How to provide feedback

Hyrum Graff·Sep 5, 2014·19 votes·2,103 views

Option 1: Hey Hyrum, you're ugly.

Look, Ma, someone's discovered how to be an asshole! [ignores you]

Option 2: Hey Hyrum, your haircut is ugly.

Um, good to know, I guess? Doesn't make you less of an asshole. [considers getting a new haircut]

Option 3: Hey Hyrum, your haircut doesn't work, because your side-burns are uneven.

D'oh! Yeah, I should probably deal with that. [gets better haircut]

Unsurprising plot twist is unsurprising: I'm Riot (or really, the community in general) and you're providing feedback.

Option 1: Riot your game sux.
Option 2: Riot, the Sona rework failed.
Option 3; Riot, the Sona rework failed because she has trouble making optimal use of her auras, but she needs to be balanced as if she is making optimal use of them.

Option 1 gets ignored. Option 2 gets listened to. Option 3 gets listened to, and is a place where we can have a conversation with Riot (and with the rest of the community).

#tl;dr, If you want to have a conversation, and feel like you're being heard, provide specific, constructive, actionable feedback.

######This post created mostly so I can link people here instead of having to re-write this each time someone isn't giving useful feedback.

edit: PS. I will get to responding to you all, I'm just a little pressed for time right now.

40 Comments

Sir ArmaMalumSep 5, 20144 votes

Going to also tack this on: Unreasonable Complaints and why they are so by Dessembrae

As well as a small snippet of "If you expect something to happen immediately you shouldn't be surprised when it takes longer"

Linna ExcelSep 5, 20144 votes

I think your suggestion isn't going to work with the group of people who've tried going option 3 but have been ignored to the point they've become cynical and bitter, making option 1 a nice outlet for them.

MrBuffingtonSep 5, 20146 votes

The outlet is fine; they're still going to be ignored though. I think OP is directing his post towards people who want to provide legitimate feedback, not just QQ because they feel ignored.

I personally have come to the understanding that Riot probably isn't going to reply to stuff I post unless:

It's some cool fan-made stuff (not like "rito put this skin in the game" but more like "look at this cool thing I made")
I'm asking about a particular bug on Boards (not in the game, just Boards).

I do however get the impression that Riot is reading a lot of what comes up on Boards; they just choose not to respond to a lot of content since they're busy and it's better for them not to have to get entangled in rage threads or get bombarded with a bunch of hate over some change that some people are very vocal and outspoken about (where the other ~70 million players don't seem to care).

Garlyle WildsSep 5, 20142 votes

Honestly, if they spent all their time chatting with players, they'd never be able to actually work on the game!

Either way, whether players and rioters agree on something or not, I think that Riot has a respect for the passion players have for the game and, given the amount of crap slung their way, probably do really appreciate respect in return.

People can agree to disagree, afterall.

Linna ExcelSep 5, 20144 votes

In games, most players don't follow the forums or even read the log in screen. Whenever Burn Jita happened in EVE there were big threads about it months ahead of time and after the first one, details about it were posted in the log in screen so people would know about it. And yet people still complained whenever their ships got blown up because they weren't paying attention to all that.

So the people not saying anything pretty much have to be ignored because they can't be bothered to contribute.

Anyways, even if riot is reading things, I'm not entirely sure that it matters that they are reading things if they just blow off what the fans are saying.

Take the Ahri rework. Riot had an AoE champ where you can't control 2/3rds of the AoE and focused her around damaging a single target where she already had DFG for that. People stopped playing her until she was buffed again and riot had to wonder why. Yet people did communicate that her new charm was an issue before that rework went live, riot just chose to ignore them.

What happened? The rework went live, her kit was being pulled apart, she lost her mage playstyle, and riot was shocked that people stopped playing her for a bit. This was called by the fans.

Essence reaver was another thing. It was a problem before it was released, it was a problem after it was released, and it was more of a problem after it was reworked. The fans called that the whole time yet riot seemed to ignore the key problem (build path) or couldn't be bothered to explain why they left the build path in a sucky state.

Or take the upcoming cass rework. It's really changing her theme from poison as a useful mechanic and core to her theme to poison as a marking system for her E. That's not cass. She's a snake, poison needs to be an important mechanic for her and not just the set up for her only skill with power in it.

So it doesn't matter if riot is reading things because their egos (or contempt for their fanbase) is growing too large to listen to what people are saying. I'm thinking they are just cherry picking what they want to hear at best. No it isn't easy and yes there are a lot of contradictory things you have to dig through but generally the more you know, the more questions are raised.

I starting to think riot doesn't sees things like us, doesn't understand us, and doesn't want the game we want. That's not good for anyone. So reading isn't going to help if they don't care about what they are reading. Given their plethora of failed reworks, I think it's pretty clear that they don't care. It's possible they are just incompetent but that doesn't seem like a good alternative to not caring/contempt.

TrinityunicornSep 10, 20141 votes

So it doesn't matter if riot is reading things because their egos (or contempt for their fanbase) is growing too large to listen to what people are saying.

I don't think its contempt for their fanbase, but I'm coming to the realization that the road is forking, players are still on the same road and riot is going down the other path. Riot is steering towards the growth of esports and the spread of the popularity of the game. So because of the diverging focuses you get some indifference to certain aspects. What they consider fanbase has changed. What they are doing and where they are going has changed.

So yes, they are listening but what they are listening for and about and where their concern may lay is different now.

I starting to think riot doesn't sees things like us, doesn't understand us, and doesn't want the game we want. That's not good for anyone. So reading isn't going to help if they don't care about what they are reading. Given their plethora of failed reworks, I think it's pretty clear that they don't care.

You might be right. Whether its good or bad I can't say but it may be a very real disconnect from the roots of what launched the game and drove it to the popularity at its current status.

Hyrum GraffSep 5, 20142 votes

I think OP is directing his post towards people who want to provide legitimate feedback, not just QQ because they feel ignored.

You're correct, but I think you'll find these two categories aren't quite so black-and-white.

I personally have come to the understanding that Riot probably isn't going to reply to stuff I post unless:

Riot doesn't often reply to stuff (depending on how much you think "often" is - in some sense there's just a lot of content on the forums, and rioters can't possibly address it all), but I find that writing type 3 feedback greatly increases the chances that they will respond.

For a while, when the Boards were smaller, I had a riot response rate of roughly 25% (I got a red resonse in 1/4 of my posts - probably 1/3 of my posts directed at Riot).

MrBuffingtonSep 5, 20141 votes

I think you'll find these two categories aren't quite so black-and-white.

Yea, I was more referring to the people who just want to QQ

Riot doesn't often reply to stuff (depending on how much you think "often" is - in some sense there's just a lot of content on the forums, and rioters can't possibly address it all), but I find that writing type 3 feedback greatly increases the chances that they will respond.

I usually try to direct type 3 feedback to the community, with the understanding that Riot is probably reading and will jump in if they want to. I think Pendragon was saying that Boards are more for the community to talk amongst ourselves, and Riot will jump in wherever relevant/necessary.

Hyrum GraffSep 5, 20142 votes

I usually try to direct type 3 feedback to the community,

Yes. This post was intended to address feedback directed at any group of people. Heck, it doesn't even need to be league-related.

Sir ArmaMalumSep 5, 20144 votes

I agree with Mr.Buffington.

People (treated as a group) will always complain, it's natural and should be expected when enough people talk about something. If the people in your example recognize they are probably not going to get a response when they start flinging mud everywhere, ok, it's our job as a community to ignore them and not reinforce the behavior (in a perfect world.....). However, it's when people think that Option 1 is legitimately better at getting a response than Option 3 that we have a serious issue and have a degrading community standard.

Linna ExcelSep 5, 20141 votes

ArmaMalum... it's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease. Option 1 is more squeaky than option 3. A lot of people have tried option 3 plenty of times, were correct in their estimations, only to see riot flip them off when a thousand "you suck nerf whoever" threads get results.

So why keep trying option 3 when it harder and it doesn't work?

MrBuffingtonSep 5, 20142 votes

I've seen hundreds of "you suck nerf whoever" threads get hundreds of upvotes and comments and absolutely no Red attention. I've literally had type 3 posts that had like, 2 upvotes and 2 comments, one of which was from a Red.

Actually, most of the posts where I've gotten Red responses haven't been well received by the community, there's no huge outpouring of "omg rito plz do dis", it just goes under the radar for the most part.

Linna ExcelSep 5, 20141 votes

I'd argue it affects riot more than they let on. Basically it has to do with human psychology. The more you hear something, the more likely you are to believe it. So if they log in and read that champ X sucks every day for a month, they start taking it to heart.

So there is science suggesting that going option one a dozen times will get you more results than going option 3 once.

MrBuffingtonSep 5, 20141 votes

Well there's a difference between volume of feedback and toxicity.

Option 1: Riot your game sux. Option 2: Riot, the Sona rework failed. Option 3; Riot, the Sona rework failed because she has trouble making optimal use of her auras, but she needs to be balanced as if she is making optimal use of them.

You get a bunch of option 3 threads, sounds like there's something you need to take a look at. You get a bunch of option 1s, even if you wanted to do something about it, what would you do? That post literally offers nothing you can act on, nothing of value whatsoever. You start mixing the two, and Riot literally has to sit there and wade through the toxic sludge to get to the valuable information. It's literally just more work for them. You offer a clear, well organized post with a civil discussion, it's easier to get involved.

At this current moment for me, there are three threads under "Hot" sorting that have Red responses. One is a bug report on Boards (one submitted by me, a simple question, Riot solved the issue almost right as I posted the question and responded to the thread. Simple), another is a cool thing someone made (it's actually really cool, go check it out if you haven't), the third is asking for a calm discussion. Five of the top six threads have tons of upvotes and comments, all of them on the same controversial topic, many of them are full of veiled (and blatant) insults, no Red response. If you're trying to help someone out and they're slapping you in the face the entire time, why would you put yourself in that situation? Why not just wait for someone to post a civil discussion and get involved with that?

Linna ExcelSep 5, 20141 votes

Good points. But the red didn't reply to the topic on the calm debate itself, he replied to the guy saying wait and see.

Also the threads that are anti-riot are about the lore and TBH, it seems riot's minds are set on the retcon. People are mad about the change but riot's already made their decision. So there's nothing for them to reply to.

MrBuffingtonSep 5, 20141 votes

As you pointed out, there's a difference between Riot attention and Riot response; Pendragon has said that Boards are more for the community to communicate amongst ourselves, with Reds interacting wherever necessary, or as "part of the community" themselves (they like this game too, they can get excited about cool stuff as well).

The debate more is for players to discuss among themselves, what I was trying to point out is that a "calm discussion" is more welcoming than a rage filled discussion. The Red is basically answering a few question in their spare time; clarifying that other questions could be answered once the update is released on PBE, and even asking about some confusion some players might have.

And that's what OP was talking about; there's nothing to reply to in option 1 threads. The topic is still very controversial, so even if a civil debate comes up, and a Red responds to it, they just incur the wrath of all the people from the other threads, blaming them for not responding to their thread (more option 1 stuff), which they can't really respond to (since it's option 1 stuff), and then the Reds get accused of ignoring the community, and the cycle continues. So why not avoid all of that, come back when people have cooled off a bit. I personally think there's some valuable feedback in those threads, but I don't know for sure since even I don't feel like sifting through all the toxicity to read those threads.

In my experience, Riot is a company that strives towards quality; there have been times when announced changes have been delayed or altered due to quality concerns. There have been champions in works for months that get scrapped days before they release because they didn't meet Riot's quality standards. If there are legitimate concerns about something Riot makes, they will take it into account, even if they don't explicitly respond to it at that moment.

That being said, people naturally resist change. It's bad practice to kill your ideas before they even happen because you have a few critics; you'd never get anything done. They've hardly done more than announce that lore is changing, instead of responding to every critic, why not release some changes and let them speak for themselves. If there are still problems, they can address them at that point. No one has to get everything right the first time.

Linna ExcelSep 5, 20141 votes

What's the point of getting a red response if it doesn't get you the end results you want? Hashinshin has gotten a few red posts about bruisers vs ADCs still being out of whack and the item rework never coming. Bruisers vs ADCs are still out of whack and we are still waiting for the bruiser itemization rework.

That being said, people naturally resist change.

Stupid changes should be resisted because they are stupid.

Sadly, Riot likes pushing through stupid changes Karma . So I'm wondering if getting riot's attention is even a good thing because they'll screw it up Cassiopeia , not help the situation Sejuani Evelynn , or create even worse issues Nidalee .

I can only go by their track record on these things and it isn't one to be proud of. Which leads me back to option 1: riot's track record on certain issues suck and trying to debate why they are sucky seems pointless.

Discussions with Devs Riven : Cass's rework is a problem because you screwed her up thematically and you put too much focus on utility and her E. It also doesn't fix the issue of the meta which is hurting her. Teemo : Shut up, we are going that route because we are awesome and you should trust us. Riven : But the route you are taking is wrong for the champ because what I've stated earlier. Why should I trust you? Teemo : Because I'm awesome, I just said so, and there are players I can cherry pick who'll agree with me. Riven : But there are a lot of players who really like Cass for those things, you should consider them. Teemo : I don't care, my mind is made up. Riven : So basically, I'm wasting my time trying to convince you this is a big mistake and one that you aren't going to fix because reasons? Teemo : Pretty much Riven : Teemo, you suck

MrBuffingtonSep 5, 20142 votes

riot's track record on certain issues suck and trying to debate why they are sucky seems pointless.

assuming this is true, QQing is a better option?

you screwed her up

^That's an attack on the developer, just QQ, why take it seriously?

you put too much focus on utility and her E. It also doesn't fix the issue of the meta which is hurting her

^Legitimate feedback, clouded by toxicity immediately preceeding it.

The funny thing is that Cass rework is in PBE; they have their own Boards, where they discuss feedback there. It's assumed that people on these Boards haven't played Cass rework yet, ie. they don't know what they're talking about since they haven't tried it yet, so who's opinion would you give more weight to; the people who probably have never seen your project and are already bashing it, or the people who are actively testing it and providing you feedback on issues they've had, what they think works, what doesn't, etc? If you take a look at the Cass PBE thread, there are ~300 comments on the Cass thread, 1/6th of them are from a Red. The main post is actively updated with what the Red sees as being common trends in feedback, new directions to take the rework, etc.

Linna ExcelSep 5, 20141 votes

Telling riot they suck when it becomes clear they don't give a crap about your opinion feels better.

Telling someone they screwed up is not an attack, it's making them aware they are doing it wrong.

they don't know what they're talking about since they haven't tried it yet, so who's opinion would you give more weight to; the people who probably have never seen your project and are already bashing it, or the people who are actively testing it and providing you feedback on issues they've had, what they think works, what doesn't, etc?

In terms of direction or QA on what you've done? In terms of QA, you trust the QA boards. In terms of direction, anyone who has played her more than a few times should have a valid opinion on her. If the direction they are taking is total dumbbutt, you don't need QA for that. If it looks like poop on paper, you can call that out. If their numbers are off for what they are trying to do now, QA should find that out with time.

MrBuffingtonSep 5, 20141 votes

Telling riot they suck when it becomes clear they don't give a crap about your opinion feels better.

Lol, like I said, vent all you want, it isn't going to solve anything though. Does flaming your team in solo q make them win harder/better/faster/stronger?

Telling someone they screwed up is not an attack, it's making them aware they are doing it wrong.

I wasn't criticizing the content of your comment, only the manner that it was delivered. Instead of "you screwed her up", something like "I disagree with the direction you're taking her" or "I think the direction you are taking with her conflicts with her theme". The latter two open up the conversation a lot more and allows for more discussion.

In terms of direction, anyone who has played her more than a few times should have a valid opinion on her

My point is that people who haven't played her don't truly know what direction she's being taken in. People in PBE have just as much knowledge regarding directions, I'm sure there are plenty of Cass mains in PBE testing her out right now. The people in PBE have a more complete opinion; they have the experience of having played her before and the experience of playing her update. They're not just there to test bugs (they have separate bug report threads); they provide insight on how the character feels as well.

Moreover, the people actually working on Cass are busy in the PBE forums and actually working on her; they're already sifting through the PBE thread for feedback, why would they need to sift through the main boards as well? Heck, the people on PBE are probably on Boards as well, they'll relay the information if it's relevant.

Hyrum GraffSep 5, 20141 votes

No need to respond to this; I'd just like to point out for the clarity of people reading this that "you suck nerf whoever" is actually Option 2 post.

MrBuffingtonSep 5, 20141 votes

lol and here I am knee deep in your thread #thanksHyrum :P

MrBuffingtonSep 5, 20143 votes

Hyrum, you are beautiful <3

EDIT: I like the way you keep your hair, you should continue to do so in a similar manner, however, may I suggest hair product X? I have found that it is an acceptable and affordable means of maintaining similar hairstyles.

Fix'd :P

DecritSep 5, 20146 votes

Still no constructive feedback, it' s still option 1) :<

Hyrum GraffSep 5, 20144 votes

This is actually also true. Saying "All praise Riot they are perfect always," really doesn't add anything to the conversation, and is annoying, at times.

However, while I would prefer if people didn't do either, I'd rather see blind adoration than blind hatred, simply because it's not as upsetting, and makes the atmosphere friendlier towards Rioters, which in turn provides positive feedback when they come to post, so they do that more often.

SecretAgentHulkSep 5, 20142 votes

Nice. It's really frustrating to see people complaining especially about the lore right now BECAUSE all they have done is announce that they are dismantling the old lore. Nobody outside Riot has seen what they have planned, which is apparently huge but can't be revealed because they're not ready for release yet.

I realize that people are invested in the old lore (that's where my engagement clicked, even if by the time I got here the League as an idea had been so far abandoned that I agree it was ready to go), but I wish they had more open minds to what Riot can do. If the community is this smart and talented--see most of the top posts on the boards today--surely Riot can be smart about what they do.

Anyway that was rather long and kinda tangential but I just wanted to thank you for keeping an even keel and waiting for Rito to screw up before criticizing them EDIT and keeping that criticism constructive.

Sneak DogSep 5, 20142 votes

I'd like to point out that in my eyes, Riot already screwed up with their new lore. I won't go into detail in this thread, but I've posted among numerous other threads how I feel that they messed up Trundle in the Freljord event, an event mentioned in the dev blog and one that happened a significant amount of time ago, making it a valid subject for review. I do like to think that I keep my criticism constructive (emotions do flare up when you see something you love retconned), so if you want to discuss in another thread about this new lore, I'm up for it.

StarlighteSep 5, 20141 votes

Humor this question Hyrum ^^

Let's say you pursue option 3, passionately posting about how Lux needs a new skin for reasons A-Z and the skin ought not be military. You are then greeted with agreement from Riot, suggesting that Steel Legion Lux missed the mark of fantasy for Lux players. Going forward, they are going to do better in making sure that they hit the fantasy players want.

But then, Riot goes dark. Silent as a mouse. Realistically, more silent than a mouse because mice make scratching noises and sometimes Riot doesn't even utter a peep or a nod of remembrance. How do you propose that a poster should continue the conversation? Riot has obviously left, and that is causing the OP or the community following the thread to grow angry, or annoyed. And honestly, it is with pretty decent reason. They received some actionable interaction with Rioters, and then they just checked out of the thread.

How do you suggest that people keep from falling back to styles 1 or 2 of posting? Especially when emotions become inflammed, or Riot seems to not quite get the feedback?

We've all seen changes reverted by Riot, and we've all seen Riot stick by their guns. And both scenarios have turned out well and poorly. Recently though, at least from an apparent communications standpoint, Riot sticks to their guns moreso than not. How does a concerned player voice themselves in style 3 without having moments of weakness to fall back to style 1 or 2, which are a far more guttural and unfiltered emotional response?

MrBuffingtonSep 5, 20142 votes

Well, I'm not Hyrum, but I'll humor your question:

How do you propose that a poster should continue the conversation? Riot has obviously left

..Or they're busy working on the skin? Too, if Riot has already responded saying they like the idea, what else is there to talk about, just back and forth banter about how it's a good idea? Feedback received, let's move on.

Honestly though, much of the time, legal issues prevent Riot from copy-pasting community skin ideas into the game. More than likely, the skin idea will serve as influence for them to make future skins. A lot of the time, the Reds who post on these threads are posting as fans of the game; they think the skin is a good idea, even though they themselves probably don't work on skins at all or have too much influence on what skins are made. They'll probably bring up the idea in a meeting, or talk/shoot an email to a person who's more directly involved in making skins, but again, they can't just copy-paste skin ideas into the game (and oftentimes it's not even the person who make the skin idea that's posting it on boards, 99% of the time I just see someone who found a cool concept art on deviantArt or something. So what, they get permission from the artist? What if they decline, do they throw the artist under the bus?).

Skins take a long time to make too, and with Riot's quality control, even longer. Community members (myself included) can come up with a whole new champion concept in a few days or even a few hours; Sir ArmaMalum's contests attract dozens of new concepts, and there are plenty being made even when there isn't a contest. Champions, however, easily take several months to years to create. A skin could require a huge remodeling of the character, which also requires extensive bug testing. Couple that with quality assurance, making sure only the best and highest quality skins make it to the game, and it actually takes quite a long time to develop a skin.

How do you suggest that people keep from falling back to styles 1 or 2 of posting? Especially when emotions become inflammed, or Riot seems to not quite get the feedback?

How do you keep yourself from tilting in solo q? Same principle. Yea, I know it happens, to all of us, really, but it isn't going to get you a response, just like flaming your teammates isn't going to make them win the game. Some days you tilt, that's fine, happens to everyone, just try to keep it to a minimum, take a walk if you're angry, whatever it takes.

StarlighteSep 5, 20141 votes

So, the point of a skin was simply that. A point. I may be quite passionate about it, but arguing the validity of the point was not my objective here.

The objective was to demonstrate an instance where Riot engages in conversation, but in an inadequate or insufficient way (at least seemingly for the community)

As for comparing type 1 and 2 responses to going on tilt, sure there is a correlation. Getting up and taking a walk is often inadequate in some situations.

An example:

The silence of the lore department for nearly 3 years.

You can't exactly get up and take a breather to avoid getting frustrated with Riot on that one.

The goal isn't to find a method to calm yourself down so you don't divert to a type 1 or 2 post. Realistically, the goal is to recognize behaviors or phrases that are associated with type 1 or 2 posts, and how to train yourself to develop posts that are constructive and productive like type 3 posts. How does one recognize as they are making a post that they are falling into this mindset?

MrBuffingtonSep 5, 20141 votes

I mean, new lore comes out with every champion; the Freljiord event offered a lot of new lore. I may be wrong, but I'm sure when JoJ was discontinued, Riot had some statement on that; constant reminders is simply dwelling on the past, and Riot has new work to do.

In my experience, whenever Riot announces something, and it doesn't release within the next week, people get pretty impatient. Sometimes it's good to wait until you're just about ready to release something; this too helps minimize the chances it will get canceled at the last minute or that they'll make some change and delay the release even further and be accused of "not keeping promises". The changes to the lore are pretty huge; I'm sure Riot's lore department went over hundreds of iterations before they got to where they are now. It's more common now that champions are becoming less and less intertwined with the League and the original conflicts in the game, so these lore changes could have been in the works for a long time.

As far as particular phrases, it's similar to face to face conversations. I'm not perfect on this front, but some things I've noticed are that calling Riot out on things is usually pretty confrontational. Directing posts specifically at certain Rioters puts them on the spot; if they don't respond, they seem negligent. Sure, it might get you a response (I very rarely see this, though), but it's probably not something they're excited to respond to. Also trying to remain objective; if you're offering feedback, it shouldn't just be about yourself or how you feel, your emotions on the subject (you can add these in of course, but it shouldn't revolve around you). Ideally, feedback should be generalizable, if it seems like your post is just about you, it becomes very difficult to separate the actionable feedback from your emotions.

The best analogy I have (unfortunately) still is to going on tilt; if you've ever found yourself stuck in an elo, do you recognize yourself going on tilt? How do you know when you're frustrated? If you can recognize this, take a break, breathe, and come back when you're feeling better or clearer.

Having solid structure really helps: Think about what you're trying to communicate. Strip that down to the bare minimum points you can, and work your thread around that. Example:

I don't think [x]'s rework is successful
Here are the reasons I don't think [x]'s rework is successful
Here's a suggestion on how I think the rework can be improved
Here's why I think these suggestions are an improvement

Trying to stick to your argument points helps you stay focused on what you're trying to convey, and also gives your feedback structure, which is much easier to figure out what you want done and why. Again, it's hard to stay perfect, but progress is still progress, even if slow

MrBuffingtonSep 6, 20141 votes

Here are two posts that Ghostcrawler made on how Riot tends to view feedback; I thought they might be relevant

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=49762043#post49762043

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=49763112#post49763112

TrinityunicornSep 6, 20141 votes

Well after reading those links, I'm thinking that its useless to sound off at all because what they are really looking at is data, not listening to people. Did I read that wrong?

I'd say this is somewhat faulty but so would be other choices. I think maybe it would be better to take it ALL in and make the best choice. This means that you are utilizing the ideas that maybe haven't been thought of by staff and utilizing the expertise of the experts.

It would be an awful silly mistake to look at the numbers and decide that the player base is still growing therefore the servers don't need any update. I'm using that as an example because it seems obvious to me that if the performance continues they eventually will lose players. Likewise it would imo be a mistake to not address the toxicity in their community because by the time their numbers reflect the dissatisfaction they may already have players that are on their way out the door AND moving groups of friends with them while also not recommending their game but warning about it. Not to mention the loss of potential players due to not wanting to bring others into that environment.

What's a bit disappointing for me as an individual if that IS the way it works is that I need to vote with my presence or absence in the game or with my playing of certain champions in order to exert any influence upon the system.

Did I interpret that wrong?

MrBuffingtonSep 6, 20141 votes

Did I interpret that wrong?

I can't speak for Ghostcrawler, but my interpretation is a bit different. Boards and Forums are best used as qualitative data; this gives them direction on how to change the game. Boards and Forums don't work well as quantitative data, since most players don't use Boards or Forums (a popular thread on Boards can usually get between 40-100 upvotes, maybe more, and a few hundred or thousand views. A popular Riot Announcement post can usually get 100+ upvotes and have several hundred thousand views; and this is just for the users that regularly check the site. The playerbase overall is ~70 million).

On the one side, you can look at data. Say Champion Y has a 55% win ratio and 1% pick/ban ratio across all elos. What could this mean? A lot of people might look at the stats and say that this champion is overpowered, due to the higher than average win ratio. On the other hand, the champion has a very low pick/ban ratio, suggesting that there is a relatively few number of players playing that champion; this could mean that those few players have greater expertise with this champion and thus are likely to win more of their games. This seems okay. However, you look at Champion Z, who has a win ratio of 55% and has a 70% pick/ban ratio, and something seems strange. It seems strange that 70% of the player base could be an expert in this champion, which seems to suggest the champion itself is too strong.

This is about the limit of what data can give you. Perhaps you can identify a problem champion, that is overwhelming all areas of play in all regions, and as a result, should be toned down. How do you approach this? This is where player feedback comes in, and, as is the purpose of this thread, good feedback becomes very important. If you have a thread that says "omg rito Champion Z is so op nerf plz", it doesn't tell you much. You understand there's a problem, mostly because the data also supports it, but there's nothing for you to gain from this thread, aside from a (relatively small, due to the smaller userbase of Boards) portion of the community is having trouble vs Champion Z. However, if you have a thread like "I think Champion Z is too powerful because their Q provides high early game damage without much counter play for the following reasons..." etc. there is much more to be gained; you now realize that it is Champion Z's Q that is problematic, and that it is the early game damage without counterplay that is the problem. You can now examine this closer, make changes on PBE, and see how the changes affect the PBE environment, and if that feedback was correct. If not, search for more feedback on the direction to take the champion.

Another case is where you hear a complaint like "I think Champion X is too strong because their E gives them a reliable gap closer and escape". This could be a problem, but you look at Champion X's stats and they have a 45% win rate and 10% pick/ban ratio. Again, it might be a problem, but the low win ratio suggests that most players are having an okay time dealing with Champion X, and that this player making the complaint might just be having a hard time dealing with this champion. You keep an eye on this champion because the complaint raised a valid point, but the numbers don't support this champion being a problem case at the moment, so you hold back on making changes at the current time.

This is the general structure of how the feedback works in an ideal sense, albeit greatly simplified. They need both systems of data/feedback in order to make complete decisions. They can't act on feedback alone, since feedback typically represents a small portion of the overall community. There may be a majority of the playerbase that will agree with the feedback, but the numbers (upvotes and view count on the thread) don't represent that larger playerbase (since they don't use Boards), and so Riot can't assume that the feedback represents the opinion of the majority.

TrinityunicornSep 7, 20141 votes

They need both systems of data/feedback in order to make complete decisions. They can't act on feedback alone, since feedback typically represents a small portion of the overall community. There may be a majority of the player base that will agree with the feedback, but the numbers (upvotes and view count on the thread) don't represent that larger player base (since they don't use Boards), and so Riot can't assume that the feedback represents the opinion of the majority.

Well in certain cases I do think they are listening to some ideas. After seeing some really well thought out posts on the LMQ issue, I think that the community feedback/thinking helped to formulate this: http://na.lolesports.com/articles/interregional-movement-and-expansion-tournament

I think though, that because it became an issue within the community <and perhaps among the pro teams> that they made some decisions, which is different from reworks or the new lore. I don't think there is any altering course on those because before the community even hears about it, it is already a done deal. The corporate decision has been made and its more of an announcement of where they are going rather than any sort of issue to be resolved or changed. There's not any room factored in for change or suggestions or there is very little.

I just hope in some sense they are keeping a finger on the pulse of the cries of the masses because while all arguments pro or con may not be valid, or have valid arguments, there is usually some idea that is being formed that people are reacting to. The discussion can narrow it down and hone it to a core idea and that's when the feedback can be really useful.

MrBuffingtonSep 7, 20141 votes

From the looks of things, LMQ and TSM's rosters are fine for now, which is good, I think; it'd suck if Riot just deported LMQ and Lustboy/Bjergsen/Amazing or something (if I read that right, they're all "exempt non-residents" because they played this year). I wonder how many roster changes are going to happen before next season.

I don't know how things have been in the pro scene; I think most mid laners are good friends with XiaoWeiXiao, for example, and many players are friends with Vasili. I don't think it's a secret that the NA audience hasn't been so welcoming though (which honestly irks me; the crowd seems far more receptive of players like Lustboy, Amazing, and Bjergsen since they're on TSM, but they're every bit as not-NA as LMQ, and LMQ just gets shafted).

Anyways, I don't really know what to make of their method of presenting a direction they're going with after they're pretty much complete with the work. On one hand, the audience then knows what to expect for sure, since they're pretty much far down that road already; there isn't much room for large deviations. I think there is some room for more community collaboration in PBE, but for the most part, I don't think it's very common that they scrap large portions of a rework and start a change over from scratch, though this could be for a multitude of reasons (maybe they've gotten it mostly right already, maybe they've got what they think is close enough and want to make tweaks before pushing it live, and continuing to tweak from there). I don't think they can or should open up the process to be completely collaborative; that seems more like pandering to whatever they hear on forums, which really represents a very small part of the playerbase.

I just hope in some sense they are keeping a finger on the pulse of the cries of the masses

I'm sure they want to, but understand that even if everyone on Boards is unanimous in a single thing (which is rarely the case), we're still not the masses. We're probably <1% of the playerbase.

Hyrum GraffSep 6, 20141 votes

I think you interpreted that... close. But again, this is just my interpretation, so I could be wrong as well:

I think you're right on about the part where they don't listen to players so much about factual things. For example, If someone says, "I'm getting afks in 3/4 games," they're just not going to take that very seriously, because they know that there are far fewer afks than that.

However, they DO listen to the player experience. If there are only afks in 1/100 games, but there are players all over the forums spamming "too many afks" threads, there are still too many afks, because players are being affected negatively by them.

They don't listen to playres when we try to make assertions about "facts" of the game, unless perhaps we're Pros. But they most certainly DO listen to the player experience.

I'll finish off by talking about your example:

It would be an awful silly mistake to look at the numbers and decide that the player base is still growing therefore the servers don't need any update.

So, I think it would go something more like this:

Look at numbers, player base is still growing. This suggests servers don't need an update yet.
Look at forums, see that people are annoyed by server unreliability (however small it is).
Make an educated decision based on BOTH of those factors

TrinityunicornSep 7, 20141 votes

I probably worded that wrong, and it would most likely be more accurate to say, "Look at the numbers and see that player base is still growing therefore the complaints about disconnects and latency are not a problem." I change this because, I don't know that the servers actually do need an update <I'm pretty computer/server stupid.> I do know that the ddos attacks are effecting the whole player base and upsetting the players because of frequency coupled with other problems high ping, frequent patches, and bugs after those patches, and disconnects due to maintenance of those bugs and patches, along with extreme lag equals a lot of reasons for the player base to be upset.

lmao, that being said, complaining may be the most effective way to affect change.

There's got to be a better way to forge ahead!

What I'd like to see is......Riot come up with some acceptable choices, present them to the community, then get the feedback and make an informed decision about that. So the choices that they decide upon are doable, they set the criteria, the community gets a say in the direction so to speak. I think that would bring about more resolution and break it to the community in a gentler way and would help to calm the feelings of alienation and feelings of being ignored and shocked in the decision. I also think it would reduce complaints in general.

Here's the general idea, I help take care of my elderly mother. She doesn't cook anymore so we cook and fix all meals for her. Some things she can't have due to health concerns. Denying what she wants creates problems and emotional upset. However, presenting her with options of this or that, gives her satisfaction in being able to choose, and bypassing the frustrations of not being able to eat certain things she wants.

PurpleKingCrazySep 7, 20141 votes

Your suggestion is valid. By constructing a valid explanation, you plan to make a reasonable suggestion about considering reevaluating everyone's arguments to consider their reason they like / don't like X or Y thesis. That is not to say that this post is the best explanation. In short words, improve the structure of yourself. Think about what you're doing before posting a topic.

Good evidence.

Earl EulrichSep 7, 20141 votes

And then we take a look at all thethreads about the treatment of their lore from riots side, all of them making very valid arguments without falling into bad/aggressive language - Riot doesn´t seem to care. They just filter out what they want to hear anyway, no matter how you formulate it, unfortunately.