The defeatism culture is getting out of control in this game.

Lost R·May 22, 2018·62 votes·14,087 views

It doesn't matter what happens in the game, or if the game even has a chance to begin, the entire team is now more than eager, even outright SALIVATING over the chance to surrender, to feel the humiliation and despair of defeat.

It is a fucking plague. Someone misses a minion? Autosurrender. Someone has the wrong runes? Autosurrender. The support got an assist? Autosurrender. Someone missed a skillshot? Autosurrender.

Defeatism needs to be harshly, HARSHLY, HARSHLY, HARSHLY, H̨̡͔͎̙͎̟̲ͤͥ̏̾Ą̷̼͓̘̼͓͇̥̞̮͆͐̈ͭ͂͠R͎͕͚̯̫̱ͤ̒Ŝ͍̦̉̆̏̋̓ͫ̅͝H̵̥͎̥̜̱̮̞͔̏̎̾̈ͭ͌ͤḺ̹̗̫̥ͤ́͛͑͡͞ͅY̗̦͉̏̈͒̐̿͌̋ punished, because people aren't even playing the game anymore. They just meander about looking for any reason to force a surrender, and that is what will kill not just this game or every future game that may succeed it, but the entirety of this species.

93 Comments

KarunamonMay 22, 201826 votes

Part of this comes down to game design, specifically mechanics that promote snowballing. This is the game in which one or two base AD gets multiplied and multiplied and multiplied some more, to where a measly 5 damage can turn into a hundreds of damage avalanche after it gets done being multiplied.

This is a game in which missing a minion means that the other guy gets to buy his items just a bit sooner, and the boost that provides is enough to absolutely stomp your face in.

This is a game in which the team that takes the first tower wins 70% of the time. After that tower goes, you now have a statistically 1 in 3 chance of winning the game.

This is a game of power spikes, rather than consistent play.

Most people are not Lux IRL, and I don't think there's much value in pretending otherwise. It's just not human nature. There's no amount of carrots and sticks that can be dangled to change this.

IcyPepperMay 23, 20184 votes

This is a game in which the team that takes the first tower wins 70% of the time. After that tower goes, you now have a statistically 1 in 3 chance of winning the game.

What should that percentage be then?

60%? 55%? 53%? What would be ideal?

KarunamonMay 23, 201810 votes

Ideally? I'm not a game designer, but a single objective, usually the first one taken, being worth a whopping 20%WR just screams bogosity to me.

The team gold changes coming up will mitigate that somewhat (bounties now go to the killer rather than the killer's team)

Sir PrepuziusMay 23, 20182 votes

{quoted}

(bounties now go to the killer rather than the killer's team)

Really? i can already see the KS REPORT kids screaming..

The Space CowboyMay 23, 201810 votes

FF has a 100% chance of losing. I’ll play the numbers to get my 1/3 win chance.

NvestmentPlankerMay 23, 201812 votes

I hope I never get your dumbass mentality on my team to waste my time with unwinnable games.

TheCodeisCupCakeMay 23, 20183 votes

Your name is ironic af

The Space CowboyMay 23, 20185 votes

Have fun replaying the first 15 minutes of the game. You’re weak willed and immature.

9R54dfWJwJMay 24, 20181 votes

im sure he will, either hell own or he wont and move onto the next game sooner for more chances to own. everyone likes owning

The Space CowboyMay 24, 20181 votes

The problem is that if he owns then the other team will ff. If this idea spreads no game will pass 20 minutes, no nexus will ever die, and nobody will get to own.

9R54dfWJwJMay 25, 20181 votes

then its league problem to fix the design

IcyPepperMay 25, 20181 votes

Wait, how is taking a 1/3 chance to win over a 100% failure rate by surrendering "dumbass mentality?"

[sg-lux-2]

If you still have a chance to win, you play the game. Are you seriously suggesting that it's worth surrendering when the first tower goes down, because that's the context of the conversation.

LordGeovanniMay 23, 20182 votes

Obviously if you forfeit your advantages and play worse you have less of a chance of winning. But that does not mean that you dont try for the chance that you do have at winning.

Lost RMay 23, 20188 votes

You may not realize it, but you've proven exactly my point.

This isn't about cloy optimism, but steeled determination and adaptation. It's distressing that people are absolutely incapable of telling the difference between the two.

People are so eager to base their entire lives on arbitrary statistics that they barely even understand, that they no longer count as sentient lifeforms. They misread "50% win rate" as 1000%, and then assume that that statistic applies to them. They play champions without understanding why they they are strong, why they work in certain situations and, more importantly, why they don't in others. The instant something doesn't go EXACTLY as they expect it to go down to the subatomic level, they are instantly, immediately routed, demoralized, and are eager to just give up everything unconditionally.

They've become obsessed with the meta. Anything that doesn't play exactly to what the meta is or what they think it is, they give up. There's no such thing as adapting to some unknown element or trying something new. Hell, they're ready to throw a cosmic shit fit if someone else does something that they don't understand.

The logical conclusion of this was last year. I started playing Cho'gath to learn his style and build up his Mastery. I started experimenting with the Titanic Hydra, since it had roughly the same AOE as his spikes, and found it worked really well. People threw a massive tantrum over it, though, even to the point of sabotaging dozens of games and calling it a troll build. Less than two patches later, he got a change that, among other things, added Titanic Hydra to his recommended build list.

KarunamonMay 23, 201816 votes

This isn't about cloy optimism, but steeled determination and adaptation. It's distressing that people are absolutely incapable of telling the difference between the two.

Because in most cases there is truly no difference. There's a saying about discretion being the better part of valor, and there's also the fact that at the end of the day, we are talking about a video game. Playing out a 2v5 or a 15-40 not only is rubbish from the standpoint of gaining actionable experience, it completely robs the game of the fun and enjoyment it's supposed to provide. Your time would be better spent abandoning the doomed game and queuing up again for another try.

And before the hasty generalization comes in, yes, there is value in learning how to play when behind.. but there is a reason I said "doomed", not "behind". This is part of the distinction between determination and optimism you mentioned. Determination is "I'm going to play this out and do my best anyways", cloy optimism is "WE CAN STILL WIN EVEN THOUGH WE'RE DOWN NINE TOWERS, TWO DRAGONS, AND 20 KILLS! NEVAR SURRENDER!". No points for guessing which one causes more tilt.

woodvsmurphMay 23, 20187 votes

Because people don't listen to their teammate(s). Because they don't adjust their strategies to stop doing a losing one and try a different one and see if it improves their chances of success.

I had a game last year where we were down over 20k. I was strong, but my teammates were all about 2+ levels and a full item or more behind. My adc was about half the strength of the enemy team's adc. Mid and bot duo were flaming each other rather than playing the game. I could have just sat top slowly bleeding out as I got 2v1'd and my team lost the entire map, but I threw away my advantage in lane and encouraged my team to play FOR THE TEAM. We spent the next 10+ min beating the living daylights out of their team off the back of first my sacrificial suicidal engages (that let my team get aces at the cost of my life and maybe 1 or 2 others) and then my teammates too. They went from doing stupid (even for bronze 5; and this was silver) plays over and over and being ready to rip each others' throats out to copying me and ENCOURAGING each other and making smart (even for low gold; and this was silver) plays. We made 4 snowballed enemies and one slightly behind player look like buffoons after they'd been goomba stomping for the past 20+ min (all game).

And the same can be done this season. The thing is... people just don't want to LISTEN to anyone except their own ideas. They don't want to WIN unless THEY are the ones who carry. So if they aren't in position to carry, they just do stupid shit that puts them more behind and screws over their teammates' leads because their teammates are left dealing with the mess they made - trying to minimize losses instead of being able to capitalize on advantages. They don't want to die... even if that death would clearly spell victory for their team. They don't want to group... cuz then they aren't solo carrying the game. They don't want to let someone else split and carry... because then it's not THEM carrying their team. Utter selfish stupidity is only increasing in frequency and magnitude, but there IS a cure for it. People CAN CHOOSE to do the right thing. And because of that, gold item or level disadvantages CAN be overcome. Through teamwork, cooperation, coordination, and CORRECT tactics. But you have to ADJUST your bad tactics and be willing to let your team help - and help them in turn. You can't just make everything about you and leave your team to rot.

The splitpusher splitpushes not to make themselves the star or purely for their advantage... they do it so their team gets a 4v3 elsewhere and to let their teammates catch up when they're behind. The teammates likewise group and stall at tower with their waveclear if they're too behind to enable their splitpusher to do work while they stall out 4 or 5 enemies and catch up. Or if given a 4v3, the push objectives (tower, dragon, baron) as a 4 man unit as best they safely can. And maybe later it becomes all about the 5v5 when they are strong enough or maybe they keep splitting. And the same type of logic applies to teamfighting and the rest of the stuff in league too.

Teams with leads SHOULD have advantages... but there's often a counter to strategies even when you are behind. You're going for dragon in 20 sec and we have no vision in the area? We're also too behind to facecheck? Push mid and/or top tower during that time. Or burn down baron and trade objectives. You just have to learn the macro intelligence to see disadvantages as advantages elsewhere.

KZ EngelMay 22, 201817 votes

i'm pretty sure the only ones salivating are the ones who refuse to surrender games where the enemies have 10-20x their kills and 5+ more turrets

KazaJhodoMay 23, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=KZ Engel,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=1lrWx0Td,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-05-22T23:01:05.466+0000)

i'm pretty sure the only ones salivating are the ones who refuse to surrender games where the enemies have 10-20x their kills and 5+ more turrets

Absolutely true.

I've seen a lot of games where its like 5 to 0 and the teams gging. Thats not a gg, 20 to 2 at 18, now THATS a gg. Nope, whole team won't surrender. LOL

BlåbæretMay 23, 201814 votes

Lmao. The OP is actually putting blame on the players for the meta being a snowball fest where games are already decided in champ select. Give me a break, man. The Reason people want to surrender is because 9/10 times they're just wasting time by still playing the same game. Better get out of a sure loss and re-queue.

Downvoted.

9R54dfWJwJMay 24, 20182 votes

pretty much this, its not the community, its how league is designed right now.

Malevolent MetalMay 23, 201813 votes

Defeatism wouldn't be a thing if the matches were fun. It's not fun to only see a variety of the same 15 champs in every single game. That and snowball.

RyouhiMay 23, 201813 votes

I only have so much time i can invest into this game on a daily basis - often only 1 or 2 games.

If by minute 10 the enemy jungler is 5/0/6 while mine is 0/5/1 and the enemy jungler can now easily snowball every lane, i see absolutely no point in even trying to win.

With how snowbally the game has become you can see a lose coming at minute 10 to 15 by how many objectives and kill advantages the enemy team has over yours.

KVbqbFsC8eMay 23, 201812 votes

There is nothing wrong with saving time.

Brain Errör 404May 23, 201811 votes

Defeatism isn't getting out of control. Mass delusion is. If you wanna play a game out to better yourself, sure. But don't delude yourself that you can win a lost game with highly under performing members after the 20minute mark of not making a DENT in the enemy towers. If, by 20minutes, you don't get a single tower and the enemy is at your inhibitor, there's a 99% chance you'll lose that game.

The 1% chance of the enemy throwing the game is simply not worth the time and effort.

BestPudgeNAMay 25, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Brain Errör 404,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=1lrWx0Td,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2018-05-23T06:59:58.268+0000)

Defeatism isn't getting out of control. Mass delusion is. If you wanna play a game out to better yourself, sure. But don't delude yourself that you can win a lost game with highly under performing members after the 20minute mark of not making a DENT in the enemy towers. If, by 20minutes, you don't get a single tower and the enemy is at your inhibitor, there's a 99% chance you'll lose that game.

The 1% chance of the enemy throwing the game is simply not worth the time and effort.

You're vastly overestimating the chances you can win this game. Odds are like -20% because not only are you gonna lose this game 100% of the time sometimes you're also gonna tilt and lose the next because of it.

Trickster JesterMay 23, 201810 votes

Surrendering is the best feature in this game and I think it needs to be moved back to 10 minutes so we can get out sooner when shit goes terrible.

Best Vi EarthMay 23, 20183 votes

this dude for president

ChalzeMay 22, 20188 votes

Defeatism should be a way to moderate your hopes, not a direction to play towards. Defeatism essentially allows me to be rather tiltfree since I don't expect too much from my teammates, but it never gets in the way of me still playing for the win. I guess it's just expectations (or lack of)

YuGiHoMay 23, 20187 votes

Idk about you but the defeat screen arouses me deeply.

AntelathMay 23, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Idk about you but the defeat screen arouses me deeply.

Nothing is more arousing then seeing the enemy 5 Train Wreck you. And then assert their dominance on you....

[sg-jinx]

I HAMPSTERMay 23, 20185 votes

like others have said its the snowball nature of the game. you actually can almost always tell by 15 mins which team is going to win.

I just reviewed your last 20 ranked games. in 17 of them the team that was ahead at 15 minutes won the game. and in the 3 "comeback" wins the lead was less than 2k.

my last 20 games show the exact same thing. 17 times out of 20 the team that has the lead at 15 mins wins.

is it really worth continuing to fight for a 15% chance? and that's in a fairly close game with a lead of less than 2k. obviously when the lead is more than that the odds are much smaller.

its an easy choice for me. ff and try to do better next game.

ThilmerMay 23, 20185 votes

I completely disagree with this comment.

I rarely felt the need to surrend at minute 30 in seasons 3, 4 or 5.

Rigth now I will surrender at minute 5 in many games if it was possible.

I haven't changed at all as a persson or as a player: is the game what has changed, into a snowballing clownfiesta were comebacks are imposible if the enemy team has half a brain, making most games incredibly one-sided and therefore boring, frustating and a waste of my time. I didn't ragequitted a single game during four years; this season I have been in the low priority queue simply because I was ragequitting too often.

It's not me; it's the broken metagame causing 50% of my matches to be boring as hell.

comedybingbongsMay 23, 20185 votes

FFing when a game is lost is smart. It will help you climb faster in the long run

The Space CowboyMay 24, 20181 votes

That makes no sense unless you mean protecting your mentality from tilt. Even a 1% comeback chance would improve your climb. Every L you can make a W helps. Surrendering is 100% loss probability vs comebacks. The chance of coming back is greater than 1% as well. So, if it’s 10% for instance and half your games are losses then you can bump your win rate 5% by not forfeiting. Easy math.

comedybingbongsMay 24, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Space Cowboy,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=1lrWx0Td,comment-id=001c0000,timestamp=2018-05-24T15:57:56.997+0000)

That makes no sense unless you mean protecting your mentality from tilt. Even a 1% comeback chance would improve your climb. Every L you can make a W helps. Surrendering is 100% loss probability vs comebacks. The chance of coming back is greater than 1% as well. So, if it’s 10% for instance and half your games are losses then you can bump your win rate 5% by not forfeiting. Easy math.

If you know that your chances of winning are very low and it will take a large amount of minutes to come back, its most likely best to dodge.

The math you are talking about above assumes you are going to play infinite games or that you have no time constraints. There is a reason that in South Korea, where people play the game much more competitively and in internet cafes with time constraints, opening is very prevalent.

Also, this isn't just my opinion. Its what almost any guide written by a high elo player will say. On the other hand, if you are playing to improve, then yes there are some things you can improve on while grinding out a lost game.

Protecting your mentality from tilt is definetly an underrated strategy for climbing though. Almost as underrated as dodging. I've never seen a high elo player suggest that you dodge less than 1 if not 2 games a day if you are serious about climbing

Best Vi EarthMay 24, 20181 votes

thats not true. your not putting time into your variants.

The Space CowboyMay 25, 20181 votes

Per cent = per 100 it measures probability per incident not minute. So if you can get 4 games into 1 hour you win 2 at 50%. If you only play two you win one at the same rate. So although the amount of wins increases with an ff in that scenario you must take into account my theory of the increase in win rate from not quitting which means occasional 2 win streaks in that hour with two games. To your credit you get more LP from wins than losses so volume matters if the rate is unchanged. Perhaps that should have been the premise of your argument.

Best Vi EarthMay 25, 20181 votes

riddle me this, why is it that the higher the ranks the lower the game time?

SolutateMay 23, 20184 votes

The problem is no one EVER wants top surrender, if most people just came to terms that a game is loss people wouldn't try to ff every single game, know how annoying it is to play a game vs a Jax, Rakan, Xayah, Malphite, Syndra, when your team rtefuses to pick according to there comp, so they just lock in stuff like. Teemo top, katarina mid, udyr jg, sona sup, and ashe adc.. games clearly over with in champ select, but noooo, better play it out til 40 mins cus enemy teams to dumb to end, and NA is too dumb to just ff

NankyokuMay 23, 20184 votes

I almost never surrender. Sure, I've lost a good number of games where I was behind, but what exactly do I get out of surrendering, save for those 10 minutes of extra play I could have avoided? I'm a firm supporter of the opinion that you mostly learn how to play and improve when you're actually behind. If you're snowballing what is there to do?Just keep pushing and killing enemies?

Being behind is frustrating for many people and I understand that some just want to surrender but surrendering simply because you lost 2 towers or the enemies are 10 kills ahead is not reasonable. Especially in solo queue where the greediness of one opponent can cost them the game if it's late game, no matter how far ahead they are.

I've played a huge amount of games over many years and can tell with pretty strong accuracy whether the game is completely unwinnable or not. Then, of course I'll surrender. But surrendering at 15 minutes?No way.

woodvsmurphMay 23, 20183 votes

Well it's more of that so many people in today's society are growing up taking pleasure in causing other people pain, frustration, or outright suffering rather than in trying to accomplish something good or build others up. You can see this both in league and in the real world. In league, people int and/or troll just to get attention or to piss off a teammate. They don't play the game to win or have fun, but merely to light the world on fire and take pleasure in causing their teammates to suffer. I don't understand it, but that's basically what they do. And we see this in real world society too. Makes me sad.

Light BurnerMay 23, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Well it's more of that so many people in today's society are growing up taking pleasure in causing other people pain, frustration, or outright suffering rather than in trying to accomplish something good or build others up. You can see this both in league and in the real world. In league, people int and/or troll just to get attention or to piss off a teammate. They don't play the game to win or have fun, but merely to light the world on fire and take pleasure in causing their teammates to suffer. I don't understand it, but that's basically what they do. And we see this in real world society too. Makes me sad.

this is so false. People that int, int because theyre tilted from the dumb shit thats done to them from 0/8 teammates in prior games OR teammates banning their champs because they dont want that champion on their team.

woodvsmurphMay 23, 20182 votes

There IS that too. But I've seen well more than my fair share of people inting for the sake of taking pleasure in the frustration they cause their team. Like gee... we've just demolished the enemy team in the last 3 teamfights and got baron and an open inhib at the enemy mid... you wanna group 5, win a fight and end or...you wanna split, die 1v1, and throw away a chance to end the game... then repeat that throw 10x in a row? And sure, we could follow you to a side lane so you don't die 1v1, but then you just conveniently base and sit there until we can't push anymore or run to a different lane just to stay away from us and refuse the free win condition we have. This gets repeated until our team is outscaled and has lost every advantage we had and... we lose.

Or...

Someone just runs it down lane and down other people's lanes and steals the jungle's farm because... they're 0/2/0 and a teammate didn't drop everything and suicide to maybe get them a kill or save them. And the whole time they just type insults and hate and/or spam ping people. Key thing being... done repeatedly. Not like a one or two time honest mistake, but an intentional repetition of something bad.

If that's not someone wanting to just burn down the world and revel in causing suffering (as far as league is concerned), then I don't know what is. And you see it with real life too. It's the people that pretend to be sjw not to actually fight for a cause but to try to rip other people apart and tear them down while seeking praise from others for doing so. It's stuff like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzA4dCT4X0I

Where people go too damn far and give others they CLAIM to represent a bad name. Or the government scientist that came to my class to give a speech about how she makes a point of increasing diversity of scientists at high level government jobs. That's awesome - coming from a caucasian male. But then she went on to claim that all white males are handed everything and none of them deserve to be where they are at. Ummm... excuse me? You have no clue how hard I did or didn't work to get where I am. Or what my qualifications are compared to others. The job to the best person - regardless of race/religion/etc. I mean if two people are equal, sure increase diversity and all that good stuff... but don't tell me I got my job purely because I'm a white guy and that I didn't put in any work to get to where I am. Her talking the way she did? That just turns off a ton of people who would otherwise be entirely rallying behind a good cause... because people go too damn far overboard. They just wanna tear people down instead of improve society. Not all, but too many. A few rotten people ruining or defaming otherwise good causes and giving rotten people who oppose the good cause ammo is just sad and too common. And the frequency and depth of these occurrences seems to be increasing. That's all I'm saying.

Light BurnerMay 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

There IS that too. But I've seen well more than my fair share of people inting for the sake of taking pleasure in the frustration they cause their team. Like gee... we've just demolished the enemy team in the last 3 teamfights and got baron and an open inhib at the enemy mid... you wanna group 5, win a fight and end or...you wanna split, die 1v1, and throw away a chance to end the game... then repeat that throw 10x in a row? And sure, we could follow you to a side lane so you don't die 1v1, but then you just conveniently base and sit there until we can't push anymore or run to a different lane just to stay away from us and refuse the free win condition we have. This gets repeated until our team is outscaled and has lost every advantage we had and... we lose.

Or...

Someone just runs it down lane and down other people's lanes and steals the jungle's farm because... they're 0/2/0 and a teammate didn't drop everything and suicide to maybe get them a kill or save them. And the whole time they just type insults and hate and/or spam ping people. Key thing being... done repeatedly. Not like a one or two time honest mistake, but an intentional repetition of something bad.

If that's not someone wanting to just burn down the world and revel in causing suffering (as far as league is concerned), then I don't know what is. And you see it with real life too. It's the people that pretend to be sjw not to actually fight for a cause but to try to rip other people apart and tear them down while seeking praise from others for doing so. It's stuff like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzA4dCT4X0I

Where people go too damn far and give others they CLAIM to represent a bad name. Or the government scientist that came to my class to give a speech about how she makes a point of increasing diversity of scientists at high level government jobs. That's awesome - coming from a caucasian male. But then she went on to claim that all white males are handed everything and none of them deserve to be where they are at. Ummm... excuse me? You have no clue how hard I did or didn't work to get where I am. Or what my qualifications are compared to others. The job to the best person - regardless of race/religion/etc. I mean if two people are equal, sure increase diversity and all that good stuff... but don't tell me I got my job purely because I'm a white guy and that I didn't put in any work to get to where I am. Her talking the way she did? That just turns off a ton of people who would otherwise be entirely rallying behind a good cause... because people go too damn far overboard. They just wanna tear people down instead of improve society. Not all, but too many. A few rotten people ruining or defaming otherwise good causes and giving rotten people who oppose the good cause ammo is just sad and too common. And the frequency and depth of these occurrences seems to be increasing. That's all I'm saying.

So a guy running down your lane intentionally trying to lose is the issue but the top laner that feeds his ass off and continues to buy dmg items and claim and he's trying to win is completely fine? You'd prefer that on your team? The top laner that loses 2 turrets in the span of 14 mins. At least the troll said his intentions were to lose. The real problem comes from the players who act like their intention is to win but play like their intention is to suck dick.

woodvsmurphMay 24, 20181 votes

I am not sure where you are thinking I claim a feeding laner going full damage is ok. I am not okay with something like that either - in MOST cases. That kind of play is exactly what I argue against. It's called intentional feeding because the guy is forcing fights instead of playing safe (intentional) and taking ones he KNOWS he will lose based on all the past times he's lost (feeding+ intentional). This is a problem too and I've argued vehemently that it needs to be properly punished via the report system - because people too often excuse this behavior.

There are a few exceptions to this though. If they aren't forcing the same bad plays but are truly trying to play as safely as they can when behind, it's more excusable. And some champs need to go damage or they are useless. Also a player MIGHT know that once they hit certain items, they can win regardless of being behind. Take an example from my game the other day. I was conqueror renekton vs grasp aatrox. I screwed up once early, got put further behind by my jg's mistake and their jg's repeat ganks onto me. So I was down about 10 cs, 1 lvl and 2 kills. But I hit item spike and level spike and just took a seemingly bad fight. But I knew what I was doing and shut down aatrox. I proceeded to destroy him in lane - despite multiple 2v1 ganks by sej and their mid even roaming top to help him.

Point being that sometimes you... need to build damage in a matchup or game because otherwise you cannot be effective either in splitpushing NOR teamfighting and you can sometimes win even when losing and behind by taking the right fights at the right times with the right items. So not in ALL situations would I argue someone is inting or needs reporting just because they're behind and building damage. You also have to factor in outside circumstances too. Like... were they camped? Did they get any help? Could they ward - or is all their vision constantly denied? Were they actually capable of realistically playing safer/smarter? Was their only option to play safer and slowly bleed out lane control as the enemy team snowballed the whole map or... play more agro despite being 1v2 or 2v3 and TRY to make something good happen? Sometimes that's the case and people don't realize it. Sometimes all it would take is one little play and the whole lane or game would have swung in the other direction - but if you aren't locked onto that player(s) in that moment(s), you miss it. You don't see the potential that they saw.

Utter stupidity in forcing plays you know are bad is wrong regardless of if you "are trying to win" or if you are intentionally sabotaging your team... because you KNOW better. So those types of plays - especially done REPEATEDLY - need to be punished regardless of if the player is "intentionally" trolling or not. The standard for this goes up as you climb in elo. Stupid stuff you might get away with in bronze shouldn't be tolerated in silver. Stupid stuff you do in silver because you don't know better isn't acceptable in plat because you should know better at that elo. Etc. So yes, what you say is also true - to a point. Which I've always stood by and argued for.

shh im hiddenz kMay 23, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lost R,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=1lrWx0Td,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-05-22T21:44:57.759+0000)

It doesn't matter what happens in the game, or if the game even has a chance to begin, the entire team is now more than eager, even outright SALIVATING over the chance to surrender, to feel the humiliation and despair of defeat.

It is a fucking plague. Someone misses a minion? Autosurrender. Someone has the wrong runes? Autosurrender. The support got an assist? Autosurrender. Someone missed a skillshot? Autosurrender.

Defeatism needs to be harshly, HARSHLY, HARSHLY, HARSHLY, H̨̡͔͎̙͎̟̲ͤͥ̏̾Ą̷̼͓̘̼͓͇̥̞̮͆͐̈ͭ͂͠R͎͕͚̯̫̱ͤ̒Ŝ͍̦̉̆̏̋̓ͫ̅͝H̵̥͎̥̜̱̮̞͔̏̎̾̈ͭ͌ͤḺ̹̗̫̥ͤ́͛͑͡͞ͅY̗̦͉̏̈͒̐̿͌̋ punished, because people aren't even playing the game anymore. They just meander about looking for any reason to force a surrender, and that is what will kill not just this game or every future game that may succeed it, but the entirety of this species.

You die a** lot**. I am literally learning Zyra, far from my support main, and average less deaths than you.

KarfussMay 23, 20182 votes

Defeatism isn't ALL bad.

If I wasn't pessimistic and a glass half full, I'd've quit League after Season 5. You'll drive yourself face first into disappointment, into quitting or getting banned for toxicity if you think 'well, we MIGHT win' in every single game you play. The more you're able to go 'not a chance in hell,' the faster you quit caring.

I find League fantastically more enjoyable when I do not care about the outcome. That isn't, of course, how it's supposed to be... But with balancing the way that it is, it's going to have to do.

Though I agree with the point. Spamming surrender is just outright obnoxious. Riot doesn't pay me enough to deal with players spamming surrender at every given opportunity and flame everyone for not conforming.

minorhacksMay 23, 20182 votes

Had a game other day we were down 12_6 kills gave 1st tower. Bunch of team wanted to ff at 15. The other team had early game champs that fall off a cliff. We had a bunch of late game monsters. Lucky before 20 we got a few kills. Game went on we scaled and won. Now down 22_6 and your champs dont scale..different story.

The Space CowboyMay 23, 20181 votes

I agree. Especially in ranked I don’t even think ff in ranked should be a thing.

SpongebobIsLifeMay 23, 20188 votes

uh no, there are several times where the game is far beyond winning.