Scarlett Letter for Trolls, feeders, and AFKs. Let me see the Discipline!

Occams Raiser·Apr 26, 2015·6 votes·1,083 views

Yeah I said it. Part of the satisfaction of someone getting in trouble after messing with you is seeing justice done. If people were sent to a secret prison and you didn't know what sort of thing went on there, how would you know if justice had been served.

What is the point of people being corrected for abuse and toxicity if no one can see the effects of the Tribunal. Yeah I know its not a popular thing to say I guess and Riot is so worried about shame that it would never happen but a guy can dream. I would love a banner or an icon that went on their profile to know that some action had been taken against them. Perception means a lot. Knowing that something had happen to someone would go a long way.

What is point of taking someone into a dark room saying "Don't worry. he will be dealt with." You see the dude walking around the very next day. WHAT? Carrot seems to be just rare as the stick in LOL.

Put it in team builder. "But then No one will play with me." Chattering teeth ICON: I'll play with you. Keyboard ICON: Maybe. Bridge with a grinning face under it ICON: Sorry you did that to yourself.

41 Comments

Luner HunterApr 26, 20152 votes

Occams RaiserApr 26, 20151 votes

Who down votes an up vote.... lololol

IcyPepperApr 26, 20152 votes

Uh... what if they get reformed?

We're not supposed to get the satisfaction of the troll's punishment, that doesn't make us better people. We already have chat restrictions, leaver buster, and all that for people who constantly break the rules. There's no need for this system beyond personal satisfaction, which is the reason Riot won't implement that.

Occams RaiserApr 26, 20151 votes

That is what you think. Just because Riot wouldn't do doesn't mean it doesn't have a place. All over the world shame is a part of several punishment systems. And I'm not talking about Muslims countries either.

It isn't always about the person that gets shamed. Other trolls see what happens to you. They say "fuuuuuck that!"

IcyPepperApr 26, 20151 votes

I don't think trolls are going to care about a Scarlet letter.

And Riot has repeatedly claimed to talk about reform over just punishment, so this system won't really mesh with them. If you see them with a scarlet letter, aren't you more likely to report them if they stick a toe over the line? Hell, I can see people getting reported for something as simple as "GG!" just because they had a letter, even if they were perfectly reformed the entire game.

I don't think it'll work. We need to think about reform, not just punishment. Trolls, yes there's nothing to be done there. Afk's should be restricted a bit because while there is the "Shit happens clause," lower priority queues exist for a reason. As for feeders... mmr/LP punishments if it's done on purpose, and just let it go if they did it for one game because they just sucked (just report "unskilled player" in that case).

Occams RaiserApr 26, 20152 votes

I am more likely to drop out the game if I see the letter. I know it isn't in line with the way Riot feels but what they do isn't working. They are a company that has to keep everything PC. When you deal with real world psychology you know there are push backs by those that would destroy what you have built for various reasons. When you get to a point where they are willing to battle on a front you will not follow, the enemy has won. Imagine if you could drop out of any game with a troll in it and you could see the branded players that have trolled more than ten games in the past 90 days. You might play with and give them a chance to redeem their score. I would though. You could be the bigger person and I could have my troll free game. The trolls would get a rube to troll off of. Everyone is happy. And if it was harder for trolls to find games and they weren't' really trolls, the letter would fall off over time anyway just like the honors banners. At one time I had a Honorable Opponent banner and now I don't. I didn't change my play style.

If trolls can troll, they will care. Reform comes through penance not well wishing. You must lose something to atone. Right now trolls lose nothing. They use trash accounts and they have a bunch of them built up to level 30. What if I too it from them in 10 games worth of trolling? By the end of the month all their accounts except their main that they don't troll on would be branded. The only way they could get a game would be to use their main. If they wanted to make a new account they are welcome to. How long does it take to get to level 30 so you can troll again? Is it worth it when you be branded with in 10 games?

Every time I see a branded player in ranked I'm dodging. That is not my fault. I should not be forced to play with them anyway.

EL HAMSTEROApr 26, 20152 votes

dear police - I love calling in to report people who are speeding. but why am I never notified that they got a ticket? please write me a thank you note for being a good little tattle tale each time I turn someone in. also make the evil law breakers wear a sign that says 'i am a criminal' or some such for the rest of their days. this would give me a lot of satisfaction.

I know it is unlikely to happen but a tattler can dream.

Occams RaiserApr 26, 20151 votes

Can you tell the difference between speeding without damages vs trolling 4 people and directly effecting them in game?

Correct analogy:

"Dear police, Could you notify me when that guy who killed my family has been brought to justice?"

If you are going to attempt to be an asshole, be a funny one. I guess you knew your analogy was bullshit before you said it though, but you were already there and nothing better came to mind.

JubbinautApr 26, 20154 votes

Because loss of life totally equates to dealing with something you don't like for an hour, right?

Occams RaiserApr 26, 20151 votes

the loss of something is the loss is a better analogy than no loss at all. wouldn't you say? Now we are just arguing about how much it should matter. You are in the camp of "its just the a game". That is the camp that sympathizes with those that ruin other people's fun for their own amusement. Is that a good side to be on? It seems to be very popular until you compare it to anything real world.

Someone waste an hour of your time. You make more than it cost to buy a small shake per hour at you job. If someone smacks the shake out your hand and you smack the shit of the guy who does it, no one is going to say its just a shake. Most everyone would say it serves him right. its only 2.50. Why is it so important. I don't think its that important.

Yeah I know, you wouldn't do anything to that guy either.

JubbinautApr 26, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Occams Raiser,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=PtOsfAQh,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-26T22:36:45.785+0000)

the loss of something is the loss is a better analogy than no loss at all. wouldn't you say? Now we are just arguing about how much it should matter. You are in the camp of "its just the a game". That is the camp that sympathizes with those that ruin other people's fun for their own amusement. Is that a good side to be on? It seems to be very popular until you compare it to anything real world.

That's interesting. I've always considered myself to be strongly opposed to those that ruin other people's fun - whether they're trolls or ragers. Thank you for correcting my misunderstanding of my own position!

On a more serious note, you're misrepresenting the argument, here. My entire point is that you've equated life-long grief with 30 minutes of frustration. As someone who's still grieving for a lost parent, I can tell you outright that there's no equivalence there. There's no comparison to be made. One of them changes who you are as a person, the other inconveniences you for a short time.

Someone waste an hour of your time. You make more than it cost to buy a small shake per hour at you job. If someone smacks the shake out your hand and you smack the shit of the guy who does it, no one is going to say its just a shake. Most everyone would say it serves him right. its only 2.50. Why is it so important. I don't think its that important.

Most people are going to say it's just a shake. Because it's just a shake, man. Seriously. It's 20-30 minutes of your time. It's not okay that it happens, but it's not that big a deal, either.

Yeah I know, you wouldn't do anything to that guy either.

Sure I would. I'd call him an asshole and go buy myself a new damn shake. And then move on with my life, because frankly, he isn't worth the stress. And neither are the trolls.

Occams RaiserApr 26, 20151 votes

My entire point is that you've equated life-long grief with 30 minutes of frustration. As someone who's still grieving for a lost parent,

I equated loss with loss. There is no need to for to discuss what level of loss is appropriate cause the dude before me said that speeding was the same as trolling. If there is no damage caused by the speeder there is nothing to report. Riot is the cop in this scenario. The state is not hurt by speeding and neither is anyone else. That is the actual point of my death statement. I can dial it back and say my dog but that doesn't really matter.

You are deciding for me how big of a deal it is. If you stood in from of the TV while someone was playing Madden, you would get your ass kicked. You can't universally tell everyone else how serious to take games of leisure. Don't screw with them and you never will find out how serious they take it.

Some people call they guy an asshole and some smack the shit out of him. Both of those are deserved punishments for his crime. Shooting him in the head is not. If you feel slapping the shit out of him is too harsh, thats cool. but neither of us is alone in how we feel things like that should be handled.

EL HAMSTERO thinks I want a pat on the back for snitching. I want to know that something is being done by those that created the environment and say they care about the players in it. Saying the problem is small and that its being taken care of is something villains say in movies.

EL HAMSTEROApr 27, 20151 votes

trolls only have as much effect on you as you let them have.

what are they actually doing? they are playing a video game in a way that you don't approve of. is that doing some great harm to you? in my opinion they should be able to play however they want to play.

there is a 50/50 chance you were going to lose the game anyway. its not some great wrong that there needs to be justice for. its some little kid trying to have some laughs while playing a video game.

Occams RaiserApr 27, 20151 votes

Remember what you said here the next time someone waste your time in real life. They are just living there life in a way you don't approve of. DMV after you lose your license. Why is she taking so long? is she talking to someone while I am standing right in front of her?

Guy at the store when you ask him where something is, he points where he thinks it is instead of taking you to see if its there. He is stock boy merely clerking in a way you don't approve of. Could he do it your way? Yes. Will he? 50\50. Will you get mad? Sometimes. if you are human.

Trolls have a demonstrable effect on you and an emotional one. Punishment is for the demonstrable one.

EL HAMSTEROApr 27, 20152 votes

your idea is that playing in a losing video game is a waste of time but a winning one is time well spent? they are both equally a waste of time. the only difference between winning and losing is in your mind.

some advice - find a way to have fun while losing.

Occams RaiserApr 27, 20151 votes

Wrong again. Recreational time is not a waste of time. The only people who consider it a waste are people who value some other waste of time over yours. I don't know how you see things so simplistically as to say being trolled by someone trying to ruin a good time is merely the same as losing.

If you go to party with lame music and few people, that party blows and you aren't having a good time. If that same thing happen but you found out someone pissed in the punchbowl. Shit just got worse. They aren't both just bad parties. One was lame and in one someone fucked with everyone there.

What is with all these simplification and false equivocations? Is just for the sake of being contrary?

EL HAMSTEROApr 27, 20152 votes

i don't have trouble still having fun in a trolled game. I have to think your attitude is wrong. but whatever - keep suffering and blaming kids for playing a video game in a way you don't like.

Occams RaiserApr 27, 20151 votes

Juvenile. Short sighted. Myopic. Judgmental. Illogical.

JubbinautApr 27, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Occams Raiser,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=PtOsfAQh,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-26T23:42:30.184+0000)

I equated loss with loss.

And I tried to offer a bit of perspective on the distinction. Somehow, you decided that my recognition that not all loss is equal made me a troll sympathizer. Which manages to completely avoid my point. So, good job there, I guess?

There is no need to for to discuss what level of loss is appropriate cause the dude before me said that speeding was the same as trolling. If there is no damage caused by the speeder there is nothing to report. Riot is the cop in this scenario. The state is not hurt by speeding and neither is anyone else. That is the actual point of my death statement. I can dial it back and say my dog but that doesn't really matter.

Sorry, man. Speed kills. Specifically, excessive speed is a factor in 1/3 of all fatal crashes. While it may not hurt people every time, it is a meaningful factor.

Which, actually, makes it a rather more appropriate comparison than I had originally thought. Not everyone is affected the same way by trolling behavior - some people laugh it off, some people play along. But it is a meaningful factor for many players.

You are deciding for me how big of a deal it is. If you stood in from of the TV while someone was playing Madden, you would get your ass kicked. You can't universally tell everyone else how serious to take games of leisure. Don't screw with them and you never will find out how serious they take it.

No, I'm stating that it's unreasonable to equate life-long grief with an hour of frustration. By the time variable alone it's unreasonable, and that doesn't factor how life-changing grief is, compared to the typically transient nature of frustration and anger.

And I'm not saying trolling isn't a big deal. I'm simply saying it's not that big a deal. You can take it all as serious as you like, but if it's unreasonable, I'm gonna call you on it.

Some people call they guy an asshole and some smack the shit out of him. Both of those are deserved punishments for his crime. Shooting him in the head is not. If you feel slapping the shit out of him is too harsh, thats cool. but neither of us is alone in how we feel things like that should be handled.

Minor things should be handled in minor ways. The difference is, my answer is "I'm going to snark off and then go replace what I lost, and move on with my life," while your answer is, "I'm going to force this guy to wear a brand stating what he did."

And, y'know, I can kinda get behind the whole "shaming" thing as a concept, but it seems to me that this is maybe not the most appropriate usage of that.

Occams RaiserApr 28, 20151 votes

I understand your standpoint I was just saying that as long as grant me the argument "loss of some kind is closer to analogy of loss than one of no loss." i concede it of course isn't the same as real world death. But it was a scaled analogy not a literal one to one.

If the trolling is no big deal, any thing I do to the troll as punishment IN GAME is also no big deal. The one caveat, it must be ethical to the environment the punishment exist in. If he feels shame for what he did, double good. But people should have as much protection from those that are out to get them as possible. If you don't want to be ostracized don't do things that will make that happen.

JubbinautApr 28, 20151 votes

Again, I didn't say that trolling is "no big deal." Actually, my exact words were "I'm not saying trolling isn't a big deal. I'm simply saying it's not that big a deal."

On the scale of "big deals" it ranks well below where you're indicating it does. But it's still on the scale, and I've never tried to indicate otherwise.

But you're still attempting to compare a life-long loss with a short time of frustration.

This is not unlike comparing the loss of a loved one to being forced to sit behind some jerk at a green light that won't stop texting long enough to go.

Or comparing the loss of your home with being stuck in the express line at the store, behind the guy who's got a million products, and wants to pay in pennies.

They're entirely different scales.

Occams RaiserApr 28, 20151 votes

We are past this argument. we both accept that trolls take something away from the game.

JubbinautApr 28, 20151 votes

A) I've agreed that trolls can take something away from the game. Not that they always do.

B) Your sense of proportion is still skewed, here.

C) As this argument was the entirety of my contribution to the larger discussion I stepped into, there's nothing further for me to say.

Occams RaiserApr 28, 20151 votes

right cause we agree.

EleshakaiApr 27, 20152 votes

When I report someone, the last thing I want is to be reminded of them ever again, even if it is to find out they were punished. I have reported them, and I have forgotten them, and I would just like to move on with life. I would not get any satisfaction out of being reminded of them.

Additionally, I think it is morally wrong for a company to release details of how someone's account was actioned - positive or negative - without their permission. I wouldn't want people to know if my account were rewarded for good behaviour or punished for bad behaviour. I would prefer if such things were kept private unless I chose to share the details.

Any company implementing such a system would only accomplish one thing: It would ensure I never reported anyone again, because I wouldn't want to hear the results.

(I also think that a company encouraging their community to engage in behaviour out of spite is not the way to encourage a positive community, but I am assuming that's not your concern so I won't use that as an argument)

Edit: I actually misread your suggestion, I thought it was just the typical 'let me know when I report someone who is punished' bs, but your suggestion is actually much worse... you are suggesting PUBLICALLY SHAMING anyone who is ever punished PERMANENTLY. Wow. I don't even know how to respond to that... all that would lead to is more abuse, this time directed AT that person, which would make them more frustrated, and probably lead to them being more abusive themselves as well.

Occams RaiserApr 27, 20151 votes

What would the point of their frustration be? Until they improved their rating and lost the brand, I nor anyone else would have to play with them if I didn't want to. I Know Riot would not do it but that is not because it wouldn't work. Shame is a source of punishment that parents even use. They say I am very disappointed in you instead of hitting their child. Jewish comics joke about shaming all the time.

Punishment for criminal offenders is public record in real life. I don't know why when it is a video game it becomes shaming. This is a disconnect I will never get. Even my punishment isn't forever. They can get their rating back over time or playing better in games. It would be just like it is now. When they take you off punishment the letter comes off. I am not showing your account info. And I am not doing it without your permission. You accept the agreement when you play the game. No one reads it but its there. You know you will be restricted for bad behavior.

What is the difference between the game and real life when it comes to being notified that someone is a bad guy?

EleshakaiApr 27, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Occams Raiser,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=PtOsfAQh,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-04-27T17:30:56.054+0000)

What would the point of their frustration be? Until they improved their rating and lost the brand, I nor anyone else would have to play with them if I didn't want to. I Know Riot would not do it but that is not because it wouldn't work. Shame is a source of punishment that parents even use. They say I am very disappointed in you instead of hitting their child. Jewish comics joke about shaming all the time.

Punishment for criminal offenders is public record in real life. I don't know why when it is a video game it becomes shaming. This is a disconnect I will never get. Even my punishment isn't forever. They can get their rating back over time or playing better in games. It would be just like it is now. When they take you off punishment the letter comes off. I am not showing your account info. And I am not doing it without your permission. You accept the agreement when you play the game. No one reads it but its there. You know you will be restricted for bad behavior.

What is the difference between the game and real life when it comes to being notified that someone is a bad guy?

Because we don't force a petty thief to carry a sign around for the next 6 weeks saying he stole a chocolate bar. Sure it's in their record, but a record is not ACTUALLY easily accessible by just anyone. Even a prospective employer needs your PERMISSION to do a criminal record check.

There is literally only one crime that requires someone to self-identify to everyone they meet: Child sexual abuse. Even murderers don't have to tell anyone anything. Are you equating toxicity in LoL with child sexual abuse?

Occams RaiserApr 28, 20151 votes

It is equivalent in scale to the reality that it exist in. It isn't literally the same. Nothing in game is literally 1 to 1 with anything in reality but that is not how we judge things. But if there were child molesters in LOL they would be trolls. And Trolling is equal to horse thieving in the old west not petty crime today.

EleshakaiApr 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Occams Raiser,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=PtOsfAQh,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-28T00:11:10.200+0000)

It is equivalent in scale to the reality that it exist in. It isn't literally the same. Nothing in game is literally 1 to 1 with anything in reality but that is not how we judge things. But if there were child molesters in LOL they would be trolls. And Trolling is equal to horse thieving in the old west not petty crime today.

No, the equivalent would be the people DDOSing the server and hacking peoples' accounts. ie. THE MOST SEVERE VIOLATION YOU CAN COMMIT.

Even in the scale of League of Legends, trolling is a relatively minor infraction. Which is why if you troll you have to go through a full scale of warnings and small punishments before you even receive a harsh punishment.

Occams RaiserApr 28, 20151 votes

I accept your hacking position. However your other argument is fallacious. In the real world the state assigns a high punishment to weed related crimes as though they are violent crimes. Most everyone knows these punishments are motivated by money and politics not its impact on society. The opposite is true for league and any other game where it is governed by those that make money off the people doing the crime. EA lets you get away with calling someone anything. You can probably do anything except get caught on a recording threatening someones life.

In League I don't really know what you have to do to be permabanned. Boosting and afk dropping to facilitate boosting doesn't seem to do it and that is actually making money off abusing everything in the system. But it doesn't cost them money. Just because the business doesn't consider it a bad offense doesn't mean it isn't extremely detrimental. Riot could have a very good community just by banning trolls from ranked and letting them play normals until they get their player score back up.

The cat has the keys to the bird cage. He is not going to tell me how to make the cage stronger.

Riot says Toxicity is at one percent. That is 270,000 people that are banned annually. Permabanned hopefully. 270,000 is on the low side.

JubbinautApr 28, 20151 votes

A short list of things I have seen permabans issued for:

Boosting.
Hacking.
Abusing Exploits.
Excessive toxicity (both verbal and non-verbal).
Charge-backs.
Excessive AFKing.
Account sharing.
Account selling.
Account buying.
Botting.
Scripting.

Occams RaiserApr 28, 20151 votes

Hmmm. Ok Maybe they wait til the end of the season to ban. I have seen accounts with over 30 games in a row that were afk botting. 0/30+/0 but still in game. 30 In a row! Ranked games.

Account sharing. Account selling. Account buying. Boosting.

These I totally believe. You can't take a pimp's money without tasting the pimp cane.

JubbinautApr 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Occams Raiser,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=PtOsfAQh,comment-id=00040000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-28T01:10:39.944+0000)

Hmmm. Ok Maybe they wait til the end of the season to ban. I have seen accounts with over 30 games in a row that were afk botting. 0/30+/0 but still in game. 30 In a row! Ranked games.

Escalated bans (for various forms of extreme/excessive toxicity, including intentional feeding) are issued every week or two. Most commonly, they're 2-week bans. Actually getting a permaban takes longer - usually a few cycles of being picked up by the escalated ban system.

On top of that, it's perfectly possible to wind up with a significant amount of leniency due to previous positive behavior - cases are built based on the ratio of reported games to total games played (though the specific threshold is unknown - it used to be 12-25%).

Botting, scripting, hacking, exploiting, boosting, and account issues are handled as their investigations are concluded.

But you're right. They could stand to be faster.

Which is why they're constantly trying to improve their systems to react more quickly (Riot's biggest concern with the Tribunal was that it was too slow, after all).

Occams RaiserApr 28, 20151 votes

It would be better if they spoke on it more. I still think if you can have an honorable banner you can have a dishonor banner as well.

EleshakaiApr 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Occams Raiser,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=PtOsfAQh,comment-id=000400000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-28T00:44:10.263+0000)

I accept your hacking position. However your other argument is fallacious. In the real world the state assigns a high punishment to weed related crimes as though they are violent crimes. Most everyone knows these punishments are motivated by money and politics not its impact on society. The opposite is true for league and any other game where it is governed by those that make money off the people doing the crime. EA lets you get away with calling someone anything. You can probably do anything except get caught on a recording threatening someones life.

In League I don't really know what you have to do to be permabanned. Boosting and afk dropping to facilitate boosting doesn't seem to do it and that is actually making money off abusing everything in the system. But it doesn't cost them money. Just because the business doesn't consider it a bad offense doesn't mean it isn't extremely detrimental. Riot could have a very good community just by banning trolls from ranked and letting them play normals until they get their player score back up.

The cat has the keys to the bird cage. He is not going to tell me how to make the cage stronger.

Riot says Toxicity is at one percent. That is 270,000 people that are banned annually. Permabanned hopefully. 270,000 is on the low side.

There has been no correlation between money spent and leniency ever proven...

Occams RaiserApr 28, 20151 votes

Oh no, that's not what I meant. Sorry if it looks like that. I Meant there is a universal lack of "give a shit" on the part of Riot. If you ask what Riot cares about and what a player cares about, assuming you get truthful answers, It won't be the same thing. But only one of us can ban people. Just because everyone who should be banned isn't getting banned does mean they shouldn't be as far as the player is concerned. Just like William Money said "Deserves got nothing to do with it".

driredeathApr 27, 20151 votes

I think they need a player rating system. At the end of every game you rate your team mates 1-10 anything below a 3 requires a report and 1 is only available if the person was afk. After 10 rounds those numbers are averaged and if you averaged lower then a 4 you can't play ranked until you improve your score playing normals bots or custom matches.

Occams RaiserApr 27, 20151 votes

I like it.

Occams RaiserApr 28, 20151 votes

-5. Lots of troll love. Though with a suspected 270,000 trolls, - 5 ain't bad. Trolls: good, punishing trolls in an effective way: bad. Why does everyone speak of toxicity? Everyone I talk to seems to think trolls are no big deal. Are they a scourge or aren't they?

Señor KarthusApr 28, 20151 votes

Agree with you. Just like with the honor ribbon in their profile and icons. We could use a capirote like in the medieval ages to publicly shame those bastards.

Occams RaiserApr 28, 20151 votes

I love the idea but lets not make it white. ; )