Rampant blanket downvoting in Skins and Champion Concepts

Sir ArmaMalum·Oct 13, 2015·5 votes·753 views

The Concepts board is, understandably, a board that goes under the radar a lot. So I'll be honest when I say it makes sense when a champion or skin concept (mostly champion) gets smacked down after a brief trending moment at the top of the main Boards feed. It's not something that the average league player finds interesting. And that's fine.

However, there is rampant blanket downvoting happening in that Board to every post in it, new, tending, or otherwise. It's very common for me to see the Concepts Board in its entirety in the negatives. More specifically, it's also quite often to see champion concepts well under -3. The whole mechanic of votes controlling visibility should realistically make this a rare situation.

Now, on a related note there is an easy fix to this that I am confident will be appreciated on every angle. Give champion concepts their own independent board and take said hypothetical board off of the main feed. Champion concepts are largely (so far in my 3 years of experience) done as a fun and challenging exercise, so feedback from our fellow conceptors is what we're mainly looking for. They also happen to be the target for a lot of bashing from comments like "lol, tl;dr" and simply don't garner as much trending strength as the easy-to-digest skin idea posts are. And to be frank it's downright impossible to have much conversation happen when the latest concept is buried underneath yet another Joker Jinx or Chroma suggestion.

tl;dr Asshats blanket downvoting the entire concepts Board, further screwing over champion concepts in the midst of good but too many skin concept ideas.

16 Comments

Hyrum GraffOct 14, 20151 votes

As an aside, do you FEK? It's always been interesting to me, to see up and downvote counters individually.

Sir ArmaMalumOct 14, 20151 votes

I did at one point, but then I upgraded my comp and reinsatlled the OS, just haven't gotten around to getting it back on honestly.

McKeifusApr 29, 20161 votes

I understand what you're saying here, but it could also be that a majority of concepts are just not that good. They might have spent a lot of time on it, but it might not be well thought out, or interesting, or could overlap too much, or etc etc...just a thought. I would perhaps suggest taking it to somewhere like Reddit and making a new SubReddit if you would rather not experience the cold harsh reality of the larger LoL community.

ElphrihaimMay 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I understand what you're saying here, but it could also be that a majority of concepts are just not that good.

Unfortunately an irrelevant point. There are tons of (super good) ones that get bricked with excessive downvotes.

There are a lot of people that just don't want to see champion concepts, and thus downvote whenever they see them (since no longer does one need to scroll to the end of a post to downvote it).

But riot had the brilliant idea of not separating these subcategories in spite of the obvious audience dichotomy.

McKeifusMay 1, 20161 votes

Irrelevant? Do you have some kind of statistics to back that up? I think it's extremely relevant - the boards at large just maybe don't think your concepts are that good.

ElphrihaimMay 2, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Irrelevant? Do you have some kind of statistics to back that up? I think it's extremely relevant - the boards at large just maybe don't think your concepts are that good.

Let me make my point less brief so that I can be sure you understand.

"A majority of concepts are not good" is the point I find irrelevant.

The reason why I find this part irrelevant is because all concepts, regardless of their goodness, suffer this problem (commentless downvotes).

And the reason I know that this is actually a problem is because I find champion concept threads that have 4 views, made an hour ago, but are sitting at -2 or -3.

There are people that downvote champion concept threads just because they are champion concept threads.

If you browse there for a month (on chronological view-- any other view is going to "naturally" hide the issue) it's really noticible compared to something like gameplay.

Heck, even if you have it on trending or whatever, you would notice a dearth of champion concepts because the number of people who upvote such a thread is so small, while people are always enthusiastic about art and usually about skin concepts.

Now, the reason I shortened that down was because this issue was already outlined in the topic post and is readily confirmable information.

If it was the case that it was just bad concepts getting downvoted, then at least people would be reading them and there would be more comments on them.

I've seen far too many champion concepts that have -3 and 0 comments, sub-30 views.

And... that's not right, that's not players being conducive to players at all. It hurts both the champion concept group and the skin concept group to have them stuffed into the same board.

ElphrihaimMay 2, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Irrelevant? Do you have some kind of statistics to back that up?

Now I do.

The overwhelming majority of Champion Concepts have at least 3 upvotes and 5 downvotes.

(If you care to investigate this yourself you can do so rather easily with FEK.)

McKeifusMay 2, 20161 votes

That doesn't mean much. It could just mean 8 people saw it, and 5 people thought it was bad. You're not doing a great job proving your point. Having read many many champ concepts over the years, I can tell you most champion concepts have seriously problems. They are usually wish fulfillment fantasies, where the champ has access to everything in the game, and tons of damage. I think most people skim it, see how broken or overlapping the champion is, and just downvote because the response is too complex.

ElphrihaimMay 2, 20161 votes

{quoted} It could just mean 8 people saw it, and 5 people thought it was bad.

The first time a thing is posted it has 1 view (from the topic creator).

You're not doing a great job proving your point.

I mean I don't think I need to prove something that's pretty self-evident and generally agreed upon but ok

What proof do you want?

Having read many many champ concepts over the years, I can tell you most champion concepts have seriously problems.

And I can tell you the polar opposite.

Most concepts are rough, lacking some touch or "the magic spark", or possibly just something that makes everything click.

Whiiich isn't a serious problem if people actually discuss.

They are usually wish fulfillment fantasies,

I'm going to disagree and I don't think we can ever agree on this.

where the champ has access to everything in the game, and tons of damage.

To no small extent?

The former is frequently told so and then not seen again from the same poster;

and damage / cooldown values are easy to adjust if they are too overbearing (it's literally numbers on a page).

I think most people skim it,

This is part of the problem hinted at in the opening post, btw. In saying this (and the rest of this sentence) you are actually agreeing at least a little with the opening post and how it's a problem.

see how broken or overlapping the champion is, and

Then somebody should comment! If nobody says anything to something that's great NOR something that's bad, then that means nobody is investing in the concept. It means that the board is not serving its function.

just downvote because the response is too complex.

So they are being part of the problem that we're talking about would be fixed by separating the boards such that only the people who are actually willing to get invested in a concept will need to see them.

McKeifusMay 2, 20161 votes

If the concept was truly great, it would get upvotes. Period. And I have seen enough with actually positive upvotes to know that. I'm sorry that you put so much time into your concepts and they didn't meet reality well, but that's what happens when you put your creations into a public forum. The rubber meets the road, and maybe LoL isn't the game you want it to be. Try to make a champ which:

A) Matches the general theme/tense of other LoL champs B) Fits into the lore of the world already, but in a way that isn't just a "me too" latching onto another champ's lore C) Is mechanically interesting, but not excessively complex D) Isn't overpowered, aka an ADC with access to every utility ability, or a mage that is an overpowered Vlad, etc E) Use proper grammar, spelling, and a pleasing layout F) Frontload the mechanics

Most of the concepts I have seen don't follow any of these, but this is what would get you upvotes. Place the mechanics first. People care more about that than the story, for the most part. Keep your descriptions nice and short, like the abilities that already exist. Anything over a sentence or two is going to get ignored and downvoted. If someone can't immediately understand the champ's abilities, that's on you, not them. They are doing you a favor by reading your concept, you are not doing them a favor by posting the concept. You are not entitled to response posts. You are not entitled to upvotes just for putting in lots of time on a concept. You clearly want/need upvotes, so earn them by giving people something they want, not trying to force people to do what you want them to.

ElphrihaimMay 3, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If the concept was truly great, it would get upvotes. Period. And I have seen enough with actually positive upvotes to know that.

Unfortunately, while it does get upvotes, it also gets downvotes. And, frequently, I have seen more of the latter than the former case happen.

Usually, the concepts with the most votes are not even fully crafted; they are ideas or character sketches.

Comment directed to "you"

Assuming you meant this in general instead of in specific.

(Personally I don't care if people downvote my thread as long as it gets comments. Not that they get any, because of the random downvotes that get given out.)

Try to make a champ which:

In my opinion, this is the wrong approach to take in the first place. *

Most of the concepts I have seen don't follow any of these, but this is what would get you upvotes.

Most of the concepts I'm thinking of do all of these except F *. And get more than a healthy number of downvotes.

And the ones that have the most upvotes, again, tend to not even have completed kits with which to discuss their mechanics!

Place the mechanics first. People care more about that than the story, for the most part.

Yet if we view how Riot introduces and sketches champions, they are done the opposite way. Story before kit. Appearance before story (or maybe after a few lines). Maybe, sometimes, a whole thing spawns from an ability (though I can't recall any champion that was stated to be born that way, it doesn't mean it hasn't happened).

* The above paragraph is a critical component of these two lines as well.

Keep your descriptions nice and short, like the abilities that already exist.

Oh, you mean use in-game style text.

...Instead of actually giving all the information of an ability.

Which is a problem that has no good answer (give all the information : it's too much for some people /// be brief and gloss over some details : it isn't specific enough for some people).

Anything over a sentence or two is going to get ignored and downvoted.

While I can't deny that, I dare you to tell me a champion kit in two sentences. (hint: they'd both end up being run-ons, and therefore have incorrect grammar, therefore fail one of your points)

This was just snark at your phrasing. I know you meant "any [ability] over a sentence or two".

But that's also kind of completely false, once again we can turn to Riot's own kits. Most of the kits have at least one ability (and plenty have two) that simply cannot be condensed into a pair of sentences without losing too much of their content to be considered equivalent.

Like, say... Ekko. Illaoi. Bard. Even Yasuo, Zed, Braum, Rammus, Karthus, Ashe, Aatrox, Zac, Dr. Mundo, Cassiopeia, Azir, Kennen, Karma, Taric, Thresh...

All of them have at least one part of their kit that cannot be condensed to your suggested length, that is critical to their existence.

And those are just the ones I can think up off the top of my head, that can't be fnangled under "hide information about ability" components. If I was to be thinking the way I honestly think (that a champion concept's abilities should list all necessary statistics about an ability), then I would go so far as to argue that 80% of the champions have at least one ability that cannot be summarized quickly while still being accurate.

If someone can't immediately understand the champ's abilities, that's on you, not them.

Having read a lot of concepts, there are people who fail to understand an ability because of the concept-maker, and there are people who fail to understand an ability because they're not reading. (I've fallen in all four possible categories personally on different occasions,)

Also once again I ask since apparently you didn't see it

What proof do you want for me to demonstrate to you that people do downvote concepts because they are concepts?

Also since there seems to be somebody downvoting discussion: you do know that does nothing except make me think the person I am discussing with is being petty and downvoting things they disagree with since there is only one downvote on my posts, right?

McKeifusMay 3, 20161 votes

Right, because when Riot releases a champ it has been developed and polished by professional developers. It has had numerous passes and iterations on balance, kit, lore, and art by entire teams. Riot has a history you can trust, and so we're automatically invested in the champ because we know it's gonna be good or interesting. Riot doesn't make boring champs, though they might make broken ones.

Random board guy, however, has no reason for us to automatically invest in their champs. You need to hook people if you want them to read. Creating a layout that makes sense and isn't a giant wall of text will improve your chances. You can do whatever you want, but you aren't Riot and won't get the same treatment.

Keep it short, make sure it works with the game.

P.S. Downvotes really bother you, don't they? Get used to it.

ElphrihaimMay 3, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Right, because when Riot releases a champ it hasn't been developed and polished by professional developers.

Your sarcasm completely failed here on me. Not powerful enough. I read it seriously and said "wait no that was sarcasm wasn't it"

I mean, if we want to go there, I am a professional developer. And I have friends with whom I talk that could also be considered professional developers.

It has had numerous passes and iterations on balance, kit, lore, and art by entire teams.

Right. My point is that champion concepts should get discussion, so that they have an equivalent to this.

That was also the point of this thread in some portion.

Riot has a history you can trust,

:laughs:

and so we're automatically invested in the champ because we know it's gonna be good or interesting.

:laughs harder:

Riot doesn't make boring champs,

:laughs even harder:

Sorry I just disagree with those points

Let me give some examples.

Darius is a semi-asshat patriotic general from Noxus that likes to do Noxian things (kill maim crush destroy, conquer, show dominance, be tough).

Ahri is a gumiho from Ionia that does gumiho things (steal souls, run away, become human).

Aatrox is a demon of war that desires more war.

Yes, these characters have more depth to them than what I've said.

But...

If I don't care for battling, I don't find Aatrox's motiviations relatable.

If I didn't have such a huge investment in gumiho/kitsune/prankster demon mythos, I wouldn't find Ahri particularly interesting.

If I hate asshats, I hate Darius.

And yes, I may have picked unwell. However, a lot of the cast can be well-encompassed by this.

I'm not trying to say that champion concepts aren't going to fall under similar easily summarizable points, that have lores that are dissimilar to certain mythical tropes or whatnot.

Just that Riot calls these tropes and uses them pretty well but can easily be boring to people that do not click with the story.

Random board guy, however, has no reason for us to automatically invest in their champs.

Right, one more reason why Champion Concepts should be its own board: So that only the people that are interested in getting invested will need to try.

You need to hook people if you want them to read.

Yes, I, too, took a writing class too fellow individual.

Creating a layout that makes sense and isn't a giant wall of text will improve your chances.

Sure. Of course it will. This is obvious.

Keep it short, make sure it works with the game.

Also obvious.

P.S. Downvotes really bother you, don't they? Get used to it.

They don't have any relevance in this sort of thread, though. That's why I say it just makes you look petty (whether or not it's you doing it).

The votes only matter to stifle discussion or hide abysmal content and I'm pretty sure we can both agree that neither of those are happening here; hence the votes just don't matter. If I did care I would brigade with the rest of my accounts; but that'd be dumb, a waste of time, and prove that I'm really petty (which I'm not, I'm spiteful).

You know what ELSE doesn't have much relevance in this thread?

#How to make a Champion Concept.

WHICH IS ALL YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT.

For the third time, I ask the simple question:

#WHAT PROOF DO YOU WANT FOR ME TO DEMONSTRATE TO YOU THAT CONCEPTS REGARDLESS OF QUALITY GET DOWNVOTES?

ElphrihaimMay 9, 20161 votes

{quoted} [there was a comment here]

Based on the singular downvote on my reply, I ascertain you've read it.

And, I can't help but notice you didn't answer the question.

So I'm going to ask again.

What proof are you asking for to demonstrate that concepts, generally/generically, get downvotes, independent of their quality?

And I mean if you don't have an answer to that question I'd really like to ask you about how my proof was inadequate. I've long been trying to get the art of giving people what they want, and I definitely failed for you.

And if you don't care to answer that, then can I ask why you launched into champion concepting tips? I don't see the correlation.

GaleWinUnleashedMay 1, 20161 votes

I know I had fun making my gravity-themed champion concept about a year ago. Had him coming from the Void, but now that Aurelion Sol is out, maybe it makes more sense to make him a cosmic being of some kind.

DesolationKaizerMay 26, 20161 votes

Don't know how I didn't see this thread before. The random downvoting is indeed a common thing. I pleasantly surprised to see my concept with 4 upvotes rather quickly. In 4-5 hours, it had dropped down to -2. Only responses I got were two people that positively replied and one gave extensive criticism. Obvious that the other downvotes were most likely done just for the hell of it.