Put aside your opinion on the new lore. Put aside your opinion of the old lore. Put aside how you feel about the Institute, the champions, and the League itself.
Can we at least all agree that straight up retconning that much content probably isn't the best move?
TerraRising9 votesThe retcon idea isn't the issue.
Everything surrounding the retcon is complete failure, starting from the horrible decision to not involve the fans in the decision process to the criminally slow speed in releasing revamped or new content.
No excuses should be accepted, either. The Narrative & Foundations departments should have had their shit together before announcing this. Also, the people in charge should have been willing to stick around, personal issues aside, and finish their jobs.
Dreamspitter1 votesThe retcon idea isn't the issue.
Everything surrounding the retcon is complete failure, starting from the horrible decision to not involve the fans in the decision process to the criminally slow speed in releasing revamped or new content.
No excuses should be accepted, either. The Narrative & Foundations departments should have had their shit together before announcing this. Also, the people in charge should have been willing to stick around, personal issues aside, and finish their jobs.
#Tom Abernathy SAID he wanted to spend time with his family.
I dont KNOW that's the real reason.
TerraRising4 votes#Tom Abernathy SAID he wanted to spend time with his family.
I dont KNOW that's the real reason.
#I CAN DO THAT, TOO!
Seriously, I have no idea if that guy was telling the truth in his tweet. Right now, I'm not in a position to believe anything any Rioter says, especially one associated with Narrative.
brusque8 votesCan we at least all agree that straight up retconning that much content probably isn't the best move?
We can't agree on this, because the playing field is way too divided on the issue. However, we can agree that the retcon happened in a way that didn't involve the community. And we can also agree that such an action is counter to calling oneself community-focused.
SecretAgentHulk1 votesWas going to post something snarky about how of course we can't agree, but I like this better.
brusque1 votesNested replies what? I did not c u thur
BlazinHot67 votesWhoever they hired as their marketing consultant is who messed this whole thing up. Part of the blame can also be placed on their lore team. With the completely revamped map plus all these changes, just call it League of Legends 2. They made this transition so much harder than it needed to be. Not only that, but they blew a chance at being able to market something new. It all comes back to the adage: Dont fix something that isnt broken. Especially when there are things that are broken and need to be fixed.
Dreamspitter1 votesWhoever they hired as their marketing consultant is who messed this whole thing up. Part of the blame can also be placed on their lore team. With the completely revamped map plus all these changes, just call it League of Legends 2. They made this transition so much harder than it needed to be. Not only that, but they blew a chance at being able to market something new. It all comes back to the adage: Dont fix something that isnt broken. Especially when there are things that are broken and need to be fixed.
Question is
Do you patch and force folks to play League of Legends 2 or.....................
Do you still support the old version?
It also isnt enough content for a LoL2 because people would expect more than lore and a new map, but fully upgraded roster with full reworks and VU's on everyone.
EDIT: as I recall REDS/devs at some point when they started this new map business said they would never make a LoL2, but simply keep upgrading the game.
DOTA2 became what it was because it was a mod, and then became a game unto itself in addition to having to clean up IP issues from Warcraft names/etc.
Diahane6 votesRetcons to me are just a poor way to do storytelling. What you release in a narrative series, whatever the media, is a fact, you can't erase nor tweak what was shown explicitly. This is my stance on how storytelling should be done and I am no authority of course. But this is the exact reason why I shun getting myself involved in "unreliable" titles like renown comic series from Marvel and DC. Had I known this would happen to LoL, I wouldn't have bothered myself with its lore from the start. The call was obviously up to Riot and I do not question it, but even putting aside my conceptual hate for retcons I firmly state that the whole thing was managed in the worst possible way.
CupcakeTrap5 votesThis is especially true when a community has arisen around the material, and has spent years creating community lore based upon it.
It was massively disrespectful of Narrative to demolish the foundations of so much hard work and creativity on the part of "its" community. As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing they can do now that will make up for that.
It's time we stopped begging at their feet. We've hit rock bottom. It's time to build the lore back up ourselves.
GenoXx1 votesThis is what I suggested a long time ago in the Lore Forums. That the community could bring lore with a better presentation. At that time people didn't like the idea....But im sure your going to inspire some people.....
Diahane1 votesThis is especially true when a community has arisen around the material, and has spent years creating community lore based upon it.
It was massively disrespectful of Narrative to demolish the foundations of so much hard work and creativity on the part of "its" community. As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing they can do now that will make up for that.
It's time we stopped begging at their feet. We've hit rock bottom. It's time to build the lore back up ourselves.
I agree with you, but I can't accept as sole solution the development of lore through the fans' work. I love this game and I'd like for it to have a good canon story. If it comes to having to resort to fanon (I don't intend the term to be demeaning of Faction's work, I intend it in its literal sense of "unofficial canon established by the community") to get a good story for the game, I'd rather leave the game. It would mean that the game doesn't fit my game choosing criteria. A game with a canon story I do not enjoy is something I don't want to play, even if I knew (and in this case I do) that there'd be a well developed fanon worthy of being followed. I want references in-game to the story, I want immersion when I play and fanon can't do that because it has no power over game content and it's a game I'm looking for. I want a mix of story and gameplay from my videogames, that's why to me is no solution to develop an alternative story for LoL.
P.S: Keep up the good work for all though, of course! You have my most sincere cheers for your endeavour.
Dreamspitter1 votesRetcons to me are just a poor way to do storytelling. What you release in a narrative series, whatever the media, is a fact, you can't erase nor tweak what was shown explicitly. This is my stance on how storytelling should be done and I am no authority of course. But this is the exact reason why I shun getting myself involved in "unreliable" titles like renown comic series from Marvel and DC. Had I known this would happen to LoL, I wouldn't have bothered myself with its lore from the start. The call was obviously up to Riot and I do not question it, but even putting aside my conceptual hate for retcons I firmly state that the whole thing was managed in the worst possible way.
Yeah but it's a nature of the comic medium.
You can start the hell over.
But honestly would preffered they did some huge event like M-Day, Crisis on Infinite Earths, Civil War/etc and destroyed the League and even killed some characters off (Teemo).
Diahane1 votesRetcons to me are just a poor way to do storytelling. What you release in a narrative series, whatever the media, is a fact, you can't erase nor tweak what was shown explicitly. This is my stance on how storytelling should be done and I am no authority of course. But this is the exact reason why I shun getting myself involved in "unreliable" titles like renown comic series from Marvel and DC. Had I known this would happen to LoL, I wouldn't have bothered myself with its lore from the start. The call was obviously up to Riot and I do not question it, but even putting aside my conceptual hate for retcons I firmly state that the whole thing was managed in the worst possible way.
Yeah but it's a nature of the comic medium.
You can start the hell over.
But honestly would preffered they did some huge event like M-Day, Crisis on Infinite Earths, Civil War/etc and destroyed the League and even killed some characters off (Teemo).
I disagree, it's not a nature of the medium itself, plenty of comics have gone through their lives without ever seeing a retcon. Mangas, for instance, just die out usually, with no retcons to reboot them into popularity. It's just that we don't seem to be able to accept that stories must end after all. It's one of the reasons I don't follow Marvel nor DC: their titles never end. There's a beginning, but there's no end, there is no grand final, there is no final at all. Progression too is more bound to different artists taking the job for that period of time than to the character him/her/it-self.
I prefer one thousand times more a short story faithful to itself and its characters than a long running series about the same character in different contexts just because people can't let go of him/her/it. Yeah, Batman is cool, he's the definition of cool in some sense, but I'd rather have had a world in which he had a single story going from a beginning to a definitive end than all the wealth of stand alone stories he's gone through, with the eventual retcons here and there.
Dreamspitter1 votesRetcons to me are just a poor way to do storytelling. What you release in a narrative series, whatever the media, is a fact, you can't erase nor tweak what was shown explicitly. This is my stance on how storytelling should be done and I am no authority of course. But this is the exact reason why I shun getting myself involved in "unreliable" titles like renown comic series from Marvel and DC. Had I known this would happen to LoL, I wouldn't have bothered myself with its lore from the start. The call was obviously up to Riot and I do not question it, but even putting aside my conceptual hate for retcons I firmly state that the whole thing was managed in the worst possible way.
Yeah but it's a nature of the comic medium.
You can start the hell over.
But honestly would preffered they did some huge event like M-Day, Crisis on Infinite Earths, Civil War/etc and destroyed the League and even killed some characters off (Teemo).
I disagree, it's not a nature of the medium itself, plenty of comics have gone through their lives without ever seeing a retcon. Mangas, for instance, just die out usually, with no retcons to reboot them into popularity. It's just that we don't seem to be able to accept that stories must end after all. It's one of the reasons I don't follow Marvel nor DC: their titles never end. There's a beginning, but there's no end, there is no grand final, there is no final at all. Progression too is more bound to different artists taking the job for that period of time than to the character him/her/it-self.
I prefer one thousand times more a short story faithful to itself and its characters than a long running series about the same character in different contexts just because people can't let go of him/her/it. Yeah, Batman is cool, he's the definition of cool in some sense, but I'd rather have had a world in which he had a single story going from a beginning to a definitive end than all the wealth of stand alone stories he's gone through, with the eventual retcons here and there.
I never enjoyed something for the end of the story -albeit a bad end can make the whole thing a bad story. Much like life I dont go seeking closure, or the end but rather...all the things between there and the beginning. If you ask people of certain religions, you will find for some people that life does in fact start over and over and over and over -with the caveat that there can in fact be an end and each telling has influence on their next one.
As for Marvel/DC stories DO have Endings and Beginnings.
#But what if another writer wants to tell their OWN story with the character?
Another beginning, another take, another perspective. Although once we know a character well enough, you dont have to start from the origin story unless you're doing something different there.
Basically all the retcons are, is a story revolving around the same character being told again but in a different way. And the best stories of all time do get told again. But the latter guy whose telling it wants to bring a little bit of himself, and his own influence to it.
Diahane1 votesI never enjoyed something for the end of the story -albeit a bad end can make the whole thing a bad story. Much like life I dont go seeking closure, or the end but rather...all the things between there and the beginning. If you ask people of certain religions, you will find for some people that life does in fact start over and over and over and over -with the caveat that there can in fact be an end and each telling has influence on their next one.
As for Marvel/DC stories DO have Endings and Beginnings.
They have arcs which have beginnings and endings, but you get no closure, it's all always open, characters don't age as they should and it all ends up being like in a vacuum. Just imagine the Lords of the Rings as a comics series. We would have gotten no ending, we would indefinitely be getting the fellowship of the ring going around middle earth. We may have gotten some arcs, like the Moria mines one, done, with a clear beginning and a clear ending, but we wouldn't ever have gotten the ring destroyed and Sauron defeated once and for all. We wouldn't have gotten Frodo sailing away with the elves. They would still be there, after decades, bringing that ring around.
About the religious perspective, even if all is cyclic we experience consciously only a part of the cycle at a time. It's like when you describe a circle in cartesian coordinates, you have to cut it in branches and you must treat a branch at a time, though you know it's a full circle. So, even if life as a whole were cyclic, the single lives we experience are not, so this is no reason to have stories be endless and with the same characters.
#But what if another writer wants to tell their OWN story with the character?
Another beginning, another take, another perspective. Although once we know a character well enough, you dont have to start from the origin story unless you're doing something different there.
Basically all the retcons are, is a story revolving around the same character being told again but in a different way. And the best stories of all time do get told again. But the latter guy whose telling it wants to bring a little bit of himself, and his own influence to it.
I don't like this kind of story telling. If someone's a writer and wants to tell a story, he/she should do one which is entirely his/hers. This is the reason why I shun movies like the recent Hercules or Snow White: they don't even bother being original, they just try to sell me a product I have already bought. They're just the product of a marketing strategy aimed at getting the most broad audience interested in a consumable product. How do you get millions of people into a movie theatre year after year? You sell them something they are familiar with but with a different take. So you get those who liked the core theme and the other ones who are just there because of popular culture telling them it could be cool. I won't settle for an old soup heated again and made fancier through marketing, I want original content, I want new stories with new characters. If a writer, movie director or whatever can't do neither, he won't get my money, that's it for me. You want to do a tragic love story? You better get creative rather than revisiting Romeo and Juliet. Seriously, we all know that one. Ok, people have liked it throughout history - can we move on now, please? That's what I'd like to tell those doing this kind of things.
Going back to comics, to me it's the same thing: you want to tell a story? Create your characters and do it. Don't take already established characters for it. Or, if you have to, find a place and time for the story to be coherent with the character's previous narration and have the story and character progression be coherent with it too. Turns out this way you can't actually do anything really interesting, because all real progression is handled in the original story of the character and this is why you should have done your original story to start with.
This is obviously just my opinion on the matter.
Dreamspitter1 votesI never enjoyed something for the end of the story -albeit a bad end can make the whole thing a bad story. Much like life I dont go seeking closure, or the end but rather...all the things between there and the beginning. If you ask people of certain religions, you will find for some people that life does in fact start over and over and over and over -with the caveat that there can in fact be an end and each telling has influence on their next one.
As for Marvel/DC stories DO have Endings and Beginnings.
They have arcs which have beginnings and endings, but you get no closure, it's all always open, characters don't age as they should and it all ends up being like in a vacuum. Just imagine the Lords of the Rings as a comics series. We would have gotten no ending, we would indefinitely be getting the fellowship of the ring going around middle earth. We may have gotten some arcs, like the Moria mines one, done, with a clear beginning and a clear ending, but we wouldn't ever have gotten the ring destroyed and Sauron defeated once and for all. We wouldn't have gotten Frodo sailing away with the elves. They would still be there, after decades, bringing that ring around.
No, Sauron et all would probably be a long arc/saga unto itself.
Random thought: look at the bible.
The new testament seems to wrap up neatly doesnt it? But wait a minute
#"Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."-John 21:12
I mean it sort of acknowledges there's room for people to tell more stories.
#That aside Tolkien started a book, The New Shadow
He abandoned writing it, but as the trope goes "What Could Have Been".
Whether it was a right decision or not, we'll never know. Here was his own opinion.
"I did begin a story placed about 100 years after the Downfall, but it proved both sinister and depressing. Since we are dealing with Men, it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless — while the dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and governors — like Denethor or worse. I found that even so early there was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret Satanistic religion ; while Gondorian boys were playing at being Orcs and going around doing damage. I could have written a 'thriller' about the plot and its discovery and overthrow — but it would have been just that. Not worth doing."
―The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 256
I never enjoyed something for the end of the story -albeit a bad end can make the whole thing a bad story. Much like life I dont go seeking closure, or the end but rather...all the things between there and the beginning. If you ask people of certain religions, you will find for some people that life does in fact start over and over and over and over -with the caveat that there can in fact be an end and each telling has influence on their next one.
As for Marvel/DC stories DO have Endings and Beginnings.
They have arcs which have beginnings and endings, but you get no closure, it's all always open, characters don't age as they should and it all ends up being like in a vacuum. Just imagine the Lords of the Rings as a comics series. We would have gotten no ending, we would indefinitely be getting the fellowship of the ring going around middle earth. We may have gotten some arcs, like the Moria mines one, done, with a clear beginning and a clear ending, but we wouldn't ever have gotten the ring destroyed and Sauron defeated once and for all. We wouldn't have gotten Frodo sailing away with the elves. They would still be there, after decades, bringing that ring around.
No, Sauron et all would probably be a long arc/saga unto itself.
Random thought: look at the bible.
The new testament seems to wrap up neatly doesnt it? But wait a minute
#"Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."-John 21:12
I mean it sort of acknowledges there's room for people to tell more stories.
#That aside Tolkien started a book, The New Shadow
He abandoned writing it, but as the trope goes "What Could Have Been".
Whether it was a right decision or not, we'll never know. Here was his own opinion.
"I did begin a story placed about 100 years after the Downfall, but it proved both sinister and depressing. Since we are dealing with Men, it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless — while the dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and governors — like Denethor or worse. I found that even so early there was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret Satanistic religion ; while Gondorian boys were playing at being Orcs and going around doing damage. I could have written a 'thriller' about the plot and its discovery and overthrow — but it would have been just that. Not worth doing."―The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 256
Bible apart, which I don't feel like discussing because I'm averse to religion and I may result offensive to someone without intending to be so, I think that you misunderstood me on the Tolkien example. What you point out is that there could have been a sequel with Middle Earth as its setting and that it could've been interesting. I do not disagree. But that would have been a sequel, that is to say a new story. We may of course argue semantics and say it would have been an arc in the story of Middle Earth, but that would miss the point of my argument. Such a thing I'd define as a new story and I'd regard the Lord of the Rings' one as concluded in the previous trilogy. The story about the Fellowship of the Ring began and ended, just like the story about Bilbo began and ended in The Hobbit. If some writer went and wrote the story Tolkien didn't want to write about what happens hundreds of years after, that would be different from said writer going and retconning the Lord of the Rings, and writing about the Fellowship of the Ring doing things they did not in the original series or doing not things they did. I'm open to new content, by this meaning content that does not overwrite nor erase the previously released one.
Imperial Red4 votesI don't think it was a bad call at all. They wanted to completely reset their story and get more creative with it all rather than have the entire world decide, "Lets settle our disputes with one big game using 5 people for each side instead of just having awesome, all out, war." and since pretty much everyone was controlled by the summoners employed by the institute, they didn't want something powerful enough to destroy it completely. So they just retconned it. Like when Superman gets to the point where there's literally nothing to stop him anymore without even more power inflation. It just had to be done.
brusque4 votesLike when Superman gets to the point where there's literally nothing to stop him anymore without even more power inflation. It just had to be done.
I personally feel that your argument here is a little weak. When a character like Superman gets to the point where there's literally nothing to stop him anymore, the answer is not to inflate his powers further. The answer is also not to retcon Superman. The answer is to create a story that accommodates for a reduction in Superman's powers in a way that gives him more depth.
GenoXx4 votesYou know,...even though they said to expand the world....Shurima Retcon was still centered around champions..... Not even a grain of sand about the Shuriman Empire was explained...
Shíny5 votesNah man we learned that the shurima empire has pools of deus ex machina water conveniently placed everywhere.
disregardable3 votesNope, I don't see an inherent problem with retconning.
PhoenixSlayer132 votesCare to expand on why?
Keevalroy2 votesAs has been stated, the retcon itself wasn't an entirely bad idea, the way it was handled was an abysmal failure. The problem that arose was Narrative just kept going full-speed in a straight line, oblivious to the scenery around them.
Sharjo2 votesI had to pick the last option because I'm the guy who's like "Stuff has advantages and disadvantages." Mainly because the playable race and storylines I care about most in World of Warcraft were born from a retcon. Honestly I just want more story, and if they have to retcon stuff they percieve as bollocks, then I'll decide, case by case, what I think of it.
PhoenixSlayer132 votesFrom what I can see so far, most people see retcons as not inherently bad, but the way Riot has handled it is very frustrating. I'm inclined to agree.
Ninpire1 votescan someone give me a link so i can read it
i dont know where to look on the website
im sorry im a lazy american
Frikgeek1 votesI really don't care. I mean, old lores will always be up on wikis for everyone to read. As far as I'm concerned the new lore is an AU or a reboot. I'm always going to see Karthus as a mysterious lich rather than a guy who just really liked death, and I still prefer Trundle's old lore. This isn't just a retcon, it's a complete rewrite, giving the story guys a clean slate they can work with. I just hope they do something interesting with it.