"Go kill yourself"

Sir ArmaMalum·Oct 15, 2014·10 votes·5,500 views

Note: This is not a rant, troll post or lecture, but a discussion on a (appropriately so) sensitive topic. For those of you that feel strongly on this subject (As I do), please temper your opinions the best you can so we may be able to facilitate an actual two-sided discussion.

Short and simple:

Should saying "go kill yourself" or "I am going to find you and kill you in your sleep" or some such be a reportable offense, regardless of the context or behavior of the speaker?

I will leave my own personal opinion in a comment below to prevent bias within the question. (found here for convenience)

73 Comments

SammanderOct 15, 20148 votes

Should saying "go kill yourself" or "I am going to find you and kill you in your sleep" or some such be a reportable offense, regardless of the context or behavior of the speaker?

These two statements are completely different...

Sir ArmaMalumOct 15, 20143 votes

Should saying "go kill yourself" or "I am going to find you and kill you in your sleep" or some such be a reportable offense, regardless of the context or behavior of the speaker?

These two statements are completely different...

--Sammander

I'll admit I'm generalizing when I'm bundling passive death threats like "Go kill yourself" and active death threats like "I will kill you" together.

Do you feel the difference affects your answer? And if so, why?

SammanderOct 15, 20142 votes

I'll admit I'm generalizing when I'm bundling passive death threats like "Go kill yourself" and active death threats like "I will kill you" together.

Do you feel the difference affects your answer? And if so, why?

I think that both should be bannable. But "Go kill yourself", to me, is no different than "go fuck yourself". "I will kill you" is much more serious / creepy / weird. I just do not like the generalization.

Sir ArmaMalumOct 15, 20142 votes

I just do not like the generalization.

--Sammander

Thank you. No seriously, THANK YOU. This specific generalization was by design, but I am so glad there are people out there that will recognize and call out generalizations in posts. Good on you.

But "Go kill yourself", to me, is no different than "go fuck yourself".

--Sammander

This is exactly what I wanted to have come up. I have plenty of friends that think the same way. There's even the "Kill yourself" meme (example) that's handed out semi-regularly across different area of the internet.

While I am personally very against this on many levels, I do also recognize that the intent of these phrases (in this context) is more of a joke or a less, for lack of a better word, "significant" insult. It's simply a different perspective on the subject that is very hard for me to truly understand because of my past life experiences.

Seeing as you see "Go fuck yourself" and "Go kill yourself" as relatively equal. Does this also mean that you consider the phrase "Go fuck yourself" bannable as well? Why or why not?

DaejinTyeOct 15, 20143 votes

I just do not like the generalization.

Thank you. No seriously, THANK YOU. This specific generalization was by design, but I am so glad there are people out there that will recognize and call out generalizations in posts. Good on you.

But "Go kill yourself", to me, is no different than "go fuck yourself".

This is exactly what I wanted to have come up. I have plenty of friends that think the same way. There's even the "Kill yourself" meme (example) that's handed out semi-regularly across different area of the internet.

While I am personally very against this on many levels, I do also recognize that the intent of these phrases (in this context) is more of a joke or a less, for lack of a better word, "significant" insult. It's simply a different perspective on the subject that is very hard for me to truly understand because of my past life experiences.

Seeing as you see "Go fuck yourself" and "Go kill yourself" as relatively equal. Does this also mean that you consider the phrase "Go fuck yourself" bannable as well? Why or why not?

See, you're already going so far out of your way to try and change the phrase and the meaning behind them that you've invalidated yourself entirely. Go fuck yourself is go fuck yourself... Go kill yourself is go kill yourself...

You have to remember that, everyone on here is a stranger... If friends are joking there won't be a report filed on them anyway. However, that is not the situation being described. You're trying to change the topic, subject and the situation to suit your views instead of being objective. This is stupidof you.

Anyone who thinks a phrase means another phrase doesn't actually have an opinion about the original phrase, as they aren't treating it as the original phrase. Also, people who think its fine to say between friends has no opinion because we're talking about between strangers. Only the most childish and idiotic people tell strangers to kill themselves. Period. There is no debate about this. Thus I will once again reinforce my argument... "The community is better off without those kinds of people."

Seriously at this point you've only proven that you can't stay on topic or formulate a coherent thought. If you don't want to debate or have a discussion about the topic, why bother at all?

Sir ArmaMalumOct 15, 20143 votes

See, you're already going so far out of your way to try and change the phrase and the meaning behind them that you've invalidated yourself entirely.

--DaejinTye

Hmmm, are you by chance using chronological view? I am currently using discussion view and responding to numerous different viewpoints and asking them questions on their views to better understand where they are coming from.

As I said in my first comment I am a firm believer in the Socratic Method, I have stated my personal viewpoint (which has not changed) already and am trying to comprehend differing views. As such, I am not trying to perpetuate my own view unto others. So I can understand why I may seem indecisive.

I admit it has been less than ideal practice on my end for not quoting every comment I'm responding to, but if you can humor me (if you're using chrono view) and switch to discussion view and see the actual context of my responses thus far I would be grateful.

Edit: Added Quote for Chrono clarity

DeadlyQuestionOct 15, 20142 votes

See, you're already going so far out of your way to try and change the phrase and the meaning behind them that you've invalidated yourself entirely. Go fuck yourself is go fuck yourself... Go kill yourself is go kill yourself...

Anyone who thinks a phrase means another phrase doesn't actually have an opinion about the original phrase, as they aren't treating it as the original phrase.

Well I disagree. That's like when people say "That's gay" as a negative thing. The 1800/early 1900s definition of gay was joyful and excited, late 1900s twisted it into a label, and then derogatory term concerning homosexuality. When someone says "That's gay," they're not saying "That's homosexual." They're saying "That's something I don't like". Neither are they ALWAYS saying "I hate homosexuality, I hate this, and I'm comparing the two as two things I hate." It's just how language evolves. People are taught (generally environmentally) how to express certain emotions with certain phrases, and they do.

Same thing when an Atheist exclaims "Oh my God" or "Thank God". They don't believe in God, but the context and feeling it conveys still stands.

Go fuck yourself and Go kill yourself can be used in the exact same context, to mean the same thing. The definition of the commands are different, sure, that's semantics, either phrase is generally used to say "I wish I didn't have to deal with you," albeit aggressively.

DaejinTyeOct 15, 20145 votes

Should saying "go kill yourself" or "I am going to find you and kill you in your sleep" or some such be a reportable offense, regardless of the context or behavior of the speaker?

These two statements are completely different...

True, however their end result is the same, "wishing death on someone." That kind of mindset is for the worst kind of people, the kind any community is better off without.

I can ignore and let pass all the racial slurs, homophobic name calling and occasional "hate speech" sentence here and there, but if you're going to be stupid enough to tell someone to commit suicide, you've lost any chance at respect you'll ever have. All shit like that does is serve to prove how immature and pathetic you can get over petty little things. There is no excuse for it.

SammanderOct 15, 20143 votes

Should saying "go kill yourself" or "I am going to find you and kill you in your sleep" or some such be a reportable offense, regardless of the context or behavior of the speaker?

These two statements are completely different...

True, however their end result is the same, "wishing death on someone." That kind of mindset is for the worst kind of people, the kind any community is better off without.

I can ignore and let pass all the racial slurs, homophobic name calling and occasional "hate speech" sentence here and there, but if you're going to be stupid enough to tell someone to commit suicide, you've lost any chance at respect you'll ever have. All shit like that does is serve to prove how immature and pathetic you can get over petty little things. There is no excuse for it.

Wishing death on someone is not the same as threatening to kill somone.

Sir ArmaMalumOct 15, 20146 votes

I am a firm believer in the Socratic method (forming and guiding discussion by asking the opposing side questions to stimulate critical thinking). As such, even though I am firmly against phrases like this no matter the context I will make the effort to understand the opposing viewpoint, if there is one.

For me specifically, I have had friends and family (though thankfully never myself) emotionally compromised and thus have had too many moment where a phrase like "go kill yourself", no matter how lightly used, would have actually resulted in a death. Luckily this never happened, but I have been right there in the thick of it; where words and how they are used hold more power over a person than most would care to admit. Where what you meant and your intent of your words mean jack all, only the results. My experience in life has given me a profound respect for communication towards other people, and while I cannot say I have been perfect, I do hold myself to a high standard when it comes to talking to someone else, in-game or out. As well as a profound respect for a life in general.

At the same time, I also hope my experience is not a common one. I hope that very few of you have had to deal with a loved one losing all hope or a friend being placed on suicide watch. I do not expect the average person to truly grasp my view without these experiences, and I do not wish these experiences on anyone.

(tl;dr) So this leaves me hoping you can trust me when I say that I think anyone who types a death threat or another such phrase like that in earnest, that I genuinely think you have given up the right to speak.

#If you do not appropriately grasp what words like that mean, but use them anyway...

you obviously need to put more effort into understanding the implications of what you say. **Like a child in time-out. **

#If you realize the gravity of what you are saying, but say it anyway...

you obviously do not care enough to be able to communicate with the fellow human beings that you hold in such little regard. You are using words as a weapon and have no respect for the safety of the people around you, you need to have that weapon removed from your possession. Like a dog with a muzzle.

This is my honest, but individual, opinion. I recognize that I feel strongly about this subject and as such hope that the intensity of my opinion is meant specifically to convey that, and not to shut down the opinions of others.

JubbinautOct 15, 20146 votes

If there's a context within which that those kinds of phrases are acceptable, it lies entirely within a pre-existing relationship. Friends who know each other's limits and boundaries can share jokes like this - as I've been known to do, myself.

But in my opinion, no other usage of death threats or suicide comments should ever be considered acceptable. Without prior awareness of whether or not a person has it in them to follow through on a threat like that (or how they genuinely feel about you), any kind of comment like that must be taken seriously, both by the target and any observers.

Sir ArmaMalumOct 15, 20141 votes

If there's a context within which that those kinds of phrases are acceptable, it lies entirely within a pre-existing relationship. Friends who know each other's limits and boundaries can share jokes like this - as I've been known to do, myself.

But in my opinion, no other usage of death threats or suicide comments should ever be considered acceptable. Without prior awareness of whether or not a person has it in them to follow through on a threat like that (or how they genuinely feel about you), any kind of comment like that must be taken seriously, both by the target and any observers.

--Jubbinaut

Excuse me while I take a moment to applaud your statement. I may quote you later, very well said.

Now, for the sake of discussion, how (in your opinion) does your statement expand into an online community? If a phrase like this is said friend-to-friend but across team chat, for a specific League example, should it still be a bannable offense? Why?

Edit: added quote for Chrono clarity

JubbinautOct 15, 20141 votes

Now, for the sake of discussion, how (in your opinion) does your statement expand into an online community? If a phrase like this is said friend-to-friend but across team chat, for a specific League example, should it still be a bannable offense? Why?

I think that would strongly depend on the outside observer. If all of the people outside of the two in question (speaker and target) are part of the same friend-group, I feel that places it safely in the "let it slide" category. Those players can reasonable be assumed to have at least some awareness of each other's limits. If, however, they aren't, we see a situation where inappropriate jokes and commentary are being inflicted on outsiders who don't know that they're only jokes, and so must take them as serious statements.

So it comes down to being aware of surroundings. My friends and I make terrible jokes at each other, when there's no one else around. In public, we tone that back, because while we may recognize the playful nature of my fiancee's threats of castration, we are very well aware that other people won't.

This was actually mirrored in the old Tribunal, where it would scrub group chat from 5-man premade teams. I always thought that was a particularly cool feature, because of this.

Pandemic PunchOct 15, 20144 votes

Look at it this way. If someone said this to you in real life, how would you respond? Would you say thank you and continue what you were doing? If you have a pair, you would probably smack them around for a little while.

Sir ArmaMalumOct 15, 20143 votes

Look at it this way. If someone said this to you in real life, how would you respond? Would you say thank you and continue what you were doing? If you have a pair, you would probably smack them around for a little while.

-- Lil Froobz

I will agree with you on this, but unfortunately reactions in reality and reactions within cyberspace differ greatly.

IRL, you have the option to "smack them around for a little while* but at the same time, this phrase may have been said by someone much larger and more fit than you.

Over League and the rest of the internet, words are the closest to exchanging blows you can get (legally, preferably we won't get into the option of hacking). And this is why, from my understanding, phrases like this have become acceptable to a large number of peopl. Lack of repercussions. (anonymity also contributes to this)

Edit: Added quote for Chrono Clarity

Pandemic PunchOct 16, 20141 votes

As far as someone being larger and more fit than me, I don't really care. I wouldn't let anyone get away with constant harassment without any response whatsoever. No one should ever stand down from such a bully.

I agree and am aware of the reasons why such phrases have become acceptable to a lot of people. I just don't agree with it. I feel like it is easier to not say such things than it is to actually deal with being told those things.

imonly4noobcakesOct 15, 20143 votes

Common sense says this is toxic behaviour.

Sir ArmaMalumOct 15, 20142 votes

Common sense says this is toxic behaviour.

--Imonly4noobcakes

I agree, and I think even people who say this will also agree.

The main question I'm considering, however, is if these phrases should be punished by themselves.

For example, if a relatively good player who's been supportive and overall positive says "Go kill yourself" within the context of a joke, should he/she still be punished for saying the phrase?

ZanryuOct 15, 20142 votes

In fact, even the slightest attempt of murder threat is punishable. In most countries, in this example Germany, the murder threat can result in an prison sentence for up to one year. Surely, the judge have to make sure that the threat is real and the victim is truly frightened by this threat. But in most cases this results in an injunction and monetary penalty.

Either way this is always to be taken serious.

JivvieOct 15, 20142 votes

Damn, over 90% of us agree...... good.

slippykittenOct 15, 20142 votes

What makes a phrase particularly harmful? It is the intent behind the words and the emotional state of the hearer.

For example - if you call me a dumb nigger, meaning to offend me based on my race, im not going to care because that phrase is of no particular meaning to me being white. On the other end - if you call me a dumb nigger, intending it as a joke, im not going to care because jokes are just jokes.

So for the average person, saying "kill yourself" shouldnt be of any particular meaning. A joke should be a joke without the world blowing its cork and those who are struggling with thoughts of suicide should not be immersing their minds in a community of childish people with the mindset that everything said to them is serious business.

My point is that no words should be particularly harmful in the context of a video game, and if they are, you need to find balance in your emotional state.

Am i saying those are good things to say? of course not, but there isnt any reason to think they are cataclysmic phrases with special power to hurt others. Sometimes people need to just grow up a little (on both sides)

WheatloafOct 15, 20142 votes

Some people can't take real life seriously, and others can't not take games seriously. We shouldn't make the assumption that some random person we tell to "kill themselves" won't take the advice seriously in some form or other. When you don't have the information to know, always assume the worst rather than the best.

JubbinautOct 15, 20142 votes

When you don't have the information to know, always assume the worst rather than the best.

So much this.

EawafOct 15, 20142 votes

Death threats over League of legends. A video game? This seems to be a gross overreaction to an issue that does not seem to separate itself from other forms of toxicity. Kill yourself, die in a fire, these are not special insults, they aren't special words that have power. The only power other people have over you in this game is the power you give them.

I voted no because i don't see a reason to separate these 'insults' from other forms of insults experienced in the game. And please stop with the tolerance and understanding of folks that use these insults. In the heat of anger and frustration people will say just about anything to convey even a modicum of their feelings during said moment to the person causing such  anger. Am i excusing their behavior? no. It's all toxicity and should all be treated the same.

Sticks and stones break bones, words never hurt me. Mute report and move on. If what someone says to you over a video game causes you to contemplate suicide, i think your issue extends FAR beyond the scope or context of this game. And it is my belief that this game does NOT have the responsibility to be your psychologist as well as your entertainer.

Sir ArmaMalumOct 15, 20141 votes

Death threats over League of legends. A video game? This seems to be a gross overreaction to an issue that does not seem to separate itself from other forms of toxicity. Kill yourself, die in a fire, these are not special insults, they aren't special words that have power. The only power other people have over you in this game is the power you give them.

I voted no because I don't see a reason to separate... [snip]

--Eawaf

Completely valid argument, this is why I asked the question, to understand views that I personally find hard to see based on my prior experiences. Thank you.

For discussion sake, let's not focus on extremes like suicide, but on general emotional damage. I completely agree that the damage caused is completely dependent on the recipient, there are people that simply wouldn't give a crap and others that would be legitimately hurt.

So let's talk societal repercussions. In other words, turn up the scale from the individual impact and look at the effect on the entire playerbase. Personally I'd argue that a laissez faire attitude like that slowly degrades the overall community due to lack of repercussions towards this specific behavior. Muting helps the recipient, sure, but the giver can just keep going unabated.

Thoughts?

ShadowNinetailsOct 16, 20142 votes

I'm going to go ahead and say no not because I think it's acceptable conduct from one random to another, but because if we start banning people for threats without considering context, me and several of my friends would most certainly be permabanned right now because with more than one of them there's a running gag of "You'd better not feed. Remember I know where you live." or some such faux threat. Things I'd never say to someone I wasn't friends with and if said in the presence of randoms we usually remember to tell them that we're friends so they don't get the wrong idea, but there's very very few instances where considering actus reus without considering mens rea is appropriate as evidenced by how few criminal laws there are (at least in the US) that don't require a concurrence of the two.

TenSlashTenOct 15, 20141 votes

Read a book, is my reply to this thread. Low brow insults are disgusting and pathetic to me.

Feel ashamed, please.

Sir ArmaMalumOct 15, 20141 votes

Read a book, is my reply to this thread. Low brow insults are disgusting and pathetic to me.

Feel ashamed, please.

--TenSlashTen

Question: Did you read my comment on the matter?

Edit: Added quote for Chrono Clarity

TenSlashTenOct 15, 20141 votes

The comment is replying to the fact that people still use pathetic low brow insults like this.

Shows how shit the average education system is that kids these days use such disgusting insults.

Might as well just not even talk at all for fear of showing the world your stupidity all at once.

I'd smack the taste out of my child mouth if I ever saw them talking/writing this way to anyone. But that's just me.

I'm no saint. But I have lines I never cross and talking about someone elses life like it was meaningless to you is a line I've never crossed once let alone thought about.

Children these days disgust me. Glad I was raised in the very beginning of the 90's and got through school before the internet was super mainstream because now a days "meme's" and verbal insults like this are as common as breathing.

Absolutely disgusting.

Sir ArmaMalumOct 15, 20141 votes

Ah okay, my apologies, misinterpreted your conversational target.

Hoi Im TemmoOct 15, 20141 votes

regardless of the context or behavior of the speaker

This phrase makes an answer tricky. If said with any level of seriousness, the answer is an intimidate yes. If said, as suggested later in the thread, is used jokingly, perhaps a simple warning, defining exactly what you said and why you should not, would be more appropriate.

Having to pick yes or no, however, I would normally lean towards yes.

DaejinTyeOct 15, 20142 votes

regardless of the context or behavior of the speaker

This phrase makes an answer tricky.

I will agree with this. However, the general rule of MMO's and the internet in general is: Everyone is a stranger to everyone else. So, unless the person purposing the question specifically states "between friends" I assume it to be "one stranger telling another to kill themselves." In which case, it is always wrong. There are no real conversations that can go down a road that would make that a relevant phrase when used jokingly with someone you've only been talking to for 5 minutes.

The situations I can think of are things like, "What music do you like?" "I love Justin Beiber." "Eww, go kill yourself."

We can all agree that is probably a joke about killing yourself, however there are plenty of other things you can say to show your distaste in their music without immediately jumping to the most extreme thing you can think of.

Also, it's not the phrase I have a problem with, it's the mindset of the people who say things like this. I've interacted on deeper levels with over a million people via the internet in my short time on it thus far and I've never met anyone who says things like that who also has a lot of value to them as a member of a community. The reason being, the type of person to willingly state things like this are the type of people who simply don't care about others in general and don't care to be aware of what they are saying.

So, it's a combination of natural understanding and the experience I have with people that leads me to my conclusion.

Hoi Im TemmoOct 15, 20141 votes

Exactly: that's why I stated i would almost always choose yes in answer to the original question - my point however, is that, speaking realistically, there WILL be situations where it is said jokingly/obviously not serious/some similar manner that deviates from the norm - and I am simply pointing out that as the question asked for an absolute yes or no, it is difficult to answer in the way that is generally correct.

slippykittenOct 15, 20141 votes

I would also like to add (mostly for the devils advocate's sake) that real life does actually contain phrases exactly like this, and are often used in text form. It is a literary device called hyperbole, or an extreme, unrealistic exaggeration for the sake of making your point more dramatic. We use these phrases all the time "the traffic today was literally the worst thing ive ever seen" - obviously not true, exaggerated for effect. "You ate my poptart!? i hate you so much!" - expressing displeasure by being extreme.

"go kill yourself" is obviously used as hyperbole, giving you the most extreme form of self disappointment.

So saying the internet is the only place this happens is silly, it does happen in every day life all the time. So what is the difference? is the one speaking these things in a different mindset and meaning them seriously? is the atmosphere so serious that someone should take it as such? or is the hearer overreacting because they are mad themselves? thats the hard question to answer.

Sir ArmaMalumOct 15, 20142 votes

I would also like to add (mostly for the devils advocate's sake) that real life does actually contain phrases exactly like this, and are often used in text form. It is a literary device called hyperbole, or an extreme, unrealistic exaggeration for the sake of making your point more dramatic. We use these phrases all the time "the traffic today was literally the worst thing ive ever seen" - obviously not true, exaggerated for effect. "You ate my poptart!? i hate you so much!" - expressing displeasure by being extreme.

"go kill yourself" is obviously used as hyperbole, giving you the most extreme form of self disappointment.

So saying the internet is the only place this happens is silly, it does happen in every day life all the time. So what is the difference? is the one speaking these things in a different mindset and meaning them seriously? is the atmosphere so serious that someone should take it as such? or is the hearer overreacting because they are mad themselves? thats the hard question to answer.

--slippykitten

I agree with you that it's used IRL a lot and that a hyperbolized use in that regard is easily seen as a joke.

However, from my understanding, it isn't because the internet "is a more serious place" that phrases like this are much worse, it's because we are missing the vocal and visual ques that we have IRL. It's much harder to discern the intent behind the words online than it is IRL.

slippykittenOct 15, 20141 votes

I would also like to add (mostly for the devils advocate's sake) that real life does actually contain phrases exactly like this, and are often used in text form. It is a literary device called hyperbole, or an extreme, unrealistic exaggeration for the sake of making your point more dramatic. We use these phrases all the time "the traffic today was literally the worst thing ive ever seen" - obviously not true, exaggerated for effect. "You ate my poptart!? i hate you so much!" - expressing displeasure by being extreme.

"go kill yourself" is obviously used as hyperbole, giving you the most extreme form of self disappointment.

So saying the internet is the only place this happens is silly, it does happen in every day life all the time. So what is the difference? is the one speaking these things in a different mindset and meaning them seriously? is the atmosphere so serious that someone should take it as such? or is the hearer overreacting because they are mad themselves? thats the hard question to answer.

--slippykitten

I agree with you that it's used IRL a lot and that a hyperbolized use in that regard is easily seen as a joke.

However, from my understanding, it isn't because the internet "is a more serious place" that phrases like this are much worse, it's because we are missing the vocal and visual ques that we have IRL. It's much harder to discern the intent behind the words online than it is IRL.

once again, just for the devils advocate's sake (i dont really think its cool to tell people to kill themselves), shouldnt a video game be a less serious place? shouldnt even more be taken jokingly in a video game than irl? I feel that something is backwards if people place more weight and severity on words said in a video game than they would for words said to them by a coworker.

CupcakeTrapOct 15, 20142 votes

I agree with you that it's used IRL a lot and that a hyperbolized use in that regard is easily seen as a joke.

However, from my understanding, it isn't because the internet "is a more serious place" that phrases like this are much worse, it's because we are missing the vocal and visual ques that we have IRL. It's much harder to discern the intent behind the words online than it is IRL.

I think it's a matter of taboo. Sometimes, you carve an extra-broad space around a particularly virulent behavior or expression. In so doing, you accept that some "gray area" will also be captured. If the target is sufficiently nasty, it's worth this price.

For example, there are probably inoffensive ways in which I could use the n-word. As a matter of policy, though, I avoid it entirely, because I'd rather be on the safe side.

I feel similarly about the figurative use of the word "rape". There are better words. I think it should just be avoided altogether.

"But wait, why is 'I raped bot' bad, but 'i slaughtered bot' okay? Isn't murder at least as bad as rape?"

I wrestled with this one for a while. In the end, I think my answer is: people don't often mock or shame murder victims, and murder doesn't often involve either murky issues of consent or insidious gender norms. Rape does, and being so thoroughly connected with such norms and attitudes it's much more dangerous to invoke, and I think that using the word "rape" jokingly is, for this reason, especially dangerous. It's the same reason why a game about running around killing people (in an abstract and sanitized way) is not nearly so harmful as would be a game based around rape.

I think suicide is more like rape than murder in this sense. Suicide can be the result of a slow erosion of a person's sense of self-worth and dignity. Jeers like "go kill yourself" can blur into a larger field of social contempt and ostracization, and this can actually play a significant role in pushing someone to take their own life. Telling someone who plays poorly to go kill themselves reinforces the notion that people who fail or are "useless" ought to commit suicide.

I don't think it's appropriate to trash-talk another player, but if it comes down to it, I'd much rather see "u suck" than "go kill yourself".

JkormsOct 15, 20141 votes

I agree with you that it's used IRL a lot and that a hyperbolized use in that regard is easily seen as a joke.

"But wait, why is 'I raped bot' bad, but 'i slaughtered bot' okay? Isn't murder at least as bad as rape?"

Firstly, actual rape and "rape culture" are totally separate issues. The point of stating your lane raped the other is defining raped as stripping the opponent of dignity and usefulness by beating them down and removing their will to fight back. You've completely ruined their experience because they did so poorly in lane. It's contextual. It has no real meaning. Of course there are other less controversial words and phrases to use, but the context isn't about the target player specifically.

Chatting "LOL bot lane raped you guys" is easily dismissed as banter. However, chatting "piece of shit botlane imma rape ur mum and sister" is undeniably made to harass the player and is unquestionably toxic behaviour that has every right to be banned.

It's all about the context of the language.

A ban filter for words and phrases has to be so specific that the phrase used would have no question of context for appeal. For example, "get raped", while offensive no doubt can be interpreted multiple ways and is open to judgement from tribunal. Whereas, "go kill yourself" has no questionable context. How else can you justify typing that phrase into chat? A specific list of unquestionable words and phrases should lead to instant chat bans or more.

CupcakeTrapOct 15, 20142 votes

"go kill yourself" can be interpreted as "you are worthless at this game" by analogizing to the concept of someone committing suicide because they believe they have no value or worth.

"you got raped" can be interpreted as "you were humiliated and dominated" by analogizing to the concept of a rape victim being degraded through forced sex.

I think those two concepts are sufficiently nasty, and sufficiently intertwined with murky cultural notions (e.g. "people who are just a drain on society should kill themselves", "rape is an enjoyable act of strength and dominance over another"), that it's better to just steer clear of them in a video game context. There's simply no need.

JkormsOct 15, 20142 votes

"go kill yourself" can be interpreted as "you are worthless at this game" by analogizing to the concept of someone committing suicide because they believe they have no value or worth.

"you got raped" can be interpreted as "you were humiliated and dominated" by analogizing to the concept of a rape victim being degraded through forced sex.

I think those two concepts are sufficiently nasty, and sufficiently intertwined with murky cultural notions (e.g. "people who are just a drain on society should kill themselves", "rape is an enjoyable act of strength and dominance over another"), that it's better to just steer clear of them in a video game context. There's simply no need.

I fully agree.

While it would take some time for an individual to change their preferred vocabulary, we have to start somewhere. Nasty, offensive, toxic language should have no place in the game at all. There really isn't a perfect system for online chat aside from removing the whole thing. Riot can only change how the chat works, not so much what is typed into it.

From my experience, I have turned off all chat for a while now and regardless of my improvement skill-wise, my entire game experience is vastly better. I am now advocating to people in game with me that nothing said in all chat has any benefit to you winning your game. All chat should be a privilege, along with using game chat. It's actually really easy to be nice regardless of winning or losing. I've made the change a while back. How can Riot advocate "being nice" to the larger community? Their honor and rewards systems are so far ineffective large scale.

UnderskyOct 15, 20141 votes

This is thought control and thought policing... there is a button to mute people you don't want to hear...

JubbinautOct 15, 20141 votes

It's not about what is thought. It's about what is said.

And a mute button is no excuse for that kind of commentary.

pro4neverOct 15, 20141 votes

Filed under "Duhh"

Threatening, insulting or verbally abusing people is never acceptable regardless of the circumstances. I don't care if top is 0/20, telling them to die/get cancer/etc just makes you part of the problem. Of course you are welcome to be frustrated with them but all you're doing is dragging the game experience down even further by airing your frustrations in chat.

nerak23Oct 15, 20141 votes

Personally I'd argue that a laissez faire attitude like that slowly degrades the overall community due to lack of repercussions towards this specific behavior.

Okay, here let me try it this way, There are lines that don't need to be walked up to let alone crossed.

If someone say "Lee no skin-- kill yourself" ( I am picking the least offensive form for example ) Okay one can argue there is nothing wrong with it. But what if what happens the next time is " blah blah your bad Go Kill yourself". The said person gets told that this statement is not 'nice' and replies ..J/k so and so said it so can I.

So the whole "go and die" stuff gets to the point where the line is blurry. I am trying to keep this simple. In the end, IMO just Don't allow any of this kind of talk..

As I said earlier, I think enough reasons have been given why it should be punished so I won't go back over details.

Kat HeadOct 16, 20141 votes

Yes, they should be insta perma ban.

NerdomundoOct 16, 20141 votes

Here's my two cents:

Only siths deal in absolutes. All cases should be based fairly by a 3rd party.

If the outcome (to them) looks malicious, then yes, a ban should be given out.

If a few friends are having a chill game, joking, and obviously having a good time - regardless of the K/D/A - and have, let's say, one person not in their premade, who is doing pretty bad.

The premade isn't abusive, they're obviously kidding around, with no malicious intent, and are not harassing the guy... but nonchalantly say 'kill yourself' when a mistake is made (say he's playing support and get's nailed by a draven).

Guy's having a bad day though, and doesn't take it lightly.

Ends up reporting the guy for harassment off that one comment.

That's in the wrong. You can't expect the Tribunal to understand or reasonably accommodate your bad mood or possible mental issues.

The Tribunal is, as the Tribunal does. Democracy is a powerful force, but no one will ever agree 100% with it. But like all systems, you must learn to cope and adapt to it.

KinjishiOct 16, 20141 votes

"Note: This is not a rant, troll post or lecture, but a discussion on a (appropriately so) sensitive topic. For those of you that feel strongly on this subject (As I do)," S.A.M.

If you feel strongly about this sensitive issue, then perhaps a better thread topic is called for?

DaenOct 16, 20141 votes

There are actually valid situations where "go kill yourself" could fit. Let's say we're in an ARAM and our ADC hasn't died yet and we will lose if they don't die to buy items. "Please go kill yourself" actually fits the context.

For this reason, I voted no. The general idea of death threats being punishable has merit (and I think it's already punished), but specifically reporting certain phrases regardless of context is risky.