@Riot: New Idea for Garen's Ult

PhoenixSlayer13·Feb 6, 2014·9 votes·4,915 views

For a while now people have been disappointed by how Garen's ult feels weaker than comparable ults. But I just had a fun idea that might make the ult feel better if used in certain situations.

My suggestion: when Garen's ult kills a target, the shockwave of the blast deals AOE damage to all enemies around the target.

This change would make it so that Garen still feels good about using his ult while dueling, but makes it even better in a teamfight scenario, where Garen is usually right in the middle of everything. That kick-ass shockwave animation is already there, why not make it more than just an animation?

33 Comments

Didymus IIFeb 7, 20144 votes

As a summoner who plays Garen all the time, I have serious interest in this thread. I do understand that Garen's ult is useful in multiple situations, since it can easily kill literally any low health champion. However I would like to point out the comparison of Darius. His ability to repeatedly kill low health champions, albeit, through his passive's stacking effect and not low health, eclipses Garen almost completely. The input of a faster cooldown would only support the use of cooldown reduction items, thus limiting his build viability in other items (such as critical strike or AD/tank hybrid builds). The increase of damage on his ult would just make Garen powerful without the use of skill. ADC's/APC's would simply be picked off with ease, making him overpowered.

Thus, I have a proposition; if not the seeding of an idea. I do not expect this to actually happen, however I would like to throw this out there.

If Garen kills the enemy champion he ults on, he could gain one of the following effects:

Increased movement speed for a duration (similar to his Q's duration, only without the CC removal).
Increased attack damage for a duration.
Increased attack speed for a duration.
Increased Armor/Magic Resist for a duration (similar to his W's duration, only without the CC reduction).
CC removal for a duration.

I don't think that a CC effect (such as a silence, knockback, or stun) would fit Garen's playstyle, which is centered around hitting one person really hard and then getting out alive.

Either way, thank you Riot for your time in the patches with Garen, updating him, and making him even more awesome visually. I appreciate all that you have done with the game. Please keep it up.

ShadowNinetailsFeb 7, 20141 votes

This deserves to me much higher on this page.

PhoenixSlayer13Feb 7, 20141 votes

I like these ideas :)

I think the attack damage increase might be best for Garen without stepping over his other abilities. Like he's empowered by the righteous fury he's called down.

AtanchanFeb 12, 20141 votes

The icon for his ultimate shots the ground literally cracking with light, probably from the power of JUSTICE.

So why not put some terrain into the mix?

Imagine, the giant sword coming down on your target. Its hits, and if the target dies, the glorious energy from the sword seeps into the earth and cracks it, light shining from the nether below. The energy spreads across a large area, and it empower Garen.

Basically, like Trundle's Frozen Domain. It wouldn't really benefit him in 1v1 situations, but I'd imagine it'd look pretty damn sweet.

As another idea entirely, why not have a successful ultimate reset the cooldowns of all of his other abilities? Not only does that have a parallel with Darius, it also has a parallel with Katarina. I can't imagine it'd be too impactful on his power, either, it'd just be an excuse to add cool visual effect to him and let him run rampant some more.

GingyByteFeb 6, 20142 votes

Maybe Give The Ult Some CC... It doesn't have to be much, but garen is rarely seen in any ranked play. This primarily being because his lack of CC. Due to the fact that his ult does have a relatively long cooldown compared to many other ults it is more that fair that this now provides a brief stun. Additionaly it will make his ult more versatile so it wont just be a clean-up.

PhoenixSlayer13Feb 6, 20141 votes

I'm sure about stun per se... maybe an AOE slow. To me, if Garen is just dueling someone, he really should be using his ult to kill. In teamfights it's a little different, but I still like the idea of rewarding Garen for timing his ult right instead of just adding a stun to it on its own.

Eye of ImplexFeb 6, 20141 votes

i agree with this guy

Bl3uFeb 6, 20141 votes

Garen having more CC could work, but i'd rather see it on his shield. For instance when he activates his shield if you hit him you get slowed or something. Or possibly when you activate the shield, it also creates a short range aoe slow centered around garen.

I just think that garen's ult is fine how it is. Its a really good execute, and it doesn't really need to be anything else.

ShadowNinetailsFeb 7, 20141 votes

I'd be for something like this, I just worry about how that would take away from J4's Golden Aegis.

RiotScarizardFeb 6, 20145 votes

The big issue with including something like CC on Garen's ult is that it confuses the use-case. Garen's ult, when successful, executes your target (which is quite powerful that he has a 'just kill you' button). If we were add CC to it, likely two scenarios would arise:

You'd rarely ever see it, because the majority of your Garen Ults are killing your opponent (making the CC ineffective/superfluous).
The CC in question would be so effective that Garen's would use their Ult on targets that they want to die, but are not in execute range - (i.e. if Demacian Justice stunned the target for X seconds, you'd never get satisfying damage. You'd just use it on a person you wanted to CC.)

Even in case #2, often times the point of CCing a target is...well, to kill them. If Garen's ult -were- to get some love, we'd likely make the threshold at which it does maximum damage a little higher so that you can take out targets easier, or decrease the cooldown so that he were to have it more available.

That said, Garen's ult is pretty satisfying at the moment (imo) - and i wouldn't be excited about increasing the power of an ability that comes at the end of the engagement rather than one that's used/felt throughout.

PhoenixSlayer13Feb 7, 20142 votes

I'd agree that increasing that threshold or decreasing the cooldown would be good steps, but I just feel like Garen's ult needs a little extra flavorful punch to it.

Let's compare it to an ult it's been compared to time and time again: Darius's. For Darius, getting kills in a teamfight feels all the more satisfying because you know you can keep dunking fools until they're all dead. For Garen though, it's just the ult and that's it.

I'm not even taking damage into consideration here, just talking about aesthetics. I guess my point is that Garen's ult could use a little extra pizzaz to it, just something to make it cooler to use in certain situations.

ShadowNinetailsFeb 7, 20144 votes

I somewhat agree, but at the same time, I do like that Garen's ult really only has the one use case. Garen's been my main top laner since season 1 (my 2nd champ ever) and what I've always loved is that once I hit 6 the enemy's perception of trading with me fundamentally changes. With Darius, you know he's liable to drop the Guillotine on you whenever he wants whether it's to kill you or drive you back so he can recall. With Garen, you have a Yasuo-like paradigm where you know exactly what situation he'll use his ult in and it becomes your mission to keep that from happening. This creates a situation where you become much more wary anytime you're below 50% and his spells are off cd and it makes it much easier to be bullied out.

It's like hooks from Blitzcrank or Thresh. It's not what the spell does, it's what the spell means. In a teamfight, no adc wants to stay around after they get chunked and Garen's still alive. They know how that story ends. Adding extra utility to it would possibly end up being a nerf because it cuts down Garen's fear factor.

EDIT: Also, name me one thing that's cooler than calling down a massive sword from the heavens to smite your enemies? Steel Legion Garen is one of my favorite skins in the game purely for adding a lightning strike to the effect as if Zeus is saying "Fuck this guy in particular".

Thorne LionsbaneFeb 7, 20141 votes

completely awesome unless they spell shield or its tryndamere, three time in one match I did it because I got so caught up in the fight.

ShadowNinetailsFeb 9, 20141 votes

I know that feel, bro. All too well.

You can clear out the spell shield with q, though that might take some timing trickery if it's Noct/Sivir and not a BV.

JustAverage001Feb 7, 20141 votes

Garen and Darius ult's are extremely similar, the differences, Darius's ult has slightly more range, lower initial cooldown and has the potential to reset, while Garen's ult has much better scaling, isn't item dependent and costs nothing to use. Garen is one of the few champions that can kill the current Dr. Mundo 1v1 late game with ease and his ult is the reason for that. Besides, it is literally free power. No energy or mana system to worry about, when you need it you can use it. As far as balance is concerned, I feel that Garen's ult is completely balanced if not slightly op when compared to Darius. As for pizzaz, there are plenty of champs that lack pizzaz yet get the job done, try playing as Soraka for a bit, you will go back to Garen wondering why you ever complained.

ShadowNinetailsFeb 7, 20141 votes

Damn Scarizard as if you didn't already have my faith, I almost wrote that word for word before I thought to read your comment first.

NVDaxFeb 7, 20142 votes

Please decrease the cooldown? Just by a little? On par with Darius or something? PLEASE?

JustAverage001Feb 7, 20142 votes

There are 4 items(ghostblade, cleaver, visage and locket) that synergize well with Garen's kit and 4 mastery points that offer cdr. Going outside of that, cdr hungry summoners often get 8% cdr from glyphs. Using the 13% cdr from runes/masteries and 10% cdr from an early brutalizer you can reduce your disadvantage in ult cd to a mere 3.2 secs before you even get to level 6. buying no other cdr items and assuming base cds for Darius you will have a 7.6 sec advantage at lvl 11 and a 18.4 sec advantage at lvl 16. Assuming you get to cdr cap by buying two of the four items + keeping that brutalizer or finishing it into a third, your tier 3 advantage will be 32 seconds.

Edit: there are actually 7 mastery points that offer cdr but I'm assuming you don't want to spend points in the utility tree to get to the cdr mastery there.

Kyleman143Feb 6, 20141 votes

Wow this idea sounds awesome Riot Plz

RhytoFeb 6, 20141 votes

That would make that ultimate really deadly if performed right, like a gank for example in the middle of a teamfight to scatter the enemy and run O.o? Yeah it'd be powerful I think it's fine as it is.

Maverick495Feb 6, 20141 votes

I think that the idea is a good one but Id like to see it with a bit of a slow like. "Garen strikes his target for X if he kills his target a shock wave explodes from the targets location knocking up enemies near the target location slowing by 30% for 2.5 sec". Scale the %slow and duration by rank like 15%,20%,30% 1,2,2.5 sec. That way if its used as a finisher it adds utility but it can still be used to add overall damage with out being OP.

I Main SwainFeb 7, 20142 votes

but then there would be no real consequence for mistiming the garen ult and you would just get stupid kills all day long

Maverick495Feb 10, 20141 votes

I meant that if the ult doesn't kill you get no benefit other than damage you only get the utility if the ult kills the target.

I Main SwainFeb 10, 20141 votes

oh ok misread it I see what you mean now.

State CapitalFeb 6, 20141 votes

I feel he is already quite OP and next to unstoppable when farmed or fed, toooooooo tanky and his ult is like total annihilation to a player when timed right. Instant death.

Thorne LionsbaneFeb 7, 20141 votes

While it would be nice to have a stun or root in his kit the ult is fine where it is at currently the cool down is a little long to me though plus unlike Darius its a one shot deal if it kills great if not, well shit. so take like five seconds off at max rank?

Vic BossFeb 8, 20141 votes

I'm Glad that there are summoners out there who does love Garen so much that they ask for a buff. When I first started trying LoL, I didn't like it one bit. What made me love it? Garen, the might of Demacia. And since that day he is my Main and play him 80% of the time wither in ranked or normal.

Garen is really really underpowered compared with so many other champions. Mainly his Ultimate and Passive.

Ultimate (R):
1-, it has a very massive cooldown. During the 'Laning Phase', after a fight where I use the Ult (Doesn't matter wither I killed with it or not) when I recall and go back to my lane, I have to wait so much time to be able to kill again because simply Garen has a very low chances of killing without his Ult and since it's on cooldown. I can't kill my enemy most likely until the ult is off cooldown.
2- It can only be used on a single target. Unlike Darius who can butcher the entire enemy team with his low cooldown ult and resets on kill that also deal true damage. Even you (Riot) knows this, you've added a taunt that Garen can use on Darius calling him a butcher not a general, honestly its true.

What are my suggestions as a very big Garen fan and player?
- Reduce Cooldown
- Either give it an AoE damage OR AoE slow. (It does have a massive blast radius. And the Ult is a big BOOM.)

Passive:
I really hate Garen's passive because its so underpowered compared to many other champions. Sure it does heal you but after staying out of a fight for 9s for it to be active and then wait a lot to heal (0.4% each second) and don't forget, staying out of a fight meaning no CS. While we have an overpowered Dr called Mundo who heals 0.3% each second 'all the time' and we have a dude called Xin Zhao that heals a lot every 3rd attack (W Passive) and a dog called Nasus that has 10%\15%\20% life steal and a ninja called Shen that can heal with his Q. Kha'zix, Renekton, Rengar and many others that can heal a lot better than Garen (Most of them not even from a passive but ability) and still don't use Mana and can stay in lane CSing and healing.

What are my suggestions as a very big Garen fan and player?
-Reduce Cooldown and Increase healing. (Simple as That)

Do I even need to mention that recently you nerfed two of his main items (Sunfire and Visage) and soon will nerf even Dorna's Shield?

Garen might have been strong when he first released but as the game progressed, he didn't progress with it. He is outclassed and outshined by so many other champions which makes him unplayable and useless at many points.

Please RIOT, Buff Garen. For Demacia!!!!

ShadowNinetailsFeb 9, 20141 votes

Few things: 1. With the free CDR you can get from masteries, runes, and maybe an early Brutalizer, your ult should be up pretty quickly compared to several others I can think of. 2. You don't really need Ult to kill as Garen. You just need good trading (mostly with Judgement) and the ability to catch the opponent off guard (which is actually more likely if they know your Ult is on CD). 3. You can CS with your passive on as long as your opponent doesn't land a hit. Only enemy champion, tower, and neutral monster damage turns it off, not minions. If you can bully the other guy out of lane and show him that he can't trade with you, CSing while you heal is easy. Also, yes Mundo's passive regen is always on, but he also pays health for his spells so there is a significant give and take there. The others you named all heal from attacks/spells and, therefore, put themselves at risk not only by leaving themselves open for attack, but by also pushing the lane leaving themselves open to ganks so there again is significant give and take. 4. The Sunfire change was needed. Yes it's one of my favorite items, but that was needed. Same goes for Visage because there was and still is literally no reason for me to not buy it which is the same issue we had with FoN (R.I.P. my love).

Honestly I'd say Garen's one of the strongest top laners around and I predict that he'll see moderate to heavy LCS play if/when Renekton takes one or two nerfs.

Vic BossFeb 9, 20141 votes

Well:
1- Even with the Cooldown reduction, the CD of the Ult is so high. In Mastries I have the 5% CD Reduction. (That's 8s) I don't use CD Reduction in Runes for obvious reasons. The Bruatalizer gives 10% CD Reduction (That's 16s) so at most the Lv1 Ult will be 136s with 15% CD Reduction which is still so high for a single target low range ult.

2-As I said, you can kill without ult but its extremely uncommon. In case you don't know Garen's damage comes mostly from 2 abilities which are the Q and E. Once those 2 are on cooldown, Garen can't do a thing. His Basic Attacks are rather weak to keep fighting. During that time the enemy will mostly recall or keep a large distance from you or heal up. Don't forget that you'll also take damage during the attack.

3- Of course you can but what if your fighting a very well skilled summoner and knows what he's doing? All it takes is 1 harass every 10s to stop his passive completely. So many games I've fought (for an example) Nidalee top. Half them don't poke and the other half does. It's easy to poke on Garen and those who do not are (Unskilled most likely) so I'm talking about High Lv players when they know stuff like that, it's not easy to be in lane CSing and keeping the Passive on at the same time. Why so much headache to keep a Passive on that doesn't even heal much? As for other champions, they can use their ability as last hit and not push the minions. Do you really think Last Hitting with Shen's Q will push the Lane? It's like having Garen Q that heals.

4- The point about the Item Nerfing is that Garen keeps getting weaker and weaker as the game keeps changing not in his favor. With those nerfs basically garen got 'weaker' even more.

Garen is strong if he's on the right hands. But lets say, if someone mastered all champions like 100% he's super god in playing the game with all champions, he'll probably never use Garen as top as he is outshines and outclassed by so many others.

For Justice, for Demacia!!!

ShadowNinetailsFeb 9, 20141 votes

Ok let's run down some CDs of other top laners:

Aatrox: 100s

Cho'Gath: 60s - He NEEDS to be able to build and rebuild stacks quickly)

Darius: 100s - I dislike comparing Darius to Garen to be honest because their play patterns are quite different really. He has no real way to mitigate damage and only has one other spell that does noticeable damage. On top of that he must be MUCH more lenient with his spell usage because of his mana puddle.

Dr. Mundo: 75s - Like Cho, Mundo's ult is needed for him to be functional

Fiora: 130s - Probably the best ult to compare to Garen's as they share a lot of the same play patterns despite her being focused more on offense and aa's rather than Garen being focused on defense and spells. They even have similar passives. While she's still mana-restrained, it's not nearly as much as Darius. She also doesn't necessarily need her ult to deal significant damage.

Gangplank: 120s - Another one who absolutely doesn't need his ult to make plays.

Irelia: 60s - The damage from Transcendent Blades is meh at best without items (Sheen procs specifically). Most of the time, Irel's just using it to heal, push a wave, or output damage into a fight she can't dive into.

Kennen: 120s - Needed for teamfights, but not for 1v1 or 2v2 encounters.

Malph: 130s - See Kennen

Nasus: 120s - See Kennen. NOBODY that's ever played as Nasus nor against a good one thinks his ult's damage is what makes him threatening.

Olaf: 120s - See Kennen

Panth: 150s - See Kennen

Poppy: 140s - See Kennen

Renek: 120s - See Kennen/Nasus

Rengar: 140s - See Kennen

Riven: 110s - Another one that's good to compare to Garen, but Blade of the Exile has multiple use cases aside from the execute (you can use the AD amp to increase the strength of your shield if you're about to take a heavy burst of damage). Being honest, I'm afraid adding things like CC to Demacian Justice to increase it's use cases would make him more like her in a weird way.

Rumble: 105s - See Kennen. Also skillshots deserve to have lower CDs because there's a chance that they do nothing for you.

Shen: 200s - See Kennen

Singed: 100s - See Kennen

Tryndamere: 110s - Comparing him to Garen wouldn't so much be used to give Demacian Justice a lower CD as much as give Undying Rage a higher CD.

Vlad: 150s - See Kennen/Nasus

Wukong: 120s - See Kennen

Xin: 120s - imo Crescent Sweep has never been in a good place. It's an ult that does damage based on current HP, so it should be used when they're as full as possible, but I still constantly see it used as a finisher. When used for its CC, that's perfectly understandable, though.

Yorick: 120s - Ugh. I don't even want to talk about the mess that is Yorick.

Conclusion: Yes Garen's ult could possibly use a CD buff at lvl 1, but there would have to be some tradeoffs because there is no situation where you can 1v1 a lvl 6 Garen when you're low. With Darius, he can be oom. Fiora's ult doesn't do inordinate dmg in itself against one target and she can be oom. Riven and Rumble can miss. Garen doesn't have any of these concerns. There's no counterplay involved with it and that's why his CD has to be so high.

Knight DevoutFeb 16, 20141 votes

I agree with the damage AoE as a possible buff, but rather than making it a proc-on-kill, I'd make it a costant proc, but in a small AoE.

Garen theme is that of the valiant knight/paladin, he's not one that gets stronger or more furious from spilling blood. However, a small AoE, as a punishing blaze on the enemy that tries to evade garen by using his comrades as a shield, is fitting lore-wise and gameplay wise. if the damage was to be calculated as the damage on the main target applied on a smaller percentage to nearby enemies, it wouldn't generate confusion: his best case scenario would always be on a low-health enemy, and waiting for enemy to group up would just be a risk that the Garen player has to take into account (not much harder than the decision between waiting for more damage before ulting or ulting faster but risking to miss the death blow).