Boards›Player Behavior

Why have a dodge penalty for bots, or for that matter at all?

Incognonymous·Jan 31, 2016·3 votes·2,852 views

I want to jungle. Normally, I'd play Teambuilder, but of course it was removed. To date, I have yet to actually receive my Primary role, jungler, using Dynamic Queue. So I got to bots, call jungle, lock in Skarner. Cue player A, who hasn't said anything all chat, never does, absolutely last pick, locks in jungle Elise, to the chagrin of the other players who came to my defense. With no options left, I dodge. I log in, only to see that I have a time penalty?

Why? It was bots. I communicated. This person didn't. This person receives no penalty for inconveniencing everyone else, and wouldn't have if we had gone in to the game with a double jungle. Meanwhile, I only cost the three other people a 30 second queue.

Keep in mind: had this been a real Ranked game, or god forbid a promotional, that would've come at a serious cost to me. All I'm asking is why? Dodging is the most effective antitrolling technique in situations where pregame lobby foreshadows the shitstorm to follow. Punishment after the fact doesn't work. The justice system in this game is absolutely laughable, give some power back to the people and allow penalty-less dodging where it's very FUCKING obvious a teammate has no interests in cooperating with the rest of the team.

Or put in a kick option.

25 Comments

disregardableJan 31, 20167 votes

So everyone can actually get into a game instead of endless dodges of "I don't like this team/I didn't get my champ of choice".

IncognonymousJan 31, 20162 votes

{quoted}

So everyone can actually get into a game instead of endless dodges of "I don't like this team/I didn't get my champ of choice".

If Dynamic Queue worked as intended, everyone would get their role.

Also, "I don't like this team" seems like a perfectly valid reason not to spend the next 30 minutes playing with them. Explain how it isn't.

SmokedAlmondsJan 31, 20161 votes

{quoted} Also, "I don't like this team" seems like a perfectly valid reason not to spend the next 30 minutes playing with them. Explain how it isn't.

On paper, I agree. But riot has tried reducing dodge penalties in the past. So I have seen first hand what happens and it was a nightmare. It took so long to get a game because people would dodge every time all 5 positions weren't what they considered the best at their role.

SmokedAlmondsJan 31, 20162 votes

There needs to be something to make you consider not dodging or people dodge for every little thing. You benefit from dodge penalties existing every time you play by not having to go through champ select multiple times every game. It does suck when you have valid reasons to dodge which is why I wish they would track the frequency people dodge at and apply penalties accordingly. Rather than reset it every day for everyone.

As for bots, I have always been on the fence about this. It's hard for me to consider this objectively since I don't really consider bots games to be significant at all. That said, just because I think bot games are meaningless doesn't mean that others don't. I'm not sure there is actually any reason to treat them differently other than "I don't personally care about them".

IncognonymousJan 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

There needs to be something to make you consider not dodging or people dodge for every little thing. You benefit from dodge penalties existing every time you play by not having to go through champ select multiple times every game. It does suck when you have valid reasons to dodge which is why I wish they would track the frequency people dodge at and apply penalties accordingly. Rather than reset it every day for everyone.

As for bots, I have always been on the fence about this. It's hard for me to consider this objectively since I don't really consider bots games to be significant at all. That said, just because I think bot games are meaningless doesn't mean that others don't. I'm not sure there is actually any reason to treat them differently other than "I don't personally care about them".

Something. You mean. Series loss for promotional? Loss of LP otherwise? That's harsh. That's not just harsh, that's retarded.

MeilinIIJan 31, 20162 votes

No it's not. Bots is one thing, but in ranked there would be nothing but trolling if there was no LP penalty for dodges. Do you know the amount of people who flame people for playing something that's not an LCS OP champ? I've seen people flame my premades and I for playing Jinx/Nami bot and Ryze top last season. If they could dodge with no penalty, it'd be neverending.

IncognonymousJan 31, 20162 votes

{quoted}

No it's not. Bots is one thing, but in ranked there would be nothing but trolling if there was no LP penalty for dodges. Do you know the amount of people who flame people for playing something that's not an LCS OP champ? I've seen people flame my premades and I for playing Jinx/Nami bot and Ryze top last season. If they could dodge with no penalty, it'd be neverending.

If bots is one thing, why support dodge penalties for bots? It takes half the time to find a lobby.

So by not dodging, you'd rather play with someone who would flame you for a champ pick? Jesus fucking Christ. No wonder this community is not taken seriously.

MeilinIIJan 31, 20161 votes

Flaming doesn't bother me. I've worked for game companies and I've seen enough salty brats get banned that I see the humor in it. But working professionals don't have time to wait over an hour for a game, so yes, I don't like dodgers except in very, very extreme circumstances and someone playing an off-meta jungler like Thresh, Vayne, or Fiddles is not worth the time I lose from dodges.

Tonyob20Feb 1, 20161 votes

Dude, as much as flaming doesn't bother you, it bothers other people. Sometimes, you just don't wanna have to listen to things like "get cancer" and so on. And of course you can mute, but as a "working professional" you should know that keeping in contact with your teammates is important. Pings don't replace words.

MeilinIIFeb 1, 20161 votes

Actually they do. No one who ignores pings is going to respond to passive-aggressive chat, or even nice chat. The fact remains the queue dodging is inconvenient, and right now it's just inconvenient enough not to be a massive pain if you do it occasionally. It's as good as it can get without causing other problems.

Tonyob20Feb 1, 20161 votes

I disagree. ^^ Some people spend the game just flaming left and right instead of playing (helping teammates, paying attention to who pings where, and so on. Even to the point where it's completely illogical. "Tonyob20 signals enemies are missing" top gets ganked "FCKING RETARD Y NO SS". You want me to send a postcard or what?) I'm not talking about nice chat or agressive chat, I'm talking about informative chat. If he types ss instead of pinging and I muted him, and I get ganked, I guess I have a problem, don't I? Not everyone plays professionally all the time. I say there should be better solutions out there. As said, the kick function might be interesting. 1st person in the room gets kick rights, maximum 3 kicks. Kicked person returns to queue. If someone kicks you, it's probably not a person you'd want to play with anyway.

SmokedAlmondsJan 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Something. You mean. Series loss for promotional? Loss of LP otherwise? That's harsh. That's not just harsh, that's retarded.

I don't consider any of those things harsh except for maybe loss of promos. But the issue there is that the added value of promos gives added desire to win promos increases the value of dodging. Which decreases the disincentive from the less severe penalties.

Like I said. My solution to this is to have dodges tracked like other behavior. So that a guy who dodges a troll once a month can be treated differently than the guy who dodges games every day.

The way I see it is that dodging a troll is simply worth the cost and that is what they are going for. There is basically no penalty for dodging that would ever make me reconsider dodging. Dodge penalties are simply the lesser of two evils. If you have a solution that doesn't increase dodging for perceived lower chances of winning then im sure riot(and me) would love to hear it. As it stands dodge penalties are a necessary evil.

IncognonymousJan 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The way I see it is that dodging a troll is simply worth the cost and that is what they are going for. There is basically no penalty for dodging that would ever make me reconsider dodging. Dodge penalties are simply the lesser of two evils. If you have a solution that doesn't increase dodging for perceived lower chances of winning then im sure riot(and me) would love to hear it. As it stands dodge penalties are a necessary evil.

A kick option in lobby, for a start.

Tonyob20Feb 1, 20162 votes

Hmm good point. 1st person in the lobby gets kick rights. Of course some are gonna be dicks about that but an equal amount probably won't.

IncognonymousFeb 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Hmm good point. 1st person in the lobby gets kick rights. Of course some are gonna be dicks about that but an equal amount probably won't.

Like a Captain in Teambuilder. I guess it could be vote based as well.

SmokedAlmondsFeb 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

A kick option in lobby, for a start.

I have been back and forth on whether or not I think this is a good idea. It would be nice at times for sure, but I think it would be way to common for it to be used to avoid games with less than perfect teams and significantly impact games starting. If it required a 4 person vote to disband a lobby it might be ok.

Tonyob20Feb 1, 20161 votes

Majority vote

Tonyob20Feb 1, 20162 votes

I get a penalty for every game I dodge. Why? I only dodge games where the support character is crappy or when people choose things like soraka jungle. Other than that I put up with about any out of meta stuff.

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 1, 20161 votes

I don't know if I agree with that first part. In team builder I had gotten to the point where I wouldn't dodge no matter how bad the team comp was. My thinking was just play it out and see what happens. And I hate to break it to you but the games I had with Malz support and Shaco support were losses and I was probably just better off dodging. If anything the penalty needs to be changed or that you at least get one free dodge or something. Because sometimes you just wont win with the comp you get no matter how hard you try.

Tonyob20Feb 1, 20162 votes

Agreed. Just posted a thread to that myself an hour ago. Referencing to instalocks and trollpicks.

No flash no lifeFeb 1, 20162 votes

Apart from what everyone else has said, I'd like to note that your only valid reason for dodging is the player's refusal to communicate, and I don't see it as valid.

In a bot game, the most efficient setup in terms of getting resources as a team is having 3 laners and 2 junglars. I see absolutely no problem with what the said player has done. I've done several duo-junglar bot games myself and they were massive gank fests. The only issue with doing so is that the matches tend to be too one-sided, end too early, and yield very little ip.

IncognonymousFeb 1, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=No flash no life,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=OggNEEEQ,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-02-01T00:25:07.291+0000)

Apart from what everyone else has said, I'd like to note that your only valid reason for dodging is the player's refusal to communicate, and I don't see it as valid.

In a bot game, the most efficient setup in terms of getting resources as a team is having 3 laners and 2 junglars. I see absolutely no problem with what the said player has done. I've done several duo-junglar bot games myself and they were massive gank fests. The only issue with doing so is that the matches tend to be too one-sided, end too early, and yield very little ip.

"Refusal to communicate" use to be a reportable offense. If it was significant enough to warrant a report, why would it not be worth a dodge?

I've done double jungle. That's not the point.

No flash no lifeFeb 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

"Refusal to communicate" use to be a reportable offense. If it was significant enough to warrant a report, why would it not be worth a dodge?

Hm, point made. While I wouldn't dodge it myself, I admit it may be worth for the rest of us.

However, you have to understand that even against bots you're still playing with others, and as long as you're not playing by yourself or with those who know what's coming at them in a custom game, dodging - originally unintended function of the game - still induces consequences. While I agree that it's just bots game, it's like a practice ground and taken lightly in most cases, there are others who do not share the same perspective and thus it is treated the same as any other game mode.

TrylobyteJan 31, 20161 votes

Dodging may be good for anti-trolling but, as was mentioned above, it is far and away more common to dodge because someone doesn't like their team or someone got a champion they didn't like or their main got banned or they didn't get the role they want or any number of other petty reasons. I remember when ARAM came out and it took half an hour to get a match because people dodged 9 times out of 10 because they got someone they didn't think was good. Imagine that in Ranked and think of all the hair you wouldn't have because you pulled it out of your scalp in frustration.

StephenizgodFeb 1, 20161 votes

because i don't like spending 40 minutes trying to get into a game going through countless pick/ban/pick's which takes forever only for some little baby to quit because they didnt get what they want... NEITHER DID ANYONE ELSE! I don't like playing support 9 out of 10 games but i do it because someone has to do it and i want to play...

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