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Division Promo NEED a Rework

Happy Jack··3 votes·587 views

The concept is solid. "Gating" players as they progress through a tier makes sense. A sense of achievement earned through completing a goal / Promo Series adds value to the ranked system.

But the current version of the Division Series is more frustration than fun, and the game is supposed to be fun.

  • Currently we are heavily handicapped in a Series. Lose the Series = Losing LP AND climbing again ..vs.. Win the Series = Start at 0 LP. It's punitive to assign normal LP reduction for games lost in lost Series, but not award LP gains on games won in a Series win.

  • Too many Division Series. The above stated issue is compounded by 4 Divisions.

  • The above 2 points are exasperated additionally by the Series requiring either 100% or 66% win-rate to overcome, which is an extremely abnormal win percentage.

  • Too easy slip from a Division already earned. I understand there is a grace period right after winning... but after the "grace" you can easily slip. Lose a single game at 0 LP, and be demoted to 75 LP in lower Division. The player now has to win FOUR (4) games to get back into the Division. This is beyond frustrating considering the already mentioned points. Instead the player should go back into a Series, Demo Series.

Fix this.

12 Comments

Grashnim1 votes

Would a change in the system but giving you the same results make you happier? Cause honestly, if it's that way for EVERYONE, I'm not sure the change is really anything but an aesthetic.

Happy Jack2 votes

{quoted}

Would a change in the system but giving you the same results make you happier? Cause honestly, if it's that way for EVERYONE, I'm not sure the change is really anything but an aesthetic.

So just because something is frustrating for EVERYONE, means it's a good system? Logic.

Did you read? 3 of the 4 points have adjustments spelled out.

Grashnim1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Happy Jack,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=IId7ZB5J,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-10-20T19:27:16.685+0000)

So just because something is frustrating for EVERYONE, means it's a good system? Logic.

Did you read? 3 of the 4 points have adjustments spelled out.

Yes, I did. As I said, when everyone suffers the same system, I'm not sure a change in it is anything but aesthetic. I climbed from Bronze to Platinum this season. If anything is broken, it's the promos. Once you get a high ranking, you'll always place high in promos no matter the situation. Even when Riot claims they've done "soft resets".

Did you read your points? "Too easy slip from a Division already earned. I understand there is a grace period right after winning... but after the "grace" you can easily slip. Lose a single game at 0 LP, and be demoted to 75 LP in lower Division." So is it you lose a single game at 0 LP and get demoted or is it you have a grace period to lose some games?

Happy Jack1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, I did. As I said, when everyone suffers the same system, I'm not sure a change in it is anything but aesthetic. I climbed from Bronze to Platinum this season. If anything is broken, it's the promos. Once you get a high ranking, you'll always place high in promos no matter the situation. Even when Riot claims they've done "soft resets".

Did you read your points? "Too easy slip from a Division already earned. I understand there is a grace period right after winning... but after the "grace" you can easily slip. Lose a single game at 0 LP, and be demoted to 75 LP in lower Division." So is it you lose a single game at 0 LP and get demoted or is it you have a grace period to lose some games?

To your first point: Same story here, Silver 4 to Plat 1. A change is not 'just aesthetic' if it is actually felt. Changes would not be intended to make the climb easier, but less frustrating.

Second, I'll clarify. Win a Div Series and you're at 0 LP with a Riot built in grace period of 2-3 games where a player won't be demoted. After that period is expired, a player can be demoted.

A better system would be 1) remove the grace system 2) add LP gains for games won in the series 3) implement a Demo Series.

Happy Jack1 votes

I also think the current system IS better than previous elo ratings...

Sythriel Draken1 votes

i heard that they are removing the series in the next season because right now, as you stated, series aren't a sense of accomplishment, but more of a sense of, "i survived the afkers, ragers and trolls". I've gone to getting back to (currently) silver 4, about 5 times now due to carrying games, then getting to my series only to come up against someone who had paid someone to do an MMR boost to their account, an afker, a 3rd party scripter,etc. and then not only lose the series, but then go on a streak of losing.

I agree, the system right now is NOT fair.

Happy Jack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sythriel Draken,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=IId7ZB5J,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-10-20T19:48:06.084+0000)

i heard that they are removing the series in the next season because right now, as you stated, series aren't a sense of accomplishment, but more of a sense of, "i survived the afkers, ragers and trolls". I've gone to getting back to (currently) silver 4, about 5 times now due to carrying games, then getting to my series only to come up against someone who had paid someone to do an MMR boost to their account, an afker, a 3rd party scripter,etc. and then not only lose the series, but then go on a streak of losing.

I agree, the system right now is NOT fair.

I agree with your sentiment, but I actually think the system is "fair" if played out over enough games/time, but it's unnecessarily frustrating.

I would estimate I've been in 30(ish) Series. For Plat 1 alone I was in 9ish. Which I'm fine with, because Plat 1 may be my elo peak until I improve.

So it may be "fair" over an extrapolated sample size, but not exactly fun. It could be done better.

SmokedAlmonds1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Happy Jack,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=IId7ZB5J,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-10-20T17:54:32.408+0000)

The concept is solid. "Gating" players as they progress through a tier makes sense. A sense of achievement earned through completing a goal / Promo Series adds value to the ranked system.

But the current version of the Division Series is more frustration than fun, and the game is supposed to be fun.

  • Currently we are heavily handicapped in a Series. Lose the Series = Losing LP AND climbing again ..vs.. Win the Series = Start at 0 LP. It's punitive to assign normal LP reduction for games lost in lost Series, but not award LP gains on games won in a Series win.

  • Too many Division Series. The above stated issue is compounded by 4 Divisions.

  • The above 2 points are exasperated additionally by the Series requiring either 100% or 66% win-rate to overcome, which is an extremely abnormal win percentage.

  • Too easy slip from a Division already earned. I understand there is a grace period right after winning... but after the "grace" you can easily slip. Lose a single game at 0 LP, and be demoted to 75 LP in lower Division. The player now has to win FOUR (4) games to get back into the Division. This is beyond frustrating considering the already mentioned points. Instead the player should go back into a Series, Demo Series.

Fix this.

You actually do gain LP during a series like you lose it, you just can't go over 100. But more importantly your MMR still moves normally. So even though you can't gain LP directly from some series wins, you will gain it in the future because that win without the LP gain will cause your MMR to be higher relative to your rank so you will improve your gains from successive wins/losses.

The win rates required aren't that crazy when considering the small sample size. If you are climbing you have to be winning more than half your games anyway. If you win more than half of your games you HAVE to be winning 2/3 games at various points already.

To get demoted your MMR has to drop below your rank(I think 1 division to drop a division and 1 tier to drop tiers). To get demoted you have to be losing more than 50% of your games to people who are ranked lower than you. In which case why wouldn't you be demoted?

Without promos there would likely be 0 demotion protection and those situations where you call it too easy to be demoted wouldn't exist because you would have already been demoted before that.

Happy Jack1 votes

{quoted}

You actually do gain LP during a series like you lose it, you just can't go over 100. But more importantly your MMR still moves normally. So even though you can't gain LP directly from some series wins, you will gain it in the future because that win without the LP gain will cause your MMR to be higher relative to your rank so you will improve your gains from successive wins/losses.

The win rates required aren't that crazy when considering the small sample size. If you are climbing you have to be winning more than half your games anyway. If you win more than half of your games you HAVE to be winning 2/3 games at various points already.

To get demoted your MMR has to drop below your rank(I think 1 division to drop a division and 1 tier to drop tiers). To get demoted you have to be losing more than 50% of your games to people who are ranked lower than you. In which case why wouldn't you be demoted?

Without promos there would likely be 0 demotion protection and those situations where you call it too easy to be demoted wouldn't exist because you would have already been demoted before that.

To your points:

  1. You don't gain any LP for wins in a Series if the Series is successful. Balancing that against MMR gains and meager LP increases of 2-5 LP in future wins is a weak argument. By that rational it would take 9 - 12 (ish) wins to gain that back assuming one never dropped MMR in those games (aka you'd have to win out).

  2. True, and I'd be fine with the % of games needed to win a Series if a player weren't sooo penalized for losing said Series AND if there were Demotion Series in place.

  3. Not true. Players with normalized LP gains / losses (appropriate MMR for division) are demoted routinely.

SmokedAlmonds1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Happy Jack,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=IId7ZB5J,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-10-20T20:29:09.166+0000)

To your points:

  1. You don't gain any LP for wins in a Series if the Series is successful. Balancing that against MMR gains and meager LP increases of 2-5 LP in future wins is a weak argument. By that rational it would take 9 - 12 (ish) wins to gain that back assuming one never dropped MMR in those games (aka you'd have to win out).

  2. True, and I'd be fine with the % of games needed to win a Series if a player weren't sooo penalized for losing said Series AND if there were Demotion Series in place.

  3. Not true. Players with normalized LP gains / losses (appropriate MMR for division) are demoted routinely.

You wont just gain more, you will lose less. Everything about the LP system and promos is superficial and only exists to change of people feel about whats happening. MMR is what dictates everything. A lot of people clearly seem to not like promos so on that they may need to be removed, but they aren't changing your rank.

Some people might get demoted routinely especially if their skill level puts them near the top or bottom of a division, but that still doesn't change that to get demoted you are losing more than half your games for some period of time. If promos didn't exist you wouldn't even stop at 0. Everytime your LP would go below 0 you would just be instantly demoted.

Happy Jack1 votes

{quoted}

You wont just gain more, you will lose less. Everything about the LP system and promos is superficial and only exists to change of people feel about whats happening. MMR is what dictates everything. A lot of people clearly seem to not like promos so on that they may need to be removed, but they aren't changing your rank.

Some people might get demoted routinely especially if their skill level puts them near the top or bottom of a division, but that still doesn't change that to get demoted you are losing more than half your games for some period of time. If promos didn't exist you wouldn't even stop at 0. Everytime your LP would go below 0 you would just be instantly demoted.

  1. You can't have it both ways. If a player loses less, he/she will also gain less by virtue of losses affecting MMR, you know this.

The very slight MMR boost of LP from a mere 2 games is negligible compared to 20 - 45 LP not assigned to the player upon completion of a successful Series.

It is inconsistent (frustrating) to assign 20 - 45 LP loss on an unsuccessful Series but not do the same on the other side of the equation. MMR LP gains will never equal that unless a player wins out (and wins many in a row).

TLDR: True, a small MMR LP boost will occur, but not in any significant amount to offset the lost 20 - 45 LP.

  1. I haven't advocated for removing Div Series, in fact the opposite. Add a Demotion Series.

If a player must go through the rigors of a Promo Series, they should get the benefit of a Demo Series. I see nothing wrong with this.

SmokedAlmonds1 votes

I'm talking about the amount you win and lose per game. When you win games but don't gain LP(in promos at 100) your MMR improves more than your league rank so you will gain more LP for wins and lose less LP for losses. This is going to happen until your MMR and rank match up again. It will even itself out.

EVERYTHING about the LP system is superficial. Nothing about your divisions, tiers, LP have anything to do with your actual rank except how they are presented to players. Its like taking a spreadsheet full of information and putting it into a graph. Promos only cause a short impact on your rank since it could take a few tries for the stars to align

I'm not really against demotion series(or for promos for that matter) but if someone doesn't like promos they aren't going to like demotion series either. Removing promos would probably be a more welcomed and easier solution and since none of effects your rank anyway you might as well take the path of least resistance.

Personally I dislike how hard it is to get demoted as it is especially for dropping tiers. Division promos are so insignificant anyway I just cant see adding demotion series as worth any time on riots part.

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