You know what? I think CertainlyT is great at what he does.

Kitsuki05··4 votes·432 views

People always hate on him ever since he came up with Darius. Do people even complain about Darius anymore? I wasn't too crazy about the guy when he first came out either, but now he seems like a pretty well defined standard of balance. Darius is a melee king, if he can get you close to him and stay close, he will ruin your day, but he also has clearly defined weaknesses.

Then we get Thresh, a strong support with a lot going for him. Like anything popular, people just cry it's OP, but c'mon can anyone really say thresh is a bad addition to league? He has a story, he has unique moves. How come nobody brings up how awesome Thresh is when talking about CT?

Then comes Yasuo and everyone cries about the power creep. I mean what are people's deal, do you want less interesting champions to be released? Yasuo had a game-changing skill, the wind wall, and this sort of opened the way for more meaningful skills to be released, for example Braum's shield and Bard's Ult. The idea of directly interacting with mid-travel projectiles (other than body blocking) and even completely negating them had never been tried before, and someone had to be brave enough to step up to the plate.

point is, CertainlyT tries to make something new and interesting out of everything he touches, and everyone just hates because when you explore into completely new territory things can turn out imbalanced. But, I'd much rather have interesting sometimes imbalanced champions, rather than a boring perfectly balanced never-changing game, and for this I applaud him.

9 Comments

Rustling Bush3 votes

certainlyT made kalista, that alone made me hate him. creative? certainlyT, cancerous champion? certainlyT

Only Play Darius2 votes

His designs are definitely unique and his champs are INSANELY fun to play, he's a good designer but often times he just goes too far in loading the kit and it ends up making unbalanceable champions. For example, Yasuo's double crit is a tacked-on passive and gives him completely unpredictable powerspikes, and it gimps him in that so long as he has double crit, he can't be balanced and it's much easier to leave him underpowered like he is now simply because of kit problems.

PeachsProperty2 votes

I like the guys champs. new ideas on msot of em (darius is a slow tank who can eat ur face off who gets faster the mroe enemy bleeds)

If i had to have a single RIOT member redo a champion i would pick him.

having champs unique is a good thing. (and i am one of the players who hates yasuo with a vengence)

YCitizenSnipsY2 votes

I've learned to stop taking the communities outrage over a specific Rioter seriously a long time ago. Last year the Forums were up in arms over Riot Scruffy and how terrible he was and how he needed to be fired for the Rengar rework. And now look Rengar has the SSW skin to commemorate how strong of a jungler he was in season 4. These boards, just like the old forums, are wrong on game balance issues that haven't hit live like 80% of the time. Just another circle jerk that will die off in about a month

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

point is, CertainlyT tries to make something new and interesting out of everything he touches, and everyone just hates because when you explore into completely new territory things can turn out imbalanced.

If it was just a state of numbers balance i don't think there would be a problem, but when his champions are not balanceable then there is an issue. When you look at much of his work the champions have high pick and ban rates with terrible win rates in order to compensate for their generalist and overloaded kits. Thresh as an example lacks an identity. Is he engage, peel, poke? He can do just about anything which means there is no reason to pick another champion, which in turn makes the game stale and unchanging. Unique champs is a good thing but not when it comes at the detriment to the rest of the lineup.

Kitsuki052 votes

Thresh lacks an identity? Everything about his kit screams, grab a champion and lock them down into you prison. He's the soul warden, he has an awesome identity. Also, saying to never release something that makes older champs look underwhelming means the game will never advance: no new skills, no new interactions, no change.

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

hmm, sorry, i wasn't clear in my previous post. Thresh was just an example to my larger point but lets take the side conversation.

When i say he lacks identity i didn't mean thematically. Thematically he is an awesome champ with a solid identity. I love me the soul warden, i really do. His kit however is quite generalist and lacks focus. If the focus of his kit is supposed to be single target lockdown then the hook and the AA damage amp passive fit that kit quite well, and the single ally save could be argued to fit, but the two AOE cc abilities really don't. Now don't get me wrong these are fine abilities in their own rights but if his focus is to be single target lockdown then they don't fit with that vision for his kit. Blitzcrank has single target lockdown pretty well and does it much better than thresh to often frustrating results for Blitz's opponents. Blitz's kit isn't the pinnacle of design of course but his kit is designed with a purpose in mind and that is what thresh seems to lack.

When one champ can do everything then there is no way to advance because they will be picked in virtually every situation which is what we see with overloaded kits such as thresh's. It's why he sees such a high pick rate. New abilities and new interactions are great, but don't put them all on one champ. If you can't design a new champion without giving him clear purposes, strengths, and weaknesses then it doesn't matter how fun they are to play because that is a failed design.

Kitsuki051 votes

{quoted}

When one champ can do everything then there is no way to advance because they will be picked in virtually every situation which is what we see with overloaded kits such as thresh's. It's why he sees such a high pick rate. New abilities and new interactions are great, but don't put them all on one champ. If you can't design a new champion without giving him clear purposes, strengths, and weaknesses then it doesn't matter how fun they are to play because that is a failed design.

And then after a champion like Thresh, you get Tahm, and Braum. Whereas Thresh comes out and people think he does everything (which he really doesn't Leona is still 10x scarier anyday), the next champion comes out and people notice "oh hey this guy does a lot too". Pretty soon you get a whole roster of champions doing impressive things that make the game way better.

And saying Blitz is more of a single target lockdown becuase he has less abilities that lock down a single target? AoE or not, anyone who's played Thresh can tell you his entire rotation is locking onto one person and then locking that one person down, having two of the abilities AoE (one of which is only AoE because it allows for counterplay by the enemy team by the way) does not make this any less his entire role. Blitz on the other hand is dedicated to targeting one champion and pulling them out of position rather than locking them down, there is a significant difference.

Thesh by no means does everything, look at what some of the newer champions can do: Braum is a giant walking wall that can turn the squishiest member of your time into a tank and then negate an entire wave of projectiles for your team, something Thresh could never do with just a puny shield from his lantern. Look at Tahm, he literally picks you up and carries you away from danger, he doesn't have to hope you aren't stunned or blocked or otherwise denied access to his life saving ability, he just picks you up and the only thing anyone can possibly hope to do about it is target him instead.

Thresh is distinct and unique, and because of it all the supports have lately have just gotten so much better, but people just cry fowl because a well designed champion is popular? Isn't the point of a new champion to be something people want? Playing as Thresh, and playing against Thresh are both meaningful scenarios, he can fluidly execute his moves to achieve his design goal, but even when he does so, there is something the enemy team can do in response to every one of his actions.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Thresh is distinct and unique, and because of it all the supports have lately have just gotten so much better, but people just cry fowl because a well designed champion is popular?

Define well designed. Being able to do everything your role would want (explanation incoming) isn't well designed. Part of the design philosophy of League is the state of perfect imbalance...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

and thresh does not exhibit that at all. In the cyclical imbalance that league is designed around thresh can counter any champion picked against him because he has tools to deal with them all. All in supports are weak to poke, poke are weak to sustain, and sustain are weak to all in. Thresh has his shield and naturally gets a relic shield so he has sustain, his hook and the damage amp work as poke, and the 2x cast hook as well as his flay work for all in. He exhibits qualities of all three categories. This means that if played into the match up correctly he can always come out ahead through sheer diversity of tools in his kit. Each of thresh's abilities are somewhat underwhelming, but when put together create a kit that has little in the way of actual exploitable weaknesses.

Isn't the point of a new champion to be something people want? Playing as Thresh, and playing against Thresh are both meaningful scenarios, he can fluidly execute his moves to achieve his design goal, but even when he does so, there is something the enemy team can do in response to every one of his actions.

What is his design goal? You have described it as single target lock down but I've demonstrated clearly that his kit is not focused around that, and there is not something every champion can do to counter every one of thresh's moves. Thresh has the tools to counter anyone, which means he is safe to pick in any match up.


I had initially addressed each of the champions you listed but found that the above argument was more clear and concise. In any case i typed these up and didn't want that to be for nothing.


That Blitz point is absolutely fair, that is how most Blitzcranks play. However, successful Blitzcranks use their move speed boost to get onto one target, knock them up, and save the pull for when the enemy tries to use their escape. Sounds like single target lock down to me. Meanwhile Thresh has great single target lock down but can also disengage the fight, shield and protect the adc, peel, poke. Blitz lacks so many tools that thresh has it isn't even fair to call thresh a single target lock down champ compared to Blitz. All blitz gets over him is a better hook.

Leona may be scary, but she has no poke and no sustain. Her kit is built to go for all in trades and she lacks in other areas. She is good at what she does but lacks the tools to do everything. Thresh may not be able to all in like Leona, but she can't poke or shield her ADC.

Braum has peel, disengage and anti-poke but lacks all in and lacks sustain. His kit lacks in distinct areas. He is strong at what he does but lacks tools he shouldn't have. Thresh may not be able to block projectiles but that's really all Braum has, Thresh still saves carries better than Braum could dream of and doesn't have to risk getting caught out to do it.

Tahm has poke and a little sustain, but he has a hard time going for the all in because he lacks gap closers. His kit is very vulnerable to kiting. His kit lacks in distinct areas and doesn't have tools to do everything. Tahm has better disengage but Thresh isn't near as kite able as tahm.

Thresh can do everything each of those champions can do. With poke, disengage, engage, shield, peel... he just has more tools at his disposal than every other support, even the champs you listed, and that is what makes him such a contested pick. You know that no matter what thresh will fit into the team comp your team builds while with these other picks you run the risk of lacking tools your team needs.

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