I just had a perfect game playing Zyra! Do you know what that means?

Aerothal·Apr 15, 2015·88 votes·4,871 views

It means my passive was absolutely worthless. Never used it, had zero benefit from it. With you actually indirectly get nerfed when you have a good game. Zyra's Death Passive is so useless. Its a clunky, 2 seconds delayed skillshot with a low range that most mobile champions can walk out of without breaking sweat. @CertainlyT : Can you please consider reworking that passive to something meaningful? One should not have to die to be able to use a passive and then have a low percentage chance of maybe getting a revenge kill.

Respectfully, Aerothal

100 Comments

Leblancs BoobApr 15, 201558 votes

Wait.. Hold the phone.. Zyra has a passive?

SwainDaRokJensenApr 15, 20153 votes

It's news to me as well.

Angelofchaos16xApr 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Wait.. Hold the phone.. Zyra has a passive?

Well, woopty doo, you learn something new everyday. I had no idea that she had a passive, or was even played after being nerfed, lol.

ModWulf HelhammerApr 15, 201536 votes

So does that mean the Kog'Maw's, Karthus's, Anivia's, Zac's, and the major part of Aatrox's passive are useless as well? At any time in the game, a champion's passive may become irrelevant, such as a late game on a Xerath (where you have good mana sustain items, so you hardly run out of mana)

junglerboy16Apr 15, 201535 votes

Kog'maw's is, because he should never be dying in an optimal situation.

Karthus's isn't because he can use it to become a massive AoE damage source and then channel his ult in peace, meaning it has a clear and necessary use that is very sound thematically and mechanically.

Anivia's isn't an on death passive, but helps you have a no death game. You can pop her passive 4 or 5 times a match and still have a perfect game.

The same goes for Zac and Aatrox, since theirs allow them as tanky initiators to have an extra safety net to help also have a perfect game, and they can go 0 deaths while still using their passive several times.

Sion's passive does slightly punish him for going perfect, but he should never have a perfect match unless the rest of his team also has a perfect match (meaning he did his job as a frontliner).

MrBuffingtonApr 15, 201512 votes

Sions passive also allows him to do stuff like kill an early jungle camp and teleport to top lane for an early advantage

Penta PenguinApr 15, 20157 votes

"You should never die" is really dumb.

junglerboy16Apr 16, 20153 votes

If you play the game perfectly, you shouldn't ever die. I don't mean "you shouldn't ever die" as if it is something you are doing that is incredibly wrong, but rather that in an optimal situation, you have a perfect game every match. Does that happen? No. If you were the most skilled player in the game it still wouldn't happen, but it is still the optimal situation (unless you're a dumb person who thinks dying for a kill is "wurf", when it impacts you more negatively than the benefits from the kill in almost any situation).

Penta PenguinApr 16, 20153 votes

I don't understand what the big deal is about playing optimally and never using your passive. It's there in case you need it, and if you don't, so what?

N30NP4NDAApr 16, 20151 votes

Sion SHOULD die once.

Earthlord JazzApr 15, 20157 votes

{quoted}

So does that mean the Kog'Maw's, Karthus's, Anivia's, Zac's, and the major part of Aatrox's passive are useless as well? At any time in the game, a champion's passive may become irrelevant, such as a late game on a Xerath (where you have good mana sustain items, so you hardly run out of mana)

I would say Karthus, Sion, Anivia, Zac, and Aatrox passive are way better than Zyra's. This is because their passive either:

a) Pose a meaningful threat to the team upon death. A Karthus death in the middle of the enemy team (as any good karthus should do) is devestating to the enemy. Sion to a lesser extent, as he's still targetable, but to an unaware team it is devastating.

b) Deter an aware enemy from blowing you up in the moment. Revive passive's such as Anivia, Aatrox, and Zac give you those confidence boosters to tower dive an enemy earlier on, or hard engage when you could not otherwise. It's also effective against an aware enemy: They won't throw all their stuff at you when you're with the team/under tower earlier on as you'll just revive while they fend off the attackers.

Zyra's passive does neither of these things. Her damage is pitiful even if it hits, which is extremely rare.

Photos of GhostsApr 16, 20152 votes

Kog'maw also gets true damage and a speedup, so I feel that even his is actually better than Zyra's.

WolfBVApr 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So does that mean the Kog'Maw's, Karthus's, Anivia's, Zac's, and the major part of Aatrox's passive are useless as well? At any time in the game, a champion's passive may become irrelevant, such as a late game on a Xerath (where you have good mana sustain items, so you hardly run out of mana)

Passives that revive you are good since they can prevent the enemy from getting a kill which is useful. Karthus's passive is always a benefit as he can easily kill champions that are within his range and assist his team, kog's passive is pretty good I suppose as it does true damage and he can chase people with it while usually always doing damage to something. But out of all of these I guess Zyra's passive is the worst and/or weakest as she has to make sure it hits something, enemies can dodge it, she can't move, it has a delay... yeah, I can see how the passive for Zyra is kinda shit.

Civil DawnApr 16, 20152 votes

{quoted}

So does that mean the Kog'Maw's, Karthus's, Anivia's, Zac's, and the major part of Aatrox's passive are useless as well? At any time in the game, a champion's passive may become irrelevant, such as a late game on a Xerath (where you have good mana sustain items, so you hardly run out of mana)

Anivia's revives her completely, to prevent a death in the first place. that's extremely valuable to her because she is low mobility and pretty squishy Kog'maw's makes him pretty fast, and does decent aoe damage. If he gets blown up in a teamfight, he can still run in the middle of the enemy team and do some damage. Zac's completely revives him, of course everyone knows how it works so it's honestly not that great unless the enemy team can't safely kill his drops. Karthus's isn't that much better than Zyra's, it's kind of like kog's in the way that he can still do damage if he gets blown up in a teamfight. Aatrox's revives him. 100% useful for dueling. At least Xerath can actually use his passive at some point in the game.

Zyra's literally is useless because everyone including slow champions can dodge it without even trying to. If you are a good Zyra, you shouldn't be dying anyways. Seriously, her passive makes no sense, it's totally uninspired. They could have done so much better. There is absolutely no reason to keep that garbage passive. It does not help anyone with a brain.

And no everyone does not have a passive that could become irrelivant... Kalista Annie Janna Lucian Leona Volibear Sona etc....

RetroRage96Apr 16, 20151 votes

With Kog'Maw and Sion, you have amazing chase potential with your passive. As Zyra you just do what a plant does: sit there. It's harder to run away from Sion and especially Kog'Maw (because his demonspawn-thing is untargetable) than Zyra.

StillnameApr 15, 20157 votes

Her kit is already pretty good on its own. Not sure what you would want to add to that that would help her out more without making her op. Also, if you look at her kit as a "Even if you focus me down I will still get you from the grave" with her plants and ult going off even if she dies, she can die in a teamfight and still get a ton of damage off and her passive helps with that theme.

Not saying it couldn't be reworked into something better but she is a solid enough champion kit-wise even if it's not currently number-wise. Would be hard to justify spending the time on her over other champions.

ChortleApr 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Her kit is already pretty good on its own. Not sure what you would want to add to that that would help her out more without making her op. Also, if you look at her kit as a "Even if you focus me down I will still get you from the grave" with her plants and ult going off even if she dies, she can die in a teamfight and still get a ton of damage off and her passive helps with that theme.

Not saying it couldn't be reworked into something better but she is a solid enough champion kit-wise even if it's not currently number-wise. Would be hard to justify spending the time on her over other champions.

This

Also her passive fits her lore of transferring herself into a human body (thus showing her true form when she dies).

It Hertz When IPApr 16, 20152 votes

I've gotten a few kills with her passive. Not many, but a few.

AerothalApr 15, 20156 votes

Anivia zac aatrox are revive passives. they don't count as death passives because they keep you alive. That's useful! Kog can move around and follow mobile champions, though IMO in his case the passive is wasteful too. Zion i am on the edge because of how his death passive functions. In general it is completely counter intuitive to have a passive that only gets activated when you die, since you want to avoid dying at all cost. I think we should do away with them!

JevelFaithfulApr 15, 20153 votes

Yet all the revive passives that only activate when you die (albeit at the end you don't). And if you have an honnest perfect game, they're wasted. How different is that from Karthus, Sion and Kog? Kog can move, but he's melee, Sion can move and rampage, but he's still melee. Karthus is immobile, but his ult and his kit gives him the boost he needs.

HOnnestly, I agree that Zyra's missile doesn't really work anymore. But not because it's a death passive. The idea isn't worse than Kog's or Sion's.

junglerboy16Apr 15, 20158 votes

It actually is. Both Kog's and Zyra's passives are horribly designed. The reason Sion's works is that it: fits thematically, helps him tank for twice as long as a normal tank by drawing focus and CC from the enemy even though he's dead, and is not just a simplistic nuke. He is a tank and a front liner and his whole job is to soak damage, and going so far as dying to soak extra while still drawing aggro as the giant Zombie monster helps him peel for his team sometimes twice as long as usual.

Kog and Zyra on the other hand have the two most useless passives in the game, not because they are necessarily bad, just because they have no place on their kits, thematically or functionally. Zyra isn't a frontline, and an on death passive is inferior to basically everything else they could give her, because unlike Sion or Karthus she never wants to die during a match. Same goes for Kog'maw, everything about his kit screams "I'm an artillery fixture that the enemy should never even touch" but his passive requires him to die (which he should never do in an optimal situation) to have any use at all, and then forces him to go melee range to use, which is doubly counterintuitive.

JevelFaithfulApr 15, 20151 votes

I actually can't argue about anything you said concerning sion. But I'd argue her passive is better designed than Kog's. Let's face it, most player will die, especially when they're on the supporty side. Either in lane or later on, I might expect the support (or a "support style mid") to die for his ADC. In those case, zyra's passive at least is ranged and allow for some form of revenge kill/nuke. Deffinately not optimal, but less counter intuitive than Kog's as you pointed out. And not automatically a flaw if the rest of her kit was strong enough to compensate (which it's not really right now). Oh and yes, it's deffinately is clunky to use right now.

Also, ideally, a karthus doesn't want to die either, he wants to be peeled for and walk around the battlefield. Of course, he is slow and not made to be durable so he'll probably die once in a while, but it's not true that karthus' job is to go die in the middle of the enemy team (at least 80% of the times, it's not exactly a good idea). Karthus doesn't mind that much dying, but his job is not to be in a position to die.

junglerboy16Apr 15, 20154 votes

I would actually say Karthuses usually want to die. His abilities have massive mana costs in a team fight situation, and his passive allows free casting. I actually read a quote by a pro player about playing against Karthus in season two, where whenever they played against xPeke, he would run right at their team while OOM, and they would all turn tail and run, because they all knew if they killed them, he would dump a ton of damage on them and as such he turned into walking no go zone for their whole team. That is part of why Karthuses like to die.

JevelFaithfulApr 16, 20151 votes

Now that is interesting. If it works at their level, I'll trust them. I have to admit I never really ran oom as Karthus (or saw one go oom) if I toggled E on and off as needed. But they never lived that long either.

SolaxoApr 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Zion i am on the edge because of how his death passive functions.

Sion* Where did you get "Z"

junglerboy16Apr 16, 20151 votes

auto spellcheck noob.

KairyaApr 15, 20156 votes

Zyra passive really is useless. Especially the big delay between dying, and being allowed to use it. If you could shoot that stalk instantly after death, there might be a higher hit chance, but at the moment everyone just walks out of range and you might as well use it to last hit a minion.

Earl EulrichApr 15, 20155 votes

So you had a perfect game and then your first thought is to buff the Champ you had a perfect game on for the very specific case when you win the game without actually having anyone able to fight you properly anyway. #firstworldproblems?

AerothalApr 15, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=fION9wto,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2015-04-15T16:23:03.235+0000)

So you had a perfect game and then your first thought is to buff the Champ you had a perfect game on for the very specific case when you win the game without actually having anyone able to fight you properly anyway. #firstworldproblems?

first of, its rare to have a perfect game on zyra. she is squishy. mostly i made this post because her passive is flawed. on release (we all can agree she was a little overboard at that time) her passive had more damage, more range and could be applied without the 2 second waiting period. The 2 second delay was added when it became apparent that she would always get a kill after dying, no exception. True dmg OP. So a 2 sec delay was added, which was fine. On top of that though, the damage on that passive was nerfed aswell. still not too bad until the mobility meta was introduced. all champions had their base ms upgraded. high mobility champions emerged with dashes and other fun stuff. now it was EZPZ to get out of zyras passive range or to dodge that passive, because of the delay and the clunkiness in execution.

All that doesnt even touch the main problem: you can only use the passive when you die. but you dont want to die. you dont want to be frontling, but rather backline in a teamfight. that puts you further away from the enemy and if you end up dying anyways, they mostly are out of passive range.

Earl EulrichApr 15, 20153 votes

if i ever fall beyond an 80% winrate on Zyra i´d opt for a buff...but as it is, she could use some actual nerfs such as lessening the front-up burst on her ult+ lowering the radius of impact. The passive is absolutly fine on her...if you don´t want to die protecting your carry you´re doing it wrong anyway.

Nucleophilic atkApr 15, 20154 votes

I don't agree that her passive is shitty just because it is a death passive, but I agree that her passive is complete shit anyway lol...and I don't even play her.

ConturbatioApr 15, 20153 votes

I hate that freaking weird ass delay when I 'try' to launch her skillshot, even though she has fully transformed to her plant form.

iainB85Apr 16, 20153 votes

KogMaw

CullensApr 15, 20152 votes

I have to agree, I'm not a huge fan of the after death passives, I don't include anivia zac or aatrox because these can actually be used without "dying", things like karthus diving into a team just to die seems counterintuitive, and as you said as zyra you basically get nothing for a passive while everyone else does. I would love to see her and kog's and maybe karthus passive redone without the need to die to have a useful passive

Champion SkinApr 15, 20152 votes

Karthus passive is really good and important though... as without it... there is almost no way for karthus to use his ult for a teamfight as using it preemptively is a bad idea and well casting during a teamfight (while still alive) is also a rather bad idea as you can get interrupted or killed And Karthus passive allows him to build mostly glass canon and even if he is killed he can still deal damage with his passive

Drunk RummateApr 15, 20152 votes

Compared to Sion, Zyra's passive is laughable. If you're going to give a champion an on death passive, at least make it a good one!

I'm a huge fan of Zyra support. My favorite champion to play in that role. But I get incredibly sad when I'm playing against a Braum or Leona and look at their beautiful passives compared to mine :/

AbiwonKenabiApr 15, 20152 votes

Her passive isn't great, but I'd rather they buff other things about her if they are going to buff anything. I'd rather have stronger plants or hell, she's squishy as hell, slow as hell, give her a teeny bit of durability! I don't pick Zyra because of her amazing passive. Very few Champions are picked because of their amazing passive. I would wager almost none, as the best passives are the ones that compliment the already existing kit. Example: Zed's passive is great, helps him deal damage, but people don't pick him for the % of health magic damage, they pick him because of his strong split push potential and mobility. Another example: Amumu's MR shred is very helpful for his whole team, but no one picks him because of that, they pick him for his tankiness and great AOE lockdown.

Thinking about passives is getting me curious about who is truly picked for their passive. Off the top of my head, I guess Gnar is picked for his passive? Even then you could argue it's just a compliment to his kit, a way for him to switch between his two forms. Rengar might be another, but I still say he's picked for his ult, which again, is complimented by his passive.

AerothalApr 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Her passive isn't great, but I'd rather they buff other things about her if they are going to buff anything. I'd rather have stronger plants or hell, she's squishy as hell, slow as hell, give her a teeny bit of durability! I don't pick Zyra because of her amazing passive. Very few Champions are picked because of their amazing passive. I would wager almost none, as the best passives are the ones that compliment the already existing kit. Example: Zed's passive is great, helps him deal damage, but people don't pick him for the % of health magic damage, they pick him because of his strong split push potential and mobility. Another example: Amumu's MR shred is very helpful for his whole team, but no one picks him because of that, they pick him for his tankiness and great AOE lockdown.

Thinking about passives is getting me curious about who is truly picked for their passive. Off the top of my head, I guess Gnar is picked for his passive? Even then you could argue it's just a compliment to his kit, a way for him to switch between his two forms. Rengar might be another, but I still say he's picked for his ult, which again, is complimented by his passive.

you are right, of course. you dont pick a champ solely for their passives. But there are many champions where the passive is a meaningful addition to their kit, often complimenting the play style of that champ. zyra's passive does not feel integrated, but rather as an afterthought. the main problem with it is that it actually is losing a lot of impact because of mobility creep. It at least needs some adjusting. increase missile range or speed OR decrease the delay. make the skillshot less clunky.

MigrañaboyApr 15, 20152 votes

I just had a perfect game playing Karthus! Do you know what that means?

Dangerous ManApr 17, 20152 votes

IKR the low damage. You don't even need to be mobile to dodge it.

The Bearded BardApr 15, 20151 votes

Just lower the delay to 1.5 seconds and widen the hit box, boom, useful passive.

AerothalApr 15, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Maokai,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=fION9wto,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2015-04-15T18:57:08.678+0000)

Just lower the delay to 1.5 seconds and widen the hit box, boom, useful passive.

thought about widening the hitbox, but i like that its a skillshot that actually takes skill to hit, not like season 3 Nidalee spears, where the hitbox was as wide as a lane! i think shortening the delay would be valuable!

The Bearded BardApr 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

thought about widening the hitbox, but i like that its a skillshot that actually takes skill to hit, not like season 3 spears, where the hitbox was as wide as a lane! i think shortening the delay would be valuable!

It should be as wide as it was on release. They nerfed everything about it after releasing her.

DengedenApr 16, 20151 votes

And we all know how realistic a perfect score is... a-hem. It's decent, it has the width of the old Nid spears (which makes it a mind game), it procs Liandry's, you can use it to push waves and in team fights, it's almost guaranteed to hit.

AerothalApr 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

And we all know how realistic a perfect score is... a-hem. It's decent, it has the width of the old Nid spears (which makes it a mind game), it procs Liandry's, you can use it to push waves and in team fights, it's almost guaranteed to hit.

width of old nid spears? where did you get those numbers? guaranteed to hit?! It's an easily avoidavle delayed missile (kinda slow too imo) you can use it to push?!? Do you even play her?

DengedenApr 16, 20151 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Nidalee/Background http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Zyra I was wrong, it's wider than the old Nid spears :] (70 to her 60)

Gawd don't take things out of context... in team fights, where people cluster and have to pay attention to the rest of your team, it'll most likely hit at least one person. It's delayed, in the sense that she can't cast it immediately (which is the problem), yes, however it's almost as fast as an Ez Q. Again, mind game. When all else fails, you can just fire it through minions, not terribly useful but worth mentioning.

Solidair3Apr 16, 20151 votes

I mean, I agree she could use a better or more usable passive, but champs like Karthus can also only use their passives when dead. THAT one certainly isn't useless, but if I got through a game I won as karth without needing to resort to it, I'd call it a victory.

CansemaApr 16, 20151 votes

dont worry ... i checked your match history ... you got some work out of her passive.

AerothalApr 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

dont worry ... i checked your match history ... you got some work out of her passive.

but thats the thing dude, the only time that i get a kill out of it is when the opponent forgets that i had that (only works one time btw) or they are inattentive and dont think about walking out of range. that hardly ever happens though. most of the time i dont get a kill with it. most of the time the opponent is well aware and runs/stays out of range. a few lucky times i got a flash out of it but mostly thats bad players forgetting that is has a 2sec activation timer. The fact that i am winning with zyra more often than not is not tied to her passive. believe you me!

CansemaApr 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

but thats the thing dude, the only time that i get a kill out of it is when the opponent forgets that i had that (only works one time btw) or they are inattentive and dont think about walking out of range. that hardly ever happens though. most of the time i dont get a kill with it. most of the time the opponent is well aware and runs/stays out of range. a few lucky times i got a flash out of it but mostly thats bad players forgetting that is has a 2sec activation timer. The fact that i am winning with zyra more often than not is not tied to her passive. believe you me!

i love zyra man .. she has fallen out of the meta .. trust me .. i know alot of waiting for people to dive on the person next to you and then swallowing them.