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The whole singed support fiasco cuts deeper than just that one guy playing singed support

Mortekaiser··4 votes·2,046 views

TLDR AT BOTTOM FOR CAVEMEN WITH ADHD

THIS POST IS JUST ABOUT SUPPORT SINGED ITSELF NOT THE PLAYER OR IF THE PLAYER IS TOXIC THIS POST IS JUST ABOUT SUPPORT SINGED ITSELF NOT THE PLAYER OR IF THE PLAYER IS TOXIC THIS POST IS JUST ABOUT SUPPORT SINGED ITSELF NOT THE PLAYER OR IF THE PLAYER IS TOXIC (since people clearly missed the point)

If riot is going to start altering their previous attitude towards off-meta picks and wacky stratagems, it's going to effect far more than just that guy who plays a bunch of singed support.

-One Tricks One trick players are probably going to get hit the hardest with this sort of attitude shift. They already get a brunt of abuse if they have a bad game on their champion, but if Riot starts banning for not yielding to the desires of teammates, where would it stop? Could a 3 man queue abuse 2 solo players or a 2 man for not following their gameplan? If the one trick guy does well, then fine, but if not, he'll just get reported for not communicating or not working with the team.

It will establish an even more toxic atmosphere to play in, where a meta basically becomes enforced rather than just implied.

-Risk taking Sometimes, to break a current meta up and make something new and even more glorious, experimentation is required. Sometimes it doesn't work. Sometimes it does! And when it does, it's usually in a big way. Ranked is where you've gotta test it, in bulk through trial and error.

"But NORMALS NORMALS NORMALS" Normals only do so much. Ranked is a serious environment where you can test your metabreaking strategies. Normals are more for just basics of the game as far as objective control and basic champion interactions. Ranked is not just a test of how well you can play your champion and role. There are so many more variables that go into it. How well can you play with teammates? Perhaps those teammates don't want to listen to your specific desires? If, for example, that singed support player types out his intentions and how he plans to play the game. The botlaner still picks something squishy and immobile into 2 people when he knows that he isn't going to have someone with them 100% of the time, is it really truly that singed player's fault when the player ignores the fact that he's alone for a bit against a player, and dies to 2 people?

Ranked is not just a test of your own personal mechanical skill. Variables such as how well you work with others, team forming ability, working around specific picks on your team (one tricks included), counterpicking, even how well you can dodge terrible matchups, are just some of the things you have to consider when playing Ranked.

In the end, the simple fact remains. People who deserve the rank will get there eventually, and people who don't will never retain higher ranks for long, if they even achieve them. So I say let that guy play support singed. If he got to a specific rank through some games, good for him! He earned it and deserved it, because he knew how to play the Ranked game enough to get there. Playing a lot of ranked mode will beat shitty habits out of you by force (if you bother to learn from the games you play.) If that singed support guy has fun and does well with

-"Uh he's not playing support if he's not botlane!" See: Roaming supports, the very existence of Bard, my ranked games where sometimes my supports give up on botlane to go help get kills elsewhere

-But "NEGATIVE ENVIRONMENT I CAN'T PLAY WITH SUPPORT SINGED I DONT KNOW HOW TO" I'd call that a deficit on the player's end, not the Singed support's end.

-So are you lowkey supporting elo-terrorism? Hell no. Elo-terrorism happens when shit like AFK'ers and immensely toxic shitbags start playing in my games. Don't want that, never did.

-But it makes my tiny ant brain angry! I can't deal with it! IT PISS ME OFF UGH That can't be helped. But hey, did you get more deaths than kills in one of your recent games? Or perhaps have a bad game in general, as is bound to happen in league of legends? If so, you're pissing me off! Should I report you?

-[Something other than picking support singed that player might have done to deserve a ban] Well, if he did stupid shit like AFK, be very toxic, or intentionally feed, then ban him for that. Don't ban him for playing support singed though.

CAVEMAN TL;DR SUPPORT SINGED DUMB, NO BANNABLE. BAN (for support singed itself) CREATE BAD PRECEDENT, CAUSE MANY MORE TOXIN GAMES PLAY RANKED, GET TO DESERVED ELO RANKED BEAT STUPID OUT OF STUPID CAVEMAN RANKED HAVE LAYERS. LIKE ONION. CAVEMAN MUST LOOK AT ALL LAYER, NOT ONE

I probably forgot something. Hopefully not, though.

56 Comments

Kei1436 votes

not sure if caveman just not updated to the news or trolling.

Mortekaiser2 votes

{quoted}

not sure if caveman just not updated to the news or trolling.

what news? all I know is someone is being threatened with a ban for playing support singed, even though he clearly establishes what he is going to do before the game.

I establish, in the post, why it is bad to ban purely for support singed. banning for other matters, though, is entirely out of the scope of the concern of my post

MeilinII5 votes

He wasn't playing support, he was playing double jg without the consent of his teammates

Mortekaiser3 votes

{quoted}

He wasn't playing support, he was playing double jg without the consent of his teammates

teammates should not dictate the course of how a player should play the game to such an extent

I am perfectly fine with people playing differently from the meta. he wants to win, he's just playing in a different manner than what most people are used to.

I'll take that support singed guy in all of my ranked games, without a hesitation. i guarantee, after a while, i could whip out a 60% winrate with him.

ranked is not just a measure of your own skill, it's how well you work with others

President Swa1n2 votes

Even if he played a different role to what he was assigned without the consent of his team?

Mortekaiser2 votes

{quoted}

Even if he played a different role to what he was assigned without the consent of his team?

im fine with that. its ranked, if it works, then great! but if not, then he'll fall to a deserved elo

let the ranked system work shit like this out instead of worrying about suspending him. ranked beats shitty strategies out of players eventually

President Swa1n3 votes

The point is not about whether he wins. It's about whether the players on his team are having a positive experience. Much of the time, they were not as they weren't given a) sufficient time to react to his talk in champion select about what he was going to do and b) any choice as to whether they wanted to play without a support and instead a duo jungle.

It's really not that different to getting a role and simply not playing that role. That is certainly bannable.

Mortekaiser2 votes

{quoted}

The point is not about whether he wins. It's about whether the players on his team are having a positive experience. Much of the time, they were not as they weren't given a) sufficient time to react to his talk in champion select about what he was going to do and b) any choice as to whether they wanted to play without a support and instead a duo jungle.

It's really not that different to getting a role and simply not playing that role. That is certainly bannable.

"whether or not the team has a positive experience" is not a defense because that is far too subjective for this subject. should I then report teammates who go 1-12 in lane, even though they werent intending to lose, just had a bad game? he made the game a negative experience for me, under that notion he should get suspended because he made my game a negative experience.

there are a bunch of things that can make a game a "negative experience". it's ranked, tensions are high.

the player wants to win. that's all I need to know.

President Swa1n3 votes

Did that player that went 1/12 have a visible intention to ruin your day?

If no, no problem, don't report. Accidents happen.

If yes, report. Easy.

Adelaide Skyhart specifically got the role of Support when he queued up and never actually played Support. Even when his team asked him to.

Mortekaiser2 votes

{quoted}

Did that player that went 1/12 have a visible intention to ruin your day?

If no, no problem, don't report. Accidents happen.

If yes, report. Easy.

Adelaide Skyhart specifically got the role of Support when he queued up and never actually played Support. Even when his team asked him to.

he isn't trying to ruin anyone's day. he's trying to win. he plays support in a way that is vastly different to everyone else.

that is ok with me. the ranked system will either punish it or reward it depending on how successful the strategy is

President Swa1n3 votes

He INTENDED not to play Support. He plays Duo Jungle even when his team doesn't want him to. That is intentional.

Mortekaiser2 votes

{quoted}

He INTENDED not to play Support. He plays Duo Jungle even when his team doesn't want him to. That is intentional.

there's a difference between intentionally playing outside the role and intentionally losing.

the player is trying to win.

give me the support singed player and I'll work around him the best i can. if we lose, i won't just blame the support singed, since it is a team effort

Disulfiram1 votes

give me the support singed player and I'll work around him the best i can.

Ziggs bot, Garen top, Sivir mid.

Push all day.

The enemy jg can do nothing about it because he's being bullied by our double jg.

The enemy mid can't poke Sivir down (spellshield+lifesteal).

Pushing and sustaining is Garen's thing.

A 2v1 Ziggs will outlevel both his opponents fast (which on a mage is a huge advantage) and either get extremely farmed (if he has to play defensive against an aggressive dive duo), take their tower, get fed, or all of these.

I can totally see this work.

Mortekaiser1 votes

{quoted}

Ziggs bot, Garen top, Sivir mid.

Push all day.

The enemy jg can do nothing about it because he's being bullied by our double jg.

The enemy mid can't poke Sivir down (spellshield+lifesteal).

Pushing and sustaining is Garen's thing.

A 2v1 Ziggs will outlevel both his opponents fast (which on a mage is a huge advantage) and either get extremely farmed (if he has to play defensive against an aggressive dive duo), take their tower, get fed, or all of these.

I can totally see this work.

hell yeah. gimme that support singed and I'll play with it 100% of the time (if I had to adc I'll do it because apparently im the only one on earth that would try to work with it)

but he shouldn't have to queue with people already aware of the strat to stop running the risk of getting reported

TrulyBland2 votes

{quoted}

hell yeah. gimme that support singed and I'll play with it 100% of the time (if I had to adc I'll do it because apparently im the only one on earth that would try to work with it)

but he shouldn't have to queue with people already aware of the strat to stop running the risk of getting reported

If only there was a way to make people in your team aware of the strategy you are using before they pick their champions. Riot should really add some form of communication system during champion selection.

President Swa1n1 votes

There's a difference between playing outside the role and intentionally losing in that they are different actions. But they are similar in that they are both negative actions.

Saying he's trying to win is irrelevant. Feeders are not the only ones that are punished. Flamers, AFK'ers and those with negative attitude are too.

HE intended not to play support but was assigned the role of support. That is punishable as long as his team didn't agree to it.

If his team did approve before hand, then by all means, he should go for it. The problem arises when he plays duo jungle instead of his assigned role without consent.

Mortekaiser1 votes

{quoted}

There's a difference between playing outside the role and intentionally losing in that they are different actions. But they are similar in that they are both negative actions.

Saying he's trying to win is irrelevant. Feeders are not the only ones that are punished. Flamers, AFK'ers and those with negative attitude are too.

HE intended not to play support but was assigned the role of support. That is punishable as long as his team didn't agree to it.

If his team did approve before hand, then by all means, he should go for it. The problem arises when he plays duo jungle instead of his assigned role without consent.

the team cannot just shout someone down if they disagree with the methods. that isn't how this game should work and that isn't how it works.

that is a dangerous stance to take because you target more than just those guys who take smite on support singed. you've targeted a large group of people. one tricks, people who can't speak english, people with chat mutes, and people who just outright disagree with the team.

for example: team, by themselves, say yasuo is open. I'm the toplaner. they're expecting me to pick yasuo, with no feedback from me, I'm off grabbing a drink before I pick. like fuck im going to pick yasuo when I don't play him. I pick mordekaiser instead. I know that pick and it's very comfortable for me into a lot of matchups. under your rule of "they didn't agree to it" they can now report me! I'm playing mordekaiser without consent!

fuck the team. they don't and shouldn't hold such power over players who may just outright disagree with a conventional way of doing things

so I just ignore them. perhaps a bad judgement call? sure, but you can't punish playing badly when it ALREADY IS PUNISHED BY THE RANKED SYSTEM.

who the hell cares what the team thinks? If I, personally, cared what the team thought 100% of the time, I could never have mained mordekaiser into diamond.

you labor under the delusion that the team is 100% benevolent and wise. play as many soloqueue games as I have and you'll realize that your team can actually be out to get you. there's a reason why I never hover my pick in ranked, because my own team could very well target ban me (they have in the past). players threaten to report over small shit. you could say something and it be worded poorly and they'll get triggered and feed intentionally while just going "oops" in chat to avoid punishment.

so I guess what I'm saying is support singed is just the result of the soloqueue community's treatment of each other. ban support singed for playing outside the role, and everyone will also start looking at one-tricks (and more!) and asking "why are they only playing one champion! they aren't trying to work with the team!!!!"

President Swa1n1 votes

No. No. NO.

You still fail to understand.

YOUR TEAM SHOULD HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING ON THE CHAMPION YOU PLAY, THE ITEMS YOU BUILD, THE SPELLS YOU TAKE AND THE DECISIONS YOU MAKE AS LONG AS YOU'RE TRYING TO WIN

The ONLY issue in this case is not that he played a bad champion, built wrong or whatever.

It is that HE IGNORED THE ROLE HE RECEIVED THROUGH CHAMPION SELECT.

As I've said, playing the role you get is a MUST, nothing else is. If you'd like to play a different role, just as so many others do, all you need is the approval of your team.

IT IS ONLY BECAUSE YOU RECEIVE A ROLE TO PLAY THAT YOU ARE EXPECTED TO DO SO BY DEFAULT. Players should respect this.

Mortekaiser1 votes

{quoted}

No. No. NO.

You still fail to understand.

YOUR TEAM SHOULD HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING ON THE CHAMPION YOU PLAY, THE ITEMS YOU BUILD, THE SPELLS YOU TAKE AND THE DECISIONS YOU MAKE AS LONG AS YOU'RE TRYING TO WIN

understand so far. glad we agree.

The ONLY issue in this case is not that he played a bad champion, built wrong or whatever.

ok.

It is that HE IGNORED THE ROLE HE RECEIVED THROUGH CHAMPION SELECT.

so? ultimately, that's just bad gameplay. riot doesn't ban for playing badly.

As I've said, playing the role you get is a MUST, nothing else is. If you'd like to play a different role, just as so many others do, all you need is the approval of your team.

no it isn't. bad gameplay and players aren't punished by riot, they're punished by the ranked system.

IT IS ONLY BECAUSE YOU RECEIVE A ROLE TO PLAY THAT YOU ARE EXPECTED TO DO SO BY DEFAULT. Players should respect this.

they should, because it generally is good gameplay. but if they don't, that is ok. they can get punished (or rewarded if they play well!) by the system and natural order will be maintained.

President Swa1n1 votes

So essentially what this boils down to then, is that you believe playing a role you are not assigned is not misbehavior, simply 'bad gameplay'.

I couldn't disagree more.

You are assigned a role to play. Not playing that role is toxic as your team expects you to play that role. It is no different to receiving Mid and just going Top because you feel like it.

Building Infinity Edge on Soraka = (probably) bad gameplay, not bannable if you're trying to win/ not trolling because it's a CHOICE that you MAKE and are ALLOWED to make.

Taking Cleanse/Barrier on any champion = (probably) bad gameplay, not bannable if you're trying to win/ not trolling because it's a CHOICE that YOU make and are ALLOWED to make.

Going Duo Jungle instead of Support = misbehavior, bannable because it is NOT your choice to make. YOU were ASSIGNED a role. This is not a player controlled factor. Making it one is punishable.

Mortekaiser1 votes

{quoted}

So essentially what this boils down to then, is that you believe playing a role you are not assigned is not misbehavior, simply 'bad gameplay'.

I couldn't disagree more.

You are assigned a role to play. Not playing that role is toxic as your team expects you to play that role. It is no different to receiving Mid and just going Top because you feel like it.

Building Infinity Edge on Soraka = (probably) bad gameplay, not bannable if you're trying to win/ not trolling because it's a CHOICE that you MAKE and are ALLOWED to make.

Taking Cleanse/Barrier on any champion = (probably) bad gameplay, not bannable if you're trying to win/ not trolling because it's a CHOICE that YOU make and are ALLOWED to make.

Going Duo Jungle instead of Support = misbehavior, bannable because it is NOT your choice to make. YOU were ASSIGNED a role. This is not a player controlled factor. Making it one is punishable.

and you are free to disagree. you listed a bunch of things that basically has no difference with each other to me.

who says doing the duo jungle thing is not supporting the team? the support is supporting the team. everyone's role is to support the team to win.

supports are not limited to jerking off the adc in the botlane.

President Swa1n1 votes

They aren't. Although Most people don't assume that's what they're going to be doing and so should be notified of the strategy beforehand.

Kei1433 votes

news for ya

ReadyxPlayerxOne4 votes

I fail to see your logic.

I don't see how a player who got penalized for consistently negative behavior has anything to do with playing off meta. I've played support singed. You can do it without being negative. It's a little like playing support volibear... you want to throw the guy over your head and make it hell for him to get back to the right position. I've even roamed with him and counter jungled and such.

It's one thing to work hard and help your team win using a champion the way they should be played in a particular role. There's a lot of off meta that can work if played right... such as how Teemo can literally play any position if you build him right (and you have literally never seen satan at worlds). It's an entirely different thing when your actions (regardless of win/loss outcomes) affect your team in a negative manner over the course of thousands of games.

You're defending a player with arguments that literally weren't part of the penalty. His "off meta" or "unique playstyle" didn't excuse him from creating a negative experience for his team. That's what got him penalized.

Honestly, I've seen a lot of people playing off meta lately cause of the new jungle and because of the singed support issue. And I'm sure they don't get penalties because they've been working well with their teams. Things like:

Jungle Leona Support Garen w/ ADC Quinn (it's a long time to be blind and silenced lol) Leblanc / Irelia bot lane Yi Mid Ryze Support Nasus Jungle / Support ALL TOP META! (It's really weird if the enemy can't counter it, I've seen the game won in 16 minutes with it) Rek'sai support Vayne Top Varus top Poppy Sup Jungle Ashe (Needs a double leash, so gotta tell your team if they're ok with it) Jungle Malzahar

And a whole ton of other stuff. You know what these players had in common? None of them forced their team to adapt to THEIR playstyle. They made it work without causing a really negative experience. None of these things are "meta" and none of this gets banned.

Mortekaiser3 votes

{quoted}

-snip-

I establish, in the post, why it is bad to ban purely for support singed. banning for other matters, though, is entirely out of the scope of the concern of my post

President Swa1n6 votes

In that case, your post is irrelevant. He was not banned for playing support Singed, he was banned for a lack of sufficient communication in order to play an off meta ROLE in a majority of his games

Mortekaiser2 votes

{quoted}

In that case, your post is irrelevant. He was not banned for playing support Singed, he was banned for a lack of sufficient communication in order to play an off meta ROLE in a majority of his games

he pastes a paragraph mentioning what he will do every game.

and it is impossible to communicate entire playstyles through typing to get nearly 3 million without carpal tunnel

and lack of sufficient communication? then explain chat mutes. if riot is truly concerned with communication or lack thereof, then chat mutes cannot exist.

President Swa1n3 votes

What I meant is that if you watch his streams, sometimes he only gives his team a few seconds to react to his wall of text, pasting it after all bans and picks.

In the cases where he informs early, he still does not allow what his team thinks of his off meta role strategy to affect his pick.

Mortekaiser1 votes

{quoted}

What I meant is that if you watch his streams, sometimes he only gives his team a few seconds to react to his wall of text, pasting it after all bans and picks.

In the cases where he informs early, he still does not allow what his team thinks of his off meta role strategy to affect his pick.

if i worried about what my team thought about my pick(s), i probably couldn't ever main mordekaiser.

the team shouldn't loom over players and force them to pick shit that they're uncomfortable with

TrulyBland5 votes

Then why is a support allowed to force an ADC into a lane they're uncomfortable with?

This is team game, ultimately your goal should be having a team composition everybody is at least a little bit comfortable with. That won't always work, of course, but that doesn't mean it's okay to consistently force a team composition/strategy onto four other people over a large amount of games without showing any flexibility and sometimes not even allowing them to actually adapt to your strategy.

What ever you pick, you are forcing your team to play with that champion in their team composition. Whatever strategy you employ with that champion forces your team to play with that strategy in mind. You cannot have a team game without being forced to anything, because a team game inherently forces you to play with other players.

President Swa1n4 votes

Furthermore, he queues for Support and doesn't play Support. He plays Duo Jungle. Why would that ever be allowed without consent?

Mortekaiser1 votes

{quoted}

Furthermore, he queues for Support and doesn't play Support. He plays Duo Jungle. Why would that ever be allowed without consent?

so? -the ranked system punishes bad gameplay and simultaneously rewards great gameplay -the "support" role isn't constrained to botlane. see: the existence of Bard; roaming supports in general; -supports who are trying to get things done, maybe not just in botlane, are supporting the team, not just the other botlane player.

Mortekaiser1 votes

{quoted}

Then why is a support allowed to force an ADC into a lane they're uncomfortable with?

This is team game, ultimately your gold should be having a team composition everybody is at least a little bit comfortable with. That won't always work, of course, but that doesn't mean it's okay to consistently force a team composition/strategy onto four other people over a large amount of games without showing any flexibility and sometimes not even allowing them to actually adapt to your strategy.

What ever you pick, you are forcing your team to play with that champion in their team composition. Whatever strategy you employ with that champion forces your team to play with that strategy in mind. You cannot have a team game without being forced to anything, because a team game inherently forces you to play with four other players.

if the adc is concerned with the lane being comfortable, they can pick around it. who the hell says they have to pick a marksman botlane, especially if they know they're going to be alone?

having a team composition that everyone is comfortable with is a moot point. ive seen great team comps lose and terrible team comps win.

if someone consistently picks a bad champion to go in the botlane, either he'll rise or fall based on how well he can do it. the ranked system already punishes someone doing badly, why does there need to be further, outside interference from Riot (in the form of bans) when it comes to that?

yes, someone would be forcing teams to play with champions they pick that are off meta, but I'm not going to fret over someone picking something strange and metabreaking. it reflects on the players of that team on how well they can work around picks like that as well as the player who is picking offmeta picks.

in the end, you can simply let the rank system punish team comps that don't work. punishing players for playing completely off meta and doing other things beyond the basic role is enforcing a meta.

TrulyBland3 votes

How can they pick around it when they are informed of the strategy last second? And even if... I thought your point was that you don't want other players to force you to play something they don't want to play. How can you now with a straight face say that four players should be forced to adapt to one player?

And you are focussing way too much on what is winning games. This is still a game, and games are meant to be enjoyable at least to some degree. And whether his strategy works or not, he is leaving the ADC in a situation where can do little to nothing and, yet again, not informing them about this being the case until it is too late to adapt to the situation. That is causing a horrible game experience for this player.

Mortekaiser1 votes

{quoted}

How can they pick around it when they are informed of the strategy last second? And even if... I thought your point was that you don't want other players to force you to play something they don't want to play. How can you now with a straight face say that four players should be forced to adapt to one player?

And you are focussing way too much on what is winning games. This is still a game, and games are meant to be enjoyable at least to some degree. And whether his strategy works or not, he is leaving the ADC in a situation where can do little to nothing and, yet again, not informing them about this being the case until it is too late to adapt to the situation. That is causing a horrible game experience for this player.

" How can they pick around it when they are informed of the strategy last second?" how can I counter my lane opponent when they can pick before me? same train of logic.

who says that four players are forced to adapt to one player? play whatever the hell you want man. play what you're comfortable with, I'd rather you play comfort picks than shit that looks good on paper but may not be something you can play at all.

"That is causing a horrible game experience for this player." too many things can cause a horrible game experience in this game. this cannot be an argument, unless we're talking about things like intentionally feeding, verbal toxicity, AFKs

what about players who can't speak english? are you going to ban those as well? I've had a bunch of those in my games and they're 100% not banned, so why would you ban for lack of communication when the standard expects us to not even speak english?

TrulyBland2 votes

how can I counter my lane opponent when they can pick before me? same train of logic.

No. Not at all. Not even remotely. Your team is supposed to work with you, the enemy isn't.

And you now switched back to the "comfortable" argument to which I again retort: Singed is forcing his own teammates into an uncomfortable lane. How is that any better than forcing an uncomfortable pick on somebody?

And who are you to say when horrible game experience can be an argument and when not? Intentionally/willingly creating a horrible game experience for others is the argument against these things. Why not apply the exact same argument in this case? (The intentionality being the reason btw, why non-english speakers are a different matter.)

Mortekaiser1 votes

{quoted}

same train of logic.

No. Not at all. Not even remotely. Your team is supposed to work with you, the enemy isn't.

And you now switched back to the "comfortable" argument to which I again retort: Singed is forcing his own teammates into an uncomfortable lane. How is that any better than forcing an uncomfortable pick on somebody?

And who are you to say when horrible game experience can be an argument and when not? Intentionally/willingly creating a horrible game experience for others is the argument against these things. Why not apply the exact same argument in this case? (The intentionality being the reason btw, why non-english speakers are a different matter.)

who says an off meta playstyle like singed support/jungle is intentionally trying to create a horrible experience? if that player is trying to win, I'd say he's at worst just a bad player and not intentionally trying to ruin games. and thats all I need to know

the players in this game need to calm down and let the ranked system weed shitty builds out

people can't get outraged at support singed with smite and ghost trying to win while others play a bunch of shit like ADC soraka top, or players who don't even speak english can cause even more anger and frustration at the game.

give me the support singed player, and I'll even go botlane to deal with 2 people alone. I'll do it, and ill learn it. give it to me in ALL of my games.

TrulyBland1 votes

That's why I added "willingly" in there as well, not only "intentionally". It's an intentional decision to play a pseudo-support, and he knows that it will make his ADCs laning phase horrible by not pointing it out in time to make sure the player can adapt to it in the form of picking the proper runes, masteries and champion for what will be mainly a 1v2 lane. Even if he wasn't aware of it immediately, he had a lot of games like this, so he should have learned after a couple of attempts. That means he's willingly creating a horrible experience for his teammate with his choice.

That's why, again, somebody not being able to speak english is an entirely different matter.

Mortekaiser1 votes

{quoted}

That's why I added "willingly" in there as well, not only "intentionally". It's an intentional decision to play a pseudo-support, and he knows that it will make his ADCs laning phase horrible by not pointing it out in time to make sure the player can adapt to it in the form of picking the proper runes, masteries and champion for what will be mainly a 1v2 lane. Even if he wasn't aware of it immediately, he had a lot of games like this, so he should have learned after a couple of attempts. That means he's willingly creating a horrible experience for his teammate with his choice.

That's why, again, somebody not being able to speak english is an entirely different matter.

yes, but it is a strategic reallocation of resources. perhaps one player may get boned and be forced to lane 1v2 (good players can play around this), but another player on the enemy team (the jungler) is going to have a tough time with 2 junglers able to constantly walk into his jungle and shrek his face in.

what if the support player feels going elsewhere is the key to victory? you don't always have to go botlane as a support. support is meant to support the team, not support a player who feels entitled to having some dude wipe their ass for them

if I'm playing into a difficult lane that I'm 100% going to lose, and get camped, can I report the jungler for not supporting me and making the game an overall negative experience for me? even though he intentionally avoided my lane and intentionally made my experience a bad one (even if he decided the best course was to get other lanes fed (SEE: WHAT THE SUPPORT SINGED IS DOING))

treat the whole support/jungle singed thing as though it already gets punished (which it does). the ranked system will punish it if it doesn't work, and reward it if it does.

TrulyBland1 votes

{quoted}

yes, but it is a strategic reallocation of resources. perhaps one player may get boned and be forced to lane 1v2 (good players can play around this), but another player on the enemy team (the jungler) is going to have a tough time with 2 junglers able to constantly walk into his jungle and shrek his face in.

what if the support player feels going elsewhere is the key to victory? you don't always have to go botlane as a support. support is meant to support the team, not support a player who feels entitled to having some dude wipe their ass for them

if I'm playing into a difficult lane that I'm 100% going to lose, and get camped, can I report the jungler for not supporting me and making the game an overall negative experience for me? even though he intentionally avoided my lane and intentionally made my experience a bad one (even if he decided the best course was to get other lanes fed (SEE: WHAT THE SUPPORT SINGED IS DOING))

treat the whole support/jungle singed thing as though it already gets punished (which it does). the ranked system will punish it if it doesn't work, and reward it if it does.

That one player doesn't have to be boned however, if you actually inform him of the situation he will find himself in.

You are consistently ignoring this part: That player is not only being forced into that situation, he is also being denied any chance to properly adapt to the situation he is forced into.

An adc is not entitled to some dude wiping their ass for them, but a member of your fucking team is entitled to know what the fuck your plan is before they pick an immobile lategame champion that does in fact require the some help early on... or at the very least not a 1v2 lane.

The problem is not that certain players rely on a support, but that certain champions rely on a support. If you don't want people to feel entitled to being supported, tell them in advance so they can pick a different champion. If you don't want people to rely on your help, the easiest way to do that is to just tell them that they cannot rely on your help. That also goes for a jungler that doesn't gank a lane for whatever reason. Tell them what you are deciding when you are deciding it.

And once again: Winrate and rank have nothing to do with this.

Mortekaiser1 votes

{quoted}

That one player doesn't have to be boned however, if you actually inform him of the situation he will find himself in.

last I recall that dude posted what he did as support singed in his games as a paste players should not and cannot expect 100% communication 100% of the time.

adc players are just used to having a support with them 100%. a meta thing shoved in by the community, players shouldn't expect the support to actually go bot. I know I don't, and neither should they

You are consistently ignoring this part: That player is not only being forced into that situation, he is also being denied any chance to properly adapt to the situation he is forced into.

so? good players stop expecting their team to 100% be there for them. ADCs need to stop expecting a support to be there. riot has endorsed a roaming support playstyle with bard. not an argument.

An adc is not entitled to some dude wiping their ass for them, but a member of your fucking team is entitled to know what the fuck your plan is before they pick an immobile lategame champion that does in fact require the some help early on... or at the very least not a 1v2 lane.

no they aren't. remember, this is solo queue. the team can actually be a nasty force, target banning their own players. there's also things like chat mutes, players who don't speak english, and players who just aren't talkative and don't feel like explaining the minutia of every decision they make "warning people" is not an argument when the standard of soloqueue is "don't expect your team to even speak english".

The problem is not that certain players rely on a support, but that certain champions rely on a support. If you don't want people to feel entitled to being supported, tell them in advance so they can pick a different champion.

or maybe they should pick a different champion, or stop picking those champions under the impression that you expect someone to be there. this is solo-queue, not a 5 man queue. if you pick a team-reliant champion, then the burden to perform well on that champion is on that player, not the team.

If you don't want people to rely on your help, the easiest way to do that is to just tell them that they cannot rely on your help. That also goes for a jungler that doesn't gank a lane for whatever reason. Tell them what you are deciding when you are deciding it.

again, don't expect communication about things like that. communication is usually a thing that good players typically do, but if players don't communicate, then they're just making a poor decision, or are unable to communicate for some reason (chat mute hello!). and if Riot starts punishing based on that, then it sets a VERY bad precedent, and players will start getting banned for having a bad game, or just being bad at the game in general.

And once again: Winrate and rank have nothing to do with this.

yes it fucking does. stop saying this shit.

let me browbeat this over your head until you get it:

THE RANKED SYSTEM PUNISHES PLAYERS FOR BAD GAMEPLAY AND BAD STRATEGIES THE RANKED SYSTEM REWARDS PLAYERS FOR GOOD GAMEPLAY AND GOOD STRATEGIES

the GAME ITSELF already dictates if support singed is good or not through the ranked system. if it wins, good for him, he gains elo! if it loses, he'll lose elo

if you want to punish the support singed for an admittedly strange but can be effective playstyle, then you're going to punish him when he's already been punished by the system. double jeopardy is usually a shitty thing for a player to have to deal with.

TrulyBland1 votes

This will be my last post as I don't see this going anywhere. I disagree with literally at least 90% of what you are saying here. It appears to me that you are playing a single player game where other players just happen to be in. I personally prefer playing an actual multiplayer and more than that, a team game.

But the largest reason for the fact that we disagree like this is that you completely miss the point of the singed situation.

THE RANKED SYSTEM PUNISHES PLAYERS FOR BAD GAMEPLAY AND BAD STRATEGIES THE RANKED SYSTEM REWARDS PLAYERS FOR GOOD GAMEPLAY AND GOOD STRATEGIES

Yes. The ranked system punished bad decisions. It doesn't punish toxic decisions. If this is the leg you stand on in your argument, there is nothing to discuss, because you don't even understand the nature of "fiasco" you are complaining about. All the capslock in the world will not save you from that fact: Riot sees the actions of Singed as toxic, not as ineffective. And toxicity has nothing to do with winrate. You are arguing about an entirely different subject that has nothing to do with Riot's decision.

ReadyxPlayerxOne2 votes

{quoted}

I establish, in the post, why it is bad to ban purely for support singed. banning for other matters, though, is entirely out of the scope of the concern of my post

Yes. You did. It's a false premise that I attempted to counter because you're flat out wrong.

I just pulled off support zed and didn't get banned. They don't ban you for playing off meta or playing "support singed".

They ban for making a consistently negative experience for your team.

Mortekaiser1 votes

{quoted}

Yes. You did. It's a false premise that I attempted to counter because you're flat out wrong.

I just pulled off support zed and didn't get banned. They don't ban you for playing off meta or playing "support singed".

They ban for making a consistently negative experience for your team.

ok great, ban him if he's making the game toxic as far as verbal abuse, AFK, or intentional feeding.

otherwise, no ban is deserved.

Best Ekko NA1 votes

{quoted}

I fail to see your logic.

I don't see how a player who got penalized for consistently negative behavior has anything to do with playing off meta. I've played support singed. You can do it without being negative. It's a little like playing support volibear... you want to throw the guy over your head and make it hell for him to get back to the right position. I've even roamed with him and counter jungled and such.

It's one thing to work hard and help your team win using a champion the way they should be played in a particular role. There's a lot of off meta that can work if played right... such as how Teemo can literally play any position if you build him right (and you have literally never seen satan at worlds). It's an entirely different thing when your actions (regardless of win/loss outcomes) affect your team in a negative manner over the course of thousands of games.

You're defending a player with arguments that literally weren't part of the penalty. His "off meta" or "unique playstyle" didn't excuse him from creating a negative experience for his team. That's what got him penalized.

Honestly, I've seen a lot of people playing off meta lately cause of the new jungle and because of the singed support issue. And I'm sure they don't get penalties because they've been working well with their teams. Things like:

Jungle Leona Support Garen w/ ADC Quinn (it's a long time to be blind and silenced lol) Leblanc / Irelia bot lane Yi Mid Ryze Support Nasus Jungle / Support ALL TOP META! (It's really weird if the enemy can't counter it, I've seen the game won in 16 minutes with it) Rek'sai support Vayne Top Varus top Poppy Sup Jungle Ashe (Needs a double leash, so gotta tell your team if they're ok with it) Jungle Malzahar

And a whole ton of other stuff. You know what these players had in common? None of them forced their team to adapt to THEIR playstyle. They made it work without causing a really negative experience. None of these things are "meta" and none of this gets banned.

None of these things are "off-meta" they are just not fotm selections. Meta has nothing at all to do with champions, it only involves where and how you play, not what champion you play.

Non-Meta: Two Melee Champions Bot Lane vs Ranged AD Carry & Support enemy.

Meta: Soraka ADC with Support vs Ranged AD Carry & Support enemy.

In the previous mention, Soraka is still playing the role of the Ranged AD Carry. Is it the best choice? Probably not. The fact that it isn't a great choice however does not stop it from still following the "Most effective tactic available (Meta)". Soraka is still ranged, she's still building damage for taking towers / DPS.

ReadyxPlayerxOne1 votes

{quoted}

None of these things are "off-meta" they are just not fotm selections. Meta has nothing at all to do with champions, it only involves where and how you play, not what champion you play.

Non-Meta: Two Melee Champions Bot Lane vs Ranged AD Carry & Support enemy.

Meta: Soraka ADC with Support vs Ranged AD Carry & Support enemy.

In the previous mention, Soraka is still playing the role of the Ranged AD Carry. Is it the best choice? Probably not. The fact that it isn't a great choice however does not stop it from still following the "Most effective tactic available (Meta)". Soraka is still ranged, she's still building damage for taking towers / DPS.

You quite literally contradict yourself. Not a single one of those things would I consider "meta". And I fail to see where "all top", Irelia/Leblanc bot, Jungle leona are somehow "meta"... Now if you want to go into playstyle...

FINE. Although... pretty sure 5 top counts... but...

I've never been banned for playing a malphite support with smite, hitting 6 and blowing up every lane on the map and taking enemy jungle farm. I've seen it done, I've done it. No one has an issue with it.

Same for Sion support who does almost the same thing.

Same for soraka mid who spends most of the game running up to top or bot to heal and make ganks 3-4 vs 1-2. And that includes healing the jungler when they're nearby.

Same for Zed Support... whom is actually quite decent at countering Blitz...

Same for duo top...

Same for duo mid...

Same for Ivern support with jungler that's seriously invade happy... WHEN we're a duo that can pull this off AND our team isn't begging us to stop....

Same for thousands of other ways to play completely "off-meta".

It's fine if you're able to handle yourself. It's fine if you're still helping your teammates. Play ANY way you choose as long as it's not negatively affecting the people around you...

How the fuck is this so hard to understand?

Best Ekko NA1 votes

{quoted}

You quite literally contradict yourself. Not a single one of those things would I consider "meta". And I fail to see where "all top", Irelia/Leblanc bot, Jungle leona are somehow "meta"... Now if you want to go into playstyle...

FINE. Although... pretty sure 5 top counts... but...

I've never been banned for playing a malphite support with smite, hitting 6 and blowing up every lane on the map and taking enemy jungle farm. I've seen it done, I've done it. No one has an issue with it.

Same for Sion support who does almost the same thing.

Same for soraka mid who spends most of the game running up to top or bot to heal and make ganks 3-4 vs 1-2. And that includes healing the jungler when they're nearby.

Same for Zed Support... whom is actually quite decent at countering Blitz...

Same for duo top...

Same for duo mid...

Same for Ivern support with jungler that's seriously invade happy... WHEN we're a duo that can pull this off AND our team isn't begging us to stop....

Same for thousands of other ways to play completely "off-meta".

It's fine if you're able to handle yourself. It's fine if you're still helping your teammates. Play ANY way you choose as long as it's not negatively affecting the people around you...

How the fuck is this so hard to understand?

The meta has nothing to do with champions themselves. That's a fact. It only involves the tactics used in game (example, where you use what style of champion). Duo Top = OFF META SELECTION. DUO MID = OFF META SELECTION. Support Sion = NOT OFF META SELECTION (because you are still playing Support, which IS META). I didn't contradict myself at all.

Meta = Solo Top Laner, Mid Laner, Jungler, Ranged Marksman Bottom, Support Player Bottom.

It doesn't matter what champion you are using to accomplish this, if you are following this pattern you are playing according to the meta.

Not sure why you would insult me with the inference that I do not understand you, I understand you 100%. All I did was give you the literal definitions of what defines the meta game.

Can you pick two Junglers in Riot's system? Nope. How about two Mid laners? Nope. Two Top laners? Nope. Riot system clearly shows you what the meta is because it's implemented (due to it having been highly requested in the past two seasons). Doing anything that goes against that pattern is "off meta".

ReadyxPlayerxOne1 votes

{quoted}

The meta has nothing to do with champions themselves. That's a fact. It only involves the tactics used in game (example, where you use what style of champion). Duo Top = OFF META SELECTION. DUO MID = OFF META SELECTION. Support Sion = NOT OFF META SELECTION (because you are still playing Support, which IS META). I didn't contradict myself at all.

Meta = Solo Top Laner, Mid Laner, Jungler, Ranged Marksman Bottom, Support Player Bottom.

It doesn't matter what champion you are using to accomplish this, if you are following this pattern you are playing according to the meta.

Not sure why you would insult me with the inference that I do not understand you, I understand you 100%. All I did was give you the literal definitions of what defines the meta game.

Can you pick two Junglers in Riot's system? Nope. How about two Mid laners? Nope. Two Top laners? Nope. Riot system clearly shows you what the meta is because it's implemented (due to it having been highly requested in the past two seasons). Doing anything that goes against that pattern is "off meta".

I just gave you a number of things that ARE off meta by your own fucking definition.

Can you queue under it? NO. It's meant to be that way because of how it works in champion select. It's there to aid you in champ select not to force meta on you but to quickly understand who is playing a role and let you figure out more important things like team strategy, bans and counters to the enemy team. Your ability to play HOWEVER YOU WANT WHEN YOU QUEUE AS A 5 MAN though is almost completely unlimited with very, very few limitations.

But claiming you should be able to solo queue as a DUO JUNGLER? no that's not ok... that's trolling.

TrulyBland1 votes

Actually, meta can easily refer to both. "Most effective/excellent/efficient tactic available" is a backronym that actually is not a very accurate description. Meta simply refers to metagaming, which essentially includes any decision that is made outside of the actual gameplay. In LoL that usually is considered everything that happens in champion select (and earlier) and depending on who you ask, also team strategizing during the game.

The meta refers to the standard metagame decisions that are made. Effectivity has actually nothing to do with it, otherwise different servers could not have different metas, which they do fairly frequently.

Soraka ADC as a whole is not a typical decision to be made, and thus can definitely be considered off-meta.

azrolator2 votes

I like how you keep referring to it as "support" singed. He wasn't playing support. He didn't pick an off-meta champ. He picked an off meta role. I have seen duo junglers. But I have never had a game where they just say "I'm queued up for support but I'm going to leave you bot solo adc so I can go steal the jungler's camps and starve him out and then just do it and screw everyone else and then it just be accepted. It isn't. ADC is a crappy role and I can't see how getting some troll sup doesn't suck and wouldn't be reportable. How much fun did those adc's have solo vs a duo bot lane? I don't have a problem with someone queuing up like this and asking if the adc minds. But he just forced it on them. Not cool.

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