the game will last that long to get it done.

ThefrostyvikingDec 25, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Moon Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=7ndq4mKg,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-12-25T19:25:39.189+0000)

Yea, but that's not going to happen. He needs something for the time being. Riot will not give him a VGU because of China and even then he still falls behind champs like , and possibly who Riot would say are in far more need. At the rate things are going now, it could be easily another 4 years before he is in a position to get a VGU and I'm honestly doubting the game will last that long to get it done.

How many years was it that poppy and yorick sat without one even when needing one? Pretty sure it was a very long, long time.

Wukong while not good hasnt been as bad as either of them were and not for as long.

And he cant be buffed because he is already a strong cheese pick, not good outisde that but still.

Blue Moon WolfDec 26, 20181 votes

about 2-4 years, same amount of time Wukong has been waiting now Yorick specifically I remember it was two years since he got shelved before he was back up for an update). Unless we are counting "from release" but I can't say Poppy was bad that whole time as the game has just plain changed to where she became a bad design.

Look, a flat buff would put him over the edge, we saw it happen already. But that doesn't mean that they can't alter him a tad in the mean time to get him to play more like he was meant to and less like how he has to in order to do well now. Even Poppy and Yorick got minor changed to their kit while they waited, granted it was only on the scale of buffs and nerfs, but then you look at champs like Aatrox who got a mini-rework while he waited and Swain who got a brand new ability while waiting for his.

I don't think asking for a new passive when we are going to have to wait another 2-3 years give or take for a VGU is too much to ask for, and that's just me low balling the wait time.

ThefrostyvikingDec 26, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Moon Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=7ndq4mKg,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2018-12-26T00:10:31.192+0000)

about 2-4 years, same amount of time Wukong has been waiting now specifically I remember it was two years since he got shelved before he was back up for an update). Unless we are counting "from release" but I can't say Poppy was bad that whole time as the game has just plain changed to where she became a bad design.

Pretty sure Yorick at least went bad from the end of season 2 (even removed from weekly rotations) and onwards, then sitting without a rework until ....was it the end of season 6?

Poppy similarly went bad around there and ....well she only had to wait about 2 and a half seasons.

But both those champs were straight garbage the entire time, wukong even now has a decent enough winrate even if his playrate is very low, and what attempts were made at helping him just broke him right away.

Even Poppy and Yorick got minor changed to their kit while they waited, granted it was only on the scale of buffs and nerfs, but then you look at champs like who got a mini-rework while he waited and who got a brand new ability while waiting for his.

Yorick and poppy got nothing of any kind of significance and i am pretty sure they only ever got nerfed when they became OP or extremely underpowered to keep them at some level of play...even if it was a low one.

Swain here is a unusual case because he was by no means anywhere near bad when updated, just outdated but he was actually performing really well in practiced hands easily able to contend with meta picks, even countering some.

Riot just decided his lane interaction was a bit lame so they made his Q a zone controller rather than a point and click like his E was.

I don't think asking for a new passive when we are going to have to wait another 2-3 years give or take for a VGU is too much to ask for, and that's just me low balling the wait time.

Thing is, a new passive of any kind of worth is the exact same thing as a buff, which we already established would break wukong, again.

Even Lissandra ate a heap of nerfs to get her new passive through, if wukong gets this treatment he might have a more amusing passive but he still ends up a champ that has minimal playrate and average winate relying on cheese.

Which makes investing any kind of work into him, utterly pointless.

Blue Moon WolfDec 27, 20181 votes

Swain here is a unusual case because he was by no means anywhere near bad when updated, just outdated but he was actually performing really well in practiced hands easily able to contend with meta picks, even countering some.

So, like how you say Wukong is right now? yet he's unusual here? No, he is a GREAT example here. He got an ability change that went rather well and then they decided to update him afterwards. They could have just rested on that like they did with Mord and moved on, but no. They gave him a small update that they ended up throwing out anyway after reworking him. When it comes down to it, that was wasted man hours on an ability they weren't even going to keep. If they can waste time and effort on updating an ability for a champ they are just going to rework a few months later, they can update the passive on Wukong seeing as they won't be updating him again for years to come.

Thing is, a new passive of any kind of worth is the exact same thing as a buff, which we already established would break wukong, again.

a new passive would not be a buff at all and it's ridiculous to think that, especially when it would VERY likely come with nerfs to other, more powerful parts of his kit that currently already take up most of his power budget like his Ult. The point in that would be to disperse his power budget and open his build options outside of the abused Assassin build which let me tell you, EVERYONE seems to hate him for. If we got something to redistribute his power budget to sustain rather then burst, it would be good for the game.

and Yea, Liss may have came with nerfs, but they made her passive feel better because of it and from the sounds of things, Liss players were for the most part happy to have that change, despite the nerfs. It would be the same thing for Wukong players if Riot did something with his passive, focused him in one direction instead of having him with a confusing mash up of Diver, Tank and Assassin mechanics.

And again, at least it would be SOMETHING while we are forced to wait another few YEARS till he will be up for an update that they had promised years ago before they canceled the diver update. We are already tired of waiting for an update that is never coming. We won't be waiting forever for this mythical update. I know I sure as hell won't be.

ThefrostyvikingDec 27, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Moon Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=7ndq4mKg,comment-id=000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-27T08:16:17.773+0000)

So, like how you say Wukong is right now? yet he's unusual here? No, he is a GREAT example here. He got an ability change that went rather well and then they decided to update him afterwards. They could have just rested on that like they did with Mord and moved on, but no. They gave him a small update that they ended up throwing out anyway after reworking him. When it comes down to it, that was wasted man hours on an ability they weren't even going to keep. If they can waste time and effort on updating an ability for a champ they are just going to rework a few months later, they can update the passive on Wukong seeing as they won't be updating him again for years to come.

I have no knowledge of this intended ability change that got scrapped but if Riot did move like this its far from the first time so what are you even complaining about?

Mulitple champs got this treatment, others like morde got replacement abilities and ended up much worse for it.

I dont think anyone has any right to complain compared to the morde mains,.....or rather the Sejuani mains but more on that below.

And again, a new passive that actually does anything for wukong means he gets nerfed in some other way which essentially means he ends up in the same spot anyway thus its absolutely wasted work.

a new passive would not be a buff at all and it's ridiculous to think that, especially when it would VERY likely come with nerfs to other, more powerful parts of his kit that currently already take up most of his power budget like his Ult. The point in that would be to disperse his power budget and open his build options outside of the abused Assassin build which let me tell you, EVERYONE seems to hate him for. If we got something to redistribute his power budget to sustain rather then burst, it would be good for the game.

Thing is, assassin build will never go away as long as he has his W, as long as he can just "dine and dash" damage out then he will always have to be squishy to reward actually hitting him.

Make him sustain more at the expense of damage? Then he either ends up grinding enemies out of lane or he does no damage and ends up being useless at any rate.

He needs a full VGU, not some minor hackjob.

and Yea, Liss may have came with nerfs, but they made her passive feel better because of it and from the sounds of things, Liss players were for the most part happy to have that change, despite the nerfs. It would be the same thing for Wukong players if Riot did something with his passive, focused him in one direction instead of having him with a confusing mash up of Diver, Tank and Assassin mechanics.

They are not the same, Lissandra´s kit is very steamlined in total with the passive being the only thing that never made any sense prior to getting a new one.

Wukong? His entire kit was a mess from the start.

Needs a VGU to sort him out.

And again, at least it would be SOMETHING while we are forced to wait another few YEARS till he will be up for an update that they had promised years ago before they canceled the diver update. We are already tired of waiting for an update that is never coming. We won't be waiting forever for this mythical update. I know I sure as hell won't be.

Bad news for you then then, because the class updates have always been ridiculous failures overall.

Tank update? Just ask the Seju mains what they feel about it and they´ll tell you that wukong players should be praising god while crying tears of appreciation for not ending up on the same road as the sej mains did.

45% winrate and 0,65% playrate could easily have been the fate of any diver part of the update.

Blue Moon WolfDec 27, 20181 votes

This has nothing to do with the class updates. They said they were going to update him TWO years ago and they never did. THAT'S what this has to do with. Now they are saying they won't update him cause China likes him as is even though they had him on the list for some work. If you can't settle for anything less for a VGU then that's on you. I'm not waiting for another 4 years for China to possibly be okay with the idea of maybe potentially giving him a minor VGU and honestly I don't know a lot of people who are either.

Honestly, you have NO idea how long Wukong mains have been waiting now and have ZERO clue what kind of crap we have had to go through because Riot refuses to update him. I don't want to hear " you should be happy that he isn't like champ X" cause frankly, it's a poor excuse for someone who hardly plays him and is just looking for the worst examples to prove their point. What's more, you likely don't even understand yourself cause odds are you don't even play those champs either. I played morde and Seju pre rework (Both reworks in Seju's case). I can tell you Morde is healthier then he was despite him breaking as hard as he did and Seju has hardly changed when it comes to a kit that doesn't work well.

The game gets updated. Champs who don't get updated rot. I would rather see him end up like Morde and Seju then end up like Yorick or Urgot where they ended up shelving them for years before they got back to work on them. He's ALREADY been waiting for years for them to begin work, if they keep waiting on every other champ under the sun to be balanced he's likely to never be updated. at least Rito has the decency to acknowledge there is something wrong with Morde and follow through on doing SOMETHING. At least Morde got to enjoy 15 minutes of fame at LCS. At least Morde has Riot saying they will give him a full VGU NEXT YEAR. Wukong? "Na, we can't do that. China hasn't approved yet."

Your right, his kit is a mess, but it's not SUCH a mess that a small update can't do any good. It would be worse to leave it as is and wait for the next Duskblade or Stormrazor to come along to break him again.

ThefrostyvikingDec 27, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Moon Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=7ndq4mKg,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-27T18:07:04.016+0000)

This has nothing to do with the class updates. They said they were going to update him TWO years ago and they never did. THAT'S what this has to do with. Now they are saying they won't update him cause China likes him as is even though they had him on the list for some work. If you can't settle for anything less for a VGU then that's on you. I'm not waiting for another 4 years for China to possibly be okay with the idea of maybe potentially giving him a minor VGU and honestly I don't know a lot of people who are either.

I am also certain that what riot said was that if they were updating wukong and others then they were doing it under the diver update.

Which was pushed back due to not managing to make anything good come off the prototypes, instead other classes got through and to disastrous results.

What China wants has absolutely 0 relevance here, the issue is that wukong is doing far better health-wise still than many others like ....well trynda and yi if talking champs that havent been reworked, then there is the shitlist of champs sitting at less than 45% winrate and less than 2% down to 0,5 pickrate.

To put it simply, wukong isnt as high priority as the rest because he still works better than they do, even if he is shit now or not.

Honestly, you have NO idea how long Wukong mains have been waiting now and have ZERO clue what kind of crap we have had to go through because Riot refuses to update him. I don't want to hear " you should be happy that he isn't like champ X" cause frankly, it's a poor excuse for someone who hardly plays him and is just looking for the worst examples to prove their point. What's more, you likely don't even understand yourself cause odds are you don't even play those champs either. I played morde and Seju pre rework (Both reworks in Seju's case). I can tell you Morde is healthier then he was despite him breaking as hard as he did and Seju has hardly changed when it comes to a kit that doesn't work well.

Are you joking with me?

Morde? Healthier? He literally has more bugs than before, stomps the winning solo matchups harder than before and loses the losing ones harder becoming feast and famine.

And when played bot with a favorable support pick he barely has any counterplay at all short of "never let the enemy support enable him to get near you" or you die and he starts winning the lane 2v3 even with your jungler trying to help.

Go read on Malicious metal´s posts, his conclusion is basically that both the old Morde and the new one are and were shit and need a new kit made from scratch, and he hit diamond multiple seasons with the champ. '

And Seju? Man i played pre rework as well, i even played her a lot as she was my main jungler.

She was a generalist with a massive powerbudget portion loaded into her ult sure but she was far better and healthier than she is now, while she lacked interesting gameplay she made up for by being simply solid and doing a simple job as a initiator well enough.

New kit? Twice as terrible as the old one when it comes to powerbalance, they sapped tons of power from the ult to fuel into the rest of the kit along with the passive but it ends up being broken as hell so it ends up draining the rest of her kit to complete emptiness.

The game gets updated. Champs who don't get updated rot. I would rather see him end up like Morde and Seju then end up like Yorick or Urgot where they ended up shelving them for years before they got back to work on them. He's ALREADY been waiting for years for them to begin work, if they keep waiting on every other champ under the sun to be balanced he's likely to never be updated. at least Rito has the decency to acknowledge there is something wrong with Morde and follow through on doing SOMETHING. At least Morde got to enjoy 15 minutes of fame at LCS. At least Morde has Riot saying they will give him a full VGU NEXT YEAR. Wukong? "Na, we can't do that. China hasn't approved yet."

How many updates come through each year? 4-6?

How many champs have been in a desperate need for updates until now? Far too many.

So then we have wukong, a champ that has many in EU/NA calling for reworks also has a bunch over in asia saying that he is fine.

What does this mean? He ends up far, far lower priority for a rework than a champ that both sides say need one, like Kayle/morg coming out next.

Your right, his kit is a mess, but it's not SUCH a mess that a small update can't do any good. It would be worse to leave it as is and wait for the next Duskblade or Stormrazor to come along to break him again.

Small update? You dont realize at all you do?

His issue, is the simple fact that his kit has 0 cohesiveness.

W is an assassin ability, E is for a diver, Q is for a diver, passive a tank and R is......not fitting at all, might be a skirmisher ability actually.

To even update a champ they need a direction to go, but the issue with wukong is that there is no direction to go, he has nothing even resembling a solid identity.

Lissandra was ....supposed to easy because all they needed was just replace her passive and balance the power budget from the rest of the kit, just took them quite a while to find one they liked.

Ezreal was easy as he just needed a VU and a new W which was done very quickly.

Nunu, Aatrox and akali were in the works for years.

Swain was made to wait with just a new Q because he was completely fine otherwise even if old and outdated, but he also got a completely new kit several years later.

Wukong? Biggest issue is that no one even knows where to start and people cant agree on it either, some want an assassin, some want a tank and others a diver or even a skirmisher.

Blue Moon WolfDec 27, 20181 votes

No, Rito KNOWS they want a Diver. Most players KNOW they want a Diver. You would know if you played the champ. but you don't. you play mages. what's more, is you don't even play the champs who you claim are worse then they were. I DO play those champs. I KNOW where they have been and how they changed and I KNOW the crap that went down when they were "healthy". It wasn't any better in any way. Morde suddenly became OP when players realized Health Regen was broken on him. HEALTH REGEN. And I don't even want to start on his god awful Q. FFS even his mains from back then say he's healthier now, just that he still needs work done. All you are doing is spouting off crap you've heard other people say and acting like you know what you are talking about.

Until you sit there and spent years trying to main a champ, being told he's worthless and get constant report threats BECAUSE you picked him, trying to ask for something to be done for him only to be told he isn't worth updating by EVERYONE and their damn brother then FINALLY getting the green light by Riot only for them to pull the rug out from under you by pulling a random poll from China out there ass, where the entire community suddenly goes from "yea he needs updated" to "screw you he became OP for 2 patches, Ryze needs updated again", You have NO idea how he works, what he needs, how he plays or what we have dealt with waiting for an update that will NEVER COME. Stop acting like you know the faintest about Wukong or what his mains have had to put up with all this time. We have done our waiting. By the way, Swain got his VGU 2 seasons after his Q change, not several years later. Look it up.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Swain

Wukong's been waiting double that for anything at all. cause "fair and balanced" doesn't have to apply to mages right?

ThefrostyvikingDec 27, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Moon Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=7ndq4mKg,comment-id=0000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-27T19:29:00.535+0000)

No, Rito KNOWS they want a Diver. Most players KNOW they want a Diver. You would know if you played the champ. but you don't. you play mages. what's more, is you don't even play the champs who you claim are worse then they were. I DO play those champs. I KNOW where they have been and how they changed and I KNOW the crap that went down when they were "healthy". It wasn't any better in any way. Morde suddenly became OP when players realized Health Regen was broken on him. HEALTH REGEN. And I don't even want to start on his god awful Q. FFS even his mains from back then say he's healthier now, just that he still needs work done. All you are doing is spouting off crap you've heard other people say and acting like you know what you are talking about.

How exactly do you know what Riot wants? Do you work there or chat with one of the people there?

Fact is, on these very boards people have presented a ton of rework ideas for wukong quoting exactly what is seen as his bad state, and ideas have ranged from everything to diver to assassin to tank to skirmisher or even juggernaut.

Actually the passive the OP suggested in this very thread is very juggernaut like.

Until you sit there and spent years trying to main a champ, being told he's worthless and get constant report threats BECAUSE you picked him, trying to ask for something to be done for him only to be told he isn't worth updating by EVERYONE and their damn brother then FINALLY getting the green light by Riot only for them to pull the rug out from under you by pulling a random poll from China out there ass, where the entire community suddenly goes from "yea he needs updated" to "screw you he became OP for 2 patches, Ryze needs updated again", You have NO idea how he works, what he needs, how he plays or what we have dealt with waiting for an update that will NEVER COME. Stop acting like you know the faintest about Wukong or what his mains have had to put up with all this time. We have done our waiting.

Exactly when this go down?

Because all i recall is Riot going out with a vague "if we are doing the update it´s going to be under the diver update", which never got a set date and even got cancelled later, and it was like only a few months ago that riot pulled out that poll from china from what i can tell from the wukong reddit.

And what exactly gives you the right to state that i have no idea how the champ plays? I started out in season 3, he, Irelia and quinn were my only toplaners until season 5 when i dropped him and quinn.

That damn champ hasnt changed in any way at all since then, not even a little, he still plays exactly the same except some minor powerspike changes as items have shifted and matchups changed.

Furthermore he is ridiculously simple, if looking to oneshot a squishy its W-E-Q-R, done.

Looking to trade?Either E to get in, auto-Q then run with W or walk into melee, use Q&autos, use W to avoid/waste enemy retaliation and use E when committing further.

Thats all there is to the champ, you just play around the W and enemy abilities then press either Q or E when you go in, ult.

If feeling hella cheeky and using duskblade you can go into the fog of war, E-Q the moment they are nearby, ult for knockup+more damage, W when they get out and if still alive you pop W and wait for Q to come back and no squishy survives that.

Of course his problem stats when the enemy survives that or can interrupt him because he is squshy and has no damage beyond a few combos so he does nothing after and dies instantly.

By the way, Swain got his VGU 2 seasons after his Q change, not several years later. Look it up.

Alright my bad, i thought it was 3 years but it was "only" two, my bad.

Still point is still made, swain needed far less work than wukong does.

Wukong's been waiting double that for anything at all. cause "fair and balanced" doesn't have to apply to mages right?

How exactly are mages not balanced right now? If looking at league of graphs then the top 5 midlaners are Yasuo Galio Zed Irelia and Lissandra , followed by LB who is a AP assassin.

What makes mages generally good however is the fact that even though they made for teamfights their kits are simple, cohesive and straightforward to balance, just tweak a number here and there or an item and its done for a entire season, and they still have a lot of counterplay available from something so simple as avoiding skillshots.

Unlike a certain monkey that likes to go invisible before poping out and oneshotting people before they can even realize he is there.

I´ll spell it out for it.

Wukongs entire kit is centered around his W, the ability means he has to be squishy to reward people for hitting him, it makes him slippery and elusive which makes getting away with building glass cannon easy and his ulti is basically some random ability that makes sense for neither a diver nor an assassin.

Its also what forces his passive to be kept useless, because a tanky assassin is already a disaster on the drawing board.

His E offers mobility so he cant become a powerhouse melee like Darius or Garen, especially when combined with his W its positively disgusting to play against.

What wukong needs, is at least partially new E, an entirely new W and an entirely new ult, and this is after people manage to figure out what sort of champ they want him to be.

There are two main groups from what i have read, some want a elusive trickster figure=assassin like, and others want a more "up close and bashing people with a staff" one =diver/juggernaut or even skirmisher.

But for this to happen his kit needs to change a lot, with a very, very clear idea or he will just end up exactly like Sejuani, as useful as a compass that just spins around.

Blue Moon WolfDec 27, 20181 votes

How exactly do you know what Riot wants? Do you work there or chat with one of the people there? YES! I TALKED TO REAV3 ABOUT THIS. HE EVEN SHOWED UP ON A MEDDLER POST TO TRY TO CLEAR THE AIR AFTER THAT MESS.

Actually the passive the OP suggested in this very thread is very juggernaut like.

I will agree with that, it's too loaded down the way it stands and boosts way too many stats, but it's not unadjustable and sure as hell healthier then waiting for a 5 man enemy group up to get the most out of a passive while only getting a measly 4/6/8 armor/MR 1v1. FFS, what happened to when people thought "free stats are bad for the game"?

Exactly when this go down?

For the past FEW YEARS. As I tell everyone who acts like they know what they are talking about, they'd know if they bothered to follow the news on him for the past several years which SUPRISE SUPRISE, the guy who doesn't touch him never followed. What a shock. Wukong mains have been following information on him for years cause they have been teasing us with a rework for him FOR YEARS. Before the tank update he was a possible candidate, then became a primary candidate next to Aatrox when the Diver update was coming, even the point they weren't didn't want to update his title because "why bother updating it when we are just going to update his kit and kill two birds with one stone", the cancellation of the class updates with Riot promising that the divers would be updated throughout the year, them going silent on Wukong for months before saying "we think he could use an update", THEN finally saying he was on the short list of champs to be worked on between larger works, then Reav3 bringing up the poll in China pretty much telling us that "they took him off the list cause China likes him as is" even though he has NO agency in anything Riot would care about, which would be LCS.

And you'd know this if you actualy cared about the champ, which you don't. why you are bothering trying to talk like you know the entire history of Wukong trying to get an update is beyond me. It's like me trying to say I know ANYTHING about Amumu past his mini kit update god knows when that was. I wouldn't cause I haven't been keeping tabs on Amumu news. see that search bar on the side? it's existed for years and it's been VERY easy to type a specific champs name and read up on him. Pain in the ass to get ALL this info on him again, but VERY easy to find within the past few months. You know another place you learn stuff? The reddit page. A twitch streamer talked directly to a Riot Maple about Wukong and they even MENTIONED they had a change in the works, but it got shelved to work on "more important projects". The news happens, no one hears about it cause there isn't a "League of legends news" site/ channel going over all things said by all Rioters at all times. You have to DIG for information.

Still point is still made, swain needed far less work than wukong does.

Yep, cause that's SOO why they decided to not rework him entirely OH WAIT NO THEY DID. For god sake the only things they kept were his Root and his Ult. Not even his Ult honestly as they removed the toggle in exchange for a channel with burst damage at the end. He wasn't "healthy", he was "viable", same as Wukong.

How exactly are mages not balanced right now?

It's been on the boards for AGES and keeps coming back up like a plague. People have never stopped complaining about how "there isn't enough variation on AP items" and how every AP champ needs some sort of a buff/rework. It never ends. FFS Liss and Karma were two champs that WERE on the same list Wukong was on. Only difference is Liss got her update and Karma is being worked on. Wukong popped off cause of China. And don't even MENTION LB who has gotten Reworked, reverted and now has her mains are asking for her to get another rework. It's that kind of crap that keeps Wukong from ever getting updated and the thing that I HOPE Riot will start avoiding for the next few years.

But for this to happen his kit needs to change a lot, with a very, very clear idea or he will just end up exactly like Sejuani, as useful as a compass that just spins around.

No he won't. Unlike you I've played him enough to know that a passive update would be enough to change things very well. CURRENTLY he is as useful as a compass that just spins around. It can kill a guy with it if you play it right but afterwards would be better off running for it then trying to stay and take on the other guys armed with real weapons. No, a passive change will not enough to fix him for good, but it will be enough to get him by the SAME WAY it got Swain and Aatrox by when they waited for their updates who I must repeat will end up being updated FAR SOONER then Wukong will, according to Riot and their stance with him.

There are two main groups from what i have read, some want a elusive trickster figure=assassin like, and others want a more "up close and bashing people with a staff" one =diver/juggernaut or even skirmisher.

There is not divide between people who wants him to be "an elusive trickster" and those who want him to more "up close with a staff". There is PLENTY capacity to support both and you'd SEE that if you played him, for the 3rd time. I don't know how you think you know how Wukong works but I can easily tell you he is far from tanky and VERY far from high damage if Duskblade didn't have is stupid stealth passive. He can be assassin "like" if he goes flat damage, which runs him the problem of blowing up like a goddamn water balloon if he doesn't use his decoy to escape in the confusion or GOD FORBID his Ult as an escape tool, you know, the way it wasn't made to be used? He isn't tanky enough to be a Tank in any degree as many, many, MANY Wukong players will tell you. Currently the decoy acts as a sort of buffer to allow him to regroup before engaging if you want to get risky and play like a fighter. sadly that got thrown out the window by everyone having a healing mechanic. so it's straight to the tower hugging it is for a champ who was SUPPOSED TO BE A LANE BULLY.

Someone who says "Wukong go tank" has no idea how useless he becomes because of that. meanwhile due to his assassin builds, his E's AS boost is useless and his Q's Armor pen may as well be for the next 2 hits as he will run away after that rather then stay and fight. he has parts of his kit he doesn't utilize all cause the Assassin builds yet if they were to rearrange his power a bit to be lest bursty, it would force him to use those unused parts more, making sustain more viable of an option over flat damage and rendering more sustain based builds useful. Simple change, for a champ who's major issue currently is becoming too bursty.

ThefrostyvikingDec 28, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Moon Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=7ndq4mKg,comment-id=000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-27T21:56:28.033+0000)

YES! I TALKED TO REAV3 ABOUT THIS. HE EVEN SHOWED UP ON A MEDDLER POST TO TRY TO CLEAR THE AIR AFTER THAT MESS.

They actually answered you? Not bad.

However i truly wonder if everyone over there truly wants him as a diver, some would but i can just as easily see many want him as a assassin too.

I will agree with that, it's too loaded down the way it stands and boosts way too many stats, but it's not unadjustable and sure as hell healthier then waiting for a 5 man enemy group up to get the most out of a passive while only getting a measly 4/6/8 armor/MR 1v1. FFS, what happened to when people thought "free stats are bad for the game"?

Turned out that free stats were easier to balance than true damage, sustain and other stuff that was meant to be innovative.

For the past FEW YEARS. As I tell everyone who acts like they know what they are talking about, they'd know if they bothered to follow the news on him for the past several years which SUPRISE SUPRISE, the guy who doesn't touch him never followed. What a shock. Wukong mains have been following information on him for years cause they have been teasing us with a rework for him FOR YEARS.

,.My bad meant to ask when the supposed wukong update was promised, so i will ask that instead.

Because as i wrote i have absolutely no memory of any kind of statement from riot promising a wukong update aside from a few vague "we think he might need work" or "something something diver update", which was cancelled which effectively shelved the idea of a a wukong update since he wasnt near the top of the the full team VGU list like galio/poppy/Yorick/Urgotswain/eve.

And that diver update cancellation hit like....2? 1 and a half years ago? Riot poll from china was like 5 months ago or something.'

Before the tank update he was a possible candidate, then became a primary candidate next to Aatrox when the Diver update was coming, even the point they weren't didn't want to update his title because "why bother updating it when we are just going to update his kit and kill two birds with one stone", the cancellation of the class updates with Riot promising that the divers would be updated throughout the year, them going silent on Wukong for months before saying "we think he could use an update", THEN finally saying he was on the short list of champs to be worked on between larger works, then Reav3 bringing up the poll in China pretty much telling us that "they took him off the list cause China likes him as is" even though he has NO agency in anything Riot would care about, which would be LCS.

No assassins except akali/kassa have any agency in LCS, not even Zed.

Wukong at least has 2,6% pickrate and 50% winrate in dia+, he is better than like......70 others in winrate even if his pickrate isnt high,,,,but there are a ton if champs with pickrates around that level and still far, far worse winrates.

And this, combined with him being actually well liked by at least like....half? The playerbase naturally means he will never be as high priority as those that both halves think needs work.

Yep, cause that's SOO why they decided to not rework him entirely OH WAIT NO THEY DID. For god sake the only things they kept were his Root and his Ult. Not even his Ult honestly as they removed the toggle in exchange for a channel with burst damage at the end. He wasn't "healthy", he was "viable", same as Wukong.

I meant the mini update there, all they wanted to do was make his Q a bit more rewarding when used well and easier to play around it at the same time more than a point and click.

Wukong has far more severe issue´s that prevent any such "Quickfix" being possible.

It's been on the boards for AGES and keeps coming back up like a plague. People have never stopped complaining about how "there isn't enough variation on AP items" and how every AP champ needs some sort of a buff/rework. It never ends. FFS Liss and Karma were two champs that WERE on the same list Wukong was on. Only difference is Liss got her update and Karma is being worked on. Wukong popped off cause of China. And don't even MENTION LB who has gotten Reworked, reverted and now has her mains are asking for her to get another rework. It's that kind of crap that keeps Wukong from ever getting updated and the thing that I HOPE Riot will start avoiding for the next few years.

Again, Lissandra only ever needed a new passive and then some minor work to make sure the powerbudget held together, far less work than wukong ever did.

And IMO Karma is only a bit better than Wukong, and her mains have also been asking for a VGU/mini update for ages now, which you´d know if you were active on the boards.

And the reason LB turned into such a bleeding mess was exactly the class rework she was part of, which also broke others like....well most notably IMO malzahar but also like.....5-6 others.

Just like the assassin update broke Rengar, who just like LB got a rework then got a revert and now needs another rework, along with others.

Or how the tank update broke seju into pieces.

Its exactly those shitty as hell class updates that caused tons of problems and delayed other reworks by ages.

No he won't. Unlike you I've played him enough to know that a passive update would be enough to change things very well. CURRENTLY he is as useful as a compass that just spins around. It can kill a guy with it if you play it right but afterwards would be better off running for it then trying to stay and take on the other guys armed with real weapons. No, a passive change will not enough to fix him for good, but it will be enough to get him by the SAME WAY it got Swain and Aatrox by when they waited for their updates who I must repeat will end up being updated FAR SOONER then Wukong will, according to Riot and their stance with him.

Just what part of "needs far too much work to be realistically doable" can you not comprehend?

Wukong is in a far shittier spot design wise than swain was, and Aatrox got not one but like....2 mini updates, both broke him hard as hell and we sure as hell dont need a repeat of that, ......or the result of his full VGU actually, pretty sure his mains mostly gave up on him and others picked him up.

There is not divide between people who wants him to be "an elusive trickster" and those who want him to more "up close with a staff". There is PLENTY capacity to support both and you'd SEE that if you played him, for the 3rd time. I don't know how you think you know how Wukong works but I can easily tell you he is far from tanky and VERY far from it.

You might have had a point there, if it was not for the fact that actions and results speak far louder than words.

Would you like it if Shaco was tanky as hell and had DPS capacity but less burst than now instead although he´d still pop around invisible and throw CC as he pleases?

That is pretty close to what wukong would be if he was tankier and had more DPS.

And do you actually read anything i write?

I wrote exactly that because Wukong has his W HE HAS BEEN NERFED AND KEPT FROM BEING ABLE TO GO TANKY WITH A INTENTIONALLY WEAK TANK PASSIVE to ensure its rewarding to hit him!

While everyone else got damage buffs, sustain or defensive tools wukong didnt get any, because he has his W, and because he has it he is kept squishy just like all assassins there needs to a tradeoff for his damn slippery style! Which is BEING SQUISHY AF.

Furthermore Riot clearly removed the lanebully right from divers, only ones left among the melee are the juggernauts, some like Irelia can do stuff like lvl 2 cheese but that´s about it.

Someone who says "Wukong go tank" has no idea how useless he becomes because of that. meanwhile due to his assassin builds, his E's AS boost is useless and his Q's Armor pen may as well be for the next 2 hits as he will run away after that rather then stay and fight. he has parts of his kit he doesn't utilize all cause the Assassin builds yet if they were to rearrange his power a bit to be lest bursty, it would force him to use those unused parts more, making sustain more viable of an option over flat damage and rendering more sustain based builds useful. Simple change, for a champ who's major issue currently is becoming too bursty.

Thing is, even if he was given a bit more DPS in exchange for direct damage he´d still be trash.

Because he´d still be far too damn inferior and squishy and poorly scaling compared to Darius/fiora/aatrox/Jax/Sion/camilie and whoever else.

Wukong´s kit is trash, pure and utter garbage, no minor change can make him viable toplane anymore.

Because assassins cannot be played top, so as long as his W is a key part of the kit he will never be good there.

Sustain? Helps against poke, doesnt help shit against all ins or if you are completely zoned from farm because your 1v1 is weak AF.

Thus my stance that wukong needs a VGU, a direction needs to be chosen.

Either he keeps his W and drops his ult, being remade as more of a assassin.....or a skirmisher like fiora/jax.

Or he drops the W and possibly the R and is made more like a properly mobile diver/juggernaut, fully visible but maybe not so easily stopped even if you see him like Irelia.

I seriously cant even imagine him ever being balanced and working for everyone, pros and casuals alike as long as he has both the W and R in the current game.

Blue Moon WolfDec 28, 20181 votes

Dude, you have no clue about Wukong. Hardly anyone wants him to be an Assassin (The majority of people believe he is the PROBLEM, not the solution. The few who do like him as is know they can have their favorite parts of his kit without having to Kamazee dive everything), you don't play him, you don't understand how he works, you don't understand the mains. You are so horribly uneducated about him it's sad. You don't even have the right to say his kit is trash. If you WANT to learn about him, you one trick him for a few months. Then you can tell me how he plays. until then stop pretending you understand the champ. Until then, just play your mages and stop acting like the authority on stuff YOU DON'T EVEN PLAY. We're done here.

ThefrostyvikingDec 28, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Moon Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=7ndq4mKg,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-28T18:08:11.786+0000)

Dude, you have no clue about Wukong. Hardly anyone wants him to be an Assassin (The majority of people believe he is the PROBLEM, not the solution. The few who do like him as is know they can have their favorite parts of his kit without having to Kamazee dive everything), you don't play him, you don't understand how he works, you don't understand the mains. You are so horribly uneducated about him it's sad. You don't even have the right to say his kit is trash. If you WANT to learn about him, you one trick him for a few months. Then you can tell me how he plays. until then stop pretending you understand the champ. Until then, just play your mages and stop acting like the authority on stuff YOU DON'T EVEN PLAY. We're done here.

Hardly anyone? Then why do so many advocate keeping his W and having him be more slippery?

Because those are key assassin features, not something for a diver.

Those who think he can keep those and still be made as a diver? Dont realize exactly how broken his power budget would be, Shaco has already been there, ekko as well in a different way and it was hell.

Right to call him trash?

Man anyone looking at the champ has the right, anyone who plays against him has the right.

I have 20+ champs at mastery 7, i have played since season 3.

I can very damn well call any champ i please trash, especially when i have facts backing it up.

Now be real, a melee duelist cant have invisibility, DPS and burst and tankiness + massive teamfight potential.

And wukong´s kit is beyond messy, nothing can save him quickly.

If you have any kind of argument to provide to as to how in all the worlds trading some burst from wukong to get him sustain will help him deal with getting combo´d to death instantly by darius or getting spanked to oblivion by Jax then go ahead.

Without making him broken or completely useless, because even know he becomes a problem every season at some point.

MankeyMadnessDec 24, 20181 votes

Old Poppy's passive was removed for a reason and I'm not a fan of this either. I appreciate the notion to move forward on giving him a real passive so his power budget can be drained out of EQR combos. (REMOVE Q ARMOR SHRED AND BRING BACK ITS BASE DAMAGE)

Blue Moon WolfDec 25, 20181 votes

I don't think increasing his atk damage and MS should be something to keep in there as that would only add to the Assassin playstyle (also his E on a low CD tends to do a good job keeping up with enemy champs well enough). The Armor, MR, AS and E range would be enough to make it a worthwhile passive alone and event then it should have some kind of indicator for the enemy champ to let them know his passive has been increased (E range may even be a bit much, though Q range may be a good replacement for that if that's the case). Also it should likely have a max amount so he can't just can't just build a lot of health and become a walking juggernaut.

This is a pretty good concept all that aside. There's a few things that overlap with his current kit, but those could be things taken out of those abilities which would spread out his power budget more efficiently.