Riot's just as responsible for its community's toxicity as we are

EmollientNut0·Mar 13, 2016·11 votes·1,372 views

How many players do you think have been MADE toxic from feeders not being punished, and 4v5's not capable of ending/leaving early without being put in video game prison?

45 Comments

AraMoOseMar 13, 201610 votes

I'd say precisely 0.

How many people use this as an excuse to justify treating people like garbage? Now that's a different story

Your argument amounts to "The reason we piss in the pool is because there is piss in the pool already"

I'd like a pool without piss in it. That's why I don't piss in the pool.

EmollientNut0Mar 13, 20163 votes

Never once did I say harrassing people is ok. I'm saying their lack of oversight for their own video game causes a flare in emotions.

AraMoOseMar 14, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Never once did I say harrassing people is ok. I'm saying their lack of oversight for their own video game causes a flare in emotions.

No, what you said is that these people are MADE toxic by feeders. I am telling you if they choose to contribute to the problem, they can hardly complain about the problem. Stop pissing in the pool, it's still disgusting even if you THINK you're the only one getting punished for it.

EmollientNut0Mar 14, 20162 votes

Oh great, my favorite combination of flavors! Apples and oranges.

So you think people saying messed up things in the chat equates to someone intentionally feeding and wasting half an hour of 9 people's times?

Damn, where's that button in the tab menu that makes people stop intentionally feeding? I can't seem to find it.

AraMoOseMar 14, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Ah great, my favorite combination of flavors! Apples and oranges.

So you think people saying messed up things in the chat equates to someone intentionally feeding and wasting half an hour of 9 people's times?

Damn, where's that button in the tab menu that makes people stop intentionally feeding? I can't seem to find it.

Do you think robbery and murder are equivalent?

Should they both be punished?

EmollientNut0Mar 14, 20162 votes

Of course they should both be punishable.

However going along with your unconventional metaphor, the police slowly stopped arresting people for pissing in the pool (that's the metaphor for intentional feeding) in our once lawful community and now it's common knowledge you can get away with it.

Why should "pissing in the pool" not be punished to begin with?

LauchmelderMar 14, 20162 votes

What does hurt you more? Someone "pissing in the pool" or someone brutally murdering you?

EmollientNut0Mar 14, 20162 votes

Do you think pissing in the pool and murder are equivalent?

Should they both be punished?

LauchmelderMar 14, 20162 votes

Yes they should both be punished.

No they are not the same. This question is bad in itself. You try to justify one crime with another (more extreme) one.

EmollientNut0Mar 14, 20163 votes

Where are you pulling this from? I literally not once in this entire post condoned harassment, and I never once said someone was justified with theirs.

You're twisting a very basic thought and fabricating my thought process behind it to make me look like I'm bringing this from a more sinister place than I am.

I'm saying that people's reactions to feeders and DC's is agression, and they probably react that way because they feel completely helpless to fix it and make this community better. Especially since it's so infrequent that punishment gets dealt for these crimes.

PS: My post before this was literally me copying and pasting one of your responses. You just called your own question bad. [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

Koonta KintaeMar 13, 201610 votes

I agree with OP.

Being stuck 20 minutes in 4v5 is toxic design. Being held hostage past that by teammates after 20 minutes is even moar toxic design. Being expected to ignore the deluge of verbal abuse that permeates easily over half of matches without saying a word to defend oneself or being reported and potentially banned for it is also toxic design. Having a report system where everyone is encouraged to report other players for any possible disagreement, with no repercussions for false reporting, is also very toxic design.

A lot of the problems with players behavior stem from design flaws built into the game.

Welcome to League of Legends, where negative attitude and bad behavior is the norm, not the rare exception they'd have you believe it is. All you can do is outplay the system by basically clamming up, and reporting anyone who says or does anything you find even slightly offensive or disagree with.

EmollientNut0Mar 14, 20165 votes

You basically just learn to understand that your reports are basically worthless. In my 4 years of playing this game, no more than 7 of the people I've reported have been punished. Like, fucking really? 7? You see on average 3 harassing toxic players in one match alone, a DC every 4 matches and an intentional feeder every 7. And I've seen 7 FUCKING PEOPLE REPORTED? There's no question to me why the community is so toxic and pissed off, they feel helpless.

EmollientNut0Mar 14, 20165 votes

And a factor that sucks about the boards is usually once your post goes negative, people will just downvote it more without giving any real thought to the ideas in it.

KaitriMar 14, 20165 votes

someone says the truth and doesnt get downvotet? wtf is going on did i swap in a different universum?

EmollientNut0Mar 14, 20163 votes

Unfortunately I said the truth and DID get down voted hahaha.

Nik NikersonMar 14, 20164 votes

"It's not my fault I'm a jerk, the game MADE me be a jerk."

Ah, there's that wonderful complete lack of personal responsibility I've grown to love and expect.

If you aren't having a good time playing the game, don't play it. Nobody makes you act any sort of way. You choose to act like a jerk or not. If you can't control yourself, don't put yourself in a position where you're going to interact with people.

EmollientNut0Mar 14, 20163 votes

Ah, there's that total arrogance I've grown to expect from someone starting a sentence with "Ah."

Ah, I don't act toxic and have never been punished for any form of toxic activity, ahhhhhhh.

Ah, even if I did punishments are so ludicrously rare for all forms of bad behavior that odds are severely in my favor that it wouldn't matter.

A lot of people have fun from ruining people's matches, and being toxic. Should they be allowed to have their fun playing the game?

Nik NikersonMar 14, 20163 votes

No they shouldn't. But nobody is saying they should. What I am saying is that saying someone else has made you act a certain way is a complete lie. Nobody can make you act any sort of way you don't want to act. Again, if you can't control YOUR behavior, it's YOUR issue. Take some responsibility for how you act, instead of blaming trolls, or Riot, or God, or whoever else you want you want to shift the blame onto.

It's perfectly fine to say that Riot should improve their system, and its fine to be critical of them. But they don't make people act in any sort of way, positive or negative. Riot is not the root cause of people being jerks over the internet. Riot doesn't make trolls; Trolls are trolls all by themselves. And if you can't control yourself enough to keep from spouting off when someone annoys you, that isn't Riot's doing, it's yours, and you are more than likely going to do it regardless of whatever system Riot implements.

EmollientNut0Mar 14, 20162 votes

I'm sorry, but you're essentially using the "sticks and stones" argument and it doesn't and wouldn't hold up for any community this large. If it did than we wouldn't have/need the system that reports players for harrassment/death threats to begin with. Riot choosing not to stop the trolls from their behavior is their own perpetuation of the problem.

When the system fails to protect its citizens, it is the enforcement that is to blame.

Nik NikersonMar 14, 20163 votes

The concept of taking responsibility for yourself and your actions can't be applied to a large community? At what point does a community become so large that you aren't responsible for your choices? Because I'm pretty sure that's the standard we generally hold people to in society as a whole, which is a LOT larger than the league community.

And yes, we would need the system to report those people. As I said, if you're the sort of person that's going to harass/threaten someone because you're irritated, you're going to end up doing it. If you're a rager, you'll still find some reason to rage, no matter what Riot does, until you address your own problems.

EmollientNut0Mar 15, 20161 votes

Gonna just report what the player Dehitay just said, because it's really all I have left to say to you.

"People consistently ruining your game doesn't make you toxic; you're just that way? Please, what kind of naive world are you people coming from? I could find one of the most violent people in the nation, treat him with respect, and probly walk away without a confrontation. Likewise, I could probly find a huge pacifist, slap his face, push him over, piss on him, and probly push enough to where he would strike back. How people treat you DOES affect the way you act. To claim otherwise is utterly ridiculous.

And do you really think Riot can't do anything about this? Gameplay trolls are easily found by recording video of the game. This isn't that difficult. Of matter of fact, third party sites and programs already do it for free. Riot has a lot more resources than a third party site, yet they just straight up haven't implemented it after 5 years of it being a problem. Other moba games already have similar systems in place, so we know it's a possibility. Riot just won't cough up the cash to punish people who truly deserve it."

Nik NikersonMar 15, 20162 votes

That's right, you could likely avoid a confrontation with a violent person by not doing something that provokes them. Violent people aren't violent all the time. But a violent person doesn't need much provocation to become violent. And if you did something to upset a violent person and they become violent with you, are they not responsible for their actions? Or do we just go "Well he was provoked, he had no control over his actions."?

And I'm not saying people don't affect how you feel. Clearly they do. But what you do with your emotions is completely on you. Not anyone else. Men that beat women always have reasons for doing it. They almost always feel provoked by something the other person did. That doesn't excuse their behavior, because they are the ones that chose to act that way.

You really think I've never gotten mad over a game of league? Of course I have. I hate losing as much as the next guy. But I CHOOSE not to become toxic in response. I yell, and swear to myself. I vent to my friends in private messages or on skype. I let it out in a way that isn't going to contribute to the problem, or at the very least, not get me punished. That's how I choose to handle my frustration. The same way other people choose, all on their own, to become toxic in return. No one is making them respond that way. They are making that choice all on their own.

Again, no one thinks trolls shouldn't be punished. And I agree, Riot should be doing more. But your original statement wasn't "Riot could do more to eliminate trolls", it was "People are being made toxic by the system". They aren't. They are CHOOSING to be toxic in response to something they don't like. No one is forcing them into a corner, and giving them no other option. They are lashing out because they are frustrated, and there are plenty of other ways to deal with being frustrated. Yes, Riot should improve their system, but that doesn't mean that until they do it's okay to be toxic.

DehitayMar 15, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nik Nikerson,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=ErO4nrLE,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-15T06:07:25.638+0000)

But your original statement wasn't "Riot could do more to eliminate trolls", it was "People are being made toxic by the system".

The most giant letter in this post clearly read "Riot's just as responsible for its community's toxicity as we are". It's a safe bet to assume the title is the point being made.

TrylobyteMar 14, 20164 votes

Nobody 'makes' you toxic. They can do provocative things, but that doesn't mean you need to respond to them. That guy taunting you in the bar didn't make you punch him. The waitress in the short skirt didn't make you grab her ass. The driver who cut you off in traffic didn't make you curse him out at the stoplight. You did those things. Take some responsibility for your actions.

See, here's the thing about trolls that I never understand. People say they get toxic because of trolls. This is exactly what trolls want! They thrive in salt and tears and rage. It's the whole reason they do what they do. Being a troll myself when I was still in high school I can tell you, watching people fly off the handle at some completely trivial thing is honestly pretty entertaining. Just last night my friends and I got a laugh after I beat someone in a kart game and they responded by telling me to kill myself, and I wasn't even trying to harass them!

Therein lies the key to defeating the troll. If you don't give them attention, if you don't give them the power to dictate what you do, if you don't let them 'make you' react the way they want you to react, then they become the ones not having any fun. And you have a lot fewer of them as a result. The players could easily police this issue themselves without any assistance from Riot by simply agreeing to be decent people. But we don't, so here we are.

Riot could be doing more, surely, but that doesn't mean the players can't do anything either. The power to stop this rests mostly in the hands of the players, in fact, because as long as people keep giving trolls the reactions and attention they want they're going to keep right on doing it.

EmollientNut0Mar 15, 20161 votes

Again I'll repost what the player Dehitay said since it's so on point.

Nik NikersonMar 15, 20163 votes

People can clearly affect your emotions. The can very easily make you angry. What you choose to do with that anger is on you.

I'm not naive. I believe Riot should be working harder to get rid of trolls. But Riot doesn't force you to be toxic anymore than trolls do. Thinking that someone, a stranger on the internet no less, has some magical ability to make you do anything against your will is naive. No one is threatening you. No one is backing you into a corner. You have a choice in how you choose to react to people making you angry.

No flash no lifeMar 13, 20163 votes

I won't say riot is responsible, but it is true that there are things they could do to reduce a lot of suffering, which results in potential toxic behaviors. Time and time again I keep repeating myself that riot is too lenient with the punishments; giving trolls chances to prove their improved behavior simply provides them more chances to troll 4 other players each game, and by the time they're finally banned a significant deal of irreversible damage has already been done. I understand that riot's taking a lot of perspectives into consideration, but as things stand we need some sort of method to identify most trolls asap with no tolerance shown.

EmollientNut0Mar 13, 20162 votes

I've literally never seen someone get punished for feeding. Not once. Not even the people who buy 6 boots and constantly walk down the mid lane in ranked matches.

BettnachlegerMar 14, 20161 votes

Just check out this forum. There are some people who complain about a ban for intentionally feeding.

EmollientNut0Mar 14, 20162 votes

I just scrolled through about 5 pages of 2 different lists and I couldn't find one. I saw a lot about people saying they didn't deserve their ban for being toxic but that was all I could find.

We have to also consider the fact that out of the intentional feeders out there that actually get punished (so probably 12 people in a season cycle), this is probably the first place they'll go after getting banned. :P

ThaPizzaManMar 14, 20163 votes

I was hoping for 4 bans this season that's what makes me rage.

EmollientNut0Mar 14, 20162 votes

I'm more upset about the green wards I think, even moreso than my favorite champ being reworked. But it would be nice having that extra ban to reserve for Amumu haha.

Palmeiras SerieBMar 14, 20163 votes

Valve deal with the problems, Riot does not give a fuck as long they make fucking lots of money.

Thanks Tencent

EmollientNut0Mar 14, 20162 votes

I'm almost positive Tencent is more at fault than Riot since they're the money interest that needs appeasing, good point friend. :P

DehitayMar 15, 20163 votes

Wow, I didn't realize Riot had the same type of white knights that female streamers showing off their cleavage do. A surprising amount of people are so quick to dismiss the point that I'm a bit disappointed

People consistently ruining your game doesn't make you toxic; you're just that way? Please, what kind of naive world are you people coming from? I could find one of the most violent people in the nation, treat him with respect, and probly walk away without a confrontation. Likewise, I could probly find a huge pacifist, slap his face, push him over, piss on him, and probly push enough to where he would strike back. How people treat you DOES affect the way you act. To claim otherwise is utterly ridiculous.

EmollientNut0Mar 15, 20161 votes

Honestly, thank you. This hits the head of the nail so hard on the point that I was making. It's getting a repost all over this thread and I'll buy you a damn beer.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

WeatheredMar 14, 20162 votes

Disagree. I've played multiple 4v5 games recently where I had tons of fun. One of them I actually got a pentakill. I could care less if I win, especially in norms, cause I usually do fine myself regardless. If I do well and play in a way thats fun, who cares.

PhenyxsMar 14, 20162 votes

Down vote. Reason why is riot can't control another player actions. I read the other day posted on here the great deal it takes to report someone before action is taken. This giving if you get banned then you sure deserve it. But I still report people for toxic behavior and I am talking about swearing, name calling, harassment, ,a lot of racism going on as if late. Anyway, I have gotten feedback saying the reports go through. A lot if the time I don't and it makes you wonder. But I do think something could be put in place to help with the afk and stuff. I have won games 4 vs 5 and lost them. I think if a toxic person is in your group or feeding on purpose then a in game kick out should be allowed which leaves u back to uneven team but the focus might be better. This also would trigger with riot as a toxic player that was team voted out. But flip side is a land in a group match and your solo. They could troll that all night or day and you did nothing wrong.. overall I do think riot needs to step in really fast before this gets worse. This season is the worst ever. I dint play rank anymore and less games per day due to the feeding and toxicity. The feeding I don't understand, in my lane I notice th here out for blood vs playing and throwing shots back and forth until ok let's go all in see who wins. Now when you get to lane they turret dive you, before minions show. So to truly blame riot you have to have the facts first from them and nit there 4 word bull shit line. There good at ignoring you or blowing you off.

EmollientNut0Mar 15, 20161 votes

I think Riot does have quite a bit of control over player's actions. A good example is the leaver buster system, no one wants to lave the 4v5 holding them hostage because they're terrified of getting punished themselves. I have noticed the increase in racism and homophobic remarks, and I'm really not a fan. But I agree for sure that they need to step up and do more!

When the system fails to protect its citizens, it is the enforcement that is to blame.

This is a post I saw from a second year law student posting on a similar topic.

DeloricVIMar 14, 20161 votes

There are some good points and crap points here.

The 4v5 is hard to win; it's possible to win, but the chance is smaller the further up in ranks you get, and the longer the game is. I totally get people being frustrated over AFK's, and even worse, trolls.

However, just plain bad players will come out in the wash. If you are doing your job properly. Assuming that you are good at league of legends, you also have a higher statistical chance of winning. Consider the following:

There are 9 other players in the queue. If any number of them are very bad at this game, you have a statistical advantage (again, assuming that you are a good player) in that your team will have only 4 slots where a bad player can go instead of 5. Now, I don't mean to imply that you are bad, but this is the reason that Riot can't really do anything about players who are just bad at the game. Mainly, because they are, but also because being bad at the game shouldn't be punishable.

Now, where you are right is that Riot can do something about this, by finding a way to teach people the game properly instead of just letting you do your own thing and being all like, "We want you to play the game your way, because you're special snowflake of creativity that can't be wrong." I'll quote Sky Williams on this one, "Before you start thinking outside the box, you better make sure the box is filled in to begin with." [paraphrased] Pros go goofy champs and do crazy builds because they know what they're doing, and you shouldn't try it in soloqueue.

A lot of these feeders don't know or have any way to learn why they're being punished, because they don't realize that they're making mistakes.

EmollientNut0Mar 14, 20162 votes

A bit more proper of a tutorial than Ashe buying a thornmail would probably help the learning process would probably help haha. However I don't think anything should be done about the bad players, other than a bit more baseline training inside the game itself as you mentioned. A little surprised there isn't some kind of kiting minigame to teach people how to play ADC properly.

All that being said, it's the Teemo with 6 pairs of boots that needs to be kicked out of this community. It's not fun for either side knowing you can't play an actual match because their top laner is 0/28/0.

DeloricVIMar 14, 20163 votes

I personally think that Riot needs some training modes for skill shot dodging, cs'ing, and warding. At the very least, this would help so many people improve, especially if they actually try to mention how important cs is. That's what a lot of this community's problem is. When I win in the mid lane, it's typically for a variety of reasons, but the chief reason is because I cs most people of my elo under the table and smack them over the head with a bag of gold, or in the case of Veigar, them sweet AP stax.

Also, I would want to suggest that some people stop playing certain champions in ranked; you'd be surprise how much these players can learn from swallowing their pride, and playing Annie. They play mechanically complex champions, which means that they get distracted from the basics of the games, so they don't learn how to play the base game because they're too busy learning how to play Yasuo or Syndra or Ekko. It's why I made a thread as a PSA to bronze players to stop playing these champions. I'm tired of them ruining my games.

But what do I know? The thread got downvoted into The depths of the forums... apparently, people don't like to be told which champion to play, even though I'm trying to give actual serious advice here.

japan hate accMar 15, 20161 votes

Yes, but having feeders DOES NOT, in any way, shape, or form, excuse toxic behavior.

Not to mention that there are multiple forms of feeding: -Just having a bad game -Having to do something else while you're playing, like watch a child -Bad internet connection, which results in the game freezing, which results in you standing around while you get killed -And finally, the only real punishable one, the "let me go <insert role here> or else I'll feed"

The first three are different. Those aren't intentional, nor should they be punished. The last one, however, is immature and inexcusable. It is stupid and pathetic, and ruins the entire game. However, even this isn't good cause to be toxic. Nothing is.

People feeding is NO EXCUSE for being toxic. That's what it really boils down to.

EmollientNut0Mar 15, 20161 votes

Not sure why everyone's assuming what I'm doing is condoning toxic behavior. Never once have I been reported for toxic behavior, and I don't plan to be.

What I'm saying is while I don't agree with it, I understand the biproduct of (very literally unpunished) intentional feeders and DC's to be agression and toxic behavior.

When the system fails to protect its citizens, it is the enforcement that is to blame.