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Let's talk about surrendering and the most common attitude people defend zealously.

Vistha Kai··10 votes·1,609 views

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--QvBoPlzz--/uykz8okybrumn7vxgkpj.jpg

Your team consists of Talon, Garen, Xin, Nidalee and Ezreal. Enemy team consists of Riven, Vladimir, Diana, Thresh and Jinx.

At 20 minute mark your team is left with only base towers, with score 15 to 38 and you need at least 3 people to kill Vlad or Riven who walk alone into your jungle.

Surrender vote goes down. 3:2 When prompted "Why did you refuse to surrender?", Talon responds with "Because I like playing." From that point you start discussing it with him. Majority of said discussion was held in post game chat.

It went somewhat like this: Talon - I like playing. Garen - Then why won't you play normals? Talon - Because I like ranked. Garen - Normal draft is the exact same thing. Talon - I play ranked to have fun. Garen - If you play only to have fun, then why do you play ranked? Talon - [no response] Garen -** There is a difference between "playing for fun" and "having fun while playing". **You make the rest of your team suffer in an unwinnable game. That's hardly funny for us. Talon - If you don't like it, then don't play. Garen - I don't hate the game, I hate the player who wastes my time while I play this game. Talon - This is a game not your life. Garen - Actually I played 20 minutes of an unpleasant match too long. For the past 40 minutes this game was my life. Talon - Lol gitalife nob. [Then he quit]

TL;DR "I play ranked for fun and I don't care about your opinion." is breaking rule 4 of the Summoner's Code.

61 Comments

Mandang04 votes

The 'never surrender' attitude is what annoys me most because it doesn't consider the condition of the game one bit. I get it if you usually dislike surrendering, but there's a time and place for everything, and in a game where snowballing tilts the playing field, that time and place is more common than these players think.

And, no, voting to surrender when my team's down is in no way the same thing as not playing the game to win. Professional sports/esports that have snowballing usually have surrenders - like chess, boxing, starcraft, and league's no different.

Kinjishi1 votes

Agreed 100%

FHMarshy3 votes

lmao I agree with your point that people waste other's time in an unwinnable game. but it's NOT AGAINST the code to have fun.

It's annoying to the people who want to surrender. I surrender often too early, but it's technically not WRONG for people who wants to finish the game.

You will get down voted for trying to use the "Term of agreement" into justifying your own frustration and condemning other people, not for what you are trying to say.

Dick

Vistha Kai2 votes

Enjoy Yourself, but not at Anyone Else's Expense

When asked the team, if they enjoyed playing past 20 minute mark, 2 of them answered "No", fourth one didn't care and insta-quit post game screen. As a result that one guy who didn't want to surrender, was having fun at the expense of his team.

FHMarshy2 votes

That code is put in place against trolls/ragers/quitters not for people who just refuse to quit.

When asked the team, if they had fun playing past 20 minute mark, 3 of them answered "No", fourth one didn't care and insta-quit post game screen.

If you have 3 others that agreed with you, you could have surrendered. It must mean that at least two of the 5 players didn't vote yes.

Vistha Kai1 votes

I phrased that one badly. I was one of those 3. So that makes it "2 of them". That there was another person who didn't want to surrender, is true. My point is Talon of that match was actually trolling his team. He didn't want to surr because he was having fun. I assume he was having fun watching us lose horribly. This or the fact he was going 1v3 aganist them for the reminder of the game.

FHMarshy1 votes

I've actually known people, who i stopped duoing with, who just refuse to surrender in ranked for the probability that they might have a turn over.

I bet the talon was toxic enough to make you feel this way, but I really don't think you "having fun watching team lose" apply to the majority of those tryhards.

Kazaashi1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=ZvzhAATo,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-28T15:06:44.371+0000)

I phrased that one badly. I was one of those 3. So that makes it "2 of them". That there was another person who didn't want to surrender, is true. My point is Talon of that match was actually trolling his team. He didn't want to surr because he was having fun. I assume he was having fun watching us lose horribly. This or the fact he was going 1v3 aganist them for the reminder of the game.

Just because other people have fun differently than you doesn't make them a troll. Just because other people have a different perception on a given match, doesn't make them a troll.

If I was one of your teammates, I would consider you trolling, because you should never surrender a Ranked game. I cannot count the times the other team has trown a late game teamfight and my team has been able to push for a win. That never happens if I give up though and happened a lot less before I practiced at comming back from a lost laning phase.

In my opinion, it is much better to try and pull the game I am currently in together for a win, than try my luck in a new game with 4 other random people who are quite likely to pull the same bullshit put me back in the same situation as my current game.

Vistha Kai1 votes

Looking from the perspective of that match:

  1. My team had no bot lane.
  2. My team had no jungler.
  3. My team had full tank top lane.
  4. My team had full AD Talon. Who was being a dick for his team anyway.

You can't possibly win with 2 people in 5v5 game, especially if one of them is a tank.

How being realistic and judging options we had, makes me a troll?

Kazaashi1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=ZvzhAATo,comment-id=000100000000000000010000,timestamp=2015-04-28T15:38:25.034+0000)

Looking from the perspective of that match:

  1. My team had no bot lane.
  2. My team had no jungler.
  3. My team had full tank top lane.
  4. My team had full AD Talon. Who was being a dick for his team anyway.

You can't possibly win with 2 people in 5v5 game, especially if one of them is a tank.

How being realistic and judging options we had, makes me a troll?

Because you focued on one person out of 2 on a failed surrender vote. Because you made the judgement that they are a troll because they had a different perspective than yours. Because you feel entitled to be correct.

I, in actuality, don't think either of you were trolling. You both just had differing opinions and clashed in the heat of the moment. I was really trying to illustrate how different perspectives can have very different perceptions of a situations and you shouldn't judge people because of it.

S H A Y C 01 votes

if you read the rest of that portion of the summoners code it has nothing to do with agreeing to surrender, and causing people to not enjoy the game.

Remember, taking a jab at your friend in the middle of the game is a lot different than making a glib remark at a complete stranger.

this is the spirit of this addendum in the summoners code, which you have taken out of context. It has to do with how you communicate with people and nothing to do with agreeing/disagreeing with a surrender vote simply because you have given up and dont see a way to win...your team obviously were at odds on this topic and voted to continue the game.

Sinister Anubis2 votes

This is not even true but it could go both ways. While another is having fun playing and you want to surrender is taking away his fun. Also it does not matter what the game is like and what you are feeling. I have been in 3v5 before and have won the game. It does not matter what you think during game only the out come you still could of won had you not had a crap attitude and wanting to surrender.

Sirsir2 votes

Don't surrender ranked. In normals it just might not be worth the time, but don't ff in ranked games. Anything can happen. Only time you surrender is when your opponents clearly just won't win the game.

Vistha Kai1 votes

Did you just say I should surrender when enemies can't win?

That's even worse than Talon's logic, dude.

redniwediS2 votes

He said won't, not can't. Like when they have pushed to your nexus for the third time but just dance outside your fountain instead of finishing.

DrCyanide2 votes

Your Summoners Code logic is flawed, in that you trying to enjoy yourself by moving on to another game comes at the expense of the players who want to keep playing the one you are in. Stop breaking the Summoners Code by surrendering!

ZergReap2 votes

Logically if surrendering or not surrendering was against the summoners code, would they give you a choice of yes/no?

Vistha Kai1 votes

I said that a few times already.

There is a difference between not surrendering, because there is a chance you might win and not surrendering because you are having fun, while the rest of the team doesn't.

Surrender should be a tactical option, not a way to show the world your attitude.

ZergReap1 votes

Yeah obviously Talon was a troll. Trolls are part of league. But let's say the Talon was just an average try hard who never surrenders any game. I think he wouldn't be obligated to surrender because his team wasn't having fun. Your game wasn't a issue with surrendering just someone ruining the game for his team.

Bônes2 votes

You realize how hypocritical your post is? You're criticizing Talon for not surrendering because that is having fun at your expense. But at the same time, you want to end the game early so that you can have fun in a new game at his expense(his expense because it would be taking away his enjoyment of continuing the game). If he wants to continue the game, that is his right. That's what the surrender vote is for.

Rule 4 does not mean what you are trying to make it mean. If we literally can't have fun at other people's expense, then we shouldn't have any winners in the game because you're winning at the losers expense. It should be against the rule to play Blitzcrank because I rage so hard when the piece of shit pulls me through a wall 3 times in a game. Sure, it's fun as hell for the Blitzcrank, but think of the victim.

I think you fully understand what the rule was created for. You mention it in the first paragraph. You're just trying to twist the meaning for your own purpose.

Vistha Kai1 votes

You are trying to twist my words for your own purpose.

3 people want to surrender, 1 doesn't want to and 1 doesn't care. 60% of the team doesn't have fun, 20% does, 20% gave an invalid vote. In any sane democracy the voting would be over when one of options gets just as much as 50.00001%.

What I mean is that, it's not only about me and the guy who refuses to surrender, but about that one guy and the majority of his team.

Bônes1 votes

Lmao. How did I twist your words?

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=ZvzhAATo,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-04-28T14:56:23.561+0000)

When asked the team, if they enjoyed playing past 20 minute mark, 2 of them answered "No", fourth one didn't care and insta-quit post game screen. As a result that one guy who didn't want to surrender, was having fun at the expense of his team.

The fourth guy said he didn't care, right? But then he said he didn't care in response to your question, which means that he didn't mind playing the game past the 20 min mark. You did not ask, "Who actually wanted to play past the 20 min mark?" Your question was who enjoyed playing after the 20 min mark. Therefore, that does not make his vote invalid. He voted no so that means he wanted to continue the game. So it's not about "that one guy", it was two guys.

We're not talking about government politics. This is a game. There are plenty of good reasons why Riot requires 4 out of 5 people to vote yes to a surrender. I'm glad League has that requirement. I've won so many games with 3 people trying to surrender.

Vistha Kai1 votes

He didn't care, because he didn't speak the whole match and insta-quit the post game screen.

Bônes1 votes

Lol. Wow. I had a feeling that could have been what you meant but I was like "Nah. This guy couldn't be that ridiculous." You proved me wrong.

So you say that makes his vote invalid? No, it doesn't. He could have been chat restricted. He probably just didn't want to deal with your bullshit and had you muted or just ignored you. Or he just doesn't like talking. Either way, that doesn't mean he doesn't care or make his vote invalid.

Vistha Kai1 votes

Chat restriction isn't a chat ban. You can still use the chat. Plus, if you don't use the chat, you will get restricted again, because you didn't improve your behavior - or so the system thinks.

Listen, I honestly had nothing to that other guy who declined the vote. I guess I should've read OP one more time before posting, so people wouldn't have any misconceptions about my reasons.

Gotta note that somewhere.

Eleshakai2 votes

Okay here's my argument:

I play to get better AND to have fun. I find that I improve more and learn more from games where we are behind, so I continue playing in games that are hard to win.

So thus surrendering is both inefficient to my improving as a player AND less fun. If you can't have fun in a losing game... I honestly and genuinely feel you are playing the wrong game because matchmaking is designed such that you SHOULD lose approximately half of your games. If you can't enjoy those games, you're effectively 'wasting' half of your time spent playing this game since you won't have fun.

Eleshakai2 votes

Although, I don't really need a complicated argument... all I really need to say is this:

If simply forcing you to play the game is 'at your expense', then you don't enjoy the game. Find another game, because LoL is wrong for you.

Vistha Kai1 votes

I did enjoy it. Until the moment the guy told me why he refused to surrender. Then I wished I could slap him through the internet and format his PC.

Eleshakai3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=ZvzhAATo,comment-id=00100000,timestamp=2015-04-28T23:25:30.203+0000)

I did enjoy it. Until the moment the guy told me why he refused to surrender. Then I wished I could slap him through the internet and format his PC.

if that's all it takes, you're not really enjoying yourself lol

Vistha Kai1 votes

I was busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

EL HAMSTERO2 votes

trying to convince your team to surrender is the absolute best way to get reported multiple times. some people just will not do it and it enrages them if you try to talk to them about it.

ive been in games with 2 afks and the enemy team winning like 30 to 5 but my teammates wont surrender. I believe they think its some kind of honor thing. never give up no matter what. I would admire that attitude in any real life circumstances, but this is a video game. and you are wasting my time.

Aerothal2 votes

The reason i don't surrender most of the time is because 90% of spoiled brats who don't see immediate results think a game is lost after the team lost a teamfight, even when the team is ahead in farm or turrets or objectives. People give up way too easy. Players think that being behind in KDA matters. Players often fail to assess the overall situation of a game and start a surrender vote as a knee jerk reaction to one lost skirmish in the game. Players too often tunnel on themselves and don't look at how the rest of the team is doing.

I cant count how many games i won where someone tried to surrender, i voted no and explained that a) the game is not lost (we are only 5 kills behind and either even or ahead in objectives) b) we have a good chance of coming back or we are actually ahead c) only one player on their team is fed and he is so fed that it actually hurts their team

Vistha Kai1 votes

I wholeheartedly agree with those arguments. I wouldn't surrender a match like this myself, but some people are so stubborn it's disgusting.

I don't know how it goes in NA, but people I've met in EU this season were religious about never surrendering. You'd think when everybody on the enemy team is 10/0 at 20min, surrender vote should pass 5:0. Surprise! 3:2 at best. 1:4 most of the time.

I honestly don't remember one game from Season 4 that'd not been surrendered when it was obvious one team wouldn't be able to recover. Now? Divines forbid!

S H A Y C 01 votes

There is a difference between "playing for fun" and "having fun while playing".

This...this is the foundation of your argument, one that i feel i have to agree with Marshy on, will be drowned out by the summoners code hammer you are trying to drop on peoples heads.

My feelings:

Ranked Queue: having fun while playing - with intent to put in maximum effort towards winning each match while still enjoying the game and the competitive nature of Ranked.

Any normal Queue: playing for fun - playing with the primary goal of enjoying yourself with winning any match, lane, 1v1, etc... being secondary and "icing on the cake" adding to the enjoyment, but not being the main goal.

Vistha Kai1 votes

I thought I was suppose to start it with a fact, rather than outright jumping into the match.

Should I rephrase/delete/leave it as is?

BastionKross1 votes

It's about morale. If someone on your team is in a state of mind so bad that they just want to lose and move on, that team member isn't going to be playing at his full potential. He's been mentally defeated. Now, you can carry that one guy, especially since (hopefully) he's still playing and "going through the motions" instead of just straight up AFK'ing. He's still a body in the fight.

The problem arises when three people on your team vote yes, since now the majority of your team just lost the will to fight. They would rather take a guaranteed loss and end this anguish rather than continue to play and hold on to a faint chance of winning. If you were one of the two people that voted no, you must understand that those three team members aren't going to be trying their hardest to win anymore. It's not fun for them anymore.

Unless you're getting paid to play the game, it might be in your best interest to release those team members from their misery instead of dragging it out. Yes, there's the chance you might win. But there is a better chance you might not, and end up tormenting your team instead.

ZergReap2 votes

Exactly this. The people who want to surrender, but are also decent people, will humor you and go through the motions. Although, one throw form the enemy team can put your whole team back to try harding.

redniwediS1 votes

In my opinion "playing for fun" implies that fun is the main goal, where as "having fun while playing" implies that fun is optional. This is a video game, fun shouldn't be optional.

This should be an issue between "playing casually" and "playing seriously". Both of these options fulfill having fun as the main goal, while still covering the issue described in the OP.

As a side note never end a post with anything describing who is about to downvote you, it just makes you look like an ass.

Vistha Kai1 votes

Which I tried to explain to that Talon. There are multiple game modes in the League. Ranked is about climbing the ladder, fun is secondary.

I won't deny fun is important, but if you play only for fun, then there are many other modes that are much more "playing for fun" friendly environment. ARAM, Dominion, 3v3, normal 5v5. Forcing fun upon others will only make them bitter towards it.

redniwediS1 votes

What you're saying is really an issue of casual vs serious, which makes no real statement over what role fun should be playing. Fun =/= casual.

Ranked is for people who have fun in a serious and competitive environment, where as normals are for people who like things to be a little more relaxed. This is a video game, fun is supposed to be the primary focus. These queues simply dictate how you have fun.

Vistha Kai1 votes

If you say it like this, I'd agree with you.

Still I can't, but wonder that he shouldn't play ranked, if that's his idea of having fun.

redniwediS1 votes

Under either of our views that guy should probably not be playing ranked. He seems like the kind of guy who plays ranked because ranked.

TenSlashTen1 votes

the guy that plays peter is a loser irl don';t use his gifs. Might make him popular or get noticed more than he doesn't deserve. Guys a serious prick.

Vistha Kai1 votes

Lelwut

TenSlashTen1 votes

I'm serious... His actor is a piece of shit, his attitude and his personality.

Really a shame, I did like the show for a little while. it had its rare gem episodes that were pretty enjoyable.

Vistha Kai1 votes

Ah, this way. I was just wondering what or if I should use a picture. "What really grinds my gears", just came through my mind. Didn't even know it's Peter's quote.

TenSlashTen1 votes

nah its probably from some movie since most family guy episodes are just a slew of references and shots at celebs that are more important than anyone on the cast to attract attention from media etc.

Vistha Kai1 votes

According to KYM it was first used in TV in "Planes, Trains & Automobiles". Which is possible because I liked movies with Steve Martin.

Kinjishi1 votes

"Then why won't you play normals?" This happens in normals as well. It doesn't matter if it is ranked or not. Those people, which would probably be you as well, would then say "Then why won't you play bots?" To which... I would say piss off. People who play casually aren't relegated to only bots. Also, surrendering when appropriate is good (so it doesn't waste time and effort fighting for a futile cause).

Vistha Kai1 votes

So it doesn't waste time and effort fighting for a futile cause.

Which happened to be the case in the match I described.

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