ulterior motives when reporting

scazzman·Sep 30, 2016·2 votes·801 views

ive brought this up before, but im deeply concerned about the direction the community's attitude is going with reports, im concerned that a majority of people who report do so validly. but for the wrong reasons morally. rather then trying to report toxic players to better the community. most people just report people who think will make them lose.

example. player x is toxic and 0/10/0 player y is also toxic but goes 20/0/20 player z report player x. but ignores player y

22 Comments

TrulyBlandSep 30, 20166 votes

Yes, you've brought this up before... and I still fail to see what your actual problem is.

It would be a problem if we were actively rewarding people for reporting (in which case we would encourage them in their quasi-wrong behaviour)... but the way it is, they help better the community whether they are trying to do that or not. And since the number of reports per game doesn't actually matter, the people that are good but toxic will at most be punished marginally slower, since all the system needs to work at full efficiency is a single person per game that reports for the right reasons. They'd still be punished at half the speed if only 5% of reporters would do so for the right reasons... which sounds far-fetched imho.

scazzmanSep 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Yes, you've brought this up before... and I still fail to see what your actual problem is.

It would be a problem if we were actively rewarding people for reporting (in which case we would encourage them in their quasi-wrong behaviour)... but the way it is, they help better the community whether they are trying to do that or not. And since the number of reports per game doesn't actually matter, the people that are good but toxic will at most be punished marginally slower, since all the system needs to work at full efficiency is a single person per game that reports for the right reasons. They'd still be punished at half the speed if only 5% of reporters would do so for the right reasons... which sounds far-fetched imho.

the problem is that it undermines everything that riot supposedly stands for as a company. and it feeds into the toxicity by punishing people for poor play as opposed to being negative

TrulyBlandSep 30, 20162 votes

Bad player, negative behaviour => Punish Good player, negative behaviour => Slower punish Bad player, positive/neutral behaviour => No punish Good player, positive/neutral behaviour => No punish

How is this system "punishing people for poor play as opposed to being negative"?

XinZhao2WinNhaoSep 30, 20162 votes

Skill shouldn't matter at all. That's the problem. It's not fair if you make skill matter in how fast someone gets punished.

TrulyBlandSep 30, 20162 votes

But one report is all that's necessary. So the only time good players are not punished as quickly is when literally nobody reports that person in a game where they should have been reported. And there's no way to fix that situation. No matter how well thought out your justice system is, if people don't report a crime, there's nothing you can do, outside of trying to "educate" the masses that being bad is not against the rules.

XinZhao2WinNhaoOct 1, 20161 votes

Here's a way.

When you report someone, you have to make an explanation before you can press submit. In other words, right now you can leave the explanation blank, but I think that it would be better if you couldn't. That way you'd have to actually explain how they were toxic. Then the system cross checks the entire game for players who behave that way. In other words, instead of reporting a person, you're now reporting a behavior. That'd scare away the people who report for being bad, because they know that there's no valid explanation for that.

scazzmanOct 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Here's a way.

When you report someone, you have to make an explanation before you can press submit. In other words, right now you can leave the explanation blank, but I think that it would be better if you couldn't. That way you'd have to actually explain how they were toxic. Then the system cross checks the entire game for players who behave that way. In other words, instead of reporting a person, you're now reporting a behavior. That'd scare away the people who report for being bad, because they know that there's no valid explanation for that.

i like this idea

TrulyBlandOct 2, 20162 votes

The problem is, I think this might generally discourage people from reporting. And with the way the system works, the more (valid) reports there are, the better the automated part of the system works, since it has more data points. And that's just going from the valid reports for valid reasons; as mentioned, even reports made against people "for being bad", can help clean up the community. If you are scaring away people from reporting toxic players for the wrong reasons, you are helping the toxic players.

The thing is, it seems to me like you and Scazzman are trying to fix this problem from the wrong direction. We shouldn't try to make it more difficult for bad players to be reported/banned for toxic behaviour, we should make it easier for good players to be reported/banned for toxic behaviour.

The current system might be unfair to bad toxic players, but turning the system into a more lenient one is unfair to every non-toxic player.

XinZhao2WinNhaoOct 2, 20161 votes

My goal for that suggestion is not to turn the system into a more lenient one, though I gotta say that some of the rules on "gg ez" are way too harsh, but that's not what I'm talking about here.

Here, I'm talking about making sure people have a reason to report someone, even if it's gg ez. The rules are not more lenient, but people just have to have a reason to report people now - so deserved reports will still be filed, but it discourages false reports since you can't make up a fake reason anymore. It's just like the fact that you can't sue people for no reason - even the most frivolous lawsuits have to have a reason, as silly as the reasons are. Also frivolous lawsuits are discouraged because you have to spend lawyer money and your time to make them IN ADDITION to them doing nothing. If you lose you probably also have to pay the other person's lawyer fees. Frivolous reports go unchecked in league besides the fact that they do nothing. People can send in as many frivolous reports as they want.

If anything it's actually harsher, because it means that if you did something wrong, even if you personally don't get directly reported you could still be punished because a behavior you did was reported.

scazzmanSep 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Bad player, negative behaviour => Punish Good player, negative behaviour => Slower punish Bad player, positive/neutral behaviour => No punish Good player, positive/neutral behaviour => No punish

How is this system "punishing people for poor play as opposed to being negative"?

because they arent being reported for being toxic. theyre being reported for sucking. and happened to be toxic

xXRaichopXxSep 30, 20161 votes

Yeah....people just HAPPEN to be toxic...

c0unt3rattackJan 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Yeah....people just HAPPEN to be toxic...

nonono. the game makes you and courages to do so.

being toxic is stupid way of saying negativity. ppl dont understand difference between being critical and having bad mentality. ppl dont understand that the critic they get from other players could be constuctive as player. but ppl see it as an personal insult so they get triggered by it. not just because of the chat. the game and ppl's background effects this. this is how. ppl come to this game from different parts of the world with different motives to play the game. when the motives wont match in game. it creates conflict in most cases among ppl with goal in mind "high compativity players" and players with no goal in mind "fun aspect seekers". when game is made to be about winning. and the winning is the fun aspect of this game. LoL has become so win centered game. ppl see the playing the game as a chore and get anxiety and stress from it. so outburst of emotion is acceptable. buut when you invest daily on the game you "enjoy" playing. you become committed to it and see winning is the goal in this game. when it doesnt meet the expectations you start getting frustrated and relive the bad emotion on other players. because they dont know how to relif themselves after bad results. toxic players are like bad athletes. brutes with hell lot of practise but bad education how to be better in the game without coaching. ppl watch pros do it so they start to think they also are them just because they are playing the same game. With proper guidance on how to respect other ppl in game and real life. game could be better game like ever before and reporting system wouldnt be needed. take winning out of the game. then maybe ppl start to move away from the negative bashing attitude they have for the game.

Chill [slayer-jinx-catface]

nerak23Jan 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

nonono. the game makes you and courages to do so.

being toxic is stupid way of saying negativity. ppl dont understand difference between being critical and having bad mentality. ppl dont understand that the critic they get from other players could be constuctive as player. but ppl see it as an personal insult so they get triggered by it. not just because of the chat. the game and ppl's background effects this. this is how. ppl come to this game from different parts of the world with different motives to play the game. when the motives wont match in game. it creates conflict in most cases among ppl with goal in mind "high compativity players" and players with no goal in mind "fun aspect seekers". when game is made to be about winning. and the winning is the fun aspect of this game. LoL has become so win centered game. ppl see the playing the game as a chore and get anxiety and stress from it. so outburst of emotion is acceptable. buut when you invest daily on the game you "enjoy" playing. you become committed to it and see winning is the goal in this game. when it doesnt meet the expectations you start getting frustrated and relive the bad emotion on other players. because they dont know how to relif themselves after bad results. toxic players are like bad athletes. brutes with hell lot of practise but bad education how to be better in the game without coaching. ppl watch pros do it so they start to think they also are them just because they are playing the same game. With proper guidance on how to respect other ppl in game and real life. game could be better game like ever before and reporting system wouldnt be needed. take winning out of the game. then maybe ppl start to move away from the negative bashing attitude they have for the game.

Chill [slayer-jinx-catface]

Just courios, why necro this thread ?

TrulyBlandSep 30, 20163 votes

I didn't say they were. But they are being punished for being toxic.

archerno1Sep 30, 20162 votes

What does it matter what others choose to report? If player Y is toxic towards someone, that someone will report him. Report is personal choice, you shouldnt care about other peoples reports, only yours.

XinZhao2WinNhaoSep 30, 20162 votes

It's not fair to create a community that condones bad behavior as long as they're good at the game.

Would it be fair if there was a community that always looks the other way when an accountant robs a bank, but calls the cops when a pizza delivery guy robs a bank?

There already is a bit of this when the large corporations have their big powerful lawyers and lobbyists helping them skirt the law, and we're trying to change that.

XinZhao2WinNhaoSep 30, 20161 votes

I upvoted. I agree with you this isn't fair.

xXRaichopXxSep 30, 20161 votes

you forgot this

https://giphy.com/gifs/ultimate-kappa-MGLPENCNLcy8o

EvilDustManSep 30, 20161 votes

go home

Deep Terror NamiOct 1, 20161 votes

It only takes a single report to flag a match for review. If none of the other 9 players (or whatever number depending on the mode) reported them, then that player obviously didn't cause them enough trouble to care.

Are you proposing that Riot goes and looks for players to punish even though nobody reported them, or are you suggesting Riot reduce/remove punishments for players that were reported and punished for toxic behavior but also had a poor score?

most people just report people who think will make them lose

I don't remember seeing a poll on this. I'd like to contribute my vote if you could direct me to it. I don't recall Riot putting that info out, either, so I could use your source for later referencing if they did.

scazzmanOct 1, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=XNBJEj2p,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-10-01T00:05:49.412+0000)

It only takes a single report to flag a match for review. If none of the other 9 players (or whatever number depending on the mode) reported them, then that player obviously didn't cause them enough trouble to care.

Are you proposing that Riot goes and looks for players to punish even though nobody reported them, or are you suggesting Riot reduce/remove punishments for players that were reported and punished for toxic behavior but also had a poor score?

I don't remember seeing a poll on this. I'd like to contribute my vote if you could direct me to it. I don't recall Riot putting that info out, either, so I could use your source for later referencing if they did.

i actually like the idea of not needing to be reported to be banned for certain offenses such as racial slurs. the other suggestion i had, was increasing the weight of reports on players who are reported but had a good score

Kei143Oct 1, 20161 votes

you are assuming that everyone has the same reporting patterns.

even if 1 person reporting the toxic 20/0/20 (typically the one getting flamed by the toxic), then the toxic will be felt with the same ways as the bad & toxic.