Recent Reworks: Success or Failure?

FarRockBF··19 votes·2,280 views

How I judge failure/success? How much more interesting the champion has gotten (I think Riot knocked it out of the park for most TBH), whether the reworked champion is balanced or not, and how stressful it is to learn/play the champion.

This list is just my two cents. wondering what other people's opinions are on them:

Ryze : Failure Ashe : Success Tristana : Success Zilean : Failure Sion : Success Cassiopeia : Failure

47 Comments

junglerboy1614 votes

starting from last year

Heimerdinger Success (very fun, balanced after tuning) Skarner Mixed results (hated on release, but a solid kit) Xerath Mixed results (hated on release, but a solid kit) Kassadin Success (not permabanned anymore) Gragas Success (kit matches identity) Rengar Failure (nothing changed except he can't split push anymore) Nidalee Failure (still really annoying and hard to balance, just in a different role) Sona Mixed results (solved overly passive play, made her too weak and AP reliant) Cassiopeia Failure (none of her core problems changed, her kit is just as broken if not more so) Viktor Success (fixed his passive, well balanced) Soraka Mixed results (removed soloraka's extreme bully power, but her heal feels weird) Sion Success (best rework thus far) Tristana Success (excellent kit, needs number buffs, especially her passive) Zilean Failure (didn't fix core problems, only made him uber unreliable) Ryze Uncertain (have to wait a little longer to see how well he turns out after people adjust) Ashe Uncertain (looks really good so far though)

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

starting from last year

Heimerdinger Success (very fun, balanced after tuning)

failure,solved nothing,playstyle for the most part is the same nonsense,just places turrets and let them farm for him.

Kassadin Success (not permabanned anymore)

Wouldn't call it a success,core issues remain,he lost some stupidity,but still maintains more than enough of it,kit is still inherently flawed.

Gragas Success (kit matches identity)

You're too eager to call success,he already had an identity for his playerbase,I'd say nothing changed for the most part.

Sona Mixed results (solved overly passive play, made her too weak and AP reliant)

I actually think her rework was good,nerfs were made later for no apparent reason,that's the problem.

Soraka Mixed results (removed soloraka's extreme bully power, but her heal feels weird)

She's definitely improved gameplay wise,even if not great,the improvement is large enough to be a success imo.

Tristana Success (excellent kit, needs number buffs, especially her passive)

It doesn't feel like much of a change to me either way,she stayed more or less the same.

Aelvr3 votes

The mixed results for Xerath were probably because the rework wasn't the play pattern that Xerath players enjoyed.

...Not that I played Xerath...necessarily... item 3070 item 3070

junglerboy164 votes

Yeah, the new kit is solid, but I definitely was REALLY salty about it when it first came out because I had just gotten Xerath and started to really love his sniper kit before I found out they were reworking it.

Aelvr1 votes

Same thing happened to me!

Nagoh Shan14 votes

Sion : Success - still needs traditional skin Soraka : Failure - Then a success - then nerfed back to a failure Sona : Terrible, horrible, no-good, very-bad, rework Zilean : Drugs are like this rework, Bad M'kay. Nerfed his passive, his reliability, his damage, his utility, and gave him an un-reliable stun to compensate :/ Cassiopeia : Mechanically a very good rework, however did not fit the play pattern that individuals who played Cass enjoy Ryze : Current success, his kit will be monstrous, but continual strength will depend on how much riot likes Ryze. Will either be very strong or weak. Middle of the road is unlikely Viktor : Successful evolution of the kit Tristana : Successful gameplay rework, probably under tuned compared to other self-peeling ADC's

Partholonian1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nagoh Shan,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=9R3gaKXL,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-04-30T18:19:58.101+0000)

Viktor : Glorious evolution of the kit

FTFY

Narasimha7 votes

Ryze : Success - Reduced early game strength, increased late game power, gave opponent's clear moments on when to engage on him. A rework isn't just about a champion's own strength.

Ashe : Success - Definitely a good one

Tristana : Success - It made her more interesting to play as and against. A bit harder to play as, but thats a small price to pay.

Zilean : Success - While his own strength went down, its because it was it gave his opponents a better chance to play against him. So a success in that it achieved what it set out to do.

Sion : Ultra success - Perhaps the single best rework to date.

Cassiopeia : Failure - She became strong because of her numbers, not her kit. That's an issue.

Champion Skin3 votes

Ehh... I am not so sure about Zilean... He lost too much reliability and got too little in return... And I think his kit is still rather hard to balance because he only has 1 damage ability...

NineTailedMystic2 votes

I hear people complain about Zilean losing his reliability, but I think he deserved it. It was so obnoxious to have him walk up and chunk at least 1/3 of your health with 3 buttons with no chance of failure. The rework certainly made him less aggravating to play against but I think the rework needs something other than Q for damage for it to be good.

Champion Skin1 votes

Well... he lost his reliability but in the end it didn't really fix how weird and wonky his damage is... And not to mention it was also a nerf to his E (duration is better then strength when it comes to slows/speed ups as they have caps which reduce their effectiveness the stronger they are)

fromdusktilldawn7 votes

y'all forgetting Veigar

CupcakeTrap1 votes

{quoted}

y'all forgetting Veigar

His power level seems okay. But I would respectfully say that this one still needs work. He's still got a "stun" that can't actually stun anyone who doesn't run into it (or isn't already immobilized). That bothers me. Just as a matter of elegance, I'd almost prefer that the stun were removed, and it were made into terrain or a slow or something. The only reason it makes any kind of sense is that, at low ranks, someone might conceivably prefer to be stunned briefly rather than waiting out the slightly longer spell duration. As tactical puzzles go, it's kind of underwhelming.

Richard6 votes

Ryze : Failure Ashe : Success Tristana : Failure Zilean : Failure Sion : Success Cassiopeia : Success

I actually kinda like the new Cassio.

Hellpyre1 votes

I agree with this, more or less. I feel like the mechanical changes on trist were good overall, but the core of her identity for me had always been "I'mma shoot you from WAYYYY over here".

Anidan1 votes

That sounds like Caitlyn and Kog'maw territory. We don't need 3 that fit the same bill (though Koggy and Cait both do it in different ways), and Tristana's territory shouldn't be able to encroach on someone else like that. She should have her own unique identity, and an explosive cannoneer sounds great to me.

Having a third do the same type of thing, even if it is a bit different, is kind of redundant. You could say, "But Jinx has some long-range AAs with her rockets!" Ah, but the difference between those three doing it from that range and Jinx doing it is that Jinx sacrifices something to do it while those three don't; in fact, they only benefit from it while Jinx trades lower damage for more range.

freeformline2 votes

I really enjoy playing Cassiopeia, but her style of play really does not fit her personality. I can't properly compare her to pre-rework Cass because I picked her up during the Shurima event, before even realizing she had been reworked. Her whole kit seems a little forced and over-complicated on the numbers front, so I think they could have done a lot better for her.

Champion Skin1 votes

Cassiopeia's kit was mostly the same before however her ratios and base damage was much higher on her Q/W and her E was mostly the same I think just a lot cheaper and didn't restore mana on kill... however her passive was 0-50% mana reduction (each spell cast gave you a stack which reduced the cost by 10% which stacked 5 times and you could refresh it with more spell casts)

This passive allowed her to not build much or any mana early on and focus on damage and being a strong early/mid game bully champion which fell of slightly late game because of well the usually mid game focused Pen Build and because of her lack of range and safety

Remlap12234 votes

Heimerdinger Failure, addressed zero of his gameplay issues. Skarner Failure, gutted kit under guize of rework, destoryed his theme initially, once he became good afterwards was immediately nerfed. Xerath Initial failure, now a success. Very cookie-cutter kit though. Kassadin Failure, gutted but addressed zero of his gameplay issues, took an Olafing to get him balanced, then nerfed again for no reason. Gragas Failure, made extremely clunky to play. With QOL changes, can be a success. Rengar Success, addressed major gameplay issues and gave meaningful counterplay. Nidalee Success, no longer reliant solely on Q. Still overtuned, needs mana costs on cougar abilities. Sona Complete failure. Gutted kit under guize of rework, destroyed her theme, continue to nerf so much it became a meme (#betternerfsona). Cassiopeia Complete failure, destroyed her theme, simultaneously made her even MORE unbalanced. Viktor Complete success, made his passive godly, saw play in LCS. Soraka Mixed. Theme fits better, new abilities are cool, was overnerfed. Much more fun to play. Sion Success, no longer a joke character, new abilities feel amazing, fits his theme. W is overnerfed. Tristana Success, addressed gameplay problems, kit has better synergy from new E. Overnerfed. Zilean Complete Failure, took away huge amounts of his power while addressing zero of his gameplay issues. Extremely clunky. Ryze Failure, made clunky to play while addressing his gameplay issues by making him clunky to build.
Ashe Possible success, have concerns about game breaking synergy with certain items (a la Kalista). Veigar Initial failure, now great success. Initially gutted him to uselessness despite a good new kit, now has great new zoning capabilities, as well as an easier to stack Q.

Noski74 votes

Ryze Success-I think this is great, and that one skillshot wont kill him like people think, i actually think he needed it.

Sion Success-He feels like an unstoppable badass

Tristana Success-She is great now, maybe not as strong as she was, but still a crazy powerhouse, with alot of risk/rewards.

Zilean Failure- A few things made me angry, a few things made me happy, but overall i was sad.

Ariaflux1 votes

Ryze really needs his Q to be a skillshot to make full use of his passive.

Onimus Terlain3 votes

I'm pretty sure Tristana was a massive failure. You never see her anymore and they nerfed her main attraction, her impressive range.

The rest, I agree with you for the most part.

FarRockBF6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Onimus Terlain,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=9R3gaKXL,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-04-30T12:47:45.166+0000)

I'm pretty sure Tristana was a massive failure. You never see her anymore and they nerfed her main attraction, her impressive range.

The rest, I agree with you for the most part.

Yeah Trist was a huge question mark for me. I think what pushed me over the top for "success" was that she definitely got more interesting and her moves fit more with her theme.

junglerboy163 votes

that is a question of balance. Her kit as a whole is much more interactive and fun, and while I do agree she's very weak, she is a better champion overall.

Tis a nice day5 votes

She's no longer nigh-untouchable late-game, but in theory she's also no longer useless mid-game. Only issue now is her numbers, but her concept is solid.

Solaxo3 votes

You forgot about Veigar and Morde mini-reworks. Which were total disasters

Vistha Kai1 votes

Morde was reworked? He was suppose to be reworked, but in the end they scrapped it and only did some minor changes.

Vistha Kai2 votes

Honestly I still don't understand why Cassi was changed.

I haven't seen Ryze in game yet. I tried him in custom once and seemed really underwhelming. With his passive charged he's suppose to be stronger than before, right? Ha ha.

Davy Crockett1 votes

Just take ryze into a game and you will feel the difference.

Extreme Troller2 votes

all rework were failure. Only cass is okay, because it add funny mecanism like a multiplicative ap ratio. but sadly it got nerfed i think so it's not a success.

sion is mega failure. The 100% lifesteal adc was extremly good on the right hand. now wtf riot completly changed him and he became a tank ?!!! a tank ?!!! not it must be a mistake or riot is uber noob. other rework are mega fail too, tristana monodps changed to aoe yea ok. zilean completly failing apart. ryze is not reliable anymoer and became a generic mage harass kit.

Buttigieg 20203 votes

So old sion was healthy? He has a point and click stun, he has 2 abilities that benefited from ap and 2 that benefitted from ad (half his kit was useless no matter what) do you not remember the dfg+q+w combo for 10k damage? Also his ult..... 100% lifesteal and attack speed for all allies. His old kit made yorick look healthy. Now he has multiple abilities with counterplay, a clear role, and is more fun to play as and against.

The only good things about his old kit were the schwartsneger puns. (Get to da choppah).

PalPlays2 votes

{quoted}

How I judge failure/success? How much more interesting the champion has gotten (I think Riot knocked it out of the park for most TBH), whether the reworked champion is balanced or not, and how stressful it is to learn/play the champion.

This list is just my two cents. wondering what other people's opinions are on them:

Ryze : Failure Ashe : Success Tristana : Success Zilean : Failure Sion : Success Cassiopeia : Failure

Ryze: RESOUNDING SUCCESS Ashe: Success Skarner: Gigantic Failure Sion: One of the best successes RekSai: Not really a rework but I have to say that her tweaks have been a colossal failure Ahri: Success Veigar: Close, but still a slight failure Anivia: A failure in that Riot should have reworked her years ago

MrBuffington2 votes

I'm mostly judging these more on how the kit does, or potentially will help to, solve issues the champion had, such as being overly binary or generally uninteresting/frustrating to play or play against, less so on their current 'balance', since much of that is just numbers. It think having appreciable strengths and accessible counterplay is more important in judging a rework's success/failure than just how numbers shake out on a given patch.

Borrowing Junglerboy16's list:

Heimerdinger I liked him, his popularity definitely surged afterwards. He still has issues just because his niche is a little too niche, imo. Skarner Very poorly received initially, I think he's in a better spot lately, though he still has some issues. Xerath Seems to be doing well, maybe too well; Ziggs is making a bit of a return but for a while it seemed like Xerath really choked out other mid laners. Kassadin Unsure, he doesn't seem like a problem, and Kassadin players seem to enjoy him, so I guess he's decent. His passive could stand to be more interesting, and he seems to lack outright counters (AD doesn't seem as effective vs him anymore) while still countering mages, but I don't know if he's necessarily in a bad spot. Gragas I'm mixed; maybe he's finally found a niche as a tank jungler, but it seems more coincidental than actually a result of the rework. I think if Cinderhulk gets nerfed further, Gragas jungle will cease to exist; he needs more help than others to really be tanky. Rengar He seems fine, he's a lot of fun to play. He can be very snowbally but seldom to the point where he just overwhelms a game, unless you're going full damage (which is very risky). Nidalee I think the rework did a good job reconciling her form change, but she, like Gragas, seems to have trouble finding a niche; I don't think she'll ever really be a stable jungler, just because she lacks a traditional jungler's kit. She's built and plays like a carry, she has no CC, so in metas where carry junglers or early game junglers are strong, Nidalee will be top tier, while metas where this isn't ideal, she'll disappear, like you already see happening in pro play right now. Sona I don't think it really changed anything, she's still brutally hard countered by certain champions and frustrating to deal with as other champions. She didn't really get more interesting than she used to be, either, just has improved visuals now. Cassiopeia I don't know if it truly solved anything, and it upset (to put it lightly) a portion of her core fanbase, so even though she's more played I don't know if the rework itself was successful. Viktor I think it's a vast improvement Soraka I think it did a good job of fulfilling her niche, but I think it's still debatable whether that niche is desirable. I like playing her, but wouldn't bring her into ranked except against very specific teams. Sion He's kind of a menace that continues to be nerfed, but as far as bringing a champion back to life, definite success Tristana I like it, but it still exacerbates her issue of having a generally weak lane and having to catch up later, while not really hitting the crazy levels late game that used to justify her early/mid game weaknesses. Zilean I still think it's really cool, though some of the changes felt more like a band-aid. Some Reds mentioned wanting to reimagine him as a champion and give him more to do with his theme; time mage has a lot of potential as a theme Ryze Too early to call, but from what I've played, his new passive gives him a ton of depth to his play; he's far more difficult to master, but I don't think he's too difficult to play at a basic level still. He'll probably need tweaks in the next few patches, but I think it's a good direction. Ashe I'm liking it so far, it gives her more depth to her play without really increasing her skill floor too much; Her conditions for success seem more visible now.

And even though he wasn't technically a rework, Veigar seems like he's in a decent spot right now; Veigar mains seem to be having a lot of success, so I think, even though it was pretty bad to begin with, his buffs have brought him to a good spot.

BestTristMyHaus1 votes

Tristana is more "interesting" (I actually like the E+Q combo mechanic, especially with E on towers) but the range NERF really hurt her a LOT so she's a LOT less viable. (I still play her mind you, but that's because I love the champ and am not playing at the high elos anyway)

BestTristMyHaus2 votes

After looking at stats, I have to call Tristana 's rework a failure. While I find the ability synergy interesting, her playrate has dropped in each of the last 5 patches. To me, if a rework means the champ is played LESS, then that's a failure.

DorkunedAuras2 votes

but if the rework essentially changed them off of a broken and abused form, then no, it's not a failure. You can't use blanket statements like that.

Anidan1 votes

Except Trist's rework wasn't a failure. She's not going unused because of her new mechanics, it's because she's under-tuned. The rework is actually really solid with an interactive skill-set, but she could use some simple numerical buffs, nothing more.

Even if Sion gets numerically nerfed to oblivion, that wouldn't change the fact that his rework was a phenomenal success, it just means he's numerically weak. Even if Viktor gets numerically nerfed or buffed, that doesn't change the fact that his rework was a glorious evolution for the mechanical scientist.

Ariaflux1 votes

As others have said, I think her kit is fine, but her numbers are not. For an ADC with no poke, she needs either a reduction of her attack speed / range nerfs or buff to her damage / ratios.

Meep Man1 votes

Ryze : Uncertain Tristana : Big Success, really cool kit and much less boring than before Sion : Gigantic Success, his character is shown everywhere in his kit and he immediately became a top pick Cassiopeia : Mixed Feelings, after a few patches she became a top pick but I think a lot of the old Cass players feel like their old poison Cass was left behind Zilean : Needs big buffs, a success as a rework, but a failure in balancing Ashe : Uncertain, although it is looking good

GrotesqueJak1 votes

Ryze - Success Sion - Success Cassio - Huuge success...She is way better/smoother/more fun now. Ashe - Success

Zil - Honestly don't care. I wouldn't mind to see this champion totally repurposed cuz his kit isn't interesting to play against or as. Nor is his theme. But I love his new skin. I love all the blood moon skins though.

Trist - Failure (She is clunky and I don't see a reason to play her besides major splitpush comp cuz her tower destruction is so high.

Davy Crockett1 votes

Veigar 'Sup

Mirage Seraph1 votes

Personally I'm on the fence about Zilean. I actually see the guy these days, prior to it I don't recall the last time I ever fought one. My friend did play Zil Support though, and stopped after the rework. Ehh... I wouldn't say it was a failure but not a success either.

As for Ryze, only played a couple matches since the patch, haven't seen him yet! The thought of his Q being a skillshot is dumb though. I guess it gives him the ability to fight over walls without vision but that's a very niche compensation for losing a locked on ability. Not to mention his ult now being his passive or whatever? Eurg. It doesn't SOUND good, that's for sure.

Rinky Dinky1 votes

Calling the ryze rework a failure LOL

Jungle Lux God1 votes

I think it's too early to determine whether Ryze and Ashe are successful gameplay reworks because the Ryze rework just came out a few days ago, and people would need more time to figure out how good his rework was (I personally played a few games on him today, and I'm willing to come out and say I think it was a success), while Ashe still hasn't come out on live, so we can't determine whether or not her rework is good or not until it does come out on live.

For the other reworks, I feel that it should be understood that every rework has an underlying purpose attached to it, and the determination of whether the rework was a success or failure hinges purely on whether the rework achieved that purpose.

By this standard, every rework that has been done so far is a success, because it achieves the purpose attached to it. This ranges from the reworks to Sion, Cassiopeia, Skarner, Veigar, you name it. Most players don't understand the purpose of the reworks Riot does to League of Legends' champions when they do them, and are willing to write the reworks off simply because the rework doesn't conform to what they liked about the champion, even if it was as small as changing one or two abilities to be less bullshit to play against.

Eleshakai1 votes

A few people posted really good analysis of these, but people need to remember that how successful a rework is is NOT based off of whether the champion is balanced after the rework.

Occams Raiser1 votes

Cass is fine to me. I slay regardless. Zil was shit in the first place. They just changed the context of his shitiness. Sion is nice besides his ULT. If he had better turning Radius he would be pick or ban. I am already looking forward to playing NEW ASHE. Trist was weak before.

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