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Riot you need to add some human influence to your report system for intentional feeders

General Esdeath ··11 votes·1,692 views

Because the whole "it's just a bad game" excuse really doesn't work.

This was what I dealt with in my latest game

https://i.imgur.com/mPkijrS.png

Now, before you jump onto the "bad game train:, let's look at his match history and his pre-game lobby behavior. We said "you have tp" because he didn't have heal. He spoke in champ select, but said nothing on this. OK maybe he's going off meta? Game starts, he doesn't leash, he runs into the lane and our bot lane suffers a death. Leona said she's going to support Ugrot top (me) and Varus starts flaming, calling her all sorts of rude things (obviously trying to bait Leona into using vulgar language to get her banned), so when I tell Leona "Don't flame him, just ignore him" he begins flaming me. We lost, but we almost won, he just kept running down lanes and using his tp to the enemy base and dying.

Now let's look at his match history.

https://i.imgur.com/x6WCt1h.png

Hmm...all negative, all as Varus adc, all with ghost tp...now, let's not beat around the bush and pretend this is a bad player. A new player wouldn't start the game with :) and begin calling people "fat nerds in their mothers basement" when someone decides to play a non-meta strategy.

Riot, please add some live human judgment on cases like this. When the system picks up CONSTANT negative scores and deaths in the 10s, nearing 20s, let it trigger something for a person to watch it. I'll volunteer for it. I'm sure plenty would. We don't have to fear a tribunal 2.0, we can improve it to make it actually good! Don't try to tempt people with rewards, just leave it for people who want to make the community better.

I can hear it now, "but it would take too long!"

Look, I'd rather this person, or anyone who trolls, be banned 2 months later rather than never at all, because right now the system is banning few people because it just says "Oh this guy isn't inting, he's just really shit at the game. Nothing to see here!".

EDIT: Just found something I wanted to added before but couldn't find. The system works as I described, and the solid evidence is this YouTube channel of a guy running down mid in hours of games on different servers, without being banned. The system takes so long to ban an account that was power farmed via botting that just runs down mid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZn2frvG5MU

77 Comments

Bijeesny7 votes

Don't bother trying to get some1 to review games with int feeders, Riot is mentally stuck thinking their system is working, they will just say 'No matter how much some1 is ruining the game for you, if you start flaming him, ure harassing him and ruining the game for others just as bad.' And since he's avoiding trigger words he won't be banned, but you wil, if you flame the troll that is.

SparklingLama5 votes

Basically. I dont know how riot still Q stupid idiots into their system. start putting inters with inters and people that actually want to play the game can get matched.

Shitty garbage system riot doesnt give two fucks about. Useless losers that are over paid and do minimum work.

AeroWaffle7 votes

Do you have a suggestion that will actually make the system better and not worse?

SparklingLama2 votes

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

AeroWaffle6 votes

I'll take that as a, "no" I suppose.

Bijeesny2 votes

{quoted}

Basically. I dont know how riot still Q stupid idiots into their system. start putting inters with inters and people that actually want to play the game can get matched.

Shitty garbage system riot doesnt give two fucks about. Useless losers that are over paid and do minimum work.

Dont forget that rioters like Ghostcrawler dont even play the game and he's fucking LEAD GAME DESIGNER

SparklingLama1 votes

Typical Riot team. No idea about the game but know how to fuck it up every patch.

The Cream Reaper6 votes

i like how you're blaming player behaviour on rioters who don't deal with that aspect of the game

it's like walking into a bank and blaming the cashier for the fact that the exchange rate went up

SparklingLama1 votes

Cool story. Must love suckling their sick a lot eh? Also pretty shitty example to use kid. Nice try though.

RallerenP3 votes

Why wouldn't Ghostcrawler play the game? Why would you think that even?

Bijeesny1 votes

{quoted}

Why wouldn't Ghostcrawler play the game? Why would you think that even?

I saw a clip of him saying that he and others from his department spends more time playing pubg and overwatch rather than playing LoL He mentioned that most of people from balance team are silvers and golds Keep in mind I don't think they shouldn't play other games, but if the state of the game depends on your decisions regarding gameplay/punishemnt system I think you should spend more time into learning the game, so you can have deeper knowledge on how certain changes could affect the game Just like other jobs- if you dont know how to do your job nor you want to learn how to do it, you get fired

AeroWaffle2 votes

"spends more time playing pubg and overwatch" is very different than, " rioters like Ghostcrawler dont even play the game".

KVbqbFsC8e6 votes

Very solid post about a problem this board loves to pretend doesn't exist.

AeroWaffle7 votes

I doubt people are unaware of the problem. It's just not something that's easily solvable while making sure that no one is banned for simply being bad at the game.

KVbqbFsC8e3 votes

I'm sure some people do, but there are alot of people on this board who vastly overestimate the effectiveness of Riots system when it comes to anything outside of chat.

AeroWaffle4 votes

I have yet to see someone claim that the intentional feeding system is even remotely close to perfect.

Just because there are people (like myself) that tend to shoot down certain suggestions to improve the system doesn't mean that I overestimate the effectiveness. It means that they don't think those specific suggestions will actually help.

General Esdeath 1 votes

I mean I think my solution (which is basically just tribunal without rewards and only focusing on int/troll reports) is a good one. Not perfect, but neither is the current report system but we're keeping that up.

Anyone spectating this and reading chat can tell the Varus is trying to bait ban, he plays nice but once I tell Leona to stop flaming (and she stops) he begins calling us fat nerds and other insults.

I could (and have) seen bad games. Hell one game I went 22.5 on Kat and then another game I went 0/4 on Kat. That's a bad game. But if I was running down the lane walking into melee range of the Xin as Varus after flaming my team for thinking I'm a troll? Yeah that's not a bad game.

AeroWaffle2 votes

Sorry, but I don't think it is a good solution. You say that, "I'd rather this person, or anyone who trolls, be banned 2 months later rather than never at all", but your solution has a time-frame worse than that. It's not like those cases will simply stop building up, it will just keep on increasing and increasing. It wouldn't take long for bans to arrive far after someone just quits on their own most of the time.

Taking a long time to punish someone with much more certainty carries more problems than just the time. As I pointed out here;

{quoted}

That can backfire so very easily.

Take the two most common types of intentionally feeding;

The type of player that is trolling and is going to continue to troll until they get bored.

And the type of player that intentionally fed in a fit of rage for one reason or another.

With the first, it's more likely that they're going to get bored long before 2 months pass along with the ban being only a small deterrent since they can just create a new account.

With the second, if they realize that they are likely to get banned two months down the line for their single instance of feeding, they're much more likely to end up just using the account to troll for that amount of time. Aka, "I'm going to get banned anyway, might as well just troll".

A punishment needs to be handed out as quickly as possible after the poor behavior. The longer the time between the punishment and the action that deserves the punishment the less effective the lesson and the more likely people are to go on trolling sprees once they think the account will be banned.

People are banned for intentional feeding with the automated system. It's certainly far from perfect, but no automatic system is going to be close to perfect while making sure to avoid banning players that are just bad at the game.

General Esdeath 1 votes

I'm not saying it will be 2 months, with the amount of people we have in the community we can easily cut that down to a much shorter time.

AeroWaffle2 votes

No, we wouldn't.

{quoted}

Previously, the Tribunal was a system that gave all players the power to vote on an individuals' case. But even with an IP reward there weren't nearly enough volunteers to handle the huge amount of reports flying in. And these were just with chat logs and scores which took around ~5 min to look over.

You're expecting players to watch a video that will take anywhere from 10 to 40 min and restrict the volunteers to only Gold+ players. No. That'll come nowhere close to the necessary people to actually make it work.

In your suggestion, although you're not limiting it to just gold players, you're saying that there wont be any rewards. Which I think will cut down on the volunteers much more than limiting to gold+ players.

The previous system gave out rewards, only took about 5 min per case, and still fell hopelessly behind.

General Esdeath 1 votes

The community was also much smaller. I see an intentional feeder one in every 50+ games, meaning for every 1 inter, there's over 300 players who would gladly report them. The rewards were problematic because people would just hit "punish" on cases for rewards and then leave.

AeroWaffle1 votes

You may see an actual intentional feeder one in every 50+ games, but that's not the only people that are reported for intentionally feeding.

You'll get the players that intentionally fed because they snapped in a game. Not because the only purpose in their account is to intentionally feed.

There are a fair amount of people that use "intentional feeding" report because they are extremely salty and want to blame the person who did poorly on their team. Even if it wasn't intentional.

The community being larger now not only increases the number of possible volunteers, but also the number of incoming reports.

General Esdeath 1 votes

I understand that. Any intentional feeding is punishable, not just those made for inting.

AeroWaffle1 votes

So you still have the problem that no amount of volunteer force would be able to handle the number of reports flowing in.

General Esdeath 1 votes

Which can easily be fixed by only sending reports by both teams to the volunteers.

AeroWaffle1 votes

What do you mean? Do you mean that only players that were reported by both teammates and enemies would appear to be judged? That would leave a ton of players that intentionally fed unopposed and still result in quite a few innocent people being sent to the trial. Enemy players only see things from their perspective and from the perspective of a single game.

I don't think you're grasping how many people play this game and how many people would take time out of their lives to moderate the community for zero reward.

SparklingLama2 votes

No they are a aware. Riot really doesn't give two shit about feeders. I get one in every other ranked game and it just seems to be an issue that riot says "fuck you, its not us playing". Greedy corporate losers that wants to make over priced skins then put out shitty patches that never fix issues.

The sheep here will follow Riot till the end and Riot will blanket them. Feeders will roam free and nothing will be done.

The Cream Reaper5 votes

if you have a way to distinguish inters and feeders that is anything other than random employees screening through millions of daily reports, feel free to aproach Tantram about it. otherwise you're just biching for the sake of biching

and calling people who don't agree with you sheep, won't change that

AeroWaffle3 votes

Look, I'd rather this person, or anyone who trolls, be banned 2 months later rather than never at all, because right now the system is banning few people because it just says "Oh this guy isn't inting, he's just really shit at the game. Nothing to see here!".

But if it were something that only gets caught 2 months down the line, you would still be here complaining about the situation.

Bijeesny3 votes

{quoted}

But if it were something that only gets caught 2 months down the line, you would still be here complaining about the situation.

Just by knowing inter WILL be banned eventually players would be more calm when it comes to stuff like this

AeroWaffle3 votes

That can backfire so very easily.

Take the two most common types of intentionally feeding;

The type of player that is trolling and is going to continue to troll until they get bored.

And the type of player that intentionally fed in a fit of rage for one reason or another.

With the first, it's more likely that they're going to get bored long before 2 months pass along with the ban being only a small deterrent since they can just create a new account.

With the second, if they realize that they are likely to get banned two months down the line for their single instance of feeding, they're much more likely to end up just using the account to troll for that amount of time. Aka, "I'm going to get banned anyway, might as well just troll".

A punishment needs to be handed out as quickly as possible after the poor behavior. The longer the time between the punishment and the action that deserves the punishment the less effective the lesson and the more likely people are to go on trolling sprees once they think the account will be banned.

People are banned for intentional feeding with the automated system. It's certainly far from perfect, but no automatic system is going to be close to perfect while making sure to avoid banning players that are just bad at the game.

Bijeesny1 votes

{quoted}

That can backfire so very easily.

Take the two most common types of intentionally feeding;

The type of player that is trolling and is going to continue to troll until they get bored.

And the type of player that intentionally fed in a fit of rage for one reason or another.

With the first, it's more likely that they're going to get bored long before 2 months pass along with the ban being only a small deterrent since they can just create a new account.

With the second, if they realize that they are likely to get banned two months down the line for their single instance of feeding, they're much more likely to end up just using the account to troll for that amount of time. Aka, "I'm going to get banned anyway, might as well just troll".

A punishment needs to be handed out as quickly as possible after the poor behavior. The longer the time between the punishment and the action that deserves the punishment the less effective the lesson and the more likely people are to go on trolling sprees once they think the account will be banned.

People are banned for intentional feeding with the automated system. It's certainly far from perfect, but no automatic system is going to be close to perfect while making sure to avoid banning players that are just bad at the game.

no they're not banned 4 inting. Killtaiwanese is the perfect example of that Human will ALWAYS seperate bad players from trolls If CSGO has pretty good punishemt system- Overwatch idk why the fuck riot cant do the same

AeroWaffle3 votes

no they're not banned 4 inting. Killtaiwanese is the perfect example of that

A person slipping through the system does not mean that no one is banned.

A quick google search brings me this;

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/VMh2u1Gk-got-banned-for-intentionally-feeding-can-riot-help-me

Human will ALWAYS seperate bad players from trolls

Tell that to all the salty intentional feeding reports I'm sure people get whenever they just play poorly.

If CSGO has pretty good punishemt system- Overwatch idk why the fuck riot cant do the same

I don't know the details of either of these systems, maybe they are too fundamentally different (the games) for it to actually work effectively.

Bijeesny1 votes

{quoted}

A person slipping through the system does not mean that no one is banned.

A quick google search brings me this;

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/VMh2u1Gk-got-banned-for-intentionally-feeding-can-riot-help-me

Tell that to all the salty intentional feeding reports I'm sure people get whenever they just play poorly.

I don't know the details of either of these systems, maybe they are too fundamentally different (the games) for it to actually work effectively.

It can work because of REPLAY SYSTEM Just give Gold+ players the option to review the game where some1 was reported 4 griefing, and after unspecified amount of CORRECTLY solved cases give them small reward in xp/BE And just point out, Killtaiwanese is slippin through the system on SEVERAL SERVERS, he uplodas that shit on ty, was on reddit frontpage on several occasions, was highlighted on vids of some LoL ytbers....he doesnt slip through, hes dancing on it while taking a fat shit all over it

AeroWaffle2 votes

Previously, the Tribunal was a system that gave all players the power to vote on an individuals' case. But even with an IP reward there weren't nearly enough volunteers to handle the huge amount of reports flying in. And these were just with chat logs and scores which took around ~5 min to look over.

You're expecting players to watch a video that will take anywhere from 10 to 40 min and restrict the volunteers to only Gold+ players. No. That'll come nowhere close to the necessary people to actually make it work.

Edit:

And just point out, Killtaiwanese is slippin through the system on SEVERAL SERVERS, he uplodas that shit on ty, was on reddit frontpage on several occasions, was highlighted on vids of some LoL ytbers....he doesnt slip through, hes dancing on it while taking a fat shit all over it

Yes. This person should be banned. But let me ask you a question. Do you think a ban will actually stop this player from trolling? It's pretty clear that this person doesn't care about their accounts. They are there to troll. What do you think Riot can realistically do to stop someone from trolling when it's extremely easy to just create a fresh account?

A ban is only as effective as the person's value of their progress.

Bijeesny1 votes

{quoted}

Previously, the Tribunal was a system that gave all players the power to vote on an individuals' case. But even with an IP reward there weren't nearly enough volunteers to handle the huge amount of reports flying in. And these were just with chat logs and scores which took around ~5 min to look over.

You're expecting players to watch a video that will take anywhere from 10 to 40 min and restrict the volunteers to only Gold+ players. No. That'll come nowhere close to the necessary people to actually make it work.

How I imagined that was something like this: You report the player for, lets say, inting. Then in that box for additional comment you describe what happened and write at which point of the game inting started. Those descriptions could be seen by a player who would reviews that case. That way you dont have to go through the whole replay, just watch the part pointed out in the report card. I do know it would be hard I believe it could be much more efficient (at least with banning inters that is). Reports for toxic behaviour could still be handled by automated system. And regarding my comment about GS not playing the game, i apologize i was unclear. My point was that Ghostcrawler (not just him, any1 whos responsible for gameplay changes) doesn't play the game enough, at least not enough to completely realise how some changes may impact the game

YerroFever2 votes

I believe people actually do review games. I don't know what their policies are or how the review happens but I know that in some instances, reds will watch replays as Tantram has stated he's watched replays of a person who claimed to intentionally feed and troll to see if he would get banned.

General Esdeath 1 votes

But that person came here, saying they would do it, and he's only one person.

YerroFever2 votes

{quoted}

But that person came here, saying they would do it, and he's only one person.

I can say "at least one person at riot reviews games at Riot because Tantram says he reviews games"

I cannot say "at most one person reviews games because Tantram is the only person who said he reviews games"

It's like me posting a poll about whether or not people breathe and just because not every single person on the forums says they do, doesn't mean the only people on the forums who replied are the ones who breathe.

General Esdeath 1 votes

But how many Riot employees can view them or are tasked with it? Tantram is in a high position so of course he's trusted with it.

YerroFever1 votes

{quoted}

But how many Riot employees can view them or are tasked with it? Tantram is in a high position so of course he's trusted with it.

I'm curious... what do you believe is the structure of the player support branch at Riot and which employees do what?

General Esdeath 1 votes

That's the thing, we don't know because we don't work there.

YerroFever1 votes

{quoted}

That's the thing, we don't know because we don't work there.

So if you admit that you don't know what goes on there, that means you also admit that this quote below from your original post is just nothing but a baseless accusation because in this quote you claim to know how things work at Riot.

Riot, please add some live human judgment on cases like this. When the system picks up CONSTANT negative scores and deaths in the 10s, nearing 20s, let it trigger something for a person to watch it. I'll volunteer for it. I'm sure plenty would. We don't have to fear a tribunal 2.0, we can improve it to make it actually good! Don't try to tempt people with rewards, just leave it for people who want to make the community better.

I can hear it now, "but it would take too long!"

Look, I'd rather this person, or anyone who trolls, be banned 2 months later rather than never at all, because right now the system is banning few people because it just says "Oh this guy isn't inting, he's just really shit at the game. Nothing to see here!".

Instead of making claims of how you think things work and then later admit that you have no idea how they work, ask for clarification and try to work with them and add suggestions for Riot. They'll respond far better to suggestions than assumptions and accusations. If you watch the boards, you'll see that most reds respond to suggestions more than threads like this.

General Esdeath 1 votes

Back up there champ, we know how the IFS system works, which is why I tell you it's not doing its job. People have proven it several times. When I say "something at Riot" I'm talking about their office system. In my job only 2 people have access to the office computer, but you can't know which 2 unless you work there. However, you CAN know from evidence that the punch-in device requires a number code.

YerroFever1 votes

{quoted}

Back up there champ, we know how the IFS system works, which is why I tell you it's not doing its job. People have proven it several times. When I say "something at Riot" I'm talking about their office system. In my job only 2 people have access to the office computer, but you can't know which 2 unless you work there. However, you CAN know from evidence that the punch-in device requires a number code.

That is not logical.

So on the outside, people know that there is access to a computer. However on the outside, the only logical conclusions that one with no internal information can come to is that it is most likely that at least one person has access to that computer, otherwise it only serves as expensive decoration and people tend to not want to waste money so it most likely serves a business purpose.

To get to your logic, I have to assume two people have access to that computer. I also have to assume there is a numeric passcode lock on the door to the office to get there... and then I can come to the conclusion that the punch in device on the door requires a numeric code.

You take way too many assumptions before your conclusion that aren't supported by anything.

What if in fact the lock on the door is an alpha numeric keyboard instead of solely just a number pad? I would have no way to conclude that the door only requires a numeric code. You have so many gaps in your logic that you just fill in with assumptions and just state that your assumptions are true that there's no real way of ever believing anything you say because it has too many holes in it.

You have no idea if more than one person actually manually reviews replays. Did you ever actually ask anyone? Did you ever see a post where they definitively state that no person other than Tantram reviews replays? Why is it that you assume that only top level people are allowed to review replays? What is the basis of your statements?

General Esdeath 1 votes

I never said only Tantram. Someone mentioned he does watch and I replied "We know only him, and he's in a high position. How high do you have to be?"

I never said "only top level people can" but to use Tantram as evidence is like saying "Well CertainlyT was part of the team making Zoe, so anyone can be on the team". Those 2 are established members of Riot who are constantly in the public eye.

YerroFever1 votes

{quoted}

I never said only Tantram. Someone mentioned he does watch and I replied "We know only him, and he's in a high position. How high do you have to be?"

and that's addressed here:

{quoted}

But that person came here, saying they would do it, and he's only one person.

{quoted}

But how many Riot employees can view them or are tasked with it? Tantram is in a high position so of course he's trusted with it.

You are really bad at remembering what you write. Next part of this thing....

I never said "only top level people can" but to use Tantram as evidence is like saying "Well CertainlyT was part of the team making Zoe, so anyone can be on the team". Those 2 are established members of Riot who are constantly in the public eye.

This makes absolutely no sense in how it relates to defending why you made your statement about the 2 people having access to the computer and having a numeric password nor does it relate to why you made the two quotes above.

Reading the other responses in this thread tells me that you have a crap ton more assumptions that you just claim as true because you think they are true and support your idea so there's really no reason to continue to talk to someone who throws reasonableness and logic out the window.

General Esdeath 1 votes

"I know Tantram would be able to" =/= "only tantram can do this"

We only know for 100% he can because he's said he can.

Also, I make no assumptions here, only stating the reasoning why we can assume Tantram can see them but we can't assume everyone at Riot can.

One more time. Tantram is a high position person who is well known, who has admitted to watching replays. We can't say anything about anyone else. The only thing we know for sure is that the IFS isn't doing a good job since multiple people have posted here about inters, and checking their match history, those people still weren't banned.

There's even a person who makes videos that are hours long of him running down a lane inting, but the system doesn't ban him.

YerroFever1 votes

{quoted}

"I know Tantram would be able to" =/= "only tantram can do this"

We only know for 100% he can because he's said he can.

Also, I make no assumptions here, only stating the reasoning why we can assume Tantram can see them but we can't assume everyone at Riot can.

One more time. Tantram is a high position person who is well known, who has admitted to watching replays. We can't say anything about anyone else. The only thing we know for sure is that the IFS isn't doing a good job since multiple people have posted here about inters, and checking their match history, those people still weren't banned.

There's even a person who makes videos that are hours long of him running down a lane inting, but the system doesn't ban him.

Lets recap what happened here so you understand why what you are saying in this is not consistent with what you have said before.

{quoted}

I believe people actually do review games. I don't know what their policies are or how the review happens but I know that in some instances, reds will watch replays as Tantram has stated he's watched replays of a person who claimed to intentionally feed and troll to see if he would get banned.

{quoted}

But that person came here, saying they would do it, and he's only one person.

{quoted}

I can say "at least one person at riot reviews games at Riot because Tantram says he reviews games"

I cannot say "at most one person reviews games because Tantram is the only person who said he reviews games"

It's like me posting a poll about whether or not people breathe and just because not every single person on the forums says they do, doesn't mean the only people on the forums who replied are the ones who breathe.

{quoted}

But how many Riot employees can view them or are tasked with it? Tantram is in a high position so of course he's trusted with it.

See, what you're doing here is constantly trying to restrict the number of people who actually review the games because it goes against your original post, specifically this sentence, which is actually the whole basis of your argument:

Riot, please add some live human judgment on cases like this.

By constantly trying to create unfounded restrictions on how many people can or do review games through your comments, like now dismissing the fact that it has been brought up that there already is human judgment in these cases, and then you create the false premise:

But that person came here, saying they would do it, and he's only one person.

You are trying to fallaciously fortify your position. So in your reply, you talk about how Tantram is in a high position so he's trusted with it, which creates an exclusive requirement based on trust.

But how many Riot employees can view them or are tasked with it? Tantram is in a high position so of course he's trusted with it

Instead of trying to open up the possibilities that more than one person can review games, you are restricting it, which again fallaciously fortifies your position that riot "needs to add some live human judgment."

After having your logical fallacies picked apart, you now come around and agree with me, but try to phrase it like it is what you said from the start, which is actually false and is chronicled in the thread because this last quote:

{quoted}

"I know Tantram would be able to" =/= "only tantram can do this"

We only know for 100% he can because he's said he can.

Also, I make no assumptions here, only stating the reasoning why we can assume Tantram can see them but we can't assume everyone at Riot can.

is in direct conflict with this original post:

{quoted}

Riot, please add some live human judgment on cases like this.

Are you going to try and keep telling me that your stance has been consistent throughout this whole thing?

ninwing2 votes

How do you even get a 21% winrate. I think manual reviews would actually be useful, or some sort of reintroduction of the tribunal system for Honor 5s and maybe 4s who get rewards based on judgement and participation. Things like these need to be stopped but since it's low elo no one bats an eye.

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