Currently everything about gameplay is lumped under G&B, but that board is filled with complaints, any actually gameplay discussion gets buried fast. Tips & Tricks is nice, but it focuses mainly on people asking for help instead of in-depth gameplay discussions. I am not sure how popular this board will be, but I feel like a place that people post calculations and discuss gameplay without focusing on whether it's "broken" or "overpowered" would be nice.
Sir ArmaMalum2 votesHonestly I think separating the current Tips & Tricks into a S&A (your suggestion) and a New Player Board (something that's been asked for multiple times) to better clarify what's going on where would be nice. However I am a bit worried about the inevitable overlap of the 'Balance' portion of G&A with a S&A Board. a.k.a. people coming to 'analyze' a champion by saying "[FotM champ] is OP and need to be nerfed because I lost to them" and getting support, thereby destroying the ideal mindset of the proposed S&A Board.
Not saying it's impossible or anything, just a concern of mine.
Ariaflux2 votesI like that suggestion, but I can sort of understand why Riot does not want to name it "New Player Board" as it's does not fit in with the naming convention of boards. Boards are currently named for their content, but the requested board is named after the audience. Tips & Tricks also offer a platform for lesser informed veterans to ask simple questions about gameplay without feeling that they don't belong there. However, I do think it would be highly useful for new players to have a board dedicated to them with useful resources stickied.
That's a very valid concern. I agonized over what to call it so that it can differentiate itself from G&B as much as possible. I wanted to call it Strategy & Calculations, but that's specific to a fault, and doesn't cover the whole spectrum of things that can be discussed.
Sir ArmaMalum2 votesFair points.
Honestly what about just having it as "Strategy"? I realize that doesn't include as much you'd probably like but 'Balance' has kind of already snagged most of the ground for mathcrafting atm.
The best case scenario overall would be G&B having it's jurisdiction changed, but we would have to brainstorm a way to separate out the proper analysis posts from the general balance complaints, which is the real stickler.
Daen2 votesThis is a bit complex, in part because it seems that we all have some subtle biases. Here's an example from your comment:
separate out the proper analysis posts from the general balance complaints
It can be argued that analysis is basically just the top effort version of general balance complaints; do you feel that analysis is a fundamentally different type of content, or rather an application of higher level logic and knowledge to the same content?
Sir ArmaMalum1 votesI agree that the small individual interpretation is one of the biggest issues with categorical considerations.
Personally I consider analysis as a different kind of content as it's (ideally but not practically) a description of current quantitatives whereas general complaints (while still important to gauge opinion) is a bundle of personal experiences and qualitatives. Both can a little of the other but their core is different.
Daen1 votesPersonally I consider analysis as a different kind of content as it's (ideally but not practically) a description of current quantitatives whereas general complaints (while still important to gauge opinion) is a bundle of personal experiences and qualitatives
Could you potentially give some thread examples of topics that would belong in one but not the other?
Sir ArmaMalum1 votesIt's a bit tough to find examples of what I deem as actual analysis because of the whole 'no board for it so no posts for it' but we've constantly run into :P but I'll give it a shot for ones that are close:
http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/J0d7jKkE-adc-build-lucian-in-tank-meta http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/3Eb21AVF-you-dont-need-to-win-your-lane-league-basics
These both fulfill my personal requirements of
As for general complaints, just look in G&B, all of it. :P
Ariaflux1 votesIt can be argued that analysis is basically just the top effort version of general balance complaints; do you feel that analysis is a fundamentally different type of content, or rather an application of higher level logic and knowledge to the same content?
Actually I do feel that it can be brought into many more directions than purely balance discussion.
For example, I had been trying to work out the optimal ADC for end game vs both high armor and low armor opponents. It is interesting to explore different combination of items, and there could be surprising results waiting for us to discover. This can be further extrapolated into optimal builds at all stages of the game, and for more roles than just ADCs etc.
It might be not be different from the theorycrafting that goes on in a few of the balance threads (e.g. calculations that Lee Sin is OP), but personally I feel that the main difference is the mindset adopted in the approach to these calculations (i.e. calculations not used to argue whether someone is OP, but done for the sake of knowledge), which admittedly, would be quite impossible to keep away even on the new suggested board.
For example, I would be really interested in finding out if the new BC is worth using on Ashe, how much damage is she giving up for the CDR, AoE armor shred and Rage passive, which item would be the best to replace if it is indeed good on her.
Daen4 votes-snip-
From this and everything else I've seen in this thread, it seems like the most organic split would likely be between gameplay and balance. The following replacement strategy might have minimal overlap.
From:
Tips & Tricks - All advice, guides, strategy, new player experience Gameplay & Balance - All gameplay discussion, balance discussion, criticism, basically everything involving the game
To:
Guides & Strategy - All guides and strategy for veteran players New Player Hub - All resources for new players Balance & Design - Discussions about balance, design critique, etc.
Something important to note, the overarching idea of "gameplay" is completely removed in this replacement. It has been split into its constituent parts:
Basically, I absolutely agree that balance needs to be split from discussion. I think this is one of the more natural ways of doing so, because posting in Guides & Strategy about balance specifically doesn't fit. Analyses of why x is OP or how y can improve the experience of z content fits in Balance & Design and specifically doesn't fit in Guides & Strategy, as well.
Ariaflux1 votesWow, I really like this new format! You're right, one of the first thing I thought of is that G&B should really be split into 2 different boards. There's nothing else I can add to it except that I really hope this can happen!
However, I'm curious, what's wrong with Story & Art?
Daen1 votesWow, I really like this new format! You're right, one of the first thing I thought of is that G&B should really be split into 2 different boards. There's nothing else I can add to it except that I really hope this can happen!
I appreciate that! I hope so too, although it has historically taken an extremely long time for board changes to happen unless Riot comes up with it first.
Changing GD to General Discussion took a solid six months of consistent community feedback before Riot eventually decided to do it, and adding an s to the end of "Skins & Champion Concepts" took a few months as well.
However, I'm curious, what's wrong with Story & Art?
Story (lore, etc.) and Art (visuals) are fundamentally different concepts with fundamentally different demographics. They should not be on the same board, and the fact all discussion regarding skins (visuals) is in a different board entirely makes it even more strange.
This might not necessarily be related, but if I were to rework the Boards layout it would be something like the following change.
From:
Boards Feedback Esports Community Creations Memes & Games Miscellaneous Announcements Maps & Modes Gameplay & Balance Skins & Champion Concepts Story & Art Report a Bug Tips & Tricks Team Recruitment Sound & Music League Videos Fantasy LCS General Discussion
To:
Announcements Boards Feedback Guides & Strategy Balance & Design Player Behavior Maps & Modes PBE.Net Discussion Art & Skins Lore Discussion Sound & Music New Player Hub eSports Fantasy LCS Community Creations Content Concepts League Videos Team Recruitment Miscellaneous General Discussion Memes & Games Report a Bug
Ariaflux1 votesStory (lore, etc.) and Art (visuals) are fundamentally different concepts with fundamentally different demographics. They should not be on the same board, and the fact all discussion regarding skins (visuals) is in a different board entirely makes it even more strange.
Now that you've mentioned it, yeah it's pretty weird. I remember people requesting to separate Skins & Champion Concepts too as Skin Concepts are overshadowing Champion ones. I guess Riot had a different idea of how people would approach these topics and didn't want to split the community up too much (or maybe their teams are divided according to these categories so it's easier for them to check for relevant post?).
Hyrum Graff1 votesStory (lore, etc.) and Art (visuals) are fundamentally different concepts with fundamentally different demographics. They should not be on the same board, and the fact all discussion regarding skins (visuals) is in a different board entirely makes it even more strange.
Honestly, it feels strange to me to have anywhere dedicated to Art at all. Here are different parts of art:
Visuals => Gameplay/Design Skins/Splash art => Skins Stylistic Choices => Lore -- they're both about creating player immersion. Fan Art => Community Creations
If you look at Story & Art right now, aside from being dead, all of the threads in the last couple of days fit in to one of these categories or another.
Elite4Runner1 votesI agree with this. I had a thread that I posted requesting that Riot add a post game stat to identify the amount of time a champion was 'in-combat' but I don't think it got any attention. I think idea would have applied very nicely in your category.