Whats with all the sudden Karma love?

warpenguin555·Feb 24, 2016·2 votes·954 views

Last week or so she seems to be the most loved champion here. Did I miss something?

21 Comments

SilverSquidFeb 25, 20163 votes

I'm probably to blame for some of this. I have migrated to the NA boards a few weeks ago and I keep posting big threads about her. I've started doing this after finishing doing all my tests with the 5.10 changes and concluding, that my first instincts were right, and that they weren't only a hit to her thematics, but also her gameplay depth, decision making and high level viability. I am convinced that those changes were against good game design and I will continue until someone convinces me otherwise.

The other reason could have been the mage update. Paraphrasing/Exaggerating is fun:

RIOT: "We are reworking mages who don't have a clear reason to be picked over others this summer." Boards: "So, champions like Karma, right?" RIOT: "No, no, we are doing immobile mages." Boards: "So.... Karma?" RIOT: "Nah, one of the shortes MS buffs in the game is enough to be mobile. Besides, she is in the support mage category and we are doing support mages sometimes else, But maybe never because they are all very distinct :)." Boards: "Isn't Zyra a support m..." RIOT: "I AM SORRY, WE CANT HEAR YOU OVER THIS AWESOME SHEN UPDATE!"

I am sorry, I actually like Riot, and their design philosophy. It's just that I can't get behind their reasoning when talking about Karma. If they ever talk about Karma, that is.

IxtaliKingFeb 25, 20161 votes

So in the short term what do you think we should push for? Because they won't be doing big updates to Karma anytime soon.

SilverSquidFeb 25, 20162 votes

Put shortly: Dialogue.

A bit more precisely: I want to communicate that it just doesn't make sense to keep buffing a champion, that has lost his/her thematics (why do people like the idea of a champion) and has no gameplay identity (why would people want to pick her ingame). Obviously, if they understand the problems with the overlap of Brand and Vel'koz in terms of gameplay identity, they must understand it for Karma. And I want them to adress this.

I would love to have a real game designer have a look on my suggestions and just tell me what is possible. But if anything, I just want to tell us if, with their updated game values and better ways of creating champions, if there is a way to restore some thematics, depth and uniqueness back to her.

If they don't want to touch Karma in season 6, I at least want them to admit that they either don't care or don't know what to do. If they don't care, I can leave her be and learn another champion. If they don't know what to do, I wanna work with them.

IxtaliKingFeb 25, 20161 votes

I don't know if you've seen Meddler's recent comments on Karma yet, but he was saying they don't have any plans for any major changes to Karma as there are champs who need the work more. I mean, personally I feel as if correcting mistakes before you take on new projects is a better way to go, since there's a chance they might ruin someone elses champ anyway. So I was thinking more a long the lines of what small changes we should push for in the short term. I'd consider reverting her RW and RE 5.10 changes small changes, but idk, riot doesn't like going back. People seem to think it was those changes in 5.10 which made Karma more viable as opposed to the new items, masteries and numerous other changes since then, so idk man.

SilverSquidFeb 25, 20161 votes

None of the arguments for removing the damage on RW and RE made any sense.

Contextual Decision Making RQ is just the best in most contexts now
Buff her passive without overbuffing her teamfights Ruin her thematics to buff her passive, eh? Why not let her be strong at clumped teamfights? It's not like there is no counterplay -> don't clump.
Better at supporting This would make sense for her RW, but she was and IS one of the supports who is all about damage. Instead of keeping her great at this, they forced pseudo-utility onto her, that is so weak and unreliable, that she can't compete with other utility mages anyways. This is the opposite of highlighting strengths.

If there is anything I would argue for in short-term changes, it's that one. If deciding what to mantra was actually a challenge....

IxtaliKingFeb 25, 20161 votes

The loss of her shield bomb was bad enough, that was wrong... But the more I think about what they did with her RW it burns me so much. Aside from the low hp heals, the damage was the only thing keeping this spell relevant and often a wiser choice for her mantra. Nobody asked for a longer root why tf would they do that lol

SilverSquidFeb 26, 20162 votes

The changed it from a problematic trading tool to a pointless CC tool. From all the things they could've done with this spell, this was the most stupid. If they just allowed it to be cast on allies to share the heal, it would've helped support Karma so much without impacting solo Karma at all, and even increasing her "contextual decision making" more than they did. With her shield and a useable heal she would've been actually able to take care of her ADC, even without her CC. And if the %missinghp would've been too much - COZ TANKS!1! - just lower it and give it a flat value, which makes more sense for a mage anyways.

Also; fuck that root.

REDREX7Feb 24, 20162 votes

Just give her E an offensive component.... why no one listen to me??!!! She is fine right now but it sucks having only two damaging abilities.

A Miss FortuneFeb 25, 20163 votes

I think Karma's biggest issue is that her Mantra is almost always used on her Q. There's just really not many situations where her W/E with Mantra would be better than her Q- an extremely high burst AoE slow.

legionnaire99Feb 24, 20161 votes

she was free

The Bearded BardFeb 24, 20161 votes

People that don't play karma pretend that they do and ask for a rework even though the people that do play karma don't want a rework. Happens all the time to less popular champions and it's how we end up with abominations like the skarner rework.

IxtaliKingFeb 24, 20163 votes

More like the people who are actually fans of Karma, pre rework and up to 5.10 want their champ back. The people who want the rework/gameplay update the most are the people who Karma actually means or at one point meant a lot to. You are right about what happens to less popular champs though, it happened in 5.10 when people who didn't even know, like or play Karma sold her out for those very misguided changes.

The Bearded BardFeb 24, 20161 votes

I was one of the people that played Karma before her changes. I played her mid, top, and support just like I do now. I can tell you for a fact that she's stronger now than ever. I can't shove my preference down your throat, but I prefer her how she is now.

IxtaliKingFeb 24, 20161 votes

I played her also, I agree she's stronger now but that's largely because of item changes and the new masteries. Not to mention the other buffs she's been given since then, she didn't need to be changed like that.

Itadaki SeiekiFeb 25, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bearded Bard,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=U5IWQTQZ,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-02-24T14:32:52.397+0000)

People that don't play karma pretend that they do and ask for a rework even though the people that do play karma don't want a rework. Happens all the time to less popular champions and it's how we end up with abominations like the skarner rework.

I miss old Karma. :c

TouchpadExpertFeb 24, 20161 votes

She is not a bad camp but is in a bad spot right now. She doesn't need a rework, she just needs to be buffed. Make her shield do AOE damage when Mantra cast is on and that should be all she needs. Right now she is nothing more than a Q Spammer.

FurretHasAGlockFeb 24, 20161 votes

she is meant to be a support, but I honestly find going full AP, then one shotting the enemy squishies with a mantra Q. (I've one shot a nami, legit, from 100%, with one q. It was majestic.)

IxtaliKingFeb 24, 20161 votes

She's a mage primary, a utility mage in the same class as Orianna and Morgana.

CatboyAsbelFeb 24, 20161 votes

She's broken beyond belief and a free win to anyone who plays her, of course she would be loved.

OverpoweredSoapFeb 24, 20161 votes

There's always been a group of people who have strong opinions on how she works and how she plays.

They just tend to post in bursts rather than consistently, usually because one person starts talking about her and then more people start talking about her.

Her community honestly really split though.

REDREX7Feb 25, 20161 votes

I think Mantra W is the second most used mantra version after Mantra Q. 40% missing hp is always strong at all points of the game. While Mantra E needs levels and ap to be useful. At least in terms of solo lane karma. Im not using Mantra E as much compared to the others. I wish Mantra E gave an aoe knock back and did damage like old karma shield bomb. That would be amazing but to compensate reduce the aoe of it to about the size of Sona's smallest auras. And maybe make the shield only radiate out from Karma only instead of being able to shield anyone. So Karma can sit near her adc as support and provide meaningful peel.