Is it intended that Zed's counter causes you to die anyway?

PubgamerAU·Apr 15, 2015·1 votes·820 views

I understand that Zhonya's is Zeds 'biggest counter', however I'm kind of concerned that the mere use of a Zhonya's in any situation that doesn't involve your team already winning, just means you're going to die 2.5 seconds later.

I think Zhonya's needs to be changed from 'stasis' to the same kind of active as Mercurial. Forcing your character to be unable to take any action for 2.5s just puts you out of position and does nothing but delay your death by 2.5s.

30 Comments

Colgate GatorApr 15, 20156 votes

You do understand that the whole point of Zonhya's stasis is to negate his whole ultimate, right? I don't get what you're going on about.

Zed's death mark lasts for 3 seconds, just activate the zonhya half a second after that and the bomb will go off without doing any damage, hell, you can even miss the timing, and since the ult's damage is based in how much he does while you have it, the bomb will go off and do minimal damage.

Zonhya is already so powerful at the moment, what you're suggesting is outright breaking the item, talk about counterplay. If you were caught out of position when Zed ulted you, then that isn't the item's fault, but yours.

PubgamerAUApr 15, 20151 votes

I don't think you read my post =\

Give it a proper read, then let me know your thoughts, because all you've really done is tell me "Zhonya's counters Zed" and my entire post is explaining why it ends up with you dead anyway.

It's not just about being caught out of position. There is no 'out of position' against a Zed. He just uses his 2 gap closers to get on top of you and nuke you. If you use Zhonya's, you're just gonna pop like a balloon the second you come out of it, due to his entire team surrounding you.

DaenApr 15, 20153 votes

If you use Zhonya's, you're just gonna pop like a balloon the second you come out of it, due to his entire team surrounding you.

I think the point here is that Zed is an assassin. If he has to use both gap closers to get on top of you and nuke you, you should be with your team rather than in the center of theirs.

PubgamerAUApr 15, 20151 votes

You are with your team. Unfortunately Zed didn't gap close until his team started a fight, and they're all busy with the enemy front line / peeling for the ADC.

KazaashiApr 15, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I don't think you read my post =\

Give it a proper read, then let me know your thoughts, because all you've really done is tell me "Zhonya's counters Zed" and my entire post is explaining why it ends up with you dead anyway.

He is stating how Zhonya's counter's Zed so that he can't blow you up and put you in the situation described in the OP. If the Zed is so fed that he can blow you up with just Q and E, you have a WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY bigger problem than the Zhonya's active immobilizing you.

Are you going to argue that a Fidd Ult +Zhonya's won't turn a fight around? How about a Morg ult + Zhonya's?

PubgamerAUApr 15, 20151 votes

My entire post was how the counter to zed is counter-productive, often ending in your death anyway, just 2.5s delayed. I'm not talking about the viability of Zhonya's as an item in general, just as a counter to Zed.

AbiwonKenabiApr 15, 20151 votes

I don't think you read HIS post.

He explains how in a 1v1 midlane situation, Zhonya's can completely shut down Zed's Death Mark damage and he shouldn't just be nuking you without Death Mark. If he is, you have worse problems; Either Zed is extremely fed or you are so out of position in the first place that the enemy team was already surrounding you, which shouldn't happen assuming you are playing a squishy AP midlaner.

Zhonya's allows you to block most of Zed's damage if he ults you. That makes you a less desirable target for Zed in the first place. In a straight up teamfight, your team should be close enough to you to make your stasis not matter, and essentially keep you in position. If you are in a 1v1 situation, you are probably just going to flat out win because Zed can't use his ult on you effectively.

Zhonya's not only gimps Zed's ult but it also allows for your cool downs to come back up, meaning you can get off a spell rotation, Zhonya's, then get off another spell rotation. Some Champions can even use Zhonya's to cover the fact that they have to be in the middle of a fight to deal damage, but are squishy (Fiddle, Morg, Lissandra to some extent).

PubgamerAUApr 15, 20151 votes

This game isn't about 1v1, nor am I specifically focusing on 1v1.

Changing Zhonya's to a Mercurial type cleanse would still allow you to outplay Zed's ult, without fucking your position.

KazaashiApr 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

This game isn't about 1v1, nor am I specifically focusing on 1v1.

Changing Zhonya's to a Mercurial type cleanse would still allow you to outplay Zed's ult, without fucking your position.

Mercurial also cleanses the Death Mark Debuff, so that is also an option.

A lot of the time, Zhonya's isn't there to save you, its to waste the enemies time and distract them.

Look at AbiwonKenabi's post. That is a very good explaination.

PubgamerAUApr 15, 20151 votes

Yep, and I love Mercurial! It allows you to counter play Zed, while still leaving you free to avoid getting anally pumped 2.5s later.

A lot of the time, Zhonya's isn't there to save you, its to waste the enemies time and distract them.

This here is the main issue that I'm trying to fix with this post. Zhonya's just isn't effective enough. Most of the time, all it does is delay your death by 2.5s. If it were changed to a cleanse active, a few things would happen.

You would solidify the options for all champions. AP gets a Zhonya's, AD gets a mercurial. Both have the same active to perform the same role.
You would force Zed's to re-evaluate jumping in on a carry if that carry is able to get rid of his death mark WHILE attacking Zed and moving.
Other low range mage's would be funnelled into building more tanky, making other mages who don't have to be more viable in a competitive scene.

KazaashiApr 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yep, and I love Mercurial! It allows you to counter play Zed, while still leaving you free to avoid getting anally pumped 2.5s later.

This here is the main issue that I'm trying to fix with this post. Zhonya's just isn't effective enough. Most of the time, all it does is delay your death by 2.5s. If it were changed to a cleanse active, a few things would happen.

You would solidify the options for all champions. AP gets a Zhonya's, AD gets a mercurial. Both have the same active to perform the same role.

You would force Zed's to re-evaluate jumping in on a carry if that carry is able to get rid of his death mark WHILE attacking Zed and moving.

Other low range mage's would be funnelled into building more tanky, making other mages who don't have to be more viable in a competitive scene.

I honestly feel that you just aren't looking at Zhonya's correctly. All the scenario's you mention if failing in, I can see it shining in, if used correctly and a lot of other factors are taking into consideration.

I think it would be bad if AP and AD has similar itemization's. That would lower counterplay because build AP and AD are designed to do different things and scale off different items/stats.
I think that the Zed would feel infinitely free to jump the back line, because he know's his ult cannot be entirely avoided by a well timed Zhonya's.
It would actually make them FAAAAAR worse in my opinion, but this one is VERY subjective and could be a forum post on its own.

PubgamerAUApr 15, 20151 votes

Your first point is irrelevant. They are already similar in stats. Zhonya's is one of the 120ap items just like Mercurial is one of the 80ad items. The stats on the item wouldn't change. Zhonya's would still be AP. Mercurial would still be AD. They both are bought for almost the exact same reason, Zhonya's is just usable more aggressively. I actually think this is bad, since both are intended to be filling the same role.

Your second point is also irrelevant, because changing Zhonya's from a stasis to a mercurial type cleanse means you're still able to counterplay his ult(cleansing it off) but allowing you to freely move and attack, ie kite, the Zed.

I don't think it would make the other champions better or worse. They would just have to build tankier items like Abyssal/ROA/Rylai's, etc.

KazaashiApr 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Your first point is irrelevant. They are already similar in stats. Zhonya's is one of the 120ap items just like Mercurial is one of the 80ad items. The stats on the item wouldn't change. Zhonya's would still be AP. Mercurial would still be AD. They both are bought for almost the exact same reason, Zhonya's is just usable more aggressively. I actually think this is bad, since both are intended to be filling the same role.

They are not filling the same role, and that is one of your mistakes.

Your second point is also irrelevant, because changing Zhonya's from a stasis to a mercurial type cleanse means you're still able to counterplay his ult(cleansing it off) but allowing you to freely move and attack, ie kite, the Zed.

If you are in stasis when his ult Pops, IT DOES 0 DMG, and you had at least 2 seconds of invulnerability before, which also means you avoided a lot of other dmg that he deals. Zhonya's does more than just cleanse his ult off. Also, the MR is wasted against him. Zhonya's has armor, meaning you'll take less poke dmg.

I don't think it would make the other champions better or worse. They would just have to build tankier items like Abyssal/ROA/Rylai's, etc.

So, you want all mages to have to be tanky to do anything. That is not diversity or fun.

PubgamerAUApr 16, 20151 votes

Yes they do fill the same role, as a defensive item for an offensive carry. They both serve the same role in the fact they are bought to counter champions, often specific champions(ie. an ADC will get mercurial to also counter Zed)
By changing Zhonya's to a cleanse active, it leaves you free to move and attack. The whole time gaining health from lifesteal, bringing zed lower, kiting his damage, etc. 2.5s of invulnerability isn't the only way to prevent damage being applied to yourself.
Not all mages are short range. Not all mages have to build tanky. Not all mages buy Zhonya's.

AbiwonKenabiApr 15, 20152 votes

This game isn't ALL about 1v1. But if you are against Zed, you are in a SOLO lane. Zed is also an excellent split pusher, and it's much more desirable to only send one ally to deal with him, so you don't get jumped on by the other 4 members of Zed's team.

This game is not about 1v1s, but there are certainly instances where it is only one champion versus one other.

As for changing it to a cleanse, that only makes it useful vs Zed. If I'm Fiddlesticks, and I ult into the enemy team, but now, whoops, my Zhonya's only cleanses, isn't that something? Guess I'm dead before my whole ult can even channel. I'm Lissandra and I dive into a team to ult their ADC because I don't have to ult myself, I have Zhonya's....wait no I don't, I have a crummy cleanse that USED to be Zhonya's. Oh hey I'm Lux, I have long Cool downs, and if I get jumped on before I get them back, I'm fucked. Oh hey I have this temporary stasis I can use to wait until my CDs come back up and potentially have a chance, or if nothing else waste the enemy's time, possibly buying time for my team to get here. Or not, I can just cleanse a single spell that won't help me from getting blown up.

You are proposing a change and you aren't seeing the bigger picture here. Zhonya's, yes, can screw you if you don't use it properly, but it's also an item that enables a lot of Champions to even be played in the first place. It diversifies picks, and here you are proposing that it should specialize in countering Zed only. If you aren't skilled enough to use it effectively, get in line, practice until you are, like the rest of us do.

On top of that, we already have items that cleanse. Your support should be buying Mikael's vs Zed, and that way, ANYBODY can make use of its cleanse.

PubgamerAUApr 15, 20151 votes

All you're really doing is complaining that some champions would have to change their builds instead of building glass cannon. Honestly, I'm not that upset that short range mages would have to build a bit tankier instead of just getting a zhonya's and rushing max AP.

However, my goal here isn't to provide a balance across the board. It's to make playing against a Zed a little bit less frustrating. Zed right now is very strong. He's picked in over half of LCS games in EU, has a win rate of 70% across the board(which puts him #3 for all champions who have been played in more than 5 games, #4 for NA), and is honestly one of the most frustrating champions to play against.

By changing the type of active on Zhonya's and lowering it's cd a little bit, you provide more counterplay to zed, so you don't have to nerf the champion directly. Other champions are indirectly nerfed, but I feel that most of them that would actually commonly use a zhonya's(outside of countering a champion) should be building tanky anyway, instead of relying on the active.

ps. Suggesting anyone other than yourself take any kind of action is defeating the purpose of ranked: to improve your own gameplay and not rely on someone else to carry you out.

AbiwonKenabiApr 15, 20151 votes

Wow, you completely missed my last point. My point was that you are suggesting a change to an item. That item being changed in that particular way would force Riot to rebalance easily half the AP mid roster (I didn't even mention the likes of Heimerdinger, is he gonna build tanky? Lux, is she a short-range mage? Veigar? What about Cass?). And what do you get out of all that work? A nice counter to ONE champion. The cost DOES NOT equal the benefit. The cost of rebalancing a significant number of champions is not worth having a fancy counter to Zed. Which Zhonya's already is. If you just learn to utilize Zhonya's better, then you wouldn't NEED the cleanse item, instead you are left with a much more versatile active that is ALSO a way to counter Zed's ultimate.

Also, don't use LCS statistics to justify your answer. Yes, the pros can provide a good indication of what is strong and what's not, but they are also more skilled and coordinated than the average playerbase of Silver-ranked people in solo queue.

Lastly, you HAVE to rely on your team sometimes. You said so yourself, this game is not about 1v1s. You are never going to win if you don't rely on your teammates somewhat. Mikael's is a good support item your support should be buying anyways. And should only be a backup to YOUR ZHONYA'S. Stop trying to hard carry, or if you want to continue doing so, learn how to play against Zed better. He's annoying, sure, but he's not unbeatable.

PubgamerAUApr 15, 20151 votes

Heimer would build tankier if he wanted to kite around his turrets. Lux is a long range, she could easily build more glass cannon. Zhonya's would still act to counter a lot of the problems squishy champions face(CC).

Being more skilled is irrelevant to how powerful a champion is. Pros are 'more skilled' at practically all the champions. The fact is, they choose Zed because he's stronger than almost every other choice.

Yes, a good support getting a good item is great. My point is, you can't rely on someone else to get an item to counter a champion you're playing against, FOR you. If the biggest answer to Zed and the Zhonya's problem is "Get a good support", there's a fundamental issue here which indicates that maybe Zed is a little too powerful.

I'm not suggesting Zed is unbeatable. That would be silly. I'm suggesting that he's frustrating to play against, for anyone.

ps. I would also like to reply to something from your initial post that I missed earlier. "As for changing it to a cleanse, that only makes it useful vs Zed.". No, Zhonya's would then be useful against MANY other champions, because it would also counter CC. Warwick ult'ing you as an AP champion? Can't use Zhonya's because you're currently CC'd? Yay, the new Zhonya's now works against CC.

BerserkGoldfishApr 15, 20153 votes

that's what being out of position is. im fairly certain already being surrounded by his team is out of position, unless youre like sejuani.

PubgamerAUApr 15, 20151 votes

You're surrounded after you enter Zhonya's stasis. Beforehand you're not.

ıronApr 15, 20153 votes

"I think Zhonya's needs to be changed from 'stasis' to the same kind of active as Mercurial. "

That's a huge nerf. Zhonya is extremely powerful. Learn to use it properly.

PubgamerAUApr 15, 20151 votes

Reduce the cd to make up for the lack of 2.5s invuln.

Colgate GatorApr 15, 20152 votes

If you're factoring the enemy team, then you aren't talking just about Zonhya and Zed.

You should consider your team in the situation as well, as they shouldn't leave you behind when the stasis ends, if you're playing a squishy mage (which I assume you are if we're talking about Zonhya) then stand in the backline.

If Zed really tries to use all his gapclosers to murder you, he should fail and die to your team while you Zonhya, worst case scenario he R's out of there but since you're at the backline the enemy team shouldn't be able to pick you off just like that.

PubgamerAUApr 15, 20151 votes

You should consider your team in the situation as well, as they shouldn't leave you behind when the stasis ends

Unfortunately, teams very often can and do leave you behind.

ZombiemasterApr 15, 20151 votes

You're surrounded after you enter Zhonya's stasis. Beforehand you're not.

Unfortunately, teams very often can and do leave you behind.

Considering that the champions who use Zhonya's are typically squishy mages, you should be in the middle of your own team, not the enemy team. So if you use Zhonya's to negate Zed's ult, but then his entire team surrounds you, then you were way out of position to begin with. Which means that your positioning is the bigger problem, not Zhonya's

However, if you use Zhonya's during a team fight while you're in the middle of your own team, then Zed won't be able to to just stay there and wait while the stasis effect is over because then he will be destroyed by your team. If your team leaves you behind like you say, then that's a problem with your team, not Zhonya's.

PubgamerAUApr 15, 20151 votes

Ok here's a scenario:

Teamfight breaks out. Your front line and the enemy front line battle it out to see who can break through to the back line first. Meanwhile, Zed W's in, then ults on top of you. Your front line is busy fighting their front line. If your front line break off and try to help you, the enemy front line wins and they're able to win the teamfight. If your front line don't break off to help you, you're fucked because as soon as you Zhonya's, the enemy is gonna ignore your front line and fuck you in the ass the moment you come out of stasis, unless you're half a screen away from the fight, in which case zed will literally just wait and pop you himself when you come out.

ZombiemasterApr 15, 20151 votes

If your front line break off and try to help you, the enemy front line wins and they're able to win the teamfight.

Just because your front line breaks off to help you doesn't necessarily mean that the enemy team will now win the team fight. Your front line is protecting you from dying to Zed instantly, which means that you will be able to contribute to the team fight, and it is entirely possible to do this while also protecting you from the enemy front line.

You can have one person peel Zed off of you (many supports can do this quite well, such as Janna, Leona, or Alistar) while another teammate holds back the enemy front line (champions like Nautilus, Maokai, and Gragas are very good at this).

If your front line don't break off to help you, you're fucked because as soon as you Zhonya's, the enemy is gonna ignore your front line and fuck you in the ass the moment you come out of stasis

If the enemy front line ignores your team's front line to go straight for you, then what the fuck is your front line even doing? If this is happening, then it's not really a problem with Zhonya's, but rather a problem with how your team is playing.