the actual beef people have with the report system. and riot wont address it

scazzman··6 votes·4,178 views

the problem isnt that riot is "chat restricting toxic players" it's they are punishing people for hurling a few insults at a bad player. or defending thier pride against someone who says things that let's face it. if someone told you in real life you would probably punch them. all while letting trolls and people who try to goat people into being toxic get away with it.

it's like sex offender registry. everyone knows it's a flawed system that does more harm then good and actually increases the likelyhood of reoffending. but no one that actually matters will speak out against it because if they do they "support sex offenders"

if anyone at riot were to speak out against how problematic the report system actually is. they would be labled as "supporting toxic players" and probably be fired

86 Comments

RiotRiot Tantram11 votes

if anyone at riot were to speak out against how problematic the report system actually is. they would be labled as "supporting toxic players" and probably be fired

Give me some ideas on how it could be improved. I'd really love nothing more than to make things perfect, but I understand that is an impossible goal. I feel we've make a lot of positive improvements and still have a lot more we can make. That being said, there may be a lot of things that we haven't thought of and it would be valuable to hear any actionable ideas.

it's a flawed system that does more harm then good and actually increases the likelihood of reoffending

Reform rates are actually very good. The vast majority of people never receive any sort of punishment. Those that receive a 10-game chat restriction rarely receive any other type of punishment. This goes on all the way up the escalation schedule (people reform). That is the reason why we issue perma-bans where we do. At that point the likelihood of reform is low.

The really tough thing is that the number of people who are unsportsmanlike or 'toxic' (I hate that word) is actually not that high relative to the population. But the likelihood of encountering unsportsmanship is raised because you have 9 other players in each game, and it only takes one bad game from someone to hurt your experience. The majority of the time this is from otherwise well mannered people who are having an off day.

PS I also upvoted you, because you posted about something that is important to you, and it seems like you do care.

Linthe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ZRYZ5Hik,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-07-25T21:22:59.419+0000)

Give me some ideas on how it could be improved. I'd really love nothing more than to make things perfect, but I understand that is an impossible goal. I feel we've make a lot of positive improvements and still have a lot more we can make. That being said, there may be a lot of things that we haven't thought of and it would be valuable to hear any actionable ideas.

Make the reporting/punishing more transparent. The #1 (legit) complaint I hear from people is that their reports have no effect.. If they do have an effect then people should know. (And Im not talking just about being the last report that broke the camel's back.)

This was what was great about Tribunal. The punish/pardon decisions were right there for everyone to see.

PlayerX said this, that and the other thing.. and got this punishment for it.

Masalar1 votes

Those that receive a 10-game chat restriction never receive any other type of punishment.

Really? Or is an "almost" missing in there? (Not trying to be mean, I'm just assuming the second but really impressed if it's the first)

RiotRiot Tantram1 votes

THis!

scazzman1 votes

i've also suggested this before. and i either get mocked and patronized or flat out ignored

ModPrandine5 votes

{quoted}

i've also suggested this before. and i either get mocked and patronized or flat out ignored

Did you ever think that maybe it has something to do with the way that you're delivering your messages and your general reputation on the forums that has people take issue with what you're saying?

Eternal Colossus1 votes

{quoted}

Did you ever think that maybe it has something to do with the way that you're delivering your messages and your general reputation on the forums that has people take issue with what you're saying?

I disagree, and in my experience it makes little to no difference with how you deliver the message. I created a thread about a year ago bringing to light a RIOT employee who put into motion me getting a temporary ban, only because his brother in law played a game with me, was beyond verbally abusive to me the entire game, and said that his brother in law was working on banning me as we speak.

The thread that I posted about it was very clear and concise, making it known exactly what the details were, and calling for serious actions to be taken against both this RIOT employee and the brother in law who proudly said that he had been getting his brother in law to ban people he doesn't like for quite some time.

Three things happened to my thread after that point.

  1. The majority of people who read it downvoted me, and often commented in a verbally abusive manner telling me that I was guilty and stupid.
  2. A RIOT employee responded to the thread in a verbally abusive manner, telling me that if I do not stop being verbally abusive by "placing blame" that I would receive a permanent ban.
  3. My entire thread was then deleted by RIOT completely.
ModPrandine1 votes

Sorry but I find this really hard to believe, although I do remember hearing about a Riot employee getting fired from the company after he kept banning people that he didn't like. If this is true in what you say then that's really sad honestly. However, it's been my experience that people who have a long history of little to no effort posts and poor behavior are generally doubted and ignored. Even if they are telling the truth, sometimes their reputation can lead people to believe that they're lying, raging and/or trolling as well also.

Quick question though, did you ever try filing a support ticket about it and provide screenshots of the posts in question as well?

Eternal Colossus1 votes

In my opinion (I know, I'm biased, but that's ok) I have tried to make all of my threads very effort-driven, concise, well-worded, and diplomatically stated. I don't tend to post on here much because of my jobs, college classes, and usually no urgent need to post about anything, but any of my posts that are trying to explain how the ban system has falsely punished me have been met with other players and RIOT employees responding in negative (and even verbally abusive) comments, and then they are deleted.

To answer your question, yes I did. I filed two support tickets and two threads on the board giving full details and logs about what happened. One of those support tickets is where someone with essentially the same name as the brother in law responded and told me that my ban was warranted and that the ticket would be closed. I said that this is really wrong and another RIOT employee responded saying that the other employee was OBVIOUSLY not the brother in law, and that I'm at fault and the ticket is now closed. The threads that I made had essentially the exact same result. Then both of the threads and both of the support tickets were deleted. So I know, people keep telling me "if you don't post the direct quotes then I won't believe you". I know, and I'm sorry, but that's kinda exactly why RIOT deleted them...

ModPrandine

[{quoted}](name=Eternal Colossus,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ZRYZ5Hik,comment-id=00060002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-27T16:19:21.683+0000)

In my opinion (I know, I'm biased, but that's ok) I have tried to make all of my threads very effort-driven, concise, well-worded, and diplomatically stated. I don't tend to post on here much because of my jobs, college classes, and usually no urgent need to post about anything, but any of my posts that are trying to explain how the ban system has falsely punished me have been met with other players and RIOT employees responding in negative (and even verbally abusive) comments, and then they are deleted.

I read the one thread of yours that still exists discussing that. You make a ton of claims but fail to provide full proof or cite sources when asked to do so. The majority of people in that thread were trying to have a discussion with you, but since you wouldn't provide full proof or cite sources to back up your claims it's only natural that some people would become frustrated and annoyed with you.

To answer your question, yes I did. I filed two support tickets and two threads on the board giving full details and logs about what happened. One of those support tickets is where someone with essentially the same name as the brother in law responded and told me that my ban was warranted and that the ticket would be closed. I said that this is really wrong and another RIOT employee responded saying that the other employee was OBVIOUSLY not the brother in law, and that I'm at fault and the ticket is now closed. The threads that I made had essentially the exact same result. Then both of the threads and both of the support tickets were deleted. So I know, people keep telling me "if you don't post the direct quotes then I won't believe you". I know, and I'm sorry, but that's kinda exactly why RIOT deleted them...

The reason why we ask for people to provide full and real proof and cite sources is because often times they're just posting out of blind rage and/or just straight-up trolling. If someone actually wants help then they'll meet us half-way so-to-speak by providing actual evidence to back up their claims as this helps separate the people who want help from the people who just want to rage and troll the forums just because they didn't get their way.

I don't know what was said in the tickets and threads by either you or them so I can't really comment on that. However, it's been my experience that threads are often closed if it is deemed that the original poster of them doesn't really want help after all and is stuck with a "my way or the highway" kind of attitude, yelling and raging at everyone who doesn't give them the Yesman answers that they wanted. I'm not saying that this was you, but generally this is partly why threads here are closed and/or deleted. I assume that this is the same way for support tickets as well also, but someone else with more knowledge in that area can comment on that far better than I can though.

Eternal Colossus1 votes

As I said, I cannot provide cited sources or quotes is because RIOT has deleted them. Hopefully you can see that I have absolutely no power over that.

And as far as my threads and support tickets being closed due to "my-way-or-the-highway" attitude, I can guarantee that is not the case. The two main threads that I am referring to are:

  1. A thread that brought to light and asked for community support against the RIOT employee that gave me a temporary ban due to his toxic brother in law telling him to.
  2. Asking RIOT why I got temp-banned and the things that showed up in my "why you were banned" chat box were things like "I'll ward your red", "gj guys lets push mid", "let's get baron", and "keep it up guys".

Both times I supplied direct quotes, since they had not deleted my support tickets yet. Then the RIOT employees were extremely derogatory and verbally abusive against me, and then the threads and support tickets that I had cited were all deleted. Tell me that doesn't sound fishy Fizz ???

rtbf2216514121 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ZRYZ5Hik,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-07-25T21:22:59.419+0000)

Reform rates are actually very good. The vast majority of people never receive any sort of punishment. Those that receive a 10-game chat restriction rarely receive any other type of punishment. This goes on all the way up the escalation schedule (people reform). That is the reason why we issue perma-bans where we do. At that point the likelihood of reform is low.

I've actually had a better time putting people in their place brutally than relying on the system. I still report, but many of them don't seem to go through when it's a clear violation. (Not that all my reports were always correct)

Stasis6912 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ZRYZ5Hik,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-07-25T21:22:59.419+0000)

Give me some ideas on how it could be improved. I'd really love nothing more than to make things perfect, but I understand that is an impossible goal. I feel we've make a lot of positive improvements and still have a lot more we can make. That being said, there may be a lot of things that we haven't thought of and it would be valuable to hear any actionable ideas.

Reform rates are actually very good. The vast majority of people never receive any sort of punishment. Those that receive a 10-game chat restriction rarely receive any other type of punishment. This goes on all the way up the escalation schedule (people reform). That is the reason why we issue perma-bans where we do. At that point the likelihood of reform is low.

The really tough thing is that the number of people who are unsportsmanlike or 'toxic' (I hate that word) is actually not that high relative to the population. But the likelihood of encountering unsportsmanship is raised because you have 9 other players in each game, and it only takes one bad game from someone to hurt your experience. The majority of the time this is from otherwise well mannered people who are having an off day.

PS I also upvoted you, because you posted about something that is important to you, and it seems like you do care.

You could start with a system that doesn't place bias on an individual and shift the system to view games objectively and individually, with individual players receiving strikes per game infraction. If a game contains a report, then entire game is reviewed and ALL offenders can and are observed and punished as needed.

What is Riot's logic behind the current system that can see a tame/mild player being punished while there are four or five others in the same game that are a tier beyond these infractions yet because of the current systems flaws and deficiencies they are "getting away with it?"

RiotRiot Tantram6 votes

The system doesn't place bias on an individual. In fact, looking at each person as an individual is the only way to not be biased. Each player that is reported is reviewed. There is really no reason to review a case for a player that is not reported. We aren't going to penalize people if nobody was offended or negatively affected by them (reported them).

What you think of as people 'getting away with it' is generally positive players having an off game. When one player gets punished and another does not it is because either the punished player was more severe and/or they have a consistent history of the behavior. If they continue that behavior, they will get punished.

It's interesting hearing the two sides. 'Both people get away with everything, and everyone gets punished for no reason.' The rules are consistent.

Linthe4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ZRYZ5Hik,comment-id=000600060000,timestamp=2016-07-26T18:53:26.865+0000)

It's interesting hearing the two sides. 'Both people get away with everything, and everyone gets punished for no reason.' The rules are consistent.

Everyone gets punished for no reason just comes from the people who get punished.. Any time logs actually get posted... it's clear that the punishment was just.

People get away with everything is just because other players don't SEE the offender get pinished.. As you said: "If they continue that behavior, they will get punished." Yea... but I won't see it.. AFAIK know they never got punished....

Eternal Colossus1 votes

{quoted}

Everyone gets punished for no reason just comes from the people who get punished.. Any time logs actually get posted... it's clear that the punishment was just.

People get away with everything is just because other players don't SEE the offender get pinished.. As you said: "If they continue that behavior, they will get punished." Yea... but I won't see it.. AFAIK know they never got punished....

I disagree completely. I won't say that "everyone" gets punished for no reason, but I can give specific examples of myself getting banned for no reason. No, I do not have the chat logs for them, I'm sorry, they aren't recent and my email automatically deletes stuff after a while. For example, however, I have received punishments that quotes my offenses as "play calling" ("let's get baron", "follow me and we'll push mid". "watch out for yi heading mid"), as "spamming chat" ("we could get dragon", "bot lane is mia", "I'm getting camped top"), and as "verbal abuse" ("gj guys keep it up", "I'll ward your red", "thanks a lot Hecarim") (btw that last quote was said 100% literally I was thanking him, and a RIOT employee apologized to me and said that the system picked it up as verbal abusive sarcasm).

On the other hand, I have seen many players that consistently offend receive no punishment for their actions over long periods of time. Have you not played with verbally abusive/intentionally trolling players who brag that they can do whatever they want, because RIOT has never punished them for it and never will? I have played with multiple people queued together, who all verbally abuse the player(s) that they are queued with, lie to the enemy team claiming that the other player(s) was the verbally abusive one, and get that other player punished while the actual guilty players receive no restrictions that would inhibit daily playing (such as a temp or perma ban). I could go into details about more specific examples of this, but I will just summarize and say that in the last 2 years that I have been playing, I have kept track of 5-10 players who I viewed as exceptionally guilty of breaking the Summoner's Code, and who proudly said that they do it all the time and will not get punished for it. Out of all of those players, I have not seen a single one of them receive a temporary or permanent ban within the 3 months that I kept track of them after their extreme offenses.

All in all, I won't say that "everyone" gets punished OR gets not punished, but the system does have quite a few flaws, and unfortunately RIOT does not like to see it that way, so many players that do not deserve punishments will continue to get punished, and many players that deserve punishment will never receive one.

Linthe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Eternal Colossus,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ZRYZ5Hik,comment-id=00060006000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-27T02:40:24.547+0000)

I disagree completely. I won't say that "everyone" gets punished for no reason, but I can give specific examples of myself getting banned for no reason. No, I do not have the chat logs for them, I'm sorry, they aren't recent and my email automatically deletes stuff after a while. For example, however, I have received punishments that quotes my offenses as "play calling" ("let's get baron", "follow me and we'll push mid". "watch out for yi heading mid"), as "spamming chat" ("we could get dragon", "bot lane is mia", "I'm getting camped top"), and as "verbal abuse" ("gj guys keep it up", "I'll ward your red", "thanks a lot Hecarim") (btw that last quote was said 100% literally I was thanking him, and a RIOT employee apologized to me and said that the system picked it up as verbal abusive sarcasm).

On the other hand, I have seen many players that consistently offend receive no punishment for their actions over long periods of time. Have you not played with verbally abusive/intentionally trolling players who brag that they can do whatever they want, because RIOT has never punished them for it and never will? I have played with multiple people queued together, who all verbally abuse the player(s) that they are queued with, lie to the enemy team claiming that the other player(s) was the verbally abusive one, and get that other player punished while the actual guilty players receive no restrictions that would inhibit daily playing (such as a temp or perma ban). I could go into details about more specific examples of this, but I will just summarize and say that in the last 2 years that I have been playing, I have kept track of 5-10 players who I viewed as exceptionally guilty of breaking the Summoner's Code, and who proudly said that they do it all the time and will not get punished for it. Out of all of those players, I have not seen a single one of them receive a temporary or permanent ban within the 3 months that I kept track of them after their extreme offenses.

I agree with your 2nd paragraph... I don't know if the punishment system is too lax but I do know that transparency IS a problem. Those people you reference may very well have been punished.. and you just didn't know about it...

I find your 1st paragraph to be absurd.. I dont believe that anyone ever has been punished for typing "let's go baron" or "ill push mid".. And until you can post logs demonstrating that (which you conveniently say that you CANT), I will continue to disbelieve you.

Eternal Colossus1 votes

Well it is logically hard for me to give you those chat logs when RIOT employees (99% of the time) refuse to give you your chat logs. And, I fully understand that you don't HAVE to believe me without chat logs. However, I am being fully honest with you. Each of those examples that I gave were of separate instances where I either received a temporary chat restriction or a temporary ban, and those direct quotes are what the "examples of why you were punished" box gave, and many of them I also followed up with RIOT support tickets and they confirmed those actions.

And in reference to my second paragraph, I am not sure either why players like me who have never sworn or used hate speech or been verbally abusive or intentionally thrown have gotten punished numerous times for pointing out the players that are actually breaking the Summoner's Code, while those players flaunt their seeming invincibility to getting punished at all. I do know that multiple verbally abusive players claim that RIOT employees have told them that players that spend more time and money into the game are less likely to be punished even if they are at fault (I hope that this is not true, because if it is then that is horrible). I also think that RIOT's current system of determining who needs to get banned needs to be retrofitted completely. I have had RIOT employees explain to me exactly how it works (even though they aren't supposed to, and RIOT has since deleted the support tickets with them explaining for exactly that reason). And to be honest, the current system is skewed a lot heavier on punishing players who point out the trolls, verbal abusers, and intentional feeders than the actual trolls, verbal abusers, and intentional feeders. Like I said I truly believe that this needs to be changed, but RIOT is standing mute on the topic and claims that the system is flawless.

Linthe2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Eternal Colossus,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ZRYZ5Hik,comment-id=0006000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-27T16:06:50.631+0000)

Well it is logically hard for me to give you those chat logs when RIOT employees (99% of the time) refuse to give you your chat logs.

I have never been punished (played since mid-season 3 IIRC) so I cannot comment on this personally, but this statement flies in the face of many, MANY posts on this board (by blue names, red names and.. uncolored? names).

AManHasNoRank2 votes

One thing I've started to notice is that several people I've played with seem to be under the assumption that reports don't do anything. They don't bother to report a toxic player because they don't think anything will come of it. I know there is a thing in place now that will let you know when a person you've reported is punished, but this doesn't help inform the folks who are already disheartened by the system.

There also seems to be a lot of general confusion on the boards as to how reports actually work. Would it be possible to publish an in-depth article about the report system, maybe something that could show up in the launcher so more people will be exposed to it?

Eternal Colossus1 votes

{quoted}

One thing I've started to notice is that several people I've played with seem to be under the assumption that reports don't do anything. They don't bother to report a toxic player because they don't think anything will come of it. I know there is a thing in place now that will let you know when a person you've reported is punished, but this doesn't help inform the folks who are already disheartened by the system.

There also seems to be a lot of general confusion on the boards as to how reports actually work. Would it be possible to publish an in-depth article about the report system, maybe something that could show up in the launcher so more people will be exposed to it?

Unfortunately, no they can't and won't publish an in-depth description of how it works, because they "wouldn't want people to know how it works and take advantage of how our system catches offenders". However, multiple RIOT employees have told me exactly how it works during support ticket conversations, but now RIOT has deleted those tickets for exactly that reason. And I hate to say this, but how the system actually works is extremely flawed, contrary to RIOT's claims about it being accurate. If you would like me to explain how it works let me know.

Friend of Falcor1 votes

How do you think it works?

Eternal Colossus1 votes

It's been a while since they explained it to me, so you'll excuse any lapses in my paraphrasing. But essentially the automated system has a set number (I don't know what the number is, they didn't tell me) of reports that RIOT views is average within a certain number of games. For example, let's pretend that the average number is 5 reports in 5 games (it's not, but it's an easy number to deal with XD). If a player is reported more than 5 (the average) games within 5 games, then the system automatically pings them for punishment. It then automatically searches that player's chat to find words or phrases that indicate negativity or verbal abuse, and if it finds indications of those words then that player receives a heavier punishment. Then over time, if the system picks up that player being reported and saying those same words or phrases then the punishment stacks onto the previous same offenses, and a higher punishment will be given.

Here are the problems that I see with this system:

  1. The Tribunal is completely gone, it is not "in recess" as they have said for the last 3 years. The Tribunal would use actual people to monitor offenses and make judgement calls based on the situation. This new system is 100% automated, working only through indicator words, not by judgement calls or situation-based choices.

  2. This system is very ineffective at punishing for intentional feeders and intentional trolls, since they are often no indicator words to be seen, and even if there are they are not as clearly defined as indicators of verbal abuse.

  3. This automated system is programmed to very heavily punish players who defend themselves against other players, or who openly point out that another player is being verbally abusive, intentionally trolling, etc... These include phrases like "my team is trolling me", "I'm muting and reporting you", "will you please report my yi", "leave me alone", etc... The first problem with this is that saying those things is not remotely against the Summoner's Code. In fact, in my opinion, you would think that RIOT would support players pointing out the players that are actually violating the code. The second problem with this is that it is essentially punishing the players that are standing up to the bullies that have been allowed to stay in this game. If this were a school or a similar real-world public setting, people would HIGHLY encourage others to stand up to the bullies and defend themselves if the bully attacks them or insults them. This doesn't mean that the defender has to throw punches or insults back, but it doesn't mean that they should just "mute" the bullies and pretend that they don't exist either.

  4. Finally, the automated system is flawed because it often seems to have little to no affect on the mass populous of actual verbally abusive and trolling players in the League community. Why? I honestly have no idea. But I'm sure that we have all played games with numerous people that proudly say that they have never been punished by RIOT for trolling or verbal abuse, and that they never will. Now I understand that many of these people could easily be lying and could be punished for their actions further down the road. However, there have been 5-10 cases of players that I considered to be the absolute worst violators that I have played with, and I monitored their profiles over the three months after their offenses which I viewed (offenses which, according to the Summoner's Code, should have instantly received either a temporary ban or easily a permanent ban). Out of all of those cases, none of them received punishments that restricted their gameplay (they all continued to play consistently over that three month period, indicating no temp or perma ban).

So why is it like this? I don't know. But you can ask almost any league player, and the grand consensus is that players are quitting league, refusing to play ranked, or just muting everyone at the start of the game because 99% of the games that they play have at least one verbally abusive or trolling player that ruins the game for everyone. The bottom line is that the percentage of those players is far too high in this game, which in my opinion shows that RIOT's current method of reporting and punishing is not working.

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

There is really no reason to review a case for a player that is not reported. We aren't going to penalize people if nobody was offended or negatively affected by them (reported them).

I have to disagree here.

hypothetical situation that I've heard many times is that someone is getting flamed and gets frustrated enough to afk. They leave and the team reports them and they get punished but because they left no one reports the original flamer(s) and the original flamer(s) don't get reviewed.

Stasis6915 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ZRYZ5Hik,comment-id=000600060000,timestamp=2016-07-26T18:53:26.865+0000)

The system doesn't place bias on an individual. In fact, looking at each person as an individual is the only way to not be biased. Each player that is reported is reviewed. There is really no reason to review a case for a player that is not reported. We aren't going to penalize people if nobody was offended or negatively affected by them (reported them).

What you think of as people 'getting away with it' is generally positive players having an off game. When one player gets punished and another does not it is because either the punished player was more severe and/or they have a consistent history of the behavior. If they continue that behavior, they will get punished.

It's interesting hearing the two sides. 'Both people get away with everything, and everyone gets punished for no reason.' The rules are consistent.

Is that honestly Riot's perspective? I quit this game directly in response to YOU personally affirming my ban as accurate. I spent a week uploading replays, screenshots, obtaining data and presenting it to defend myself and got a blase, "you're guilty as sin breh" from you, when I couldn't possibly have been guilty of anything but chat violations.

I sat out two weeks and my first game I played after my ban there were six people who did much worse and at least as much as I was accused of doing. Two afks on my team and my support followed me around trying to take my jungle camps. I played a few just a handful more games after that with similar experiences and I said I'm done. Other than a few games I played because an attractive female friend asked me to (to which I have since responded no, I don't want to play this torture called a "game" anymore). I hadn't played since July 4.

Then last night I couldn't sleep and was looking to burn a little time, so against better judgement I q'd up. Huge mistake. Our 0/3 mid ragequit 6 minutes into the game followed by incessant "/ff pls" requests from bot lane as they intentionally helped the enemy team, you know, something you personally affirmed to me was a bannable offense. This is my consistent league experience. Why don't you check out my chat logs since I was banned.

Meanwhile, in response to your reply, I decided to look into the match history of the player who told me, "I hope you're killed in a mass shooting" the game before I was banned for two weeks.

You know, this guy: http://imgur.com/4HjCfEY and his buddies: http://imgur.com/DyyEj1i

Found some interesting stuff.

First and foremost, it appears there have been no time bans for said player.

http://imgur.com/a/mJDvJ - Five zeal Anivia? One item in a 19 minute game ranked game (albeit expensive one)? You have more data than me, you be the judge, or not.

I just want to know how you can, with a straight face, tell me that a single player can violate and harass another individual or even an entire group, report them, and since they weren't reported themselves for whatever reason (it shouldn't matter, honestly, if you're going to set standards, everybody needs to be held to the same ones) that they should remain unpunished simply because they reported someone else, and while that person may have been guilty or not, it doesn't matter, they are simply absolved since they themselves were not reported?

Sounds like a massive oversight, deficiency, and skirting of responsibility.

Best Ekko NA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ZRYZ5Hik,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-07-25T21:22:59.419+0000)

Give me some ideas on how it could be improved. I'd really love nothing more than to make things perfect, but I understand that is an impossible goal. I feel we've make a lot of positive improvements and still have a lot more we can make. That being said, there may be a lot of things that we haven't thought of and it would be valuable to hear any actionable ideas.

Reform rates are actually very good. The vast majority of people never receive any sort of punishment. Those that receive a 10-game chat restriction rarely receive any other type of punishment. This goes on all the way up the escalation schedule (people reform). That is the reason why we issue perma-bans where we do. At that point the likelihood of reform is low.

The really tough thing is that the number of people who are unsportsmanlike or 'toxic' (I hate that word) is actually not that high relative to the population. But the likelihood of encountering unsportsmanship is raised because you have 9 other players in each game, and it only takes one bad game from someone to hurt your experience. The majority of the time this is from otherwise well mannered people who are having an off day.

PS I also upvoted you, because you posted about something that is important to you, and it seems like you do care.

My only issue with the system is the fact that there are games where everyone is upset and "raging". I feel like unless someone says something absolutely inappropriate that in these cases players should NOT be punished by the system. If a whole team of players are flaming each other calling one another bad and letting them know how much they love each other, there's no reason for the system to take any action unless they are using racial or very bad hate speech. Yes it's unsportsmanlike however people get frustrated when things aren't going how they want it too and say things they normally wouldn't. This doesn't really make them a "toxic" player, it's just a game or two here or there where their attitude slipped and to me it's pretty absurd for someone to be punished by either Riot or the system for it.

Zielmann1 votes

If it's really 'just a game or two here or there where their attitude slipped", then they're not getting punished. People are punished for consistently being unsportsmanlike, not for getting caught up in the negativity in one game now and then.

scazzman2 votes

also. i feel like riot's zero tolerance stance towards retaliation is not only unfair, but unrealistic, do i think there's a line. absolutely, but i shouldnt have to worry about being permabanned, because i told too many 12 year old kiddos to "fuck off" because they told me i should kill myself, that i'm bad at the game, and should uninstall. "this statement alone should be an insta-perma worthy offense", in my opinion telling someone to uninstall is worse than any "kill yourself," n bomb, or "get cancer" as it sends the message that they're somehow unwelcome in the league community

EMeta2 votes

"fuck off" has no place in this game. Riot wants a game entirely without that. If players are going to bring that into the game, then they should get some kind of notification that this is not cool. If, after being notified that the devs want a game without this kind of language, the player still continues, then he probably should worry about greater punishments.

Eternal Colossus1 votes

{quoted}

"fuck off" has no place in this game. Riot wants a game entirely without that. If players are going to bring that into the game, then they should get some kind of notification that this is not cool. If, after being notified that the devs want a game without this kind of language, the player still continues, then he probably should worry about greater punishments.

While I agree with you that "**** off" should not have a place in this community, I think you are missing his point entirely. I for one don't swear, period, in or out of game, as you can tell with me putting **** instead of spelling it out. However, "**** off" in my opinion comes nowhere close to what he was mentioning, "because they told me i should kill myself, that i'm bad at the game, should uninstall, n bomb, or get cancer". And as I have mentioned in past comments, I have played with summoners who have said exactly what he is referring to and even much worse, and the worst of those offenders I have monitored over the 3 months after their offense, and none of them that I have seen have received a temporary or permanent ban.

EMeta2 votes

Like the good Tantram said, most bad behavior is by decent players on a really bad day. Furthermore, if they did get a warning or chat restriction, chances are very good that they cleaned up their behavior after that. Most players don't want to be assholes and don't want to be banned. That indicates to me that even of the players who I might notice being complete douchecanoes, 95% of those probably won't receive gameplay bans. Should more players get bans? I dunno, I tend to think so, but then I haven't seen the recidivism numbers, so I'm not in a great position to make that decision.

Eternal Colossus1 votes

{quoted}

Like the good Tantram said, most bad behavior is by decent players on a really bad day. Furthermore, if they did get a warning or chat restriction, chances are very good that they cleaned up their behavior after that. Most players don't want to be assholes and don't want to be banned. That indicates to me that even of the players who I might notice being complete douchecanoes, 95% of those probably won't receive gameplay bans. Should more players get bans? I dunno, I tend to think so, but then I haven't seen the recidivism numbers, so I'm not in a great position to make that decision.

Unfortunately I have to disagree, and here are my reasons why:

  1. Many of the players whom I have played with have violated the Summoner's Code in ways that (according to the Code) should receive either an immediate temporary ban or easily a permanent ban. 5-10 of these offenders I personally kept track of during the three months after their offense, and none of them received any punishment that restricted their gameplay (they all continued to consistently play over those three months, which shows that no temp or perma bans were received).

  2. Most players (if not all players) don't want to be banned, you are correct. However, you are wrong in stating that most of them don't want to be ***holes. Many of them revel in how verbally abusive they can be, especially if they are queued with some friends who will support and add to their verbal abuse agaisnt other teammates or enemies.

  3. As I have mentioned to other people in this thread, I am sure that we have all played with players who proudly say that they can do whatever they want, because RIOT has never and will never punish them for how they consistently verbal abuse and intentionally troll. I understand that sometimes they are then punished even if they think that they won't be, but many of those players are the ones that I kept track of who received no temp or perma ban (when it was quite obviously deserved according to the Code's standards).

So in my opinion, there is something wrong with how the automated system is working that is being unsuccessful at detecting and removing a large majority of the worst Code offenders from this game. Why? I have no idea. But until RIOT steps off of their high horse acting like their system is perfect (sorry, don't mean to sound mean but it's true), then it will continue to happen.

Dehitay2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ZRYZ5Hik,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-07-25T21:22:59.419+0000)

Give me some ideas on how it could be improved. I'd really love nothing more than to make things perfect, but I understand that is an impossible goal. I feel we've make a lot of positive improvements and still have a lot more we can make. That being said, there may be a lot of things that we haven't thought of and it would be valuable to hear any actionable ideas.

Reinstate the tribunal asap. Record gameplays so that they can be sent in with cases in the tribunal and allow summoners to highlight time frames where problem players were being problematic when they file a report. Then if it receives enough guilties and it's a bannable offense, send it off to a Riot staff member for a final review to ban.

The tribunal is pretty much going to always be better when it comes to identifying trolls, intentional feeders, intentional afkers, and probly even bots. But even if it's not better than the automated system at identifying bots, it should still expediate the ban rate on bots to every judgement case instead of the annoyingly spaced out ban waves Riot is currently using. I understand people are generally lazy and don't want to have to update their bot detection algorithms more than necessary, but is it really worth pissing off the player base to the extent that "our lack of desire to constantly work on bot detection is more important to us than keeping bots out of your games as efficiently as possible" makes us feel. The tribunal actually doesn't have to be updated in the same way that bot detection software would be either, so it's a two pronged attack. Just expediate the rate at which the tribunal gets and deals with bot reports and you'll make a hell of a lot of people happy.

Urf Mode Is Life1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ZRYZ5Hik,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-07-25T21:22:59.419+0000)

Give me some ideas on how it could be improved. I'd really love nothing more than to make things perfect, but I understand that is an impossible goal. I feel we've make a lot of positive improvements and still have a lot more we can make. That being said, there may be a lot of things that we haven't thought of and it would be valuable to hear any actionable ideas.

Reform rates are actually very good. The vast majority of people never receive any sort of punishment. Those that receive a 10-game chat restriction rarely receive any other type of punishment. This goes on all the way up the escalation schedule (people reform). That is the reason why we issue perma-bans where we do. At that point the likelihood of reform is low.

The really tough thing is that the number of people who are unsportsmanlike or 'toxic' (I hate that word) is actually not that high relative to the population. But the likelihood of encountering unsportsmanship is raised because you have 9 other players in each game, and it only takes one bad game from someone to hurt your experience. The majority of the time this is from otherwise well mannered people who are having an off day.

PS I also upvoted you, because you posted about something that is important to you, and it seems like you do care.

your "population" numbers are so jacked... i know a friend of mine legit has over 20 different accounts, and has opened up well into the 50+ account range and i know many other players ( atleast 10 ) who have well into the double digits worth of accounts. So your statistics are based off fabrications and not "active" accounts, and by active i mean accounts that have been used frequently as opposed to just how many accounts there are in a F2P game

Xidphel9 votes

or defending thier pride

You mute, you report. Pride secured.

scazzman3 votes

{quoted}

You mute, you report. Pride secured.

tell me. if someone told you to your face in real life. you should have been aborted, and your mother was a south korean prostitute, and that you should do us all a favor and commit suicide. that you would be able to not floor the person. let alone avoid saying something back to them. also you cannot mute in pregame lobby. so they have roughly 5-7 minutes to say whatever the hell they want to you to try and get you to react before you can even do ANYTHING other than eat the dodge

EndlessSorcerer4 votes

Considering anybody who is willing to say that is someone whose opinion I couldn't give less of a shit about, I'd just ignore them unless they tried to get physical.

Why should I care about what someone that stupid says? Just laugh at their idiocy and mute them, then report them after the game.

scazzman1 votes

{quoted}

Considering anybody who is willing to say that is someone whose opinion I couldn't give less of a shit about, I'd just ignore them unless they tried to get physical.

Why should I care about what someone that stupid says?

are you jesus? because anyone else wouldnt have that kind of self control

EndlessSorcerer4 votes

Nope, I just have a tendency to laugh at stupidity and disregard the opinions of those who I believe are idiots.

Why give them the satisfaction of reacting to them? That's all they are really looking for, so just deny them their enjoyment.

SmokedAlmonds4 votes

Pretty much this.

I never understood why people get so worked up over people who are obviously just trying to push their buttons.

Xidphel2 votes

Happened to me once when I was having a bad game. Was a bit pissed off [UNDERSTATEMENT ALERT]. And then there was this guy saying I should get a refund on dragon trainer trist and never play her.

That actually made me feel better. Nothing like a little humor from someone obviously trying to make you rage and failing miserably.

VoidStaresBack3 votes

Yeah, most rational human beings would. I don't even acknowledge toxic players in chat outside of maybe saying "hehe" when they say something toxic that is particularly entertaining. Same goes for real life: if I'm dealing with an asshole who's yelling stupid shit, I'll just let that stand for itself and reveal just how immature the person is and move on. It's literally not worth even acknowledging, much less picking a fight over.

scazzman2 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, most rational human beings would. I don't even acknowledge toxic players in chat outside of maybe saying "hehe" when they say something toxic that is particularly entertaining. Same goes for real life: if I'm dealing with an asshole who's yelling stupid shit, I'll just let that stand for itself and reveal just how immature the person is and move on. It's literally not worth even acknowledging, much less picking a fight over.

not everyone has the emotional capacity to do that. and many people play league to get away from real life issues.

VoidStaresBack1 votes

Yeah I can understand that, sorry for the tone of my first post, it was a little presumptuous. If you actually have to deal with people who are incredibly toxic in the starting lobby chat (I've never encountered one, but I have no doubt that they exist), that really sucks and I'm sorry that happens. I mean, it sucks in general to have an asshole yelling, but since it's harder to mute in the lobby it's worse there.

Perhaps a partial solution to counter-raging on Riot's part would be making muting people in the lobby easier to do, and on your part to mute anyone in-game if you get the remotest inkling that they're a rager/flamer/whatever?

HexaDecimel5 votes

Suggesting that you lack the emotional capacity to have a little self control is just an excuse to make no attempt at improving your self and creating change.

Xidphel1 votes

Problem with real life is that I don't have the option to take that person's voice. In this game, I do. Therefore I take that option.

Deep Terror Nami7 votes

if someone told you to your face in real life.

I would look at them with pity, for they are probably of low intelligence or not well-off in life. Their existence would be dismissed from my acknowledgment and I'd continue on with my life. By the time I left high school I finally understood how truly insignificant that crap is.

also you cannot mute in pregame lobby

If you open up your social tab and add them to your block list, they will be muted in the lobby.

scazzman2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ZRYZ5Hik,comment-id=000000000002,timestamp=2016-07-24T04:17:03.962+0000)

If you open up your social tab and add them to your block list, they will be muted in the lobby.

i did not know that until you said so. this being the case. there should be some sort of indication of this in client. in addition. there should be a setting in game for "only chat with people on my friends list" which would block chat for anyone not on your friends list both ingoing and outgoing

Deep Terror Nami6 votes

there should be some sort of indication of this in client.

I suggest bringing this up in the Alpha Client Discussion when they are working on social or lobby systems.

there should be a setting in game for "only chat with people on my friends list"

No, there should definitely not be an option to prevent lobby chat by default. That time is frequently crucial to preparing for the match due to the nature of this game. The amount of people that are significantly affected by this chat or are personally unable to utilize it (can't read the region language) are so small that the option would do far more to inhibit this than protect anyone.

More from Player Behavior

More by scazzman