So I've been playing more and more Karma lately, and it's really fun and has been going really well. I don't know if it's just a coincidence, or I'm just really bad, or people don't know how to play against her, but for some reason I've been doing really well with her and I'm confused as to why she's not meta other than not having much kill potential early on (imo). What do you guys think?
Nexus Crawler8 votesKarma is actually regarded as a very strong champion in Dominion for several reasons.
Her base numbers are actually pretty good. Q does upwards of 260 + .6 at max rank on a 5 or 6 second cool down ramping up to a huge base (higher than max rank Nid spear) if you catch them in both the initial and secondary AoE with a 1.5 ratio. W provides both great damage and sustain when mantra is used at a total of 560 base + 1.2 with a 20+20% missing hp heal.
This is combined with her team fight utility on her shield makes her a solid champion. SR just hasn't really caught on yet.
LilYonsan2 votesI think you're exactly right! I've continued playing her a bit tonight and I think that my biggest advantage has been the fact that all of the people I'm laning against have no idea how to play against her. She has such low cd's, such high base damage and low mana costs that I can basically spam spells over and over until you can dive and use your combo to kill them (the combo being shield, link/root and ult+q), though I struggle to wonder how she would do against champs like Ahri.
Nexus Crawler1 votesYou can also RW if you're low gaining a huge HP advantage and just force them our of lane as well.
Against high mobility champions she has a much harder time since they can blink out of W range without a ton of difficulty. In that case just farm for team fights or roam if you can. You catch top or bot out with a Q W RQ they're pretty much dead.
Another advantage is even if she isn't the most farmed she still has exceptional peel for her ADC so she's never a true liability to her team like say a under farmed assassin.
LilYonsan1 votesI actually found that I didn't have trouble with higher mobility champs. Keeping in mind that I'm really experimenting with her at the moment and changing my build almost every game, I recently played against an Ezreal mid lane and while his e made sure that I could hardly ever root him, I found that my next best strategy was to just poke his health down with my q's.
Idea that I might like some feedback on: Karma with Lich bane? Yay or nay?
Nexus Crawler1 votesThat's basically the way of it. It's all about poke at that point or baiting their dash. It's just much harder to lock them down for her significant burst on either a RW or RQ.
I personally don't like either since optimally you need to do something like Q AA W AA R AA Q AA. While this would increase her over all damage I don't feel that it's worth while in sacrificing her upfront damage. It can work, just not my preference.
LilYonsan1 votesYeah, I can totally see what you mean. And her aa damage is pitiful- even for a lot of mid laners. But at the same time, her kit's utility is great for many things, even teamfights later on once you get to know her a bit :)
Healyourownbum2 votesSo basicly like old Karma was very strong to OP in Dom, SR also very strong but harder to play. Got ya. Yet now she is a boring ass champion when before she was loads of fun. And she still is underplayed, and you guys think you did a good job lol. Clearly else they dissucion threads wouldnt of happend eh...
Naokazu1 votesAnd before getting eviscerated she was godmode on Treeline, she's still worthless on Rift and now moderately useful on Dominion, was this really a good trade off? Also, claiming that her mantra+Q does more damage than Nidalee's spear, while true. is pointless; you're saying that her ultimate plus Q deal more damage (on a longer cooldown) than another champion's spam attack, and that's IF they stay in for the delayed damage.
Cindikle1 votesWhile all of that is nice, she still lacks a lot to make her truly worth SR's attention. She excels in the smaller maps because she has all of that at a short range outside of her Q.
Her Mantra is very liner.
If you're going APC Q2 is your main ability, anything else is generally situational and a waste
If you're going tanky AP W2 is your main ability, anything else is generally situational and a waste
If you're going support(lol?) E2 is your main ability, anything else is generally a waste.
Now, if you're going APC Lux does just as well as Karma and at a much safer range.
If you're going tanky AP Ryze/Vlad works about the same. Although this is Karma's best roll(imo) and she does shine here.
If you're support... well you're silly and Lulu does everything you can.
I feel what Karma needs to be in the right spot is more Mantra options overall and a little more tools as a support.
-Give W a small %missing HP heal on an ally and a small base heal with that. Overall healing an ADC the same as Sona. Down side being it's a longer cooldown and doesn't self heal. Upside being it scales.
-Give W2 a CC reduction for it's duration on ally and remove all CC at the end. I don't feel this would be OP as most CC don't last 2 seconds.
-Give E2 a damage increase based on the missing health of the target when the target is a champion. 1% for every 1% missing for example. Bringing it up to a possible 1.2 scaling. It will still be less damage than Q2 but more reliable.
Now APC Karma can use Q or E for damage.
Now Tanky Karma can use W or E for survivability or damage.
Now Support Karma can sue W or E for supporting.
I'm not sure if this would really make her even more OP in Dominion as it's about using her Mantra for other uses. And possibly her W. As you guys are already working on champion numbers in Dominion, I assume you could just change what needs changed if it becomes a problem there.
TL;Dr Karma is very limited by the roll she plays to decide what she uses her Mantra on. As it makes other choices very week in comparison this makes is so other champions out class her. Tanky Karma is about the only roll she shines in and the one you've seen in the LCS.
Bumblebomb21 votesYour right. Just that her E is still working different to what RiotScarizard promised and stated in the forum. http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3543108&
Karmas E is still bugged or at least not working like promised.
I played Karma promo matches from Plat to Diamond and won. Shes definitely strong but her E needs a tweak/bugfix.
Spread the word!
ModCaptainMårvelous5 votesI think Karma is a tad underrated. With her mantra, her E at rank one provides a teamwide 60% MS buff. That is ENORMOUS and an incredible skill to have at levels 1-3. Her kit overall has less kill potential than other area denial/lockdown champions (Anivia, Syndra, etc) but you trade this for some very good sustained damage and a fair amount of surviability. A Karma building even a little health will be able to take an impressive amount of punishment as long as she uses her shield and mantra W.
Part of the reason I think she's underrated is because people are still trying to figure out her place. She has mid-lane potential but not as good flat-out killing power. She has support potential but not much in the way of hard CC. (Everything she does to you can still let her attack you). Hell, I've seen Karma jungle through the fact that she can quickly close the gap and easily lock down a target for damage.
Someone just needs to show her at her best and maybe then people will accept that she's extremely strong.
LilYonsan2 votesYeah, I have a feeling that you're exactly right. Personally I would put her mid above support atm, but really she has such large utility you can pretty much do anything with her.
Aimewow1 votesCompletely agree with the shield. I've played enough games as her to see how powerful a mantra'd shield can be in a team fight. A lot of people say "Just spam Mantra Q in a teamfight, that's all your good for." When really the AoE damage, shield and heal from the shield has, and I'm not exaggerating, won team fights for my team. Mantra shield at the start = initiation. 10 seconds into the fight if your good with AA and abilities, another shield. Good placement on bruiser or AD (hopefully both if they're close to each other), and you've come close to winning the fight.
Im QuibsY4 votesThe reason why karma doesn't see much play is because there are so many characters that do her job better. Want to zone someone? Ziggs Gragas and Anivia do that exceptionally, yet all of their kill potential is about 3px higher than Karma due to her Q not being too strong unless you ult with it. I just think she has too much going on, and I miss old karma :/
LilYonsan3 votesI unfortunately never got to learn the old karma. I felt that she was simply too high skillcap for me to learn well enough before the rework were to happen. That being said, I think the new karma is still pretty fun. Personally what she offers that champions like Ziggs, Gragas and Anivia don't really have is she has some amazing sustain. I've noticed that all of her spells really don't cost as much and you're in a better position to trade and spam q's towards them that hurt like hell and don't really cost you too much. Granted, I've only started with fearie charm start but so far so good :). Though I do really miss the old speed boost karma :c
Im QuibsY1 votesGragas sustain is pretty strong. I'm not trying to deter you from playing the character you like, just giving you my two cents. I dont think she'll ever make it as a pick in worlds, but that's not what everyone's trying to do. Glad you like the character, best of luck to you with her :D my recommendation is try morellonomicon early on her and max cdr asap. DFG is also great on her. Good luck summoner!
LilYonsan1 votesYeah, unfortunately I'm not very great with gragas, otherwise I might be more inclined to agree with you. Actually over the last couple of weeks I've begun to build morellonomicon (argh need an abbreviation for that :x) first for a lot of my mids! It's such a useful item. I've found that it's especially helpful in lanes that you are either losing or for champs that need the little bit of extra sustain :D
Im QuibsY1 votesStick to your guns man, people have made a name for themself using one character at a high caliber. Azingy using amumu, that one dude who plays Voli/Udyr, and westrice's akali. Amy character can be good.
Healyourownbum1 votesNo offensive but i think thats why alot of ppl thought she was so weak and she saw little gameplay cause of the highskill cap. Now she is extreemly dumbed down and to me thats both offensive and downright slap to the face. They keep going on about how they did a good job yet she doesnt feel or play anything like Karma did. And she was always extreemly strong in Dom so the red post just makes me belief even more they didnt know what she did as well lol.
But i guess im some what happy ppl got a champion they like atleast. Just wish i still had one i liked. Dont get me wrong loads i can play a match with and have a giggle but none make me want to play them more then once stick with them for a couple of matches.
RiotVesh4 votesI went from silver 5 to plat 1 playing almost exclusively karma in the last month... as support.
..but she's really weak shhhhhhh
LilYonsan1 votesSilver 5 to plat in 1 month 1 month QQQQQQQQQQ so jelly.
Just out of curiosity, how did you build her while you were playing support? Did you build any hybrid ap items like morellonomicon or something along those lines?
Bombkirby3 votesAs someone who went on a Karma binge for like 2 months straight... she's good in lane but she falls off super hard lategame. Q2 stops chunking people if they have any defensive items at all. And she usually gets interrupted when trying to heal in teamfights and her teamwide shield can be very situational since the shield part gets blown up in a second and the speedboost is where all the power is at, making it situational.
Dominion's usually more about dueling/skirmishes so you don't have the teamfight issues, so I've enjoyed her slightly more there.
Her problem is that she's solid on paper, but in practice something about...just doesn't work as well as it should be working.
ploki1222 votesJust semi high-jacking this thread since it's related to Karma, and I love Karma, but I found out I'm building karma completely "wrong" (read as different from most). Basically, I simply rush the chalice and then Spirit Visage/Sunfire Cape (based on matchup), and build super tanky with capped CDR. This allows me to have very decent AoE damage, shield on an ally of my choice, and 50% missing hp healed every so often (somewhere around 6-10s in teamfights).
I sometimes forgo Sunfire cape for an abyssal scepter if I'm mid, or precede that with philo/ss if I'm supporting, but otherwise, it seems to be a build where I can actually either grant massive utility to my team or split push and outduel nearly everyone...
Thoughts on why it'd be better/worse than a normal AP build (apart from the fact that people don't understand that even though karma has "no ult" she still can burst you down, and that yo ucan get free kills from those stupid people).
LilYonsan1 votesI'll have to keep your suggestion in mind, it sounds like I might try to use your build when I'm not doing so well in lane. When I am winning in lane, I tend to build aggressively in order to more advance the amount of kills and control the enemy laner more. If you're playing her top, a warmog's and/or spirit visage would be a surprisingly effective choice with her because her kit gives her basically the same actives as something like shurelya's. As far as mid, i generally don't get in range for something like abyssal scepter. I generally would use that item for someone that I need to be up close and personal with, someone like fizz/ahri/tf or something. Since I'm playing as karma, the only time that I'm going to be too close to my enemy will be when I'm getting the kill.
Something that I find incredibly strong about her is the fact that her shield gives her such a massive speed boost. It's great because starting at level three she can basically push lanes, and assuming you know from which direction the enemy jungler is coming out of (may or may not need wards), then you can speed boost your way to sefety and not have to worry about dying. Even if the enemy jungler does catch up to you, the enemy laner won't be able to catch up making it that much more likely that you'll survive.
Another fun way to build karma (at least this is how I did it when she first got reworked) is to build a lot of attack speed/cdr/ability power items such as nashors, malady, etc. It means that you can basically churn out ults incredibly quickly and become equivalent of poking to someone like nidalee throughout multiple pokes.
A thought that I'm having, which I'd like to run by some of the fine people on here: Should i build Lich Bane on Karma and give that a try?
ploki1221 votesAlthough not as viable, I do believe AS/CDR build could be fun, and would be the only time I'd ever buy lich bane. Basically, if you build AS/CDR, your R-E is probably the combo you'll want teh most, simply add a shitton of damage mitigation to your team, as well as mobility to prevent unfavorable fights, and dishout conistent damages.
If you're building pure AP, you're probably staying out of AA range because you're quite squishy (and also you're using all your spells in 1 go), and if you're buillding tanky, Triforce gives you more damage, on top of more utility.
LilYonsan1 votesYou know, I think triforce might be a good option on her if you're indeed going tanky, I'll have to give it a try next time I play her if I play her top or support :D Thank you for the idea!
nvmvoidrays1 votesi actually do something very, very similarly: whenever i play karma, i build her as an AP bruiser. chalice is always my first item, which, transitions into an RoA; i finished athenes off and get boots of choice (usually sorcs or mercs). after that, i'll get either zhonyas or SV, depending on what the bigger damage type is.
i absolutely love the AP bruiser karma build. she's one of the best duelists in the game and she has excellent peel for teammates.
my finished build will usually be something like: athenes, boots of choice, RoA, zhonyas, SV and my last item is either liandrys or another defensive item. i rarely get deathcap on her. sometimes, i'll replace athenes with a different AP item and get something like FH. i did toy with the idea of nashors, but, eh.
Ionian StarChild2 votesShe's good at providing constant utility (there's a reason why she's considered one of the greatest kite champs in the game currently), but as far as damage dealing, you're going to have to consider other available options before her. She still relies on positioning that unless you're fighting out in the open, most of your damage will be negated by factors such as minions or other enemy champs (yes I'm referring to her Q).
Jivira1 votesI put together my thoughts on this topic in the non-Beta forums. Warning, it is a long post :P
http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=47694612#post47694612