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So explain to me why Fiora gets a buff added to an overloaded kit?

SuicideJ··2 votes·1,021 views
Fiora

And I get nerfed because of fiora.. instead of reducing her base stats. What the fuck Riot. She heals more than I can damage her while applying the fucking damage that destroys me. She is soooo fucking unhealthy that I have no idea how you fucking let her out of PBE without even thinking about how she works with items and kits. Like seriously? You "nerfed" her? What nerf? You nerfed titanic instead of her so anyone that uses titanic gets nerfed instead of fucking fiora. She gets a slap of the fucking wrist and you fucking dare say she was "nerfed"? Are you on crack? Do you allow the balance team to balance her stats to compensate for her overloaded kit? Do you even HAVE a balance team? Do you have anyone who is limited to what they can put into a kit?

INNATE: Fiora identifies the Vitals of nearby enemy champions, marked as an arc around their character. Vitals take 0.5 seconds to identify and last for 15 seconds. After a Vital is triggered or times out, Fiora identifies a new Vital on her target. Basic attacks and damaging abilities against a Vital deal 2% (+ 4.5% per 100 Bonus AD) of target's max. health as bonus true damage, heal Fiora for 25 - 110 (based on level) and grant her 20 / 30 / 40 / 50% bonus movement speed that decays over 1.75 seconds.

Why the fuck are you giving her the ability to do more damage as true % damage then HEAL her from it!? Why not give her fucking speed on top of it!! Oh wait!!

ACTIVE: Fiora dashes a short distance in the target direction, then stabs a nearby enemy if one is present, moving into attack range of them. Stabbing an enemy reduces Lunge's cooldown by 60%. The stab deals physical damage, applies on-hit effects, and prioritizes exposed Duelist's Dance.png Vitals, followed by enemies who would die to the strike and finally the nearest target, prioritizing champions.

Why the fuck are you giving her a free range getaway initiator then giving it to her again when she hits someone? You make it even easier by fucking letting her have priority!! WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK RIOT!!

ACTIVE: Fiora poises to strike in the target direction and then enters a defensive stance, parrying all incoming non-turret damage and hostile crowd control effects for the next 0.75 seconds. After the duration, Fiora stabs her sword forward, dealing magic damage to enemies in a line. MAGIC DAMAGE: 90 / 130 / 170 / 210 / 250 (+ 100% AP) The first enemy champion struck also has their movement and attack speed Slow icon slowed by 50% for 1.5 seconds. If Fiora parries at least one immobilizing effect, Riposte Stun icon stuns the target for the same duration instead.

A fucking block to counter CC AND damage. Oh and let's throw in fucking MAGIC DAMAGE. Movement and AS are slowed by 50%.. WTF!! And if you block a CC they get stunned for the same duration.. WTF RIOT.

ACTIVE: Fiora's next two basic attacks gain bonus attack range and 50% total attack speed. The first basic attack can never Critical strike icon critically strike, but Slow icon slows its target for 1 second, while the second basic attack is guaranteed to Critical strike icon critically strike for bonus critical damage. Bladework resets Fiora's autoattack timer.

Fucking additional RANGE for a MELEE champ... FUCK RIOT!! Oh, and additional AS.. no biggie.. FUCK!! guaranteed critical strike.. FUCK!! And a fucking slow..

PASSIVE: Duelist's Dance.png Duelist's Dance's bonus movement speed is increased. ACTIVE: Fiora challenges the target enemy champion for 8 seconds, highlighting their four Duelist's Dance.png Vitals and creates an area around them, granting Fiora Duelist's Dance.png Duelist's Dance's movement speed inside it. If she triggers one Duelist's Dance.png Vital before her target dies, or triggers all four, she creates a Victory Zone that heals her and allied champions within for 2 seconds. 「 HEAL PER SECOND: 80 / 110 / 140 (+ 60% Bonus AD) 」 The Victory Zone's duration increases by 1 per Duelist's Dance.png Vital hit, up to a maximum of 5 seconds. While Grand Challenge is in effect, Duelist's Dance.png Duelist's Dance does not identify new Duelist's Dance.png Vitals on her target.

Bonus movement speed increase.. WHY!? And a HEAL!? WHY!? Plus her passive is put into play with more HP% true damage and heal..

I don't understand how hard it is to tweak a champ so they aren't ruining the game. She can solo an entire team with CC and kill all of them and still be above half health. That is unhealthy. Fucking fix your shit Riot.

You even gave her back the CLEAVE effect on Tiamet, while shitting on Titanic. STOP PUNISHING THE ITEMS AND PUNISH THE CHAMPS!!!

TL;DR Fiora has: increased bonus damage that doesn't take much to land. (Passive)

Percent health true damage (Passive)

Heal off of said percent true damage (Passive)

Movement speed (Passive)

Dash (Q)

Champion priority (Q)

Cooldown if hits an enemy (Q)

Blocks all damage (W)

Returns would-be damage (W)

Parried CC stuns for the duration of the CC (W)

Magic damage to mix AD and magic damage (W)

2 attacks gain bonus range (E)

2 sttacks gain bonus AS (E)

First attack slows (E)

Second attack guaranteed critical (E)

Resets auto attack timer (E)

Gains movement speed (R)

Heals herself and allies (R)

Passive takes effect up to 4 times (R)

This is a total of 19 things in her kit. 19. NINEFUCKINGTEEN. This last "nerf" didn't do shit. It hurt items which hurts other champs because of the shift. If you are gonna do something, fix base stats not the fucking items. Fix the kit, not the fucking items. This is like elementary stuff. Fiora mains love the reinstated cleave passive btw.

28 Comments

redniwediS4 votes

I'd say your TLDR needs a TLDR, but concentrations of salt that high simply cannot be healthy.

SuicideJ1 votes

That's kinda the point. If it takes too long to read and it's the basics its too much.

I think salt everywhere would go down if they learned to limit kits and balance properly.

redniwediS1 votes

Balance properly according to who? Balance is relative after all, and there will always be people who view things as unbalanced.

SuicideJ1 votes

According to logic, as it is universal not relative. History has shown us (and continuously so) that how they "balance" champs, doesn't actually balance anything. They hit the kits stats and the items which creates more unbalance in the rest of the champs. items aren't always the problem. You can shift the base stats of a champion and the items mesh with that. The kit should never be overloaded in the first place. No kit should have more to it than any other kit. This is obvious. When a kit does more than another only an idiot could lose. If you have tons of CC you shouldn't do damage too. If you do tons of damage quickly you shouldn't heal without building lifesteal. This applies to anyone, not just Fiora.

Don't take the stance of "that's just your logic", it ain't my logic. It's universal. Regardless of anyone's opinions or beliefs, even mine, logic is an absolute.

redniwediS1 votes

What?

First off that's not how logic works. Logic isn't some absolute force in the universe. There's a few definitions of logic, but I'm going to assume you mean reducing ideas into a form that easily follows the rules of mathematics. Math can be viewed as an absolute, but if you think logic is as well then you clearly don't understand logic.

Secondly game balance is fully opinion. You're not physically weighing two objects and making sure they are equal here. Game balance is a different thing entirely.

You have to decide what you're going to balance around, how you want to fix problems with balance, and what the end goal is for your balance team. If you had a state of perfect balance in a game then victory would be fully decided by player skill and connection speed. That's not something we want.

So each character is given a different kit. Most games want it to be a "rock-paper-scissorish" setup. Mind the "ish", because again they don't want it to be perfect balance. Imbalance is the name of the game, and allows a meta to form and flow as time goes on, keeping the game from stagnating for years.

League has something like this. You may disagree with how Riot does it, but they do have a rock-paper-scissorish system that allows the meta to flow. They often have a direct hand in adjusting that flow, but not always. In the end it's the players finding the easiest path to victory and exploiting it that decides whether rock beats scissors today, or whether paper gets to be viable.

TLDR: You need to do some more reading on logic, and game balance isn't about balance at all, but rather about creating a perfect imbalance. Deciding how that imbalance should work is opinion, and thus all game balance involving a perfect imbalance system is opinion.

So again I ask, relative to who's opinion? Because you haven't made a great case for your own.

SuicideJ1 votes

Balance is balance. It's either balanced, or it isn't. Anything in between is either on it's way to being balanced or abandoned to never be balanced. There are many ways to "balance". Doing one of the correct ways to balance actually creats less work for the balance team. The way they have done it is hurt every champion that is not Fiora with the Titanic Hydra nerf. Anyone else who uses it needs a buff to make up for the 20 something damage lost. Instead of changing something simple, or even trying it then reverting it if it didn't go well which would be no different from them disabling a champion to fix bugs, they pick the one that affects all champions.

You are either logical or you are not. You cannot be both. Is gravity an absolute force in the universe? No. Is it on Earth? Yes. You must have something counter gravity in order to counter gravity. You can't just jump in the air and float away. Gravity will always pull you down. Logic is the same way. If something is not correct then it wasn't logical. You seem to like to apply "logic" where logic does not need to be applied vs where it needs to be applied.

If you balance the champion by base stats instead of items or kit, it only affects the champion themselves. This is a contained trial. When you balance an item it is an epidemic. Every champion that uses that said item is now affected by that items change. So every champion needs to be changed according to the item to be balanced. It's a vicious cycle. It also creates more unnecessary work. The whole concept of league is based on skill. Connection speed is on Riot and the player connecting to the game.

The game has been stagnant. Are you kidding? Any time you reach a healthy "meta" (if you can call metas healthy) they change it as soon as they can because people complain they are not strong enough to instant burst someone down. A meta only chokes diversity and new ideas of playstyle and lane makers from ever existing. Veigar top, Evelynn ADC, Sejuani mid, etc. That prevents stagnation. Cuz it's different and weird. Saying "play what we want you to how we want you to or we will make you unusable" aka a "meta", is the complete opposite opponent to diversity and anti-stagnance.

Again the "meta" counters what Riot claims to want. They are control freaks to the highest degree. Someone might play better with a champ that another is weak with and do better and have different outcomes. But that is on the player. However, making every champ have a limited kit so it doesn't go overboard is essential to balance. They don't have to do the same thing. But, if you do tons of CC you shouldn't do tons of damage even with a health reduction. Because you can destroy anyone with CC. Having damage to top that off would mean land a CC you get a kill. Why do so many Supports have CC instead of the ADC's? Because it would be too strong if Morgana or Blitzcrank had Vayne damage along with their usual kit.

Imbalance has no bearing on making a game playable. If it's too much then it's too much. That's why they have "patches". Otherwise just let the champs do their thing and throw items out just because and screw the consequences. Throwing a game to the wolves destroys the game. So imbalance should be the very thing Riot fights. So far it's the only thing they embrace.

I never once said anything about relativity in the context that I use it. That was your thing and you are sticking to it. That's fine. Just don't ever balance a game. Riot doesn't have anyone counter a champion build made by another Riot employee. You improve upon things by being critiqued. Not by shoving things down peoples throats and telling them its good for them just because you said so.

Against your case, if you can call it that, mine is miles ahead because your entire case is summed up like this:

Logic is relative. (It's not,

That's your opinion.

You are just whining.

Imbalance is good and necessary.

Sadly, not one thing of yours did much of anything but defend Riot from criticism, albeit very pissed off criticism, but criticism nonetheless. Riot has a factual history of ignoring it's fanbase when it comes to balancing things.

Primordial Logic is a good example of the point I am making. I am making a point whether or not you get it or block itor agree with it. The point is made. You use philosophy to use "what if?" as your opinion in a viewpoint that has zero basis of logic in it at all and are based of off emotions that do or do not have relevance to the topic.

Time and space are absolutes. They are Primordial. They do not need more evidence provided of their existence other than their existence. Logic observes these to be true. Therefore, it is Primordial Logic. Difficult, huh.

redniwediS1 votes

What the flying fuck...

You clearly skimmed everything I wrote. So many things you think I said I actually didn't, and the proof is right there in text for everyone to read.

You didn't even make a good try. I'm honestly tempted to go through and put quotes side by side showing what I actually said and what you think I said, from our own previous words only.

To save time, here is a list of my biggest gripes;

Gravity is a pushing force, not a pulling one. I said a flowing meta can prevent stagnation, not that the game was stagnant, or that we have a flowing meta. Imbalance has a different definition than the one you're using when it comes to game design. Logic is math, and math could be an absolute, but the transitive property doesn't apply here. Logic doesn't have to be relative just because it's not an absolute. It's not my opinion. I'm not defending Riot, you're just on a witch hunt and I'm not joining you. Time and space are not absolutes. Logic does not view the existence of time and space to be a tautology.

Seriously now. I'm willing to argue with you, because I find that fun, but if you're not going to make a competent attempt at reading my words I'm just going to have to leave. Conversations require give and take, but you view your own opinions as absolutes. That's something I just can't deal with. I'm sorry, but if that's how it's going to be I might as well try talking to a brick wall.

Thund3r Ang3l4 votes

Well they nerfed her E range and slow and the hp% bonus damage on her passive. However, her mid game will be stronger with the buff on the ad passive bonus. They did this to encourage fiora player to build AD instead of tank item. I might be wrong ^-^ Correct me.

Duelist's Dance (Passive) **
    Base Damage down to 2% of target's maximum health in true damage from 3%
    Bonus AD Ratio changed to 4.5% from [2.8% - 4.5% based on level]

Bladework (E) 
    Slow reduced to 30% at all ranks from 40/45/50/55/60%
    Bonus range reduce 25 from 50.
SuicideJ1 votes

It'd be great if she built just AD, however, her base stats are what need changed, not her kit stats. Her KIT needs changed not the kit stats. It's technically worse than ekko's kit and it was super overloaded when it came out. Tiny changes do not equal "nerf" if they don't change anything enough. She is harassment with a side of heal and kill.

Thund3r Ang3l2 votes

{quoted}

It'd be great if she built just AD, however, her base stats are what need changed, not her kit stats. Her KIT needs changed not the kit stats. It's technically worse than ekko's kit and it was super overloaded when it came out. Tiny changes do not equal "nerf" if they don't change anything enough. She is harassment with a side of heal and kill.

You are probably right. I know she is rly strong, lets see how it goes for fiora this patch. I play shen most of the time so she isnt much of a problem but for the majority of top laner, a good fiora beat em all which is overkill.

SuicideJ1 votes

Top laners have the highest ban rate too.. Why Fiora is not permabanned is beyond me.

Twiggles4 votes

When every third word in your OP is "fuck" or "fucking", don't be surprised when people don't take you seriously. Especially when you are complaining about a champion who was not only nerfed directly, but also nerfed through the items she was abusing.

SuicideJ2 votes

She was abusing tank items, so the tank items were nerfed. Who suffers? Fiora? No, she just alters what she builds. the tanks are who suffer. That's why the boards said nerf her base stats to build more damage instead of tank. They ignored us.

I can't take Riot seriously. They don't see the game as healthy or not healthy. They don't care. They tell us more about skins and memes than the proper way to play. I'm pissed off. She has too many advantages and hardly any drawbacks. She go balls deep and she wins. It's not rocket science.

Twiggles2 votes

From the most recent patch notes:

Passive: 3% Of target's max hp Now 2% Of target's max hp. 2.8 - 4.5% Per 100 AD Now 4.5% Per 100 AD.

Her passive's ratio was buffed early, but the base damage was reduced, leading to an overall nerf before several hundred AD (which prevents her from building tanky if she wants to do appreciable damage now).

Plus, her bonus range and slow on her E were both literally cut in half (40%-60% slow Now 30% slow at all ranks.) (50 bonus range Now 25 bonus range.)

ON TOP OF THAT, Titanic Hydra (which was being abused my more than just Fiora) got a sizeable nerf.

Her base stats are fine now that her Passive has been nerfed, one of her most abused items has been brought into line, and her E's utility has literally been cut in half. Yet you claim she was buffed?

I can't take you seriously. You just want to shit on Riot for some reason while completely ignoring the fact that they have dealt with several of, if not most of Fiora's major problems at this point. A nerf has happened here, and calling it a buff is fundamentally incorrect.

It's not rocket science.

SuicideJ1 votes

ITEMS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. Literally. You can adjust her damage down to where if she builds Titanic Hydra, she loses damage since it is low on damage. Lower her ratios in her kit, or anything else you can dream of. But changing an item because a couple abuse it means you change the couple who abuse it not the item. Now it affects everyone that uses it.

She still has a slow. doesn't matter the length. It still is a slow. It's part of a 19 piece kit.

You just admitted they nerfed her passive 1% then buffed her ratios ENCOURAGING her to build AD. Does not guarantee she will. So she didn't really get nerfed since it's still true damage. Look at any of the 19 parts of her kit and notice how many other champions have that strong of a kit.

Riot addressed a problem that didn't need to be addressed and left the one that needs to be addressed under the rug like we don't know it's there. It's laziness. I'm not the only one who thinks it is either. If they have dealt with Fiora's overloaded kit by not doing anything to it, then I don't understand your statement or you don't understand your statement.

Twiggles1 votes

All I see here at this point is someone who is impossible to please and desperate to bitch about something. Thankfully, the general upvote/downvote trend on your OP seems to agree with that assessment. No matter how much you whine and moan about what you perceive to be a problem, it won't magically make it a problem.

You go on about the "NINEFUCKINGTEEN" things in her kit. It's real easy to make something sound overpowered when you only list the positives of a kit, isn't it?

I'll give you an example of how easy that is to do.

Galio's super OMG overpowered kit:

1: Gets AP for building MR (Passive)

2: Area of effect damage (Q)

3: Movement Speed Slow (Q)

4: Armor/MR Buff for self or teammate (W)

5: Gains health when hit (W)

6: Gains AP on self-cast (W because of Passive)

7: Fast skillshot (E)

8: Goes through Minions (E)

9: Movement Speed Buff for entire team AND minions (E)

10: Huge area of effect Taunt (R)

11: Massive area of effect damage (R)

12: Can cast shield on self while ulting to heal and increase damage dealt by ult (R with W)

13: Damage reduction to self (R)

14: Is not mitigated by Tenacity (R)

There you go. FOURFUCKINGTEEN things that make Galio ridiculously overpowered. Better go nerf him, right? Never mind the fact that Galio needs help, flash, or enemies with the reaction times of an inebriated goldfish to get a good ult off. Let's just look at the kit and say ERMAGEHRD SO OP!

Likewise, Fiora needs to put herself at considerable risk to use most of her kit now that her Passive nerfs as well as the recent Sterak's/Titanic nerfs make her unable to build tank NEARLY as effectively. Her E slow and range nerfs take away a good amount of her safety as well. Her W only saves her for .75 seconds and stuns one potential target for 1.5 seconds (Not the duration of the CC blocked!) if hard cc is blocked. She can't afford to build tank anymore because her damage will be gimped too hard to kill anyone before they blow her up.

She goes balls deep, she explodes. She goes balls deep intelligently, she does well. This is how it is supposed to be.

SuicideJ1 votes

7 is not a kit booster. It is a functionality. If every skillshot was slow most would never hit. That makes the skill unbalanced. What would make E broken is if it heals him for each enemy hit. Or does true damage. Or gives him Cooldown reduction on every skill he has. He has 1 active that gains health when activated not passive every 12 seconds that also does true damage. Don't hit him and he doesn't heal.

What the effects are and how strong they are also comes into play. But you are still 4 short of Fiora. None of mine were based off of how fast projectiles go or anything non stat related or relevant. true damage is more of a problem than damage. This is non arguable. It's a fact. If Galio's kit is as strong as you say then he would be a much more used champ than he is. His kit is okay but it isn't strong against most champs right now. Mainly against AP champs.

Twiggles1 votes

You can't be serious here. I DON'T ACTUALLY THINK GALIO IS OVERPOWERED. Nor is Fiora.

I was giving an example of how cherrypicking the good aspects of a champion can make literally any kit in the game look like a problem. If you're really incapable of recognizing that, then there truly is no helping you.

Don't bother responding to this. It's obvious that an extended conversation with you on this topic can go only nowhere.

Lauchmelder3 votes

From checking the link you provided alone I can tell that this are the 6.4 changelogs.

SuicideJ1 votes

They haven't changed her since 6.4 and the latest change was last night/this morning and it didn't really do anything to hurt her at all.

AntiSkillshot1 votes

{quoted}

They haven't changed her since 6.4 and the latest change was last night/this morning and it didn't really do anything to hurt her at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0

Weiner the Pooh3 votes

Literally everynaspectmof her kit has been nerfed, wtf are you still complaining about?

SuicideJ1 votes

Citation please. Because I'm pretty sure that having a 19 piece kit isn't getting through to you. The average champion has 10-11 piece kit. NOT 19. That is a severe difference and benefits the people who take advantage of the exploitation of those champions which is unhealthy for the game. Do you not understand what modifying a kit is? It's not stats.

Akasuisei2 votes

130 or so champs out there and fiora is defintely not at the top.

Advice: Pick a new lane ( if you are the one getting rekt by fiora top). Ban her Learn some other champ that counters here (100+ to choose from) Focus on what you can do in other lanes and on other champs to help your team.

For every person who thinks a champ is too OP and whines like this, there are 2-3 others out there would could go against the champ, eat them for breakfast, ask for seconds, and shit them out every game.

SuicideJ2 votes

I have been asking for Jungle. I get Top.

I ban her now. She was supposed to be "nerfed".

I have seen her beat supposed counters.

Handing her a free lane to nexus doesn't help the team.

Grats. I guess you missed the overloaded kit part. Must have been a mistake. Plus your stating good vs bad Fiora's, which is dependent on the players. Diamond players can't carry bronze games when their teams feed. Yet they say you have to carry to climb. How's that work? That is relative to the players and their champs select. But look at that kit with it's prioritizing and easy hits. it makes her simpler to play.

Akasuisei1 votes

If you are that worried about her in champ select, talk to your team and bring it up. Someone will usually say "I can handle her, let me switch lanes with you" or "I'll choose X champ to counter her at Y point in game". If your team realizes this early, it will be on their radars in game and your jungler might be able to come gank earlier, or your mid and jung could swing over to steamroll her tower down...there are ways around it.

If you are just saying she is too OP to your team after the fact, then its just whining and there is less you can do when behind.

Obviously, Riot has her in mind which is why they are adjusting things but that's not something you can control so learn to be proactive and work around her.

SuicideJ2 votes

My whole speel has nothing to do with her being OP and whining about it. It is about LEGIT issues with her and the game. The way they balance and how it doesn't solve the problem, shows that they don't care. Or that they have no idea how to balance or listen to the players testing this crap.

I wasn't looking forward to her to begin with. Her kit is ugly. Too much. The average champ has less than half her versatility and boom.

Swae72 votes

her passive is her kit and it got nerfed including the item that she uses the most. Dude go dip ur keyboard in the sink cuz if u arent satisfied with this nerf u clearly arent considerate of the fiora mains out there.

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