There's no such thing as a strong pick to the community anymore its either "unplayable"or"overpwerd"

WTFMatee·Feb 18, 2015·39 votes·2,359 views

I've seen this shit for almost a year now. When a champion comes even close to the spotlight people want them nerfed.

Think about urgot. Awhile ago he was a strong adc pick.

Then people complained he "had no counterplay" and NEEDed a nerf.

Now people complain riot shows no love to urgot.

Serioulsy it's and endless cycle

It's probably never going to stop too because instead of waiting for people to find a counter they want instant nerf and instant gratification..

Let the vicious cycle continue

52 Comments

TehNACHOFeb 18, 201515 votes

It's just the nature of the people who come to the Boards. People who are content with how the game is and how it plays as it is now generally don't come to the Gameplay and Balance Boards, they usually have no reason to, but very loud people who have very strong opinions almost always come to the Gameplay and Balance Boards to speak out their thoughts on Gameplay and Balance, and as you've seen, it gets pretty vicious when it gets there.

'Tis why we have to remember that the Boards is not an accurate representation of the community majority, it is but a vocal minority.

FyreNinjaFeb 18, 20153 votes

{quoted}

It's just the nature of the people who come to the Boards. People who are content with how the game is and how it plays as it is now generally don't come to the Gameplay and Balance Boards, they usually have no reason to, but very loud people who have very strong opinions almost always come to the Gameplay and Balance Boards to speak out their thoughts on Gameplay and Balance, and as you've seen, it gets pretty vicious when it gets there.

'Tis why we have to remember that the Boards is not an accurate representation of the community majority, it is but a vocal minority.

The "vocal minority" however, is what I would call some of the most involved league players. Your average, everyday player will not come to the boards. However, some of league's most dedicated players come here to discuss the game. Not going to argue with your point, I think it is a good one, but you have to remember that.

KarlyrFeb 18, 20153 votes

They are not necessarily the most involved players. Go see pro players, you rarely see them on the boards. Youtubers, nowhere to be found.

The most involved players are not necessarily the one on the boards. More often than not they come on the boards to advertise, then they say what they really think on their Stream/Videos/Blogs.

People on the boards really are a vocal minority. Nothing else.

Blue Moon WolfFeb 19, 20151 votes

to be fair, I think pro players don't think the same as other players. they are making a living on the game, to them its work, their main gets nerfed and they're having trouble adapting to the new set up for that champ, they move to the next best champ in there arsenal or play day and night, to get that champ back up to par again. no time to blog about nerfs when you have to put bread on the table, savvy?

YumminesFeb 18, 20157 votes

The problem is not the fact that people complain about champs being OP, it's the problem that there are certain champs you are pretty aware that Riot seems to adore and not care about any others.

See Ahri, who got almost immediate buffs after the removal of Deathfire Grasp. Meanwhile changes to other champs like Veigar and Mordekaiser are "in the works"

There are champs that I literally have not seen in at least a year (at least in normal games). Urgot, Trundle, Galio, Poppy (though my friend played her recently), Yorick, Maokai, Singed, Xerath, Anivia, Heimerdinger....

You can bet your ass that Riot puts underplayed champs on the backburner, as if they hope people will just forget them and not complain.

RoyaiChaosFeb 18, 20152 votes

No... Veigar/Morde were already problematic before the DFG removal, they're just trying to fix them now. Meanwhile, Poppy and Yorick are getting full reworks. And I've seen PLENTY of Xerath, Mokai and Trundle recently, like 1/6 of the mids I see are Xerath. Anivia and Heim are fine as well, no one wants any change for them. Singed is really ehh right now, not bad, not good.

SolaxoFeb 18, 20158 votes

{quoted}

The problem is not the fact that people complain about champs being OP, it's the problem that there are certain champs you are pretty aware that Riot seems to adore and not care about any others.

See Ahri, who got almost immediate buffs after the removal of Deathfire Grasp. Meanwhile changes to other champs like Veigar and Mordekaiser are "in the works"

There are champs that I literally have not seen in at least a year (at least in normal games). Urgot, Trundle, Galio, Poppy (though my friend played her recently), Yorick, Maokai, Singed, Xerath, Anivia, Heimerdinger....

You can bet your ass that Riot puts underplayed champs on the backburner, as if they hope people will just forget them and not complain.

What? Maokai had a visual upgrade and has 2 periods of high popularity. What are you talking about.

KarlyrFeb 18, 20153 votes

These champions had an "easy fix". Their kit is recent and was designed toward the meta building. Mordekaiser, Veigar, Poppy, Urgot all were champs that were designed without the idea of a meta. Their kits are clunky and hard to re-balance.

Remlap1223Feb 18, 20151 votes

Wait Trundle and Singed? You do realize that Trundle got indirectly buffed with the smite changes and jungle difficulty right? He heals more health from jungle camps now, which put him a leg above the other junglers. As for Singed, they sing-nificantly buffed his ultimate at level 3 and gave him increased utility with the fling ooze combo.

ThefriendlyorcFeb 19, 20151 votes

That really didnt solve any of his problems as a tank against the league of mobility. Singed pretty much HAS to proxy every game, die a ton and grab attention of 4-5 people to become relevant in a game. Try catching a Kalista, LB, Zed, Jarv, Gnar... list goes on

SquarefighterFeb 18, 20151 votes

"There are champs that I literally have not seen in at least a year (at least in normal games). Urgot, Trundle, Galio, Poppy (though my friend played her recently), Yorick, Maokai, Singed, Xerath, Anivia, Heimerdinger...."

I don't know what you're talking about. Maokai and Xerath are both extremely common picks and the rest are niche picks. Singed has been given an MVU and buffs recently. Ahri was a much simpler fix than Veigar and Mordekaiser, just because they are spending MORE effort on those two doesn't mean they are ignoring them, it means the opposite.

Honestly, it sounds like you're complaining just to complain.

FyreNinjaFeb 18, 20153 votes

Not to discourage you, but these exact types of posts are part of the cycle. Every once in a a while, a post complaining about the circlejerking of the boards will rise to the top, and then everyone will agree that all the boards circlejerks are cancer and annoying, then said post will disappear, and the circlejerk will continue. People just want to feel that their opinions are heard by riot, and everyone has a favorite champion that they think should perform a certain way, with certain stats (mine being yasuo/kalista) :P

WTFMateeFeb 18, 20157 votes

I don't even care about riot hearing my opinion i moreso want the community to hear my opinion so they can stop, slow down or at least make an effort to complain less.

If no one tries to make a difference nothing will change

SolaxoFeb 18, 20153 votes

Except Urgot is fine.

Drunk RummateFeb 18, 20153 votes

Strong picks that people are not calling for nerfs on:

Graves Morgana Janna Nami Orianna Rumble Vi Sivir Corki Caitlyn Irelia

I could continue but then people would probably start nitpicking so I'll just cut it here.

KarlyrFeb 18, 20152 votes

I saw Vi threads by masses.

Irelia is left alone just because of the "better nerf Irelia" meme.

I saw some Graves threads too.

The rest of your pool is just your opinion / elo.

OrangesilkFeb 18, 20156 votes

Woah, I think the rank-shaming was completely unnecessary for this one.

Corki has a 57.6% pick/ban rate in LCK. Rumble has a 50% pick/ban rate in LCK. Sivir has 45% Morgana has 36% Nami has 24%

Those are not "just his opinion/elo" it's what the Korean competitive meta believes are strong picks.

In fact, pretty much every region but NA realizes Rumble is an insanely strong pick, it's just that he's hard to master and doesn't do flashy stuff, so Americans don't really see the problem.

KarlyrFeb 18, 20153 votes

First it wasn't rank shaming. Meta is different from an elo to another. Don't beleive me ? Go play TF in bronze vs TF in diamond.

In bronze, you'll have a harder time making stuff happen vs in diamond because TF relies heavily on how your team reacts to stuff. (Now you can accuse me of rank shaming, but it's a fact, some characters are easier to climb with than others at different rank levels)

Second, Win rate has NOTHING to do with if it is a strong pick or not. As I said, Bronze TF vs Diamond TF. A higher win rate in solo queue only signifies that this champion has a good impact in solo queue games. The exact same applies to competitive play.

Third, opinion is also a thing. You have a different point of view on the situation than others. You have seen different games than others. It's not because YOU saw a strong Rumble that Rumble is a strong pick.

Fourth, other region might just have good rumble players / different team composition / different meta that allows to include Rumble more often. You can't judge competitive play between region, the "meta" differs largely from a place to another. Maybe NA is behind in the meta, maybe it's ahead. You don't know, I don't know no one knows, until there's an internationnal event.

And finally, if you really want an example, go see Hearthstone pro players. currently there are absolutely no "Meta" applied. Decks just comes and goes because you can build a viable deck that counters a popular deck currently.

OrangesilkFeb 18, 20152 votes

Well, there was an international event last year if you don't remember, Imagine Dragons did a song for it and everything, and this event pretty much proved Korea is MILES AHEAD as far as meta is concerned. If the Korean competitive meta believes Rumble is strong enough that he deserves being picked/banned 50% of all games, he probably deserves his spot as a strong pick.

In fact, most of the overwhelmingly strong champions in the competitive meta are not what the NA community complains about, Kassadin, Lulu, Rumble, Cassiopeia, these are the champions to be afraid of, but I keep seeing Yasuo threads in this day and age.

Solo-queue winrate is an indicator of well does a champ fare when played in low elo, since they make up the majority of the population, and I agree, it does not accurately indicate the real power of a champion, however, competitive statistics are an excellent indicator of a champions potential since it tells you how good the champion is when played by the very best players.

If you somehow don't think neither of those factors really prove that a certain champion pick is a strong pick then what do you believe in?, personal bias and experience?.

I have NEVER seen a good Rumble, few people actually play him, and even less people can master him, but I'm pretty sure he's a strong pick, because he's one of the most relevant competitive picks and his diamond winrate is huge.

Finally, Hearthstone is a young game, metas take a while to develop, specially in young eternal formats where each expansion pack changes like 30% of the card pool. Take a look at MTG Legacy meta, it has been there for such a long time, the relative card power is well known and you can accurately judge most strategies according to the meta, there are archetypes, counters to those archetypes, sideboard options and so on. I'd say a 120-champion game with like 8 champions released per year is old enough to develop a solid metagame.

KarlyrFeb 18, 20151 votes

An internationnal even which is months old and in which the game wasn't the same should not be taken into account. (Thanks to take me seriously and not try to roll me into mud, it would be appreciated.)

Competitive statistic are there for a small amount of players. Riot already stated they are balancing the for EVERYONE. It's completly false to say X character needs a nerf because he's picked or banned competitive wise. He needs attention. Not a pure nerf.

Rumble is a strong competitive pick in korea. And I said it, korea builds comp around him and other champions because there is a combo to be had. Competitive picks has zero indication of the health of a single character.

Hearthstone had strong metas in the past. Seasons in which there were 8 decks involved. Right now you can't tell if a Warlock is a Zoo, Control, Handlock, etc. until a few turns in. Agreed that league has place to developp a solid metagame, but it is not by blindly nerfing champs because "they are strong in Korea" that you'll acheive it. Korea has proven it more than once : they build strong TEAMS. We've seen it with Piglet - Impact and TIP coming to NA and doing close to nothing this season.

Kobila2000Feb 18, 20151 votes

Wow, you've seen "some threads", I've seen some threads complaining about Heimer or Master Yi, doesn't mean the community thinks they're op. The fact is, there's a ton of strong picks people aren't complaining about. And there's only some 5 at most picks that people are sick of seeing abused in every single game.

Remlap1223Feb 18, 20152 votes

After Lucian got gutted, Graves rose to the top of what he does, because Lucian was taken out of the picture.
Morgana I agree is OP, and people have constantly whined about reducing her root's cooldown.
Janna has been nerfed already, and is getting a huge passive nerf on the PBE.
Nami doesn't need a nerf just because Riot made Sona shit. This is the problem with revolving door nerfs, you can't tell who's really OP and who's simply filling a gap made by a champion that was fucking destroyed.
Orianna is useless in solo queue. She's big in the LC$ for utility, but that's because they're professional teams who kinda have to work together.
I can't remember the last time someone called Rumble OP. All he really has is his ultimate.
Vi got indirectly buffed with the new jungle, but also nerfed with certain itemization removal. She's strong, but not broken, just annoying as fuck to play against if she knows what she's doing.
Wut? Sivir? Are you serious?
Corki got nerfed hard. I personally never liked Corki in the first place.
Caitlyn hasn't been a problem since the itemization rework. If you posted this in Season 3, I would have wholeheartedly agreed with you because there was a Caitlyn every game.
Irelia's kit is just textbook overloaded. They have an excuse to nerf her since she's part of the ongoing "fighter rework" so they can gut her and talk about how she's on the backburner for the next 3 years.

KarlyrFeb 18, 20152 votes

Thank you, I didn't want to run through everything.

This is the problem with revolving door nerfs, you can't tell who's really OP and who's simply filling a gap made by a champion that was fucking destroyed.

This. Thanks.

Vi got indirectly buffed with the new jungle, but also nerfed with certain itemization removal. She's strong, but not broken, just annoying as fuck to play against if she knows what she's doing.

And people were complainning 4 days ago that Vi was OP. Then I saw a bunch of people failing at Vi, then I saw bans. Probably the proof that she is exactly where she needs to be. Not too strong because people can't play her unless they have knowledge, but not too weak so people who actually KNOWS how to play her can.

RaptameiFeb 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

And people was complainning 4 days ago that Vi was OP. Then I saw a bunch of people failing at Vi, then I saw bans. Probably the proof that she is exactly where she needs to be. Not too strong because people can't play her unless they have knowledge, but not too weak so people who actually KNOWS how to play her can.

Must be hard to play a champion with 2 dashes, an uncounterable knockup, a passive and a mindless AA buff. That's pretty much the definition of stat ball.

KarlyrFeb 18, 20152 votes

"Mindless AA buff" ? proof that you can't play her because it's pretty much how you get Vi rolling, you have to think about it.

"Uncounterable knockup", oh right because you can't kill her if you flash in your team.

Her passive is the only reason why she can still jungle ATM.

Anyway how long since you have last played a game ? Can't see anything under your profile, it's hard to judge things if you don't play.

RaptameiFeb 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Anyway how long since you have last played a game ? Can't see anything under your profile, it's hard to judge things if you don't play.

Why on earth would I play on the NA server?

Only Play DariusFeb 19, 20151 votes

Lmfao play vi a lot, can't tell you how many times my target has flashed into their team and got me killed before my ult completed.

Mikal PikalFeb 18, 20153 votes

She's really not easy to play and has a very risky play style. Anyways, name any champ and I can make them sound OP by listing their kit.

SpecterVonBarenFeb 18, 20151 votes

Eh, Lucian isn't really gutted, its just that him and Graves are so similar that whenever one of them is even slightly stronger than the other, people use him.

Remlap1223Feb 18, 20151 votes

That's my point. Before his "retune" he was a long range burst caster. After they "retuned" him he turned into a better Graves. So that was all on Riot's fault for that one. Don't get me wrong, I thought the idea was cool, but way too similar to Sivir and Graves, ESPECIALLY since he shoots light from his guns. And lo and behold, I was right. The same thing that happened to Sona happened to Lucian, once Riot started power nerfing him, another similar champion took his place.

RisurinFeb 18, 20153 votes

its a lot easier to come here and QQ, then to look why you have trouble with X champion and how can you fix that, most of the time its jsut better decision making :^)

cookiesforuFeb 18, 20152 votes

Thank you! I never come on these boards but today I'm bored at work. I didn't realize how many complaining noobs there are so frustrated with their lack of skill that they come on here to cry about it. It's not the champion pool's fault or riot's that people can't climb ELO. I was only Gold V last season after 4 years of playing this fucking game. This season I finally realized a lot of my own personal issues with the game. I had bad luck in my promos and made some bad duo decisions and placed Bronze I. Guess what?? I was out in a day. Guess what? It's been 2 weeks and I'm already in Silver II. Guess what???? I'll be back to Gold in no time and this time with a different mindset. The mindset of what can I do to better carry my team? What can I do to keep my team from flaming eachother? What can i do to win this game that we are behind in? Then you do it. You watch streams, you watch the LCS, you read guides, you become a better player and a better person. You don't complain, blame (other players or riot for nerfing your champ). I will be plat this season......and guess what......? Plat isn't even good, but I'll be fucking happy with it because I am growing as a player.

Grow as a player or continue to bitch, moan, and ultimately lose most of your rank games where you were 10/1/5 at one point but now you're 10/10/10 and you lost. That used to be me. Not anymore.

RisurinFeb 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Thank you! I never come on these boards but today I'm bored at work. I didn't realize how many complaining noobs there are so frustrated with their lack of skill that they come on here to cry about it. It's not the champion pool's fault or riot's that people can't climb ELO. I was only Gold V last season after 4 years of playing this fucking game. This season I finally realized a lot of my own personal issues with the game. I had bad luck in my promos and made some bad duo decisions and placed Bronze I. Guess what?? I was out in a day. Guess what? It's been 2 weeks and I'm already in Silver II. Guess what???? I'll be back to Gold in no time and this time with a different mindset. The mindset of what can I do to better carry my team? What can I do to keep my team from flaming eachother? What can i do to win this game that we are behind in? Then you do it. You watch streams, you watch the LCS, you read guides, you become a better player and a better person. You don't complain, blame (other players or riot for nerfing your champ). I will be plat this season......and guess what......? Plat isn't even good, but I'll be fucking happy with it because I am growing as a player.

Grow as a player or continue to bitch, moan, and ultimately lose most of your rank games where you were 10/1/5 at one point but now you're 10/10/10 and you lost. That used to be me. Not anymore.

Well good luck with your games! you seem to have the right mindset to go far :)

Tin TarantinoFeb 18, 20152 votes

People just like to think that there is a huge gap between top tier and the rest, probably why people have been giving me certain champions in nemesis draft, someone assumed that giving me Yorick was a good idea a few games ago

RaptameiFeb 18, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tin Tarantino,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=XlXEy1Jy,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2015-02-18T16:10:55.821+0000)

People just like to think that there is a huge gap between top tier and the rest, probably why people have been giving me certain champions in nemesis draft, someone assumed that giving me was a good idea a few games ago

In my experience, when your team gives the other team Yorick, you get Poppy and when you ask for a lane swap you're called a troll or idiot.

Tin TarantinoFeb 18, 20151 votes

best laning phase vs worst laning phase, sounds pretty brutal, you pretty much need to stay behind your turret and just try to soak XP at that point.

AriafluxFeb 18, 20151 votes

Not exactly true as Graves and Jixn are strong picks, way above Kalista, but they aren't being complained about much.

WTFMateeFeb 18, 20152 votes

true that,

Still there are many champs that aren't or never were op. but got nerfed because it was meta.

Truly i think the only GAMEBREAKING op champ was release xin zhao

thehalfrican23Feb 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I've seen this shit for almost a year now. When a champion comes even close to the spotlight people want them nerfed.

Think about urgot. Awhile ago he was a strong adc pick.

Then people complained he "had no counterplay" and NEEDed a nerf.

Now people complain riot shows no love to urgot.

Serioulsy it's and endless cycle

It's probably never going to stop too because instead of waiting for people to find a counter they want instant nerf and instant gratification..

Let the vicious cycle continue

That's how it is with most games and with that whole urgot thing his true opness lies in him being in top lane... whos fiora oh that fencer chick that has to run from these acid hunters lol Urgot is the man

warpenguin555Feb 18, 20151 votes

pretty much

KazaashiFeb 18, 20151 votes

I think one thing no one on the boards thinks about is a concept called "Perfect Imbalance".

I'd try to sum it up, but this video does it better:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

OrangesilkFeb 18, 20151 votes

That's DOTA's design philosophy, not LoL's.

Dingding123Feb 18, 20151 votes

Riot made sure of that

tainteddazeFeb 18, 20151 votes

there is a lot of strong pick currently in this game that are not overpowered. Why do you think people play so many champions. The problem here though is that the jungle is in ruins. Most champions can't do it while others that can, the very little amounts of them, control it so powerfully that there is no balance in it. The lane picks honestly aren't that imbalance zed needs to be toned down but that is cause the way they nerfed mana regen so hard core and there is ways to do this without hitting his damage in his kit. But zed isn't overpowered it just how the game shifted when riot did the huge rehaul. Lee sin on the other had is brokenly overpowered and he needs a gutting, but riot doesn't want to gut the most played champion in the game cause then they fear they will lose player base for doing it.

JunkοFeb 18, 20151 votes

Awhile ago or do you mean 3 seasons when he got nerfed like 5 patched in a row?

DaenFeb 18, 20151 votes

Awhile ago he was a strong adc pick.

Then people complained he "had no counterplay" and NEEDed a nerf.

Now people complain riot shows no love to urgot.

There's a big misconception going around about this; power is not the same as counterplay. Urgot overall has low counterplay, and when he's at equal strength to other champions in his role he is absurdly frustrating to play against. He's still frustrating when he's numerically weaker, but it's less mind-numbingly terrible to face him.

Yorick is another good example. He has almost zero counterplay outside of "soak up his poke and win the duel", and when he's strong/viable it sucks to be against him. This doesn't necessarily mean he's overpowered, but he is completely anti-fun and could probably use a nerf so he doesn't continually ruin games.

One final example, Evelynn. Evelynn used to be (and somewhat still is) total bullshit. She wasn't necessarily overpowered, but the amount of frustration and playstyle altering she forced was so overwhelming that Riot decided to smash her into nonexistence until they could get around to working on her. Again, they didn't do this because she was too strong; they did this because she was too frustrating.

It's probably never going to stop too because instead of waiting for people to find a counter they want instant nerf and instant gratification..

Many of the older champions just straight up don't have counterplay, or it's unreasonably imbalanced. Blitzcrank is a pretty good example of this, because Rocket Grab's potential benefit is so far above its cost that it might as well be undodgeable. If he lands a single good hook lategame, despite missing 400 of them previously, it could singlehandedly (c wut i did thar) win the game for his team. Is he overpowered as a champion? Probably not, but he has some pain points.

CoxamusPrimeFeb 18, 20151 votes

I believe your missing out on something a bit more important. The word is overnerfed. What made Urgot bullshit to play against was the range of his R which if done right just about always a win. So to remove a bad mechanic, the nerfed the skill, and then his Q, E, and W on top of it.