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Ok, explain this to me using actual logic

Unward49··4 votes·788 views

Explain this to me without using a strawman argument and without an argument from authority. I don't need to hear that because I admittedly like to flame people from time to time that my opinion is therefore automatically invalidated and I don't need to hear "because lord Rito decrees it to be so". I am fully aware of the truth of the statement that if I flame people I will probably be reported and if I get reported I will be chat restricted. I know this to be true.

But I ask you "how is it fair?"

How is it fair that other people are allowed to negatively impact my enjoyment of the game by being aggressively terrible YET I am not allowed to use any language befitting of my displeasure of their conduct on the basis that it MIGHT negatively impact THEIR enjoyment of the game.

And now, some context if I may.

I was jungling. At the end of the game in which I was jungling, I was something like, Oh, 6-3-10. Pretty damn good score line, not an increadibly greedy score either. I didn't build greedy either, because we had a Talon and a Rengar so i needed to be the tank, and I was and I was effective. Every possible chance that I could gift a kill I did so.

Long story short, we got stomped into mulch. Absolutely curb stomped because of a Tristana and Velkoz in the bot lane feeding Annie-Vayne like a shelter. Couldnt get a dragon cause no wards, couldn't gank cause no damage, eventually they outscaled my tankiness because Vayne bullshit, blah blah blah, you know how it goes.

Frustrating game in other words. You know what would really improve my personal enjoyment of that situation? To call the Tristana a fucking useless piece of noob ass feeding trash %%%%-cake. That would really really improve my enjoyment of the game. The very fact that I am not allowed to say that and risk being permanently banned from the game if I DO say that negatively impacts my enjoyment. There is nothing anybody can say or do to change that, it's very simple bio-chemistry. You can electro shock the gays straight, you can't make cathartic verbal abuse un-fun, you can't make restraining said catharsis any less frustrating. My only question is what makes Trist so much more important than me.

31 Comments

MisterHealYoGirl5 votes

Tristana's enjoyment of the game is just as important as your own. Therefore, harsh language and verbal harassment are not justified. Although Tristana is negatively impacting your game experience, it is not your prerogative or responsibility to punish her for doing so. Just as nothing makes Tristana more important than you, nothing makes you more important than Tristana; hurting her gameplay experience to improve your own is selfish and mean, and her negative impact on your own game does not change this. What if the behavior you chose to hurt her enjoyment while helping your own was running into her lane, taking all of her CS, and then spamming laugh? It's the same instinct, but this is obviously a toxic behavior.

THE RULE: Everyone in a game of League is entitled to a modicum of fun.

  1. Tristana is feeding, whether intentionally or not. You are not having fun; Tristana is breaking THE RULE.
  2. You could increase your enjoyment of the game by verbally harassing Tristana.
  3. This, however, is breaking THE RULE, since you'd be denying fun from Tristana.
  4. Verbally harassing Tristana is against THE RULE, and so should not be done.

THE RULE is not a stick. It is not discarded once broken. Just because someone else breaks THE RULE doesn't mean that you should do so, or that it is okay to do so. It is not your job to punish RULEbreakers, and, in fact, doing so is against THE RULE.

Logical enough for you?

Unward491 votes

{quoted}

THE RULE: Everyone in a game of League is entitled to a modicum of fun.

  1. Tristana is feeding, whether intentionally or not. You are not having fun; Tristana is breaking THE RULE.
  2. You could increase your enjoyment of the game by verbally harassing Tristana.
  3. This, however, is breaking THE RULE, since you'd be denying fun from Tristana.
  4. Verbally harassing Tristana is against THE RULE, and so should not be done.

THE RULE is not a stick. It is not discarded once broken. Just because someone else breaks THE RULE doesn't mean that you should do so, or that it is okay to do so. It is not your job to punish RULEbreakers, and, in fact, doing so is against THE RULE.

Logical enough for you?

Points for effort, but Trist has already negatively impacted my enjoyment so right off the bat you are actually arguing my point for me. You are flat out arguing that Trist's enjoyment is more important than mine. If she derives enjoyment FROM BEING TERRIBLE then I have no recourse at all. She is entitled to enjoyment and I am not, her enjoyment is more valuable than mine.

Thank you for further proving my point.

MisterHealYoGirl7 votes

That is not my argument. THE RULE is essentially that you shouldn't act to lower the amount of enjoyment that someone is having. Even though someone may be breaking THE RULE, that doesn't make it okay to break THE RULE to get back at them. If it was, which you are arguing, then your enjoyment would be MORE important then theirs, since your enjoyment supersedes THE RULE but theirs does not.

Also, have you considered the fact that Tristana may not have been doing this on purpose? Unless she was literally walking into their tower over and over, she may have been trying her level best. We all have bad games; maybe she was just learning ADC, or just learning Tristana?

Jubbinaut3 votes

And let's face it. It's not like there's very many people out there who enjoy getting their face metaphorically stomped in.

So it's pretty doubtful that Tristana was enjoying the game, anyway.

It's like a universal loss of enjoyment.

Centuros4 votes

Because it's easy to make a metric for banning people for saying mean and hateful things. On the other hand, it is quite possible that your bot lane was just having a bad game and/or got outplayed and snowballed on and was not actually a "fucking useless piece of noob ass feeding trash cunt-cake"

In the future, feel free to type it out in another screen, yell it out loud if you're alone, etc. There's no reason to hurt somebody else to get your catharsis.

nerak234 votes

What I am asking is why other people's enjoyment of the game is more important than mine, and what I am not hearing is any logical argument to justify that position.

Because that is Not how life works or this game. Just because you feel the need to say nasty things to people when they are having a bad game doesn't mean it is alright to do it. The game has 9 other people besides you and chances are some or most are going to be More bothered by your comments then someone having a sub-par game.

Unward491 votes

{quoted}

Because that is Not how life works or this game. Just because you feel the need to say nasty things to people when they are having a bad game doesn't mean it is alright to do it. The game has 9 other people besides you and chances are some or most are going to be More bothered by your comments then someone having a sub-par game.

Sounds a bit like a naturalistic fallacy to me.

Sounds EXACTLY like a naturalistic fallacy in fact.

Decrit3 votes

Is it fair because, wathever they did for any reason, you have aggravated it with your own attitude for the other players. Not only tris, or vel kroz.

Plus, is not their fault if you are feeling like that: they have fed and played bad, alright, but you are the one that gets carried in that way for a game. Insulting them does not alleviate nor change the fact, only drags other people to your own misery.

Do you want to insult them? Say it, but don' t write it.

AMYS GRAVE3 votes

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/loaded-question

Built into your question is the assumption they aren't punished.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/composition-division

You also assume that all negative behavior should be punished equally regardless of intent or extent, and this is not true.

Unward491 votes

{quoted}

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/loaded-question

Built into your question is the assumption they aren't punished.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/composition-division

You also assume that all negative behavior should be punished equally regardless of intent or extent, and this is not true.

I suppose that's true, if they are punished for being bad then that would at least be fair. It would be stupid, but it would be fair in the strict sense of achieving balance.

The fact is however, I know this to not be the case, because if everyone who was ever reported for being bad was banned then nobody would be left to play the game.

And for the record, I'm not advocating more punishments, I don't give a flying fuck what happens to someone after they're out of my game, all I want is the right to call them a fucking useless piece of godsdamned ass fungus while they are in my game. That's all I want.

AMYS GRAVE3 votes

all I want is the right to call them a fucking useless piece of godsdamned ass fungus while they are in my game. That's all I want.

You don't get to verbally harass people because you want to.

http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/get-started/summoners-code/

Encourage players who are having trouble

This doesn't mean that we're okay with you ruining anybody else's day.

Never get frustrated by an inexperienced player's performance.

You agreed to this when you started the game. If you disagree with the rules then the question becomes why did you agree to them?

Jubbinaut4 votes

{quoted}

I suppose that's true, if they are punished for being bad then that would at least be fair. It would be stupid, but it would be fair in the strict sense of achieving balance.

But they do! Not the same type of punishment, but that's appropriate, right? I don't see a disconnect in trying to fit the punishment to the behavior.

See, players who are bad tend to lose more games than others with greater skill. Losing games means they lose MMR. Losing MMR means they get matched with worse players.

So "being bad" is punished by being forced to play with other bad players. Quite a fitting punishment!

Eleshakai3 votes

"I would have a whole lot more fun playing basketball if I were allowed to just hold the ball and run to the net, why can't I do that?"

The rules say so.

"I would have a whole lot more fun playing LoL if I could just badmouth whoever I wanted. Why can't I?"

The rules say so.

LaceUp232 votes

Because you can stop them from doing it. They, on the other hand, cannot hit a magical button that makes all the "toxic" go away.

Oh wait.

Sona Ping2 votes

Because when something is "not allowed" everybody is not allowed to do that. And "everybody" includes you.

Protests of "I had a good reason though!" or "But I'm really upset about it" are completely irrelevant and are arguments/reasons that are, in fact, illogical.

Unward491 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=PFV76iE5,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-09-02T22:16:32.812+0000)

Because when something is "not allowed" everybody is not allowed to do that. And "everybody" includes you.

That is the definition of an argument from authority. Come back when you learn how to logic.

And now to Decrit's point:

Of course playing bad happens. This is a video game. On the internet. I'm not advocating that people stop playing badly. If I'm advocating anything it's that we should be free to not only tell people they are playing badly, but given that Riot put in all these mute buttons and profanity filters, we should be free to choose the words we use to do it with.

What I am arguing, is that I am being jailed for a crime that, if it is a crime at all and I would first argue that it is NOT, then I am just as much the victim of said crime as the people who are convicting me of it. I am arguing that 90% of chat restrictions are the league equivalent of political prisoners.

Sona Ping3 votes

No, it's not. It's a given.

Also, it's something you agreed to.

Jubbinaut3 votes

{quoted}

That is the definition of an argument from authority. Come back when you learn how to logic.

It occurs to me that you engage in two fallacies here. Your second sentence is argumentum ad hominem. While the fallacy doesn't specifically relate to your argument, it's still pretty poor taste.

Your first sentence is a Fallacy of Ambiguity. Specifically, you're using the two alternate definitions of the word "authority" to create an apparent fallacy where there is none.

An Appeal to Authority Fallacy occurs when one claims that because an authority made a claim, that claim must be accepted. In this context, the word authority uses definition 1.a.2 from Merriam-Webster - listed contextually here: "a (1): a citation (as from a book or file) used in defense or support (2): the source from which the citation is drawn." Indeed, this paragraph may be considered an Appeal to Authority - though that would be dismissing expert opinion, which is unreasonable in itself.

However, when referring to Riot's position as an authority, here, we're using definition 3 (from the same source): "3. a: persons in command; b: a governmental agency or corporation to administer a revenue-producing public enterprise." Pointing out that a ruling body has utilized that command is not an Appeal to Authority fallacy - it's stating a fact.

Also, since I'm typing all this mess anyway, I thought perhaps I'd weigh in on the matter.

Here's the distinction:

You made an agreement on creating your account (and every patch since then) to abide by the Code of Conduct and Summoner's Code - which you broke. It is the breaking of this agreement that warranted sanction.

They, however, did not make any agreement to play at any particular level of skill - and therefore have broken no agreement. Since they have not broken any agreement, they have not warranted sanction.

nerak232 votes

And for the record, I'm not advocating more punishments, I don't give a flying fuck what happens to someone after they're out of my game, all I want is the right to call them a fucking useless piece of godsdamned ass fungus while they are in my game. That's all I want.

And for the record, I am advocating that saying the above should and is punishable ! And for the record it isn't a realistic delusion ( naturalistic fallacy ) at all ! It is the Rules like it or not.

powerbats2 votes

Ok let me stop your logical fallacies and built in auto fail replies right here. Riot says you can't do so, you agreed when clicking yes on the TOS/EULA when installing the game not to be a jerk. You can try all the Straw Mans, logical fallacies, and Red Herrings all you want. It doesn't change the fact that you're not entitled to be a jerk under any circumstances.

From **Riot Lyte **on the matter in the old TBI forums.

What's the point of having a language filter if I can get banned for 'adult' language? We aren't out to punish players who use adult language; in fact, very few players are ever banned for saying stuff like "f***, I missed that skill shot" or "damn, fing close game!" However, the language filter is not an excuse to verbally abuse someone in the game. When you verbally abuse or harass someone by calling them "fing *****" or "ngger noob", that's when you've crossed the line and will be punished by the Tribunal. I've said this before and I'll say it again, we aren't trying to clean online games of adult language; we're trying to reform or get rid of jerks who like to verbally abuse and harass other players.

Why is verbal abuse punishable if there is a mute button/language filter? Players shouldn’t need to rely on features like the mute button or language filter to engage with other players in positive ways. When a player verbally abuses another player and forces him to use the mute button, they have already created a negative experience for that player.

From the TOS

V. CODE OF CONDUCT While using any of the Properties, you agree to comply with all applicable laws, rules and regulations. You also agree to comply with certain additional rules that govern your use of the Properties (the "Code of Conduct"). The Code of Conduct is not meant to be exhaustive, and Riot Games reserves the right to modify this Code of Conduct at any time, as well as take appropriate disciplinary measures including Account termination and deletion to protect the integrity and spirit of the Properties, regardless of whether a specific behavior is listed here as prohibited. In addition to this Code of Conduct, please see the Summoner’s Code for additional guidance on exemplary game-play behavior. The following are examples of behavior that warrant disciplinary measures:

C. Harassing, stalking, or threatening any other users in the Game;

E. Transmitting or communicating any content which, in the sole and exclusive discretion of Riot Games, is deemed offensive, including, but not limited to, language that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, sexually explicit, or racially, ethnically, or otherwise objectionable;

You can try and argue and weasel all you want it doesn't change the fact that you're not allowed to be a jerk to others, neither riot nor the vast majority of the community cares for your arguments or your behavior. You either behave or riot will punish you however they deem fit. You agreed to this when you installed the game and after each patch.

If you don't want to behave then you've got 2 options.

  1. Uninstall and never come back.

  2. Riot will keep punishing you until they simply perma ban you.

If you want to keep your account then you've got 2 options.

  1. Behave and don't be a jerk towards others.

  2. Disable your chat for each and every game until you learn some self control.

Unward491 votes

Actually, here's the thing, they CAN do that. It's called the FUCKING MUTE BUTTON.

Decrit4 votes

so gimmie this straight: is up to them mute you because you are insulting them?

Unward491 votes

{quoted}

so gimmie this straight: is up to them mute you because you are insulting them?

No, what I mean is, they have the option to mute me if they like, I do not have the option to play well for them. They have recourse, I do not. Why should I feel the need to self censor when they can simply mute me if they want to? Why do I get punished anyway for choosing to vent my frustrations in text, which lets be honest here, is about as healthy a way as there IS to vent frustrations. They don't need to read it, they can mute me. Why must I EVEN THEN be forced to not actually type it at all?

Decrit6 votes

because muting does not solve the problem: it does ease the problem ( only after you made their experience already horrible) by working against the game, since it denies communication on a team game. For this reason muting is not an excuse.

About the typing thing: you are not forced to type, so why you should be forced to rage?

Unward491 votes

{quoted}

About the typing thing: you are not forced to type, so why you should be forced to rage?

No, no I choose to type, the same way that you might choose to flash or ult or spam laugh. What I communicate to my team has an impact on my own enjoyment of the game, whether or not they choose to listen to it. Just as I choose to type things, others can choose to ignore it or respond to it. That is a choice that you have in the game. How somebody plays their champion is NOT a choice that can be made and it is something that I as a player only have the very very minutest impact upon. And the very fact that "flame your shitty ally into a quivering pile of useless" is a fall back move that the summoners code prohibits negatively impacts my enjoyment of the game.

These are facts. I am stating truths.

What I am asking is why other people's enjoyment of the game is more important than mine, and what I am not hearing is any logical argument to justify that position.

Decrit3 votes

What I am asking is why other people's enjoyment of the game is more important than mine, and what I am not hearing is any logical argument to justify that position.

by this logic you can commit a crime and say "why do you want to jail me? do you care less about me?". Thing is: if you do that, you are somehow part of the problem. Playing bad happens, and is a player' s will is to improve, but if you are being aggressive to the other players then that is an attitude that is part of a big problem, and that needs to be issued. Reports and bans/restrictions are one of those.

Unward491 votes

Ok, here's another point I'd like to mention, while we're on the topic (no logic as yet appearing btw).

Why is it acceptable that the theoretical trist COULD BE HURT by the tiny words appearing at the bottom of the screen describing in agonizing detail just how bad she is at this videogame, yet in the same breath, I'm not allowed to care enough about the outcome of said game for it to be worth my having typed them in the first place.

Yeah

Lets logic that one up too League community.

nerak231 votes

Logical enough for you?

It is to me ;)

Unward491 votes

So.

No new information then.

"Lord Rito decries it and thus shall it be" is your answer.

Eleshakai3 votes

{quoted}

So.

No new information then.

"Lord Rito decries it and thus shall it be" is your answer.

It's their game. They get to make the rules. We get to follow them, or find a different game.

powerbats2 votes

{quoted}

So.

No new information then.

"Lord Rito decries it and thus shall it be" is your answer.

Translation: You've run out of logical fallacies, Straw Mans and Red Herrings to use and are now stating you knew you were in the wrong the whole time but your ego won't allow you to admit that.

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