I'm going to guess a big fat NEVER, but just to humor the thought, what kind of harassment from teammates would you need to be getting for Riot to say "yeah, you can bail out if you want"?
Probably the point where people are telling you to commit suicide, right? No point playing with teammates who want you to off yourself.
MackleDoge2 votesI would say never. For one thing, if you leave you can't report them at the end game lobby. Also, you can mute them to not get any of that, so you don't have to endure it for the rest of the game before you report them. In the end, if you leave, they win. You don't report them (yes the system might note them and they could get hit by Lyte's test system) and you could get punished by LeaverBuster and such.
darkdill2 votesCurrent system sucks, then.
I don't frequently leave. Just when I either have unavoidable chores (refusal could get me kicked out of the house since I'm over 20) or when my teammates are literally telling me they want to shoot me. Mute just doesn't do it. If they are that vicious to you, they'll know when you mute them and will troll you in other ways.
MackleDoge3 votesFair enough, I agree the system isn't very good for stopping abuse in the game.
Personally this stuff doesn't bother me, what some stranger on the internet says to me or thinks of me means absolutely nothing to me. I just mute them and move on. I acknowledge that some people are a bit more sensitive to such things for whatever reason and I also acknowledge that some people get more aggravated by the post muting antics than others.
Hyrum Graff1 voteswhen my teammates are literally telling me they want to shoot me.
The idea is you mute people before it escalates to that level, I think.
Personally, I've had a lot more fun in games ever since I decided to have an itchy trigger finger on the mute button. I mute people at the first or second toxic or semi-toxic thing they say. Sometimes I mute them at game start if they gave off bad vibes in champ select.
I can generally tell what they're saying from what my teammates say, and I can always unmute them later if I think they're being constructive.
snelly122 votesIn normals: If people are hardcore raging at you in normals I wouldn't feel bad at all for leaving cuz you don't need to put up with that... crap.
In ranked: If you leave you are hurting yourself and IMO should be punished. I know everyone says this but MUTE EVERYONE. Finish the damn game and take a break if it's really effecting you.
In both cases leave busters will put a mark on your record but I have faith that people in the tribunal won't vote to punish you if you abandoned a team that was truly verbally abusing you for no reason.
Reamer4 votesTribunal doesn't see leave buster cases
Reamer2 votesSadly never Riot, would rather you rage and spam hate all game then leave if you leave anything they did wrong is forgiven and you might get a ban. cuz that is how riot thinks..
Hyrum Graff2 votesThat's not true. If you leave, that just makes two wrongs. Two wrongs do not make a right.
You'll both get punishments.
Angry Monster2 votesThats what mute is for.
medamined942 votesif I'm speaking as a tester I would say never, but as a player believe me, I would bail out of the game right after I get trolled,because the fact that the reports doesn't change anything for the troller makes you hate yourself even more, with all the respect I say that if there is new updates coming they should include the whole tribunal system in those updates.
Hyrum Graff2 votesthe reports doesn't change anything for the troller
I'm not sure where you got this idea. Reports => bans.
Hyrum Graff2 votesI'm going to guess a big fat NEVER,
^^
Anything verbal, you should mute them, keep playing, and report them at the end.
If I've got a feeder on my team, and the team won't surrender, I'll keep trying and I'll also ask the other team to just end it.
InsaneSamurai1 votesRiot says never, because of the mute button. Doesn't really help when they can still find ways to troll you though :(
darkdill3 votesYeah, like griefing by telling your enemies where you are. Or stealing your CS/jungle camps non-stop or emote-spamming while clinging to you everywhere you go.
Solari Eclipse1 votesI thought muting also muted emotes? Doesn't come up enough for me to actually need to know that, but I thought it did.
darkdill1 votesIt does, but them clinging to you is still annoying. As is their stealing of your money.
And they can still ping-spam you. No muting pings.
Solari Eclipse1 votesI figured that part.
Honestly in my 4 years of playing I have never even seen what you describe.
Earl Eulrich1 votesif you can´t bear it anymore...I think your personal dignity should stand above things like leaver-buster. There´s really no point in playing the game if you can´t enjoy it due to the "kindness" of your "teammates". ofc unfortunately it´s often you that has to bear the consequences of leaving the game then, but that really is the systems fault. If Riot bans people for not putting up with all the shit that gets thrown at them from time to time they don´t deserve those customers - and those customers deserve a better game.
Hyrum Graff2 votesIf you mute all the players, there's little they can do to target you personally - in order to hurt you, they need to throw the game, in which case you've just got another thing to report them for.
Earl Eulrich1 votesSo you would mute them and carry them anyway...though they did insult you in the first place? It´s like getting slapped in the face and then licking someones shoes clean in silence. I might have strange concepts - but i don´t feel that´s really sth. that preserves ones own dignity. The System really is lacking once it comes to verbal abuse, marking leavers as the wrong party in all cases doesn´t really benefit anyone but the flamers in the first place from my perspective...and as the not leaving abused person has to continue that game he doesn´t want to play in silence it´s likely he just gets frustrated and turns toxic his own in the next game - so things only spiral downwards.
Hyrum Graff1 votesSo you would mute them and carry them anyway...though they did insult you in the first place? It´s like getting slapped in the face and then licking someones shoes clean in silence.
No, no it's not. That's like being at your job, working on a project with someone. If the project succeeds, you both get paid. If it fails, neither of you do. Your partner slaps you in the face and refuses to help on the project. You proceed to be the bigger man and make the project succeed anyway. You and your partner both get paid. Then you go to your boss and get your partner fired, so he can't screw up anybody else's project again.
Actually, it's not even this bad,
The System really is lacking once it comes to verbal abuse
Why do you feel this way? I think I've seen a marked decline in verbal abusers since the chat restrictions system was implemented.
marking leavers as the wrong party in all cases doesn´t really benefit anyone but the flamers in the first place from my perspective..
It benefits the other people in the game, who aren't flamers and aren't leavers.
It's very rare that you get 4 flamers and 1 leaver (unless it's a toxic 4-man premade). If you're in a game, and one of your teammates is abusing another teammate of yours, does it make you feel better when the abused teammate leaves? No, because now you have a flamer AND it's a 4v5. And more than likely, that flamer turns around and starts raging at someone else, maybe you.
You're also making it seem like there's only one wrong party. This isn't the case. The flamer is the wrong party. I believe that the leaver is a different party, who is also wrong.
and as the not leaving abused person has to continue that game he doesn´t want to play in silence it´s likely he just gets frustrated and turns toxic his own in the next game - so things only spiral downwards.
Earl Eulrich1 votesIt benefits the other people in the game, who aren't flamers and aren't leavers.
It's very rare that you get 4 flamers and 1 leaver (unless it's a toxic 4-man premade). If you're in a game, and one of your teammates is abusing another teammate of yours, does it make you feel better when the abused teammate leaves? No, because now you have a flamer AND it's a 4v5. And more than likely, that flamer turns around and starts raging at someone else, maybe you.
Well, for me everyone that just stands by and leaves a flamer be without saying a word to calm the situation down/defend/back up the victim of the flame is not really better than the flamer him/herself. And muting someone doesn´t make the problem go away....it´s not making the flamer any nicer just because you don´t see his chat anymore, he won´t learn a thing and you still will feel abused and unwillling to play a game with that guy - but as you´re kinda forced to play it your motivation goes downhill and there´s just nothing uplifitng that gets offered from the game...so there´s a lot more negative impact on the guy that got abused than there is for the flamer - him being maybe banned in some uncertain future really doesn´t help with your game, mood and motivation being ruined.
Being the bigger/better man doesn´t mean that you silently take the hits and carry on - it means that you stand up for yourself and others in need.
Hyrum Graff1 votesWell, for me everyone that just stands by and leaves a flamer be without saying a word to calm the situation down/defend/back up the victim of the flame is not really better than the flamer him/herself.
I wouldn't say that. It's certainly not good, but at least they're not actively making someone feel worse.
And muting someone doesn´t make the problem go away....it´s not making the flamer any nicer just because you don´t see his chat anymore,
It won't make him nicer, but it will make it so I don't have to deal with him, which, for me, pretty much makes the problem go away.
I'm playing this game to have fun. Playing with a flamer isn't fun. Playing with someone who doesn't talk can be fun.
he won´t learn a thing
Not from muting him, he won't. You're right about that. Muting is a temporary measure designed to make that game more enjoyable for you. It is not a solution for toxicity.
What will help him learn is when you report him after, and he gets chat restrictions or bans. There are actually two kinds of toxic players:
Players who know they are toxic, and don't want to change.
Players who don't know they are toxic.
(There's kind of a 3rd, players who know they are toxic and want to change, but these tend to stop being toxic pretty quickly, so I'm not going to worry about them.)
you still will feel abused and unwillling to play a game with that guy -snip-
I've found that when someone is raging at me, one of two things happens:
Being the bigger/better man doesn´t mean that you silently take the hits and carry on - it means that you stand up for yourself and others in need.
So what, I should start a fistfight in the office? I don't think we're seeing quite eye-to-eye here, because I am doing something about him. I'm reporting him to my boss at the end of the project, and he's going to get fired.
Being the Bigger Man (BBM for short?) means putting aside the conflict for the moment to focus on what's more important, and then handling the guy in a mature way.
Earl Eulrich1 votesSo what, I should start a fistfight in the office? I don't think we're seeing quite eye-to-eye here, because I am doing something about him. I'm reporting him to my boss at the end of the project, and he's going to get fired.
Being the Bigger Man (BBM for short?) means putting aside the conflict for the moment to focus on what's more important, and then handling the guy in a mature way.
noone wants you to start a fistfight, violence certainly never is the right solution to anything (except in self-defense). But you can just can tell that guy that you won´t work with him any longer and will go to your Boss asap to talk about the situation, so you can finish the work alone/with a co-worker you can work with together...so you can really focus on the work at hand and enjoy it...witch will improve the quality of your work in the end.
Hyrum Graff1 votesnoone wants you to start a fistfight, violence certainly never is the right solution to anything (except in self-defense). But you can just can tell that guy that you won´t work with him any longer and will go to your Boss asap to talk about the situation, so you can finish the work alone/with a co-worker you can work with together...so you can really focus on the work at hand and enjoy it...witch will improve the quality of your work in the end.
The problem is that if you take the analogy this far, it stops being able to translate into league, because in League, there is no option to report the player in-game.
Let's try to make the analogy a little closer. Remember, there are also 3 other people on the project with you, who are going to keep working on it whatever you do. The guy who slapped you is perfectly capable of working on the project with you, as long as you don't see each other in person (that is, he's capable of playing with you as long as he can't talk to you). After the slap, your options are:
Amongst these options I think the last one is clearly the best. If there's another option that exists in league that I haven't included here, let me know, but I just fail to see what you could do that would be more correct, morally/ethically.
Earl Eulrich1 votesThe problem is that if you take the analogy this far, it stops being able to translate into league, because in League, there is no option to report the player in-game.
So...maybe that is the problem to begin with? If the system that checks for bad laguage would invoke ingame-votes (4/0) to throw the player asap and end the game if it detects toxic laguage, maybe that would be an improvment?
Hyrum Graff1 votesHow is this any different than just surrendering so you don't have to deal with a toxic player?
It might also encourage players who want to surrender (but their team doesn't want to) to be toxic.
I'm also curious to hear what you have to say about one of the things I said earlier:
I've found that when someone is raging at me, one of two things happens:
- They say something toxic, or even borderline toxic, even if it's not directed at me, and I mute them right away.
I'm curious if you usually wait a long time before muting (or mute at all), or whether you mute people right away. Personally, I've found the game is much more enjoyable if I am very trigger-happy with the mute button. To the point where, sometimes I suspect that someone will be toxic in game, from the way they're acting in champ select, so I'll mute them the second I get into game. If (from my other teammates' chat) it seems like they're being helpful, I can always unmute them later.
Earl Eulrich1 votesHow is this any different than just surrendering so you don't have to deal with a toxic player?
surrendering = saying you can´t win the game, ackknowledging your opponents superior gameplay has nothing to to with punishing toxicity.
I'm curious if you usually wait a long time before muting (or mute at all), or whether you mute people right away. Personally, I've found the game is much more enjoyable if I am very trigger-happy with the mute button. To the point where, sometimes I suspect that someone will be toxic in game, from the way they're acting in champ select, so I'll mute them the second I get into game. If (from my other teammates' chat) it seems like they're being helpful, I can always unmute them later.
I usually don´t mute anyone, as I feel like it´s just giving in. turning your back on problems and ignoring them is just sth. very different from solving them/improving the situation.
Hyrum Graff2 votessurrendering -snip-
I mean, how is it functionally different?
I usually don´t mute anyone, as I feel like it´s just giving in. turning your back on problems and ignoring them is just sth. very different from solving them/improving the situation.
OK. I guess this is where we differ in opinion a little bit.
I think we're in agreement here, that muting is not a solution to the problem. However, I contest that muting is a way to make that game more enjoyable for you.
If you were in game with your friends, who you play with all the time, and one of your friends is toxic, I agree, muting them is a very bad solution. But in SoloQ, these are people who you'll probably never see again. You can't solve their toxicity in-game; you have to look at ways to tackle toxicity at a system-wide issue. You can, however, use the mute button to make a more enjoyable experience for yourself, in game. If you want to look at it from another perspective, use the mute button so that flamers won't get you mad, and turn you into a flamer. I'd encourage you to consider using it more.
I also think it's important to reduce toxicity in league, so the mute button isn't needed. I just think that initiatives like the Tribunal are the way to do this, not by individual players, one game at a time, because in-game, the flamers are worked-up, and not likely to listen or think clearly.
Earl Eulrich1 votesWell, I guess we´re not very far appart there. I just would want for a more responsive form/system to cast out toxicity. If players could be removed from an running game for being toxic it would probably have more impact not only on them, but also on others that directly see htat people really get punished for being toxic, instead of having to believe that they somehow will be silently banned someday...making them less likely to get toxic themselves maybe.
Hyrum Graff2 votesAny system that punishes a player mid-game for toxicity, also stops that game, though. So yes, it might be effective at combating toxicity, but at what cost?
I actually think your point is one of the reasons chat restrictions are awesome - because players interact with other players who have been chat restricted, they know the system is working.
Earl Eulrich1 votesCan´t say there´s much left besides agreeing to that. Had been a very enjoyable discussion for me. I wish you a very pleasant night.