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[Debate] Naturally Toxic Game Mechanics

Sir ArmaMalum··4 votes·909 views

Hello and welcome to my weekly (at least that's what I shoot for) [Debate] post. In this post series I outline a subject with LoL, and encourage people to post their own opinions and views about the subject. I hope to spark intelligent, civil and open-minded debate amongst the community. Just in case you don’t know how to do debate that here are the guidelines:

  • Don't dismiss anyone's opinions, opinions are never wrong, you just disagree with them.
  • You are free to disagree with someone always, but always do your best to explain why.
  • Don't get emotional, hopefully we're all adults here, keep it in 'debate' mode. No catfights allowed.
  • Feel free to disagree with my OP as well! I love feedback, but this is a debate thread, I'll respond where I can!
  • There is a comment reply cap! You only have a few tries to rebuttle and argue a point, so make them count!

#Naturally Toxic Game Mechanics

#####Want to help decide what topic comes next? Well you can! Poll below!

##What is a ‘Toxic Game Mechanic”?

We’ve all had that moment.

“How the hell is that fair?” | “What can I do against that?” | “Who thought this was a good idea?”| "WTF IS THIS?" | "Come on Rito!"

A Toxic Game Mechanic is any interaction in the game where you feel has an unhealthy effect on the game balance, game style, or the game in general. This can be, but is not limited to a champion ability. It can also mean an item, game logistic (turret behavior, minion number, etc.), or anything else you can think of.

##I’ve mentioned “X” for ages now!

As a player in the game, you have a right to speak your mind about a game mechanic you do not feel is no fair or not healthy. Game developers are only human and balancing such a dynamic game is downright difficult, there is always room for improvement. But to truly comprehend why you think it’s unbalanced…. ###Please explain, in detail, WHY you feel it is not unfair. PLEASE do not just say “X is unfair”
…this will not only help me (and anyone else reading) why you feel the way you do, but it also opens your argument up to rebuttle. Now this may seem like a bad thing, but rebuttles actually help refine your view, because if your argument can still hold merit after someone specifically argues against it, that makes it even better. Now, your argument may change and you can’t be afraid of that. A stubborn opinion stagnates and flops, keep your argument alive by constantly refining and improving it.

##I have an idea to re-make “X”!

####Please try to NOT post ideas for additions, re-makes, etc. This thread is made for identifying toxic mechanics and arguing why they are or are not bad for the game. It can be surprisingly difficult to refrain from doing this, but please try to make the effort, thank you! I’m sure you do have an idea, and I’m sure it can be a good idea, but as an engineering student I can safely say finding the problems and making sure they are actually problems can be just as hard as fixing them. An idea for a re-make is a great thing to post as your own discussion! And I for one will be very glad if you come up with a great idea because of this discussion, but this is a very very easy way to de-rail a conversation within this specific discussion. So, again, PLEASE try to not post your own ‘fixes’. Adjusting numbers is fine and even encouraged as that can better show where a problem area is! But changing the given mechanic doesn't help!

As a quick tl;dr:

####Acceptable

I feel “X”’s main problem is “this” and “this” can be brought down a bit without shaking things up too much. But beyond that “Y" is another problem area....

####Please Don't....
Hey, but what if “X” was changed to a teleport, and then you could make “Y” a nuke, and then….

##Inb4

Whether or not these are actually toxic is completely up to you, but I wanted to knock out some of the more popular ones up-front. Feel free to explain why you think any of these are not toxic if you feel that way!
######Note: These do not reflect my own personal opinion, that comes later!

#####Nidalee Nidalee Spear
Nidalee Spear is considered by many to be unhealthy for gameplay as the mana gating isn’t enough to prevent spam (usually due to Athene’s) and the Q has enough damage that it only takes one hit to knock someone out of fight either by killing them or forcing them to back, allowing for an easy forced teamfight.
####Current Response: Being looked at

#####Gragas Gragas Sustain
This is being changed in the PBE now, but one the chief things people did not like about Gragas was the fact he had such high health and mana sustain. Combine that with his built in Damage Reduction, a well-played Gragas would never be forced out of lane until he so chooses. This gets him advantage in both experience and gold that most, if not all, mid-laners could not do anything about. i.e. Blew all of their own mana and he’s still there, laughing.
####Current Response: Re-worked

#####Kassadin Kassadin Mobility
The fact that Kass has his own incredibly low-cooldown, longer ranged blink than flash meant he had unrivaled mobility and thus made him insanely difficult if not impossible to gank and otherwise isolate.
####Current Response: Core thematic mechanic to Kassadin (why people play him), mana-gating, reduced range on his kit forces him to dive a team to get enough damage out to be relevant.

#####DrMundo Hyperbolized Health Regen
As an incredibly useful out-of-combat stat, Health Regen itself is not a problem, but champions/items that bring enough health regen to be a useful in-combat stat (Mundo, prime example) is not currently in a good state for the game. GW is only on carries, and tanks have the regen, forcing inappropriate targeting. Most ways to introduce counter-elements can bring in severe problems in other areas (active heals, lifesteal, etc.).
####Current Response: Being looked at

#####item 3031 Cookie Cutter Marksman Builds
The lack of items and useful stats available to marksman make item choice very limited to do well as a marksman. This makes choice non-existent and takes away from the overall “fun factor” of playing marksman.
####Current Response: There will always be math-crafted “cookie cutter” builds. The amount of desired stats (AD, AS, Armor Pen, GA) makes additions of new items without being redundant very difficult.

#####Rengar Rengar Ultimate
Especially in Season 4, the ability to pounce from anywhere at any angle unseen makes skill and counter-play almost inexistent against it, save for a very lucky pink ward. Combined with Rengar’s double Q-nuke squishy targets simply do not have any way to play against this mechanic.
####Current response: Re-work

####There are plenty more, but these are the more popular right now and as such would inevitably pop up. Feel free to discuss them!

##The Question

###What part of League do you feel provides an unhealthy or “Toxic” experience for the game at large? Why?
Make sure that you’re not repeating someone else’s opinion! Read through the parent comments and if you find someone who feels about whatever element it is the same way you do upvote it, reply as well if you feel it can be better said or is differing slightly in an area.

##My Personal Take

Currently really just Rengar Ultimate, as the stealth + ms + lack of stealth detection in S4 makes him deleting a carry from your team pretty much guaranteed if he isn’t shut down, combine that with his split-pushing capability his ultimate can really spark unhealthy interactions with the rest of the game. His current PBE re-work Ultimate is a great approach to fix it imho, so even that complaint isn't going to be relevant soon. Really, my main view is that different ELO's bring different problems when it comes to toxic mechanics.

High Elo toxic mechanics can be things that allow for forgiveness to the few mistakes that can be made (i.e. Thresh Lantern, Rengar Ult, Hyperbolized Health Regen) but seem rather balanced in lower Elo.

Lower Elo though, have problems with things that can abuse the higher number of kills/deaths, lack of objective pushing and seemingly invisible power (i.e. Kill resets, split-pushing, increased gold generation).

So really a "toxic game mechanic" will always mean something either completely or a little different to one person or another, and as such need to be a case-by-case thing.

##Game Design Terms That May Help

Moved to here to save space and make for a better standalone read.

###Previous: Community Fracturing

###Next: Skin Spectacle Creep

###All [Debates]

19 Comments

Tyliear Depraw5 votes

teemo shrooms. even if they did 0 damage and didn't slow there still free wards that last 10 min each. in a game where noone else is alowed but 3 wards and a pink, very toxic.

Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

That's a good one! And before I say anything, if you haven't seen this post before you may like it.

I'm glad you mentioned the non-damage mechanics though, as those are still there even post-nerf. I agree with you the duration compared to wards combined with the ward change have exponentially increased Teemo's utility, and thus is very advantageous. Used right (against walls, hugging corners) these 'wards' can be a serious problem for the lower elo, as that usually means more roaming on both sides allowing Teemo to place more shrooms and more opportunities for opponents to walk over them.

From a game design 'on-paper' perspective shrooms are a nightmare, because their damage capacity on average is much lower than is seen on the gaming side. Simply because the damage and utility shrooms provide are entirely dependent on the opposing team' movement. Essentially, if you've ever played Teemo, there are just as many shrooms that go unused as get used unless you're remote pushing minions with them. That being said, a 10 minute ward in general does not interact well compared to any other vision mechanics in the game, smaller LoS radius or no, imho so I'll agree with you there.

Sorry, I get rambly sometimes. Thanks for posting, feel free to disagree with me on any points =)

ArtoriusIV4 votes

I don't think it quite fits here, but the inability to leave a team that you know won't fit with you. A lot of games I will queue, and just based on what people say in chat before the game, I know they will be off tilt, play poorly, or even just have a play style that won't quite fit with mine, and in these cases I would like to leave that team, to find one with better synergy with me, or teammates that aren't off their A game. Now I can see this being abused at the same time, overall, if used properly, it could be a great benefit to a lot of people. This could help people recognize(Like I have been able too) people who are off tilt, and who won't do as well, and might be a determent to your team overall.

(Also, really like how active you are Arma, big inspiration)

Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

I think this fits. And honestly your specific points make sense. Any honest person will agree that this can be useful, but any realistic person can also see the potential for veritable infinite amount of trolling possible especially in ranked.

The occasional que dodge will not actually get you punished at all in normals currently, as Leaverbuster has a base tolerance for the occasional leave/dc/afk etc. So if you feel that way in normals, there's actually not much right now preventing you except for the 5 min timer. Which may be well worth it depending on your chat. In ranked though, there's an active punishment, and for that I will say Team Builder is the closest hope we have for this problem. When another incarnation of it can be made for draft pick.

(Thank you!)

chuzzie272 votes

Yasuo's doubled critical chance. While the damage on critical strike is decreased, building Dps anyway defeats the purpose, virtually. Too toxic, one of the reason whyI think he is one of those champs that you love playing but hate playing against, along with Garen .

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

The intent behind the doubled crit chance from a design perspective (If I recall correctly that is) was to make it so a Yasuo could actually afford another item slot for a single defensive item without cutting (hehe) his damage horribly. One problem you may be encountering is actually more attributed towards item 3087 surprisingly. The reason being is that its flat magic damage can crit when a champion crit. Being a flat number, it is overtuned for early game and falls off amazingly lategame. So if a Yasuo gets it fast enough that's 200 magic damage that he can now poke with and/or add to his natural high damage.

Unfortunately I believe his problem is the same as all 'light fighters' (Riven, Warwick, fighters without 'heavy' defensive stat boosts) do in lower ELO play and blind pick. The main counterplay to them happens more in champ select than anywhere else (and lower ELO = smaller champion pool). They are such momentum mongers that if they are given a little they go a mile and it's very hard to come back from them carrying. Fighters in general are in an overtuned state right now and this has been readily admitted by Riot, and as such they can run around abusing their powerful kits.

So, all in all, I agree his power is overbearing, but not more so than any other fighter. Yasuo in particular also has complicated interactions that aren't immediately visible. My best suggestion is to actually play him yourself and learn where he's weak and where he's strong if you have not already done so. You may be surprised at what you find out! =)

chuzzie272 votes

Ah. That makes sense, the whole buying of less items to buy other defensive items.

But I feel like Yasuo doesn't need a defensive item, since he basically has an advanced built-in item 3112 passive. Getting defensive items such as item 3083 or item 3026 almost makes him impossible to kill due to his increased mobility, lifesteal, and kiting abilities.

As a side note, I have played him. Shaco

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

Ah but his shield isn't for him to proc, that's in the enemy tempo. The only way he can choose to use his passive is by exposing himself. Now, the shield at first scaled way too much and if he gained a lead in levels the passive shield became way too strong to be healthy, and that was addressed almost immediately in the next hotfix if I recall correctly.

Overall this does bring up a fact that Yasuo shares with someone like Orianna. Where his complicated interactions give him a high skill cap, and as such not only is he hard to play but also very difficult to play against. You have to proc his shield with a poke, watch his Q stacks and keep track of his windwall at the same time, which is more than most champions need to be watched for in order to functionally play against him. This is a problem but one that tends to sort itself out after a few games, but is still a problem during those games.

Unfortunately addressing this particular problem would mean making him unviable in higher elo where the skill cap means less.

chuzzie271 votes

Okay, I see where you are coming from. And I think that the fact that I have to know when his abilities are down in order to engage is a bit more demanding to play against. It is just a matter of skill at that point, then.

Appreciate the insight very much, Sir Arma. :)

Remlap12232 votes

Let's not forget Blitz's pull. That is such a toxic mechanism, especially as a support. When the name of the game is to keep yourself from overextending, when you can just push a button to pull and stun an enemy champion, and then follow up with an instant knockup, your chances of surviving that are slim at best. And everyone always says to duck behind minion waves, but you're not always going to be behind minion waves, especially in the jungle. The only other comparison I can make with a similar ability is with Alistar's headbutt pulversise combo, but you can screw that up pretty easily, and you're still in enemy territory when you land it. Blitz just facerolls and instantly kills squishy targets. There is only one way to fix this, and that is to make Blitz more viable in other lanes. After all, he was meant to be a bruiser, not a support.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

Aha, I knew someone was going to mention the Blitzareeno! I have prepared for this one!

Okay one, as a gamer, screw Blitz. I ban every time and in general I hate him more than Teemo
-collective gasps-

As a wanna-be game designer though, the pull pretty much is his power budget (oh, I forgot to put that one up in terms.... will fix after this). What that means is, as an individual champion Blitz has almost no presence other than his pull. His cc is low and he is one of the squishiest melee champions in the game. So as a pick in general he is very high risk/reward overall because his success completely depends on him landing pulls, which as far as skillshots go is very difficult comparatively.

Kira Onime1 votes

Holy crap this is well made.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

Ty kind sir =)

Michicha1 votes

It's a wonderful and extremely detailed analysis of the mechanics of the game. I hope this gets seen more!

chuzzie271 votes

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Luner Hunter1 votes

Riot thinking that out of combat ( read as not fighting enemy champions as that is how riot puts it) healing with supports is toxic... they said that "undoing the work that the enemy champions just did is toxic" i think this is wrong namely due to the Spell Vamp and Life Leach that melee and ap champs can abuse on minons to regain health... basically what riot is saying here is they developed atleast 2 champions with the soul purpose of being healers ( Sona and Soraka ) then decided to screw over everything they are meant to do with AP ratio guts (many, many, many, guys) but let ADCs / AP midlaners / Junglers / Tanks heal out of combat with Life Leach / Spell Vamp that only gets ramped up the more they build Life Leach, Spell Vamp, AD/AP Dmg, and Attack speed.... lets not forget certain champions like Yi who can meditate for HP, Mundo that can just pop his ult and regen all of his hp (or close to it), Nidale who has better heal scaling and for that matter Kayle (when built hybrid or full ap)scale better than Sona building support like shes suppose to...

Basically I'm saying that I'm fighting the unwinnable battle with riot about how Healing out of combat IS NOT TOXIC!

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

If you're talking about the GW debate and unhealthy hyperbolised health regen, then your opinion is fine but I will simply disagree with you to a point.

To emphasize hyperbolic health regen, which includes exaggerated lifesteal (ala 3 BT's, hydra in a minion wave, etc.), a champion that can start teamfight, run away for literally two unharrassed seconds and come back at near full health is not a healthy interaction for the game, as it specifically forces the opposing team to either a) burst this champion's (Mundo, for example) health down 100-0 which is not something the game is tuned to be easily accessible. b) not focus the champion at all and hopefully burn his team around him or c) be forced to get a mechanic (GW) that is not only limited but not a great effect in its current iteration (That specific topic continued here)

If you remember this is actually the exact reason lifesteal (ala Bloodthirster, vamp scepter) itself was nerfed at the beginning of Season 3. Vlad got hit too if i recall correctly. This is merely a continuation of that into a more "big picture" discussion.

Now, the reason I only partially disagree with you as an individual is that lifesteal/spellvamp and noticeable health regen/healing itself is a cool interaction. I like it. And I think it can have its place without being unhealthy (as ironic as that statement is). It's simply the abuse cases like Mundo or old AP Xin-Zhao that draw attention it as a problem.

And as a word of advice, move your mood away from "fighting" and more towards "working with". Riot is not trying to anger you and they are not conspiring against you, they just have a different opinion. They're human beings too, they're due their own thoughts on things. If I may suggest to instead civilly explain why you feel the way you do without attacking anyone then you will have a good chance at a red response, as they are drawn more towards having a discussion rather than moving to defend themselves.

Luner Hunter1 votes

i LIKE healing and regen its Riot who doesnt like it :|

Rubitonabuilding1 votes

Malz ult. ugh. There's not many things in League that I consider unfair, but Malzahar's ultimate pisses me off every time. He can just completely suppress you, and if you're a squishy champ, you're done.

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