Why doesn't Nid have any mana cost?

LaceUp23··12 votes·1,675 views

She has mobility, good damage, and a heal...why doesn't she have to pay for it with any reasonable mana cost?

30 Comments

EL HAMSTERO7 votes

if nidalee is going to be using the heal, she has huge mana issues.

Jubbinaut5 votes

For Nidalee:

Q (human) costs 50/60/70/80/90 mana. W (human) costs 40/45/50/55/60 mana. E (human) costs 60/75/90/105/120 mana.

Her base mana scales from 296 (~5.92 casts to OOM) - 1061 (~11.78 casts to OOM). [for both of those average calculations, I used the average mana cost of all skills at that lvl - 50 at Rank 1, 90 at Rank 3]

Her mana regen runs from 6.0 - 19.6 (adding in cast times/cooldowns, this ensures 1 full extra cast at each extreme).


For comparison, here's Elise (chosen because she has 2 forms, one with mana costs and one without, that she can shift between at lvl 1):

Q (human) costs 80/85/90/95/100 mana. W (human) costs 60/70/80/90/100 mana. E (human) costs 50 mana (all ranks).

Average mana cost Rank 1: 63. Average mana cost Rank 5: 83. Base Mana 324 (~5.14 casts to OOM) - 1174 (~14.14 casts to OOM). Mana Regen 6.0 - 19.60.


When comparing to the most similar champion, we see that Nidalee actually has slightly higher costs on average, and slightly lower mana with which to cast them. I suspect that other comparisons would yield similar results, which, in conglomerate, would indicate that her mana costs are fairly near average.


EDIT: For additional comparison, here's Jayce (both forms, listed separately):

Q (hammer) costs 40/45/50/55/60/65 mana. W (hammer) costs 40 mana (all ranks). E (hammer) costs 40/50/60/70/80/90 mana.

Average mana cost Rank 1: 40. Average mana cost Rank 6: 65.

Q (cannon) costs 55/60/65/70/75/80 mana. W (cannon) costs 40 mana (all ranks). E (cannon) costs 50 mana (all ranks).

Average mana cost Rank 1: 48. Average mana cost Rank 6: 56.

Overall (all 6 abilities): Average mana cost Rank 1: 44. Average Mana cost Rank 6: 60. Base mana 307 (~6.97 casts to OOM) - 987 (~16.45 casts to OOM). Mana Regen 6.0 - 19.6.

LaceUp231 votes

Nice work! I would like to see her compared to different mages, though. Elise is pretty much shit tier right now lol...anything is better than hers xD

Jubbinaut2 votes

Who would you like to see comparisons with? It's notable that Elise is the closest analogue in terms of functionality. There are only 5 champions with direct transformation abilities. Of those only 4 can control that change (Gnar being the exception). Of those, only 3 have short cooldowns/immediate access to the ability (Quinn being the exception). And of those, only 2 have 0 mana costs in their secondary form.

In the interests of full disclosure, though, I'll add both of Jayce's forms to the above post as well.

EDIT: Jayce doesn't have forums. I dunno why I said he did.

LaceUp231 votes

Oh I'm not saying your choice in comparisons was bad at all, just that Elise is shit tier right now lol. But hey, compare to anyone, even non transformers. I mean, most mages should surely have lower mana costs since they can't do all the switching and stuff she can.

Jubbinaut1 votes

Random sampling of 5, then (using Ultimate Bravery to randomize champs - skipping non-mana champs):

Annie:

Q costs 60/65/70/75/80 mana. W costs 70/80/90/100/110 mana. E costs 20 mana (all ranks). R costs 100 mana (all ranks).

Average mana cost Rank 1: 62. Average mana cost rank Max: 77. Base mana 334 (~5.38 casts to OOM) - 1184 (~15.37 casts to OOM). Mana Regen 6.0 - 19.6.

Overall - higher cost at low ranks, lower at higher ranks; more casts per mana bar at all ranks.

Cho'Gath:

Q costs 90 mana (all ranks). W costs 70/80/90/100/110 mana. R costs 100 mana (all ranks).

Average mana cost Rank 1: 86. Average mana cost rank Max: 100. Base mana 272 (~3.16 casts to OOM) - 952 (~9.52 casts to OOM). Mana Regen 7.2 - 14.9.

Overall - higher cost at all ranks; fewer casts per mana bar at all ranks; worse mana regen at higher ranks.

Diana:

Q costs 55 mana (all ranks). W costs 60/70/80/90/100 mana. E costs 70 mana (all ranks). R costs 50/65/80 mana.

Average mana cost Rank 1: 58. Average mana cost Rank Max: 76. Base mana 297 (~5.12 casts to OOM) - 977 (~12.85 casts to OOM). Mana Regen 6.0 - 19.6.

Overall - slightly higher cost at low ranks, lower cost at high ranks; fewer casts per mana bar at low ranks, more casts at high ranks.

Kha'Zix:

Q costs 25 mana (all ranks). W costs 55/60/65/70/70 mana. E costs 50 mana (all ranks). R costs 100 mana (all ranks).

Average mana cost Rank 1: 57. Average mana cost Rank Max: 61. Base Mana 327 (~5.73 casts to OOM) - 1007 (~16.50 casts to OOM). Mana Regen 7.6 - 16.1.

Overall - slightly higher cost at low ranks, much lower cost at high ranks; similar casts per mana bar at low ranks, scaling to significantly more casts at high ranks.


Lissandra:

Q costs 85 mana (all ranks). W costs 50 mana (all ranks). E costs 80/85/90/95/100 mana. R costs 100 mana (all ranks).

Average mana cost Rank 1: 78. Average mana cost Rank Max: 83. Base mana 304 (~3.89 casts to OOM) - 1154 (~13.90 casts to OOM). Mana Regen 5.7 - 12.5.

Overall - costs scale from significantly higher to somewhat lower; casts per mana bar scale from significantly fewer to more. (Notable: Lissandra's passive allows her occasional free casts, which offset the casts-to-OOM somewhat, and explains the reduced mana regen).


EDIT to summarize the findings:

Of these random 5, only 1 has higher averages than Nidalee across the board (Cho'Gath). The rest start higher (sometimes much higher - see Lissandra) at low ranks, and range lower (sometimes much lower - see Kha'Zix) at higher ranks. Which would indicate that her costs are fairly middle of the road.

Schizos1 votes

{quoted}

Who would you like to see comparisons with? It's notable that Elise is the closest analogue in terms of functionality. There are only 5 champions with direct transformation abilities. Of those only 4 can control that change (Gnar being the exception). Of those, only 3 have short cooldowns/immediate access to the ability (Quinn being the exception). And of those, only 2 have 0 mana costs in their secondary form.

In the interests of full disclosure, though, I'll add both of Jayce's forums to the above post as well.

They are nothing a like in terms of damage. Other than shifting forms...that's about all they share. Compare her to a lux or a Zyra is what poster is implying.

Jubbinaut1 votes

In terms of functionality, Elise is the closest analogue to Nidalee. They are the only two champions who have toggled transformations, where only one of those forms uses mana.

But feel free to peruse this post for other random comparisons. I'll edit in a Lux and Zyra comparison to this post later.


Lux:

Q costs 50/60/70/80/90 mana. W costs 60 mana (all ranks). E costs 70/85/100/115/130 mana. R costs 100 mana (all ranks).

Average mana cost Rank 1: 70. Average mana cost rank Max: 95. Base mana 334 (~4.77 casts to OOM) - 1184 (~12.46 casts to OOM). Mana Regen 6.0 - 19.6.

Overall - higher cost at all ranks, though the difference is more pronounced at low ranks; fewer casts per mana bar at lowest ranks, more at higher ranks due to greater mana total. (Notable: I'm still of the opinion that Lux's E is somewhat over-costed, but that's purely my opinion).

Zyra:

Q costs 75/80/85/90/95 mana. E costs 70/75/80/85/90 mana. R costs 100/120/140 mana.

Average mana cost Rank 1: 81. Average mana cost rank Max: 108. Base mana 334 (~4.12 casts to OOM) - 1184 (~10.96 casts to OOM). Mana Regen 6.0 - 19.6.

Overall - higher cost at all ranks; fewer casts per mana bar at all ranks. (Notable: I expect Zyra's R cost will be changed to fit the current system (100 at all ranks), which will bring her max rank average down to 95, and her max lvl casts-to-OOM up to 12.46, like Lux's).

Beerstein4 votes

She does. Go complain about a champion that matters like Ryze, he has no mana issues (lol duh) and is a more dangerous opponent than Nidalee.

LaceUp232 votes

No lol, she really doesn't. If you want to argue Ryze is stronger, that's fine. But don't lie about it lol.

Beerstein3 votes

{quoted}

No lol, she really doesn't. If you want to argue Ryze is stronger, that's fine. But don't lie about it lol.

You've played nidalee ZERO times. It's all well and fine for people to complain about Nidalee, heck it's the popular thing to do but frankly you have no clue what you're talking about.

Sarutobi3 votes

Honestly I don't get it either. It's annoying and just feels cheap. If she can spam all her skills basically free healing herself or her teammates. Leap in and out of combat there needs to be something that cripples her if she uses it too much!

Beerstein2 votes

{quoted}

Honestly I don't get it either. It's annoying and just feels cheap. If she can spam all her skills basically free healing herself or her teammates. Leap in and out of combat there needs to be something that cripples her if she uses it too much!

There is, it's called mana. (honestly not sure if your post was sarcasm or not)

LaceUp232 votes

She only has like 3 out of 8 abilities that use mana...and the mana cost on those 3 is actually really low. If you honestly think that we are saying she is resource-less, then you have some problems.

blackid1012 votes

nid isn't op dodge a spear you win

LaceUp231 votes

Good discussion. I especially like the part where you made up me saying Nid is OP.

blackid1011 votes

she's isn't even remotely annoying

Beerstein3 votes

I like the ratings, they show how irrational this community is and it gives Riot a good reason to ignore possibly more legitimate complaints about Nidalee.

Also yes Lace, me saying "It's called mana" means "resourceless" Also she has 7 abilities not 8 and her heal costs more than most ults.

LaceUp233 votes

Total cost of all 8 abilities: 270 mana.

SH Azykan2 votes

Play nidalee in mid lane, the jungle and then top.

Then tell me she has 0 mana issues.

Top lane I build AD Bruiser, and still find myself running oom...and I am focusing on my auto's more than anything.

Mid it is even worse. At least jungle has runeglaive.

50000000000000001 votes

Why do you think Nidalee has a mana bar?

WTFMatee1 votes

you do realize that nidalee would be needing a rework (aka reverting the idiotic change your implying)

Thats part of her kit is her melee form is no mana. If it did she would go oom before she could even get to a fight

LaceUp231 votes

Even her ranged abilities have small mana costs, though.

HEXXEN9x1 votes

That would mean she would have an actual weakness other than 1v2'ed.

LaceUp231 votes

She has plenty of weaknesses. I was just wondering why mana costs weren't one of them lol.

Mandang01 votes

You had me up to heal. The mana cost on that is high.

LaceUp231 votes

I'm not saying the individual cost isn't. I'm saying she has a lot in her kit and her overall mana cost for it is pretty low.

Mandang02 votes

Well, the alternative is going back to old Nidalee, who didn't need to follow up on her spears. I agree that her kit is fairly generous, but Riot's pushed the damage from her spears into the mark system, which Nidalee needs to use cougar abilities to benefit from. Making Nidalee pay mana to do this defeats the purpose of Riot's directional change, and would encourage people to go back to playing Nidalee as a spear bot (or not at all).

LaceUp231 votes

Yea, I suppose that makes sense. Lol, I'm glad you actually tried to answer..instead of saying, "no she has high mana cost dodge spear nub" lol.

zFlash961 votes

Wait wait.... what is this «mana» you're all talking about? Is there even such thing called «mana» in League of Legends?

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