backhanded reporting

scazzman·Jul 22, 2017·2 votes·721 views

Imo very few people are using the report system as it is actually intended, even if they are reporting "validly" instead of using the report button as a tool to help riot remove negativity, the vast majority of the people doing the reporting are either flamebaiters who are trolling by using passive aggressive jabbing, and/or in game griefing to get people to tilt themselves into saying something reportable just for shits and giggles. or people who chuck reports at people if they have a poor score, hoping they get banned and therefore won't be on their team. the reports just stick because usually the person said something that could be percieved as negative

a few people use the report system as intended, but it's mostly just people being spiteful or using the report system as a griefing tool

i feel like riot needs to acknowledge how badly reports are being abused

35 Comments

Deep Terror NamiJul 22, 201711 votes

You've been saying this for what, at least a year? Just read the chat logs people give on this board; instead of muting and playing the game they are insulting and attacking people. The report system is working fine and reports are not abusable. Accusing people of baiting you doesn't mean you get a pass to flame.

scazzmanJul 22, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ptv5QA1s,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-07-22T04:49:04.635+0000)

You've been saying this for what, at least a year? Just read the chat logs people give on this board; instead of muting and playing the game they are insulting and attacking people. The report system is working fine and reports are not abusable. Accusing people of baiting you doesn't mean you get a pass to flame.

i never once said it was okay to flame. im merely saying how most people who are reporting it are doing it for selfish reasons

please behave like an arbiter and avoid using personal attacks please.

Deep Terror NamiJul 22, 20174 votes

I didn't say you said it was ok to flame, I apologize for the misunderstanding;

Accusing people of baiting you doesn't mean you get a pass to flame.

This is a general statement, it is not about you.

scazzmanJul 22, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ptv5QA1s,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-22T04:55:24.931+0000)

I didn't say you said it was ok to flame, I apologize for the misunderstanding;

This is a general statement, it is not about you.

okay, fair enough,

but the focus on this post wasnt whether or not retaliation is okay, but how "spite reports" are undermining the original goal of the player behavior system.

people arent reporting to help better the league community, they're doing it either to get back at someone, or they are doing it to troll, which creates more negativity.

and yes. i would consider reporting with ulterior motives "abusing the system"

Deep Terror NamiJul 22, 20174 votes

I'm not seeing anyone being unfairly punished, so it stands to reason that for whatever reasons reports are being used, punishment given for the behavior is still appropriate.

Are you saying that if the reason for an accurate report was spiteful, that the report should not be counted? How would this reasoning be determined? Wouldn't letting them off simply allow that toxic behavior to continue, and be a problem?

SuicideAllJul 22, 20171 votes

Want to hear an Elvis story?

Elvis was once at a hotel. He was standing in an elevator with guards on the outside. There were ladies there to see Elvis. Elvis kept motioning for the ladies to join him in the elevator. The guards kept pushing the ladies back. Eventually, the guards removed the ladies from the hotel.

Sure, the ladies should have known better. Elvis is still an ass hole and shouldn't have encouraged them.

scazzmanJul 22, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ptv5QA1s,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-22T05:12:30.615+0000)

I'm not seeing anyone being unfairly punished, so it stands to reason that for whatever reasons reports are being used, punishment given for the behavior is still appropriate.

Are you saying that if the reason for an accurate report was spiteful, that the report should not be counted? How would this reasoning be determined? Wouldn't letting them off simply allow that toxic behavior to continue, and be a problem?

im not necessarily saying they shouldnt be counted. but perhaps punish people more severely if they are deliberately trying to get other players banned, and re implement report weight, and make it so people who report frivolous offenses repeatedly are flagged as "tattletales" by the system, and their reports against "minor" offenses are lessened.

basically "don't call 911 because your neighbor's dog is too loud"

Deep Terror NamiJul 22, 20173 votes

The vast majority of toxicity is not people trying to bait others, it's just regular people frustrated with the game.

make it so people who report frivolous offenses repeatedly are flagged as "tattletales" by the system

This is absolute nonsense. Players should not be punished and dissuaded from reporting negative behavior. All your suggestions here are methods of allowing toxicity to go unpunished for arbitrary reasons.

scazzmanJul 22, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ptv5QA1s,comment-id=0000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-07-22T07:09:26.025+0000)

The vast majority of toxicity is not people trying to bait others, it's just regular people frustrated with the game.

i never said they were, but we cant deny the fact that flamebaiting DOES exist and it is a problem

This is absolute nonsense. Players should not be punished and dissuaded from reporting negative behavior. All your suggestions here are methods of allowing toxicity to go unpunished for arbitrary reasons.

i never said toxicity should go unpunished, but players SHOULD be dissuaded from reporting frivolously, even if its something as simple as putting a cap on the number of reports a person can send in a day.

or are you one of those people who sues mcdonalds because they messed up your order

Deep Terror NamiJul 22, 20171 votes

or are you one of those people who sues mcdonalds because they messed up your order

Really?

i never said toxicity should go unpunished

If you are making players scared to report behavior they find is a problem, that is exactly what is going to happen. This is why there is no report weight anymore; their personal reasons (which cannot possibly be determined) are irrelevant to whether the behavior should have consequences or not.

scazzmanJul 22, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ptv5QA1s,comment-id=000000000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-22T08:43:43.403+0000)

Really?

If you are making players scared to report behavior they find is a problem, that is exactly what is going to happen. This is why there is no report weight anymore; their personal reasons (which cannot possibly be determined) are irrelevant to whether the behavior should have consequences or not.

You seem to think the focus is on the person being reported, not on the person doing the reporting.

And im not saying people should be "scared" to report, im saying that people should take reporting more seriously. Maybe if people only got a certain number of reports per day, Like if you're reporting more then 10 people every day. You're either deliberately flamebaiting. Or you are reporting for things you shouldn't be

Shaco hit it right on the head. Currently there is nothing stopping me from going into a game. Typing /mute all, and indiscriminately reporting all 9 players for neg att, verbal abuse every game And SOME of them will probably stick.

TrulyBlandJul 22, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Like if you're reporting more then 10 people every day. You're either deliberately flamebaiting. Or you are reporting for things you shouldn't be

Or you simply were extremely unlucky. Or maybe you simply have higher standards than most people.

You are exaggerating the problem to justify an oversimplified solution.

Currently there is nothing stopping me from going into a game. Typing /mute all, and indiscriminately reporting all 9 players for neg att, verbal abuse every game And SOME of them will probably stick.

Which is not the flame-baiting that you keep complaining about. This is really just random noise that obviously sometimes will correlate with "proper" reporting. If some of them will stick, that means that they were justified according to the review of the chat itself.

The only scenario in which this would be bad is when the people that this person actually addresses do not find it report-worthy. But here's the thing: The system punishes what most people agree to be punish-worthy, so this scenario will pretty much by definition not happen frequently; especially since most people don't actually report 9 players every game.

Your entire argument keeps revolving around these "what if" scenarios... well, here's the situation: IF they become a problem, Riot will have to adjust their system. But if you can't actually provide some kind of support as for why these situtations are a problem right now, there's no need to adjust the system in ways that will have negative side effects.

ModUlanopoJul 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

But here's the thing: The system punishes what most people agree to be punish-worthy, so this scenario will pretty much by definition not happen frequently; especially since most people don't actually report 9 players every game.

Pretty much this.

scazzmanJul 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Pretty much this.

except people reporting for low level negativity out of spite can skew what the system defines as "punishable"

ModUlanopoJul 22, 20173 votes

{quoted}

except people reporting for low level negativity out of spite can skew what the system defines as "punishable"

Hardly. That would require millions of people being highly consistent in reporting this way. We have no evidence of this. Punishment rates have remained largely unchanged for years.

We also know from analysis of the Tribunal data that the community was already very consistent in what they would and would not tolerate. While the average player was about 6-8% more strict than Riot would have been if they had simply fallen back on their internal guidelines, they were not significantly inclined to punish petty behavior of the type you describe.

scazzmanJul 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Hardly. That would require millions of people being highly consistent in reporting this way. We have no evidence of this. Punishment rates have remained largely unchanged for years.

We also know from analysis of the Tribunal data that the community was already very consistent in what they would and would not tolerate. While the average player was about 6-8% more strict than Riot would have been if they had simply fallen back on their internal guidelines, they were not significantly inclined to punish petty behavior of the type you describe.

Except people ARE being chat restricted or even banned for petty offenses,

"You're bad" should NEVER result in a punishment

ModUlanopoJul 22, 20173 votes

{quoted}

i never said toxicity should go unpunished, but players SHOULD be dissuaded from reporting frivolously, even if its something as simple as putting a cap on the number of reports a person can send in a day.

This feels like a solution in search of a problem, as "frivolously" is a matter of opinion. You also haven't demonstrated how "frivolous" reports have any meaningful impact on the community.

SecondAirbaneJul 22, 20171 votes

dont worry he personally attacks me all the time nothing new here

Deep Terror NamiJul 22, 20173 votes

Care to back that up in any tangible way of evidence?

SecondAirbaneJul 22, 20171 votes

i mean it sure seems like it you're the only person thats been removing my posts note i said the ONLY person

you block me cause i get banned for inting :/ its honestly as if you're stalking my posts

Deep Terror NamiJul 22, 20174 votes

you're the only person thats been removing my posts

A brief review of your removal history shows that is a lie.

you block me cause i offend you

I block people that I don't want friend requests from.

its honestly as if you're stalking my posts

You realize one of my roles is a moderator on this board, yes? As the most active Arbiter literally anyone can claim that and randomly point to posts where I've been on PB. Besides, you just approached me, not the other way around :3

How about that proof?

SecondAirbaneJul 22, 20171 votes

and you realize 1 of my roles in this game is roaming every single player behavior thread right

i've seen you countless times commenting yet i dont reply cause i have nothing to say also the last 5 times you were the only 1 that removed my posts the 6th was automated

ModUlanopoJul 22, 20172 votes

{quoted}

i mean it sure seems like it you're the only person thats been removing my posts note i said the ONLY person

This is simply false. We can't discuss specifics here, but you're always welcome to come to the Discord server and we can show you the records.

you block me cause i get banned for inting :/ its honestly as if you're stalking my posts

When posts get reported, we have to address them. DTN has simply been the person working on the queue when yours came in.

Deep Terror NamiJul 22, 20171 votes

you block me cause i get banned for inting :/

Hmm that edit.

ModUlanopoJul 22, 20176 votes

{quoted}

i feel like riot needs to acknowledge how badly reports are being abused

1 report = 1 review means that it's _impossible _ to abuse a report. The IFS simply ignores reviews that don't reveal toxicity.

scazzmanJul 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

1 report = 1 review means that it's _impossible _ to abuse a report. The IFS simply ignores reviews that don't reveal toxicity.

what i mean by "abusing" the report system, is people who are reporting accurately, however they are either deliberately flamebaiting, or they are just reporting because they are being spiteful.

ever watch the cartoon recess? the people im talking about are the randalls of the world

TheViper7911Jul 22, 20173 votes

{quoted}

what i mean by "abusing" the report system, is people who are reporting accurately, however they are either deliberately flamebaiting, or they are just reporting because they are being spiteful.

ever watch the cartoon recess? the people im talking about are the randalls of the world

Dont take the bait? Dont break the rules? Problem solved.

ModUlanopoJul 22, 20172 votes

{quoted}

what i mean by "abusing" the report system, is people who are reporting accurately, however they are either deliberately flamebaiting,

That would end badly for them, as the system would catch them being toxic.

or they are just reporting because they are being spiteful.

As long as there aren't a significant number of false positives among people they report, this isn't a concern. The IFS cares not about your motives when you report; it only cares about what it finds (or doesn't find).

ever watch the cartoon recess? the people im talking about are the randalls of the world

I'm a bit too old for Recess.

http://i.imgur.com/jCubEPQ.jpg[/img]

Imperial PandaaJul 22, 20171 votes

So Randall from Recess was basically the class snitch. Any time someone did something wrong he would go tell Mrs. Finster. Well, sometimes the kids were behaving and their was nothing to report. So Randall would manipulate kids to do something they shouldn't do, just so he could go tell. He loved getting praise from Mrs. Finster (sp? on Finster's name)

Unreformed ShacoJul 22, 20172 votes

{quoted}

1 report = 1 review means that it's _impossible _ to abuse a report. The IFS simply ignores reviews that don't reveal toxicity.

So just spam reports on every single player and let the IFS cleanse all toxicity.

OR he is pointing out that toxic people reporting other toxic people is a bit hypocritical and not the intended use of the system.

He is just pointing out that instead of "I think your behavior is unfit for the community so I will report you" it is now a matter of "You pissed me off or fed so I will report you whether you were rude or not"

It's like constantly reporting the local creep to the police in the hopes he is doing something wrong, just so he goes to jail.

scazzmanJul 22, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Unreformed Shaco,realm=OCE,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ptv5QA1s,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2017-07-22T06:37:42.139+0000)

So just spam reports on every single player and let the IFS cleanse all toxicity.

OR he is pointing out that toxic people reporting other toxic people is a bit hypocritical and not the intended use of the system.

He is just pointing out that instead of "I think your behavior is unfit for the community so I will report you" it is now a matter of "You pissed me off or fed so I will report you whether you were rude or not"

It's like constantly reporting the local creep to the police in the hopes he is doing something wrong, just so he goes to jail.

THANK YOU!

ModUlanopoJul 22, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Unreformed Shaco,realm=OCE,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ptv5QA1s,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2017-07-22T06:37:42.139+0000)

So just spam reports on every single player and let the IFS cleanse all toxicity.

You say that like it's a bad thing...

OR he is pointing out that toxic people reporting other toxic people is a bit hypocritical and not the intended use of the system.

The intent behind the report remains irrelevant to the process or the outcome, so it can be safely ignored.

He is just pointing out that instead of "I think your behavior is unfit for the community so I will report you" it is now a matter of "You pissed me off or fed so I will report you whether you were rude or not"

Meh. Even putting aside the fact the types of reports you describe don't go anywhere, this is an assumption you and the OP make based on your biased view of reporting. You can't speak with any authority about what motivates people to file a report.

Interestingly enough, the IFS is said to work in much the same way as the guidelines we Arbiters use with regard to volunteer moderation. Spiteful reports don't result in actions against an account and there exists a simple, effective avenue to appeal a false positive.

BettnachlegerJul 22, 20174 votes

Source? Or is this again some "I feel like" shit?

DrCyanideJul 22, 20171 votes

i feel like riot needs to acknowledge how badly reports are being abused

I don't think it's being abused nearly as much as you seem to think it is. At most I would guess 5% (1 person every 2 games) is baiting or spamming reports, I think it's more realistic to guess 1% to 3%.

Have you taken any notes about how often you think this happens in your own games?